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LEGAL VIEW WITH ASHLEIGH BANFIELD

Dutch Pay Respect to MH 17 Victims

Aired July 23, 2014 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


RICHARD QUEST, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: The level of expertise now need in Ukraine is at a much higher standard, because you're talking, now, about requiring shoulder to shoulder, fingertip investigation of this crash site, which would be happening in any decent environment, but that of course is not possible at the moment. So we just continue to hope and pray.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: And there is information about the black boxes, Richard.

QUEST: There is, the black boxes have now been opened or at least the cockpit voice recorder has been received by the British authorities. It was damaged, but the memory module's intact. There is no evidence of -- indication of manipulation. A successful download has occurred. It got data. It's now being analyzed. So we have the cockpit voice recorder, investigators have that information.

COOPER: That of course will be analyzed in the United Kingdom. It is the Netherlands who will be handling this far more human side of this tragedy, dealing with the families, dealing with the victims.

Again, that process is something which -- there is no timeline on it. It's going to be extraordinarily difficult in some cases. In some cases, it may be very easy, given the condition of some of the victims. In other cases, this may be a very, very arduous process.

Again, stopped traffic now, people just pulling their cars over, the sheer number of people who have turned out to welcome these strangers home, not knowing, as Richard pointed out, the nationalities of the people in those coffins, whether they are from the Netherlands, as many of the victims are, whether they're from Malaysia, Indonesia, Canada or elsewhere.

It is a day of mourning in the Netherlands, frankly, in many communities around the world.

We're going to take another quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: And welcome back. If you're just joining us, you are bearing witness to the beginning of a journey home for 40 people, 40 people killed in MH-17.

They're en route to Hilversum in the Netherlands where authorities are waiting to begin the arduous process of identifying their remains, identifying the bodies, identifying the men and the women, the children, the infants, so that they can be returned to their families, to their loved ones, many of whom are in the Netherlands, waiting.

If you are just joining us, you will be moved, no doubt, by the tens of thousands of people, there you see some of them on the overpass, on the sides of the highway, people who have taken part in this day of mourning in the Netherlands to receive these victims, these people, and pay their really expects on the first leg of their journey home.

I'm joined by our Richard Quest and Fareed Zakaria as well as we watch these extraordinary images.

Let's just listen as they approach this overpass, as people in many cases applaud. Some stand silently.

Seems like they have stopped here for a moment.

Fareed, it is an extraordinary sense of community to see how the Netherlands is doing this. And they're doing just an extraordinary job of bringing these people on this first leg of their journey home.

ZAKARIA: You know, the Dutch are a very -- they're a sort of quiet people. They're somewhat stoic, but you have to remember, it's a deep, deep sense of community.

These are people who've gathered together, who have grouped together to fight the sea for 500 years, and that sense of community is very deeply in place.

COOPER: Flowers, they were really moving -- that's why they had stopped. They've moved flowers to the side of the road. We've seen people in these overpasses, Richard, over the last 40 minutes or so throwing flowers, applauding, bringing teddy bears.

QUEST: It's interesting, following from what Fareed says, national day of mourning is not the norm. It's not usual in the Netherlands.

So the fact that the prime minister and the king and the queen have declared today to be this national day of mourning, the fact that their majesties were at the airport, along with the foreign ministers of all the major countries -- of all the countries concerned speaks volumes.

And I suspect, of course, they will be there again tomorrow when the next families and friends are on the first stage home. And it is just the first stage, because identification will take days, weeks, months, and then they have to be repatriated, what a word, to their home countries.

People throwing flowers from the bridges, which has become so symbolic on these funeral corteges on these situations.

ZAKARIA: You also see -- one can't help but be struck by beauty of the country. You're seeing one of the most beautiful countries in the world. The Dutch countryside is this flat, gorgeous, green countryside. And to think of this incredibly sad procession going through those beautiful fields and canals ...

COOPER: It is also such a stark contrast to the horror that we have witnessed not just in the downing of this aircraft and -- but the horror of what has happened since, the horror of the days and the nights of these people left out in the sun and the elements, having rings taken off their fingers, having children's toys played with by rebel soldiers.

In many cases, in some cases, we did see villagers, local villagers, in eastern Ukraine bringing flowers, bringing photographs of victims and laying them to rest and trying to do what they could for the victims.

But, again, they weren't in control of the site, it was these pro- Russian rebels, and the horror of that contrasted to the beauty of these images and the solemn procession, and just the extraordinary dignity of the response.

QUEST: The Dutch foreign minister, Frans Timmermans, spoke beautifully and eloquently before the U.N. Security Council.

And he really summed it up when he said, to his dying day he'll never understand how people could have treated the victims like this, how they could have been left, how they could have refused access to those who could have allowed them their final moment of dignity.

COOPER: And there you see some of those. Let's listen as -- we've heard in some cases people applauding. Others just stand and watch. Some take pictures.

I think people just want to be there and be part of this day and part of this moment. And, again, the first of many such moments in the difficult days ahead.

We're going to continue to show you these images and stay with this procession en route to Hilversum in the Netherlands, but as we do, I had the honor yesterday of speaking with a man who lost two of his nephews on Malaysian Airlines Flight 17.

It's a family where they had three sons. One of them didn't make it on the flight. But Miguel and Shaka Panduwinata did. They were 19 and 11. They were supposed to meet their grandmother for a holiday in Bali, something they'd been looking forward to.

Their other brother, Mika, had to catch a later flight because Flight 17 was fully booked.

This morning, Chris Cuomo talked with the boy's family outside the airport in Amsterdam as they awaited for news of their loved ones.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST, "NEW DAY": I'm standing right now with the Calehr family. This is Haroen, this is Samira, and this is Yasmine.

Haroen's two nephews were lost on Flight MH17. This is their mother. This is their grandmother.

Behind you, all these flowers and notes of expressing condolences and praying for the souls of those who are gone, the travelers who are coming by. You know this is all for you and for your nephews, yes?

HAROEN CALEHR, UNCLE OF MH-17 PASSENGER: Yes. It's the first time I've seen it, and it's just too poignant to look at it. I was just choking up. I couldn't stand it.

CUOMO: How difficult has this been to lose the little ones, to lose the one you care about the most and in a way where they were not only far away but everything that followed afterwards? How have you managed to stay together, family?

H. CALEHR: I don't know honestly, Chris. I think it's the adrenaline. I mean, it's just indescribable. We're all in a haze, we're so numb, we're so sad, and, of course, we keep thinking about the most important thing how much the kids suffered. Just hope it was all over very quickly.

CUOMO: Samira, I don't even want you to have to talk. I know you want to be here to support your boys. I'm sorry to talk about how they were gone.

I'm sorry, I know this is difficult for you. I don't want them to be forgotten. I want people to know how special boys were, so it's not just about politics, OK? So I'm sorry you have to be here and, Haroen, I appreciate you speaking for them.

H. CALEHR: Absolutely.

CUOMO: Tell us about these boys. I know they were special.

H. CALEHR: Of course, like every victim on that flight was special for their family. But, truly, they were very hardworking boys, they're good in school, they're very helpful to their family. They've been a pillar to her. She's been separated from her house for four years.

She was a single mom. They had just come to the Netherlands for the last four years, so it was a new country, a new life.

It was, you know, everything was new, and they had never lived on their own in Europe before, so it was very difficult, but they were just tremendously good boys.

CUOMO: And there are two things I want to see if they are actually true. Is it true that the young one started talking about flying and being worried and what might happen and that your family believed he may have sensed something coming? Is that true?

H.CALEHR: Yes. You know, whether you want to call it a premonition or whatever, the eerie thing was that right before getting on the flight after going through passport control, and he ran back to his mom and my sister standing next to me, and he said, what's going to happen if the plane is going to crash and die, I'm afraid to fly.

And she said, don't worry. You've flown so many times before on your open. You know, you've been an unaccompanied minor on many flights before. You'll be safe. Your big brother is there. Everything is going to be fine.

He said, you know, what's going to happen if I die, and what if God asks me a question, what should I tell him? And so, you know, now that you think back on it, it's just incredibly sad and I wish we had been able to stop him from getting on the flight.

CUOMO: Oh, you can't do that.

H. CALEHR: I know. I know.

CUOMO: You can't do that. Samira, I hope you're not doing that. You know that kids say things all the time. It means something now, but, please, don't put yourself there. That's not fair to you. And it is true there's a third boy and there was no seat available on this flight otherwise he would have been on it also.

H. CALEHR: Correct.

CUOMO: But he wasn't. He's home. He's safe.

H. CALEHR: He's safe. He's home. But he's, of course, devastated. And we're very worried about him. He's 16 years old and he lost two of his best friends.

CUOMO: Now, I know one of the reasons that it's important for you to speak for your family is because of what happened after this completely wrong act of taking this plane out of the sky, the disrespect, the indignity, how it's being treated there by these militants. I was there and there's no question that the scene is terrible. But I will tell you, people were doing their best to be respectful. Not so much the militants. That's just the truth. But people were trying to say prayers, people were trying to look after what was going on there, to keep a little bit, a little bit of dignity. There should have been a lot. It should have been like this from the beginning. They should have been home a long time ago. But what does that mean to you that not only were their lives taken so wrongfully, but everything that happened afterwards?

H. CALEHR: That's probably the biggest insult -- you know, adding insult to injury. I mean I understand that this is a war zone and there's a lot of animosity between the parties, but these people behaved like animals. I mean our kids and the 296 other victims, they were not part and parcel of this horrible war that's going on over there. They had nothing to do with this. They're innocent parties. And it's sacrilegious what was going on with their remains and they should have been treated more respectfully.

CUOMO: How are you handling or preparing to handle the idea of whether your boys come back now because they don't know exactly who they have, they don't know if people are still there or are just undiscovered as of yet? Do you prepare for that? H. CALEHR: That's what we pray for, that at least we'll have something

to hold onto, something to put in a grave. Preferably, obviously, a body, not just a limb. And it was very graphic the way the forensic police that has been very, very supportive of us when they took a DNA swab yesterday morning of my sister, but they were very frank and they said, you know, we may not discover them in time. We may just get a limb. What do you want us to do? Do you want to put him in a grave or do you want to wait until we find both boys. So it was just too much to bear sometimes.

CUOMO: The practicalities can be the most horrible part of dealing with something like this. I can only imagine. But I know you believe they are not just their body anyway.

H. CALEHR: Right.

CUOMO: And now the question that dominates the world, but I know means the least to you in some respects, does it matter who did this? Does it matter if it was intentional or if it was an accident? Does it matter if it was just militants or Russia or Ukraine? How much does that matter to you, those answers?

H. CALEHR: They matter to me quite a bit. I think both the militants, both Russia and Malaysia Airlines, they're all to blame in one way or another. And everybody ultimately will have to pay the price and be responsible, be held responsible, either legally -- either financially, either from a religious standpoint of view. But we're not out for revenge, you know, but it's just the right thing to do, that they should pay for their -- their crimes, their deeds. And this is a terrorist act. It's a criminal act that the area where the plane -- the crash site, it's a crime scene. It should have been secured more safely. And it wasn't.

CUOMO: And it still should be. And we're doing all we can to give attention to that.

Harun, I am sorry to meet you this way. I really am. I really am.

H. CALEHR: Thank you so much. So am I. I appreciate it though.

CUOMO: Samira, our heart goes out to you. I'm so sorry for what you have lost. And, Yasmine.

YASMINE CALEHR, VICTIMS' GRANDMOTHER: Thank you. And thanks CNN to show the world what never should have been shown. It's not just us. It is people crying every minute for the same reasons we are crying. I don't know where humanity is going, but when I see you and everybody and the flowers, there's always hope. And we have to move on. I don't know how, but we have to because they were incredible kids. I just told you, they were just incredible. We never knew how many lives they touched until now. We thought it was just us, but it's amazing. So they haven't lived for nothing and I thank all of you to try to help us through this process.

(END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: The grandmother who lost two of her grandsons on board flight MH17 saying, we thought it was just us, we thought we were alone in our grief, that it was just our family, just the families of the other victims. But as you see from the images near Hilversum, in the Netherlands, it is not just the families of the victims who are feeling a sense of loss, who are feeling their hearts ripped out. It is the people of the Netherlands. It is people from all around the world who are watching, who are taking this time to pause. And what they are doing, and we've seen them on the highway overpasses. We have seen them line the highways all along the route as 40 hearses continue on their journey, the beginning of a homecoming for 40 people.

There are many more. There will be many more journeys like this. Many more processions of hearses. Many more transport planes coming in with coffins carried solemnly into hearses. And then the long, difficult process of trying to identify those remains.

Richard Quest mentioned, the Dutch foreign minister, who spoke at the United Nations the other day, one of the other things, extraordinary things he said, and I'm not even sure I can repeat it --

QUEST: No.

COOPER: Because I just found it -- it's just something that has truly stayed with me a lot over last several days. He was extraordinary in recounting what he has been thinking about, about the final moments of these people on board this flight.

QUEST: He gave voice to the thought that we have all had. He gave voice when he said in those final moments did they, people on board, look at each other? Did they say silent good-byes? Did they hold hands? Did they know what was happening? And no matter which way we look at this, that is the thought that is with us and with those people watching now.

COOPER: I'm here with Fareed Zakaria as well, who is -- it is rare that the global community can stop and witness an event like this and take part in an event like this. And I think it's the horror of this tragedy, not just again the incident itself, but the way these people were treated over the days subsequently that really has brought the international community together to want to give these people dignity, to want to stand by the side of this road and welcome these people on the first start of their journey home.

FAREED ZAKARIA, ANCHOR, CNN'S "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS": Well, and you've realized just how much there is a global community when you look at that family that Chris was talking to, right? The uncle is from -- lives in Houston. They are apparently -- probably have some immigrant background from the names. They're in the Netherlands. They were taking a flight to Malaysia. That -- you know, it's a sense in which everyone can identify. I mean, I have to say, as somebody with kids, to watch something like that is -- it's almost unwatchable. But you -- everyone can relate in some way to what happened here because it really was part of this emerging global community. And so it's not really just a story about the Netherlands, it's a story about all of us. COOPER: We've avoided using the word in this hour, the word -- a word

I personally just think is a made-up word, a TV word, the word "closure," which you hear often on television in a case like this, people talking about, well, this will give the families of the victims closure. There is no such thing in grief. There is no time line for grief. There is no time line for suffering. The wounds may be covered up over time, but they will always remain for the families of all those on board this flight. Their lives will be forever changed. But at least they will start to get some answers in the weeks and the months and perhaps even years ahead.

And when you talk to family members, they want to know. I mean some of them don't, but many of them -- and I talked to Mary Schiavo, who deals with family members of victims of tragedy, they want to know what their loved ones went through. They want to know the details. As horrible as they may be at times, they want to know what happened.

QUEST: They want -- they want honesty. They want to understand because only when they understand, again, I'm not using the word closure, but only when they understand -- the word you're looking for, Anderson, is "acceptance," because it is only when they receive acceptance can they finally move on. And that may be days, weeks, months, maybe never in the case of some people.

ZAKARIA: Well, I think for parents, you cannot imagine that you could ever move on. You've, you know, you live, you continue to live, but I think your life is permanently altered. I -- I mean I hate to --

COOPER: Without a doubt, yes. I -- my, you know, brother committed suicide and my mom -- in fact, the anniversary of his death was yesterday. And, yes, you know, it's something that never goes away, obviously. And certainly for my mom, for any parent, it's something that you never get over.

QUEST: And we've heard the statement this morning from the family in Australia, which of course lost three children who were flying back on 17 with their grandparents. The family had gone ahead. The grandfather was bringing them back. The three children a day later. The family says their hell is like no other hell now. And they remind us that their pain is not a story as they seek for this moment of privacy to grieve. And that is a -- that is a moment that has been reflected 288, 298 times, multiplied by brothers and sisters, parents, grandparents, friends, colleagues of everybody would was on board. It was not just 300 people. It is multiplied by a factor of ten at least.

ZAKARIA: And, remember, this is a small country. So when you talk about, you know, it's the Netherlands is 16 million people. You talk about almost 200 dead. That's -- that's -- strangely, it's about the same proportionate terms as died in New York on 9/11, it's about 4,000 people, if this were happening in America.

COOPER: And look, again, the outpouring of people who have probably waited, in many cases, for hours for -- and I don't want to use the word strangers, because I think in an event like this, that the -- those who are returning don't feel like strangers. We feel like we know them. We've learned the names of many victims. We -- some of them we don't -- we know their stories. We know the children who were traveling together to go on vacation to Bali, to visit relatives for a family reunion in Indonesia, to go to Kuala Lumpur for a trip for their family members, a long-awaited family trip.

Again, the procession stops at times because people have thrown flowers on to the highway. And for the motorcycle riders, that can cause issues. So they stop to pick up the flowers. Not with any anger. But they understand people want to express their love, their emotions at a time like this.

QUEST: And if I may just read some of the statement from the Masalin (ph) family that was released this morning. I've just found it. It's a message to the soldiers in the Ukraine, the politicians, the media, our family and friends. "Our pain is intense and relentless. We live in a life beyond hell. Our babies are not with us. We need to live with this act of horror every day and every moment for the rest of our lives. No one deserves what we are going through, not even the people who shot our whole family out of the sky. No hate in this world is as strong as the love we have for our children. No hate in this world is as strong as the love we have for our granddad. We would ask everyone to remember this when you're making any decisions that affect us and the victims of this horror."

COOPER: Joining us on the phone, again, as we continue to pay our respects, is Harun Calehr, who's lost two members of his family on board this flight.

Harun, it's Anderson Cooper. Can you hear me?

HARUN CALEHR, UNCLE OF TWO MH17 VICTIMS (via telephone): Yes, Anderson, I can hear you fine. Thank you.

COOPER: Thank you so much for joining us in your time of grief. Tell us about your nephews.

CALEHR: Well, they were wonderful kids. There are two -- they were 19- year-old Shaka (ph) and 11-year-old Miguel (ph). And we were at a very moving ceremony at an air force base here in the Netherlands about an hour and a half away from Amsterdam. And the arrival of the 60 coffins, it was extremely emotional. And all the dignitaries were there, the king and queen, and the prime minister and some other government officials and lots of family members. So, yes, it was not closure yet, but it was still, you know, very moving for all of us.

COOPER: Harun, you and I have spoke several days ago. Your whole family has gathered. And we just -- we saw an interview you did with Chris Cuomo earlier this morning. I know you have been in touch with authorities there. Have you been getting -- I mean, the Netherlands, it seems, really has -- there's been this outpouring of emotion. Have they been -- have you been happy with the way you have been dealt with, the way they have handled this on your end? It's an extraordinarily difficult task.