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LEGAL VIEW WITH ASHLEIGH BANFIELD
Mali Plane Crash; CNN Freelancer Abducted; Ukrainian Resignations; Identification Process of Remains Begins in Netherlands for Flight 17 Victims; Ukrainian Crash Scene May Have Been Purposefully Contaminated by Pro-Russian Rebels
Aired July 24, 2014 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good afternoon, everyone. I'm Anderson Cooper. It is Thursday, July 24th. We begin this hour with breaking news.
Another commercial airliner lost in a conflict zone. One hundred sixteen people were on board a twin-engine jet operated by Algeria's national airline and bound for the capital of Algiers. Flight 5717 fell off the radar less than an hour after taking off from the West African nation of Burkina Faso. Now, hours later, the airline reported the plane has apparently crashed in neighboring Mali, where government troops have battled insurgents for two and a half years.
It is not at all clear that hostilities had anything to do with what happened. We simply do not know. At this point we don't even have reports on casualties.
We do know the plane is an MD-83 built by McDonnell Douglas sometime in the late '80s to mid-'90s and owned by the Spanish company Swiftair. CNN's Al Goodman joins me now from Madrid. Meteorologist Chad Myers is in the CNN Weather Center. CNN safety analyst and former air accident investigator David Soucie joins me here in New York.
Al, what more do we know about the flight and the people on board?
AL GOODMAN, CNN MADRID BUREAU CHIEF: The airport that it took off from, Anderson, the capital of Burkina Faso, that airport's website, the Ouagadougou website, says that French forces stationed in Mali detected the crash in a desert area with difficult access between a couple towns in Mali. Now, there were reports earlier in the day citing African diplomats by news reporters in Africa that said that the plane, which was going from Burkina Faso up to Algeria, it should have been a straight shot about three hours north, had to divert because of bad weather in the area, and that's when they lost contact about one hour after it took off.
Also, on the people on board, conflicting figures. One hundred and sixteen is the number that we've heard, including crew, but it may be as high as 119. A number of nationalities, about 50 French. We've got French officials in Paris saying clearly there were a lot of French citizens on board. Some number from Burkina Faso, five Canadians, four Germans, and others from Lebanon and from various countries in Africa and in Europe. But right now the effort is trying to find them. It appears that the coordination, Anderson, is being done by authorities in Algeria, which is where the plane was going.
Anderson.
COOPER: Chad, let's talk about the weather, what it was like over West Africa when the crash occurred. Again, we do not know what may have caused this crash. But as Al was mentioning, flight was diverted due to weather. So what was the situation?
CHAD MYERS, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Flying right through what meteorologists call the Intertropical Convergence Zone, the ITCZ. It's where hurricanes form. We talk about hurricanes coming off the African coast and into the Atlantic Ocean. This is the zone that those storms form. And one cell right there north of the airport, probably 200 miles north of the airport, was right in the way of this airline as it flew through. We knew it tried to divert around this weather right there.
We'll zoom right into you. Look at the size of that cell right there, just south of Gao. We're talking about not just one thunderstorm but a complex of thunderstorms all acting together. A mesocyclone, a Mesoscale convective complex, you might call it here in America, where storms all kind of feed on each other, not just one cell but a series of cells in a big circle as this plane tried to fly through it or around it.
COOPER: How -- Chad, I mean, pardon my ignorance on this, but I mean how difficult would -- how difficult a system is that? How violent a system are we talking about?
MYERS: We know, years past, where other airplanes actually have had such turbulence through the ITCZ that injuries have happened on the plane due to that turbulence. So this is a very volatile up and down area. Remember, too, this was 2:00 GMT. About 2:00 in the morning local time. So it's very dark. And so, you know, there's radar. There should be a radar to show you how big the cell is. But if it's 40 miles in each direction, sometimes -- and at this point 40,000 feet tall, the plane's going to have to go around that. It's just almost like a fortress that the plane's going to have to go around. And it did request to change direction, to change locations around this cell. And that's when the last contact was made.
COOPER: The FAA, obviously, considers this area high risk for U.S. airlines. I want to read you what they have said. "There is risk to the safety of U.S. civil flights operating into, out of, within or over Mali from small arms rocket-propelled grenades, rockets and mortars and anti-aircraft fire to include shoulder-fired, man-portable air defense systems."
David Soucie, clearly not all airlines, though, you know - I mean -
DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: Yes.
COOPER: The FAA doesn't have any sway over international carriers at all. SOUCIE: No, they're not a U.S. certificated aircraft other than to fly
into the United States and out of the United States, one stop. So this - and this particular flight was all within that country and within the African nation, at least, and across those countries.
Now, Mali is a very war-torn area right now and does have all these armaments that we talked about with MH17. But now this is where it's interesting. It also says in this NOTAM, that if you do intend to fly below 24,000 feet, you have to obtain weapons information, which I haven't really seen before in a NOTAM.
COOPER: Also, obviously, Algeria has been an area of conflict for -
SOUCIE: Yes.
COOPER: For a great amount of time. So clearly this is an airline used to, you know, screening passengers -
SOUCIE: Yes.
COOPER: Used to security procedures. The safety record of this aircraft, the MD-80 (ph), what do we know?
SOUCIE: This is like the tractor, the back -- one of the backbones of the aviation community in commercial airlines. This aircraft's been flying forever. McDonnell Douglas built a good airplane. They designed a good airplane. And it is -- has worked for a lot of years. It's an older aircraft. It hasn't been manufactured since the '90s, but it is a good aircraft and they do have a fairly decent safety record with this airline.
COOPER: OK. And again, the bottom line is, we do not know what caused this crash.
SOUCIE: We have no idea.
COOPER: We don't want to make any assumptions at this point. We're trying to find out more information. We'll obviously bring that to you as soon as we can. David's going to stick around.
Al Goodman, Chad Myers, thanks very much.
More victims of MH17 are returning home or beginning the journey home as investigators try to determine what happened to their plane.
Also, a journalist working the story for CNN in Ukraine has been kidnapped. We'll get the latest on efforts to get him released, ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Hey, welcome back.
A new look today at the destruction and devastation from Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 downing. These images sent to us just a short time ago from the European organization that is monitoring the area. You're looking at what may be the largest intact piece of the plane that investigators have spotted thus far. This as even more victims are flown to the Netherlands. Dozens more caskets arrived today, welcomed in a somber ceremony conducted beautifully by the Dutch military. Investigators in Ukraine say they don't know if all remains have been found. The last scheduled flight carrying remains is planned for tomorrow.
Pro-Russian separatists have kidnapped a Ukrainian journalist working as a freelancer for CNN. Anton Skiba was abducted Tuesday evening outside a hotel in the separatist controlled city of Donetsk. He had just returned from a day of work at the crash site. Senior international correspondent Ivan Watson is live from Donetsk, Ukraine.
What do we know about this? How did it happen, Ivan?
IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's part of a bigger trend. The Committee to Protect Journalists say abductions and detentions of journalists are happening at dizzying speed here in Eastern Ukraine and Anton Skiba is one of those examples. Our team returned from the crash site Tuesday evening and there was a group of armed separatists, led by a leader of the self-declared People's -- Donetsk People's Republic waiting just outside the door of our hotel here. They took Anton Skiba, who had been working as a translator for us for all of one day, called him a terrorist, and took him away in a car.
And we haven't heard from him certainly throughout the day today. Separatist officials have not given us any updates about him whatsoever. The Committee to Protect Journalists, Reporters Without Borders, the United Nations have all come out publicly calling for this young man to be released, Anderson.
COOPER: For our viewers who don't realize, often we use - we work with local journalists when we arrive in a place to help us get around, to help us get access, to talk to people, to interview people. When was the last we heard from him? Would - did -- has there been any word from him at all?
WATSON: His phone's off. I just tried calling it. We got a brief call from him yesterday. He was able to say he was OK. He was being interrogated at the headquarters of the separatists' security building. And then the phone line basically went off. And we don't know whether that phone call was made under duress. So, of course, we're concerned about this young man.
In addition to that, other people are disappearing. You know, there's a British reporter by the name of Graham Phillips (ph), who reports for the Moscow-based TV network "Russia Today." He's gone missing since Tuesday night from the outskirts of Donetsk. He was reportedly covering battles taking place there. And his network has accused Ukrainian government troops of taking him. And the Committee to Protect Journalists says at least 10 foreign correspondents have been detained by separatists in this region who since Malaysian Air Flight 17 went down, these are reporters who have come in, like us, to report on the aftermath of that terrible disaster.
COOPER: Ivan, please be careful, you and your team. We'll continue to follow this.
Another sign of the turmoil and conflict between Russia and Ukraine, the Ukrainian prime minister and cabinet have now resigned. I want to go right to Sara Sidner live to Kiev, Ukraine.
Can you explain why they've resigned? How this whole system works there.
SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean basically the government has been dissolved. The prime minister resigned, as you mentioned, as did his cabinet. This is all happening, though, as a part of a promise that the president made during the May elections, saying that the entire process, we need to do this and push out some of the people that are in there and give the electorate the chance to do that. You have to remember that some of the folks that are in parliament right now are still linked to the ousted prime minister, and they say, look, let's give the people a chance to clear things out and do this democratically.
However, this may seem like really bad timing to the outside world for all of this political turmoil to happen because, of course, this country is also involved in a major way with the investigation into the downed Malaysian airlines flight, as well, of course, as the major conflict that is going on in the east with pro-Russian rebels. And now they're going to be dealing with a whole lot of politics. But the good thing is, Anderson, that those who are in place to try to keep stability will remain in their positions as, for example, the acting prime minister and the cabinet members will stay in their positions to deal with the daily workings of government.
But still, there's going to be elections. And you know what that does to those who are in power. They have to go out. They have to campaign during what is really a crisis for this country. A two-pronged crisis, if you will.
Anderson.
COOPER: Yes. Yes. Sara Sidner from Kiev. Sara, appreciate it.
Families of those who died on MH17 are seeing their loved ones brought to the Netherlands. The Dutch honoring their memories while trying to identify the victims. We'll talk to -- get perspective from one of those family members ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: We won't soon forget the images that we've been showing you from the Netherlands. I don't think anybody will who watched any yesterday or even today, as Dutch soldiers carried the caskets of the victims of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17. It has been extraordinarily moving.
And today, yet again, a remarkable sign of the dignity being shown to the people who lost their lives in the crash. More planes, these carrying 74 caskets, touched down today at a military base in Eindhoven. It's the first step of a long journey home. Family members of those who perished don't even know that these coffins are carrying their loved ones. None of us know who is in these coffins. They may not find out for months. The remains of their sons and daughters, husbands and wives may still be at the crash site in Ukraine.
Haroen Calehr joins me now from the airport in Amsterdam. He lost two of his nephews to Flight 17, 10-year-old Miguel and his 19-year-old brother Shaka.
Haroen, thank you so much again for being with us. We spoke with you yesterday. To be there as a family and to see the outpouring of support and dignity and love that we have witnessed over the last two days in the Netherlands, what is it like to be there in this horrible time of grief?
Haroen, it's Anderson Cooper. Can you hear me?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Definitely nothing.
COOPER: We're clearly having a hard time hearing Haroen.
Sanjay Gupta is also there in the Netherlands. He is outside. He's outside -- he's in the town of Hilversum, outside the facility where investigators are already starting the difficult task of examining those who returned yesterday. Sanjay joins us now.
Sanjay, what's the latest on this whole process?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, right about 4:00 local time, they had a moment of silence here. That was when the airplanes landed. You may have seen some of that, Anderson.
It's somber here, as you might imagine. There's flowers. There's people paying their respects. We don't know if they're family members here or just members of the community. It's a small country, and it seems everyone's been affected here.
But what's happening here is this military base behind me has become sort of the home for 75 investigators who represent many countries around the world, all of whom had passengers on this plane, and they're starting this, as you said, very grim process of trying to identify these remains.
Some of it is very basic, talking to families, finding out what clothes were being worn, jewelry, any characteristic body tattoos or marks, anything else. but then also, things like dental records and medical records and finally DNA analysis. That's part of what's going to be happening here.
I talked to some of the folks on the ground. They say it's already started. Obviously they're waiting for more of these remains to come now from the airport. They're going to make their way right through this area here behind me within the next couple of hours.
That gives you an idea, sort of, of what's happening. And they're going to be here for some time, Anderson.
COOPER: There really is no timetable for this. I mean, not only are there still maybe as many as 98 to 100 people still in fields in eastern Ukraine, but we simply don't know the condition of those who have returned and will be returned over the coming days.
So there's no real time line for this, is there?
GUPTA: No, there's not. And forensic examiners will tell you, look, we don't want to rush these things. The worst possible thing is that some sort of error is made.
And errors have happened in the past in these sorts of situations, so they've got to be very careful, very methodical. They've got to confirm and then reconfirm things before they start to release this information.
And also, to your point, because of this concern about contamination out in the field, when you're doing DNA analysis, for example, if you have contaminated samples, all of a sudden you may not know exactly what you're dealing with.
Was this a sample from another person on the plane? Are we looking at DNA from somebody who just happened to go to that area afterward? What exactly are we seeing here, and how do we piece it all together?
There are lots of different pieces to the puzzle. But again, they start basic with things that are easily noticeable and then start to get more -- move it further and further out to really hone in on the details.
COOPER: Sanjay, I just talked to a priest earlier today from our program tonight from Hilversum, and he was telling us it's a town of 85,000 people. They have lost three entire families, entire families gone. Three homes are now empty in Hilversum. Thirteen people in all have died from that town.
I mean, the impact on that community is extraordinary, and it's good to have you there, and I appreciate you being with us. We'll talk to you more throughout the day and evening. Sanjay, thank you very much.
Certainly there's a lot more we want to cover. We're going to go back when we can to Haroen. We'll talk -- I'm told he is actually back. Haroen Calehr is joining us from the airport.
Haroen, it's Anderson Cooper. Can you hear me? Yeah, apparently not. We're going to take a short break. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: It's been called one of the world's biggest crime scenes, and there's concerns it has been contaminated. For days pro-Russian rebels had unfettered access where Malaysia Airlines flight crashed. They still do.
One British security source tells CNN rebels have talked about moving the victims, handing off the black boxes to Russia, even scattering parts of other aircraft onto the site.
We'll discuss the investigation with CNN safety analyst David Soucie. Also joining us, CNN military analyst Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona.
Colonel, what's your assessment, first of all, of what the source has been telling CNN, the idea that they had talked about giving black boxes over to Russia? Obviously, the fact that rebels had full access to the scene, we have no idea how contaminated it is.
LIEUTENANT COLONEL RICK FRANCONA (RETIRED), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes. I think the rebels are smart enough to understand that the forensic evidence is not going to convict them. All it shows is an aircraft went down and what happened to the aircraft, what happened in flight, what happened to the physical evidence. But it doesn't show who actually did it.
COOPER: The only thing that can do that really besides signals intelligence, if there is any or voice recordings, is human intelligence, interviews with locals.
FRANCONA: Exactly.
COOPER: Who may have actually seen something.
FRANCONA: And signal intelligence in a normal boot configuration, you would have signals going back and forth between the different units, but since this was operated, we believe, in a standalone mode, there would be almost no communications.
We'll have to rely on eyewitness accounts, and that has to be gathered either by a criminal investigation which doesn't look likely or actual human intelligence where we can recruit somebody that was on scene.
COOPER: You know, David Soucie, we all think now that, well, OK, that somehow there are international investigators on site. I talked to Ivan Watson who was out at the crash site yesterday. He said there was really nobody there.
There's OSCE observers, but they're not investigators. They're not even there to deal with finding more of the bodies of the victims out there. There's really not much of anybody out there right now with cadaver dogs searching at the very least for the remains of those who are still out there.
DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: It was incredibly disturbing to see Ivan out there walking through there. There was not anyone around.
And I've been studying these photographs since it started. You look at the scene compared to how it was the first day, it's significantly different. You can see large pieces missing. There's straight cuts which you never see at an accident site. These were straight cuts made by saws, straight cuts made by equipment and then moved around.
