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@THISHOUR WITH BERMAN AND MICHAELA

FAA Under Pressure After Tel Aviv Flight Ban; Interview with Sen. Dan Coats; CNN Anchor and RT Reporter Argue on Air; Potential Next Steps Regarding Russia

Aired July 23, 2014 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Will the FAA lift its ban on U.S. flights to and from Israel, or will planes be ordered to continue to avoid Ben Gurion International Airport. A decision could come soon.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): A somber ceremony. You are looking at live pictures right now honoring those who died in a war that they weren't even fighting. @ THISHOUR, some of the victims of Flight 17 return home to a nation in mourning.

PEREIRA: As the bodies of the victims arrive in the Netherlands, the black boxes, meanwhile, have arrived in the United Kingdom. Could they hold clues? And could they bring an end to this blame game?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PEREIRA (on camera): Good morning to you. I'm Michaela Pereira.

BERMAN (on camera): And I'm John Berman. Its 11:00 am in the East, its 8:00 am out West.

I want to show you right now live pictures again. This is Eindhoven in the Netherlands right now. This is the air field where some of the victims of the Flight 17 disaster, tragedy, crime, whatever you want to call it, are now returning to the Netherlands in a very dignified, very poignant ceremony there that's been going on for some time. We're going to keep our eye on this and watch it throughout the hour. These bodies now being placed in hearses. They're going to drive about an hour away to another town, a town called Habersham, where they will be processed. The bodies will examined and then returned to the families who have been waiting for them now for much, much too long.

PEREIRA: 192 Dutch citizens lost in that downed flight. A nation in mourning, to be sure.

BERMAN: Other news @THISHOUR, the FAA is under pressure after a very controversial decision. In the next few hours, maybe in fact the next few minutes, FAA officials will decide whether to lift a ban to U.S. flights to Israeli's main airport, the Ben Gurion International Airport near Tel Aviv. PEREIRA: Bother the FAA and the European Aviation Safety Agency

ordered flight suspensions yesterday after a rocket fired from Gaza hit about a mile from that airport. Now, despite the flight ban, Secretary of State John Kerry flew into Tel Aviv on a military plane. He's in the region trying to broker a cease-fire. Our Martin Savidge is standing by at Ben Gurion Airport. Martin, good to have you with us. We know this is a very busy international airport, but given the FAA suspension, I'm curious what the scene is on the ground right now, what you're seeing there.

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's significantly different than what you would see on a typical, normal day. This is the departure terminal of Ben Gurion, and it's pretty quiet out there. There are a few aircraft. Most of the ones that, if you can see them behind me, they are domestic Israeli flights. There was a British Airways flight, a large one that took off just a short while ago, but otherwise, the international carriers you have not really seen them, except for El Al of course which is the national carrier of Israel. They are flying and they will fly, they say, no matter what.

Delta Airlines, for instance, continues to say that it is not flying here to Tel Aviv. Lufthansa just, once again, reiterated that for the next 24 hours its not going to be coming in here. Some airlines are not even waiting until they get some sort of government announcement. They're making the decisions on their own. Israel is saying that, wait a minute, this airport is safe. The airplanes can arrive here.

Let me just show you guys something really quick here. As you look out on the runway, just beyond me, and you push past the apron and then push past the runways themselves, those apartment buildings over there, that's Yehud and that is the area where the rocket came yesterday. If you are in a jumbo jet, if you're a major airline, flying people and responsible for their safety, that would be a little too close for comfort. Israel does have a missile defense system, its called the Iron Dome. It is 90 percent effective. That is amazingly successful, but its that 10 percent that could lead to disaster and, after MH-17, many airlines don't want to take the risk. John and Michaela.

BERMAN: Martin, Israel none too happy about this decision as you say and there are a lot of Americans who aren't particularly happy with it either. New York's former mayor Michael Bloomberg on a flight right now to the airport where you are to demonstrate that he feels that flying in and out of Israel is safe.

SAVIDGE: It is. He's coming here, its anticipated that when he gets here he's going to proclaim, just as he did before he took off, that he believes that this is a fine time to come to Israel. It's a safe time to travel. That's what Israel maintains here, is that if you are punishing someone, it should be Hamas, because that's who they say launched the rocket. That's the one who has fired over 2,000 rockets from Gaza, so in essence they feel that Israel is being punished for what was a terroristic act that was carried out against them. This has hurt them financially, it certainly hurts the prestige.

To try to help, the government here has opened up Ovda Airport. That is way to the south, in fact its about three hours from here by car, but it's seen as an option so that if there are international carriers not comfortable landing here, they could land there and be well out of any rockets coming from Gaza.

BERMAN: Again, the FAA decision whether to rescind this flight ban could come, really, with any minute. Certainly within the hour at this point. Martin Savidge at Ben Gurion Airport. Thanks to you.

PEREIRA: Now we want to turn to the developments with the Malaysia Airlines disaster. The first bodies of the victims arriving in the Netherlands a short time ago.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

BERMAN (voice-over): As the people in that nation mourn, their government getting to work. The Dutch Safety Board has taken charge of the investigation and put together an international team to look into the downing, the shoot down of Flight 17. The flight data and cockpit voice recorders, the black boxes that we all know so well, which could bring answers. They are now in Britain. The British government also saying that new intelligence shows a surface-to-air missile was launched from a part of Eastern Ukraine under rebel control seconds before Flight 17 crashed. While this is happening, the investigation, the fighting rages in that region. Ukrainian officials say that two military jets, two of their military jets were shot down today.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PEREIRA: We want to talk about more of this national day of mourning in the Netherlands. The first, I believe, in that nation since the 1960s, when they lost their queen. Our Chris Cuomo is at Schipol Airport near Amsterdam.

Chris, you've been doing some really moving reporting, talking to some of the families who tragically lost members, their loved ones, people that they loved so dearly. It's hard to believe there would be a dry eye in that entire nation. A small nation. Only 16 million people in the Netherlands.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: It's small, but I think that it's a place that is not known for big outward displays of emotion, so that on a day like today, as you mentioned, not since 1962, when they lost their queen, have they had a national day of mourning. There were thousands of people here in front of Schipol Airport. Schipol's significant because this is where MH-17 started its journey from this airport. There was not an utterance during the moment of silence here. There are rows and rows of flowers. You'll see these people, many of them are in transit. A lot of them aren't, though. They're just here putting down flowers. Yes, Holland is known for tulips, but these flowers are far more significant than just their beauty.

The messages, the poignance of it, the memories. I think something that we took away are really the two different faces of humanity. You see whether or not there's culpability involved, on which part in Eastern Ukraine. The complete disrespect, the lack of dignity, the disregard for the crime scene and for the bodies, and now the world knows all about that. Here, the solemnity, the dignity, the quiet, the people coming together in a time of need.

There's something very powerful in that as well. Just as the destructive power of what happened in Easter Ukraine. However, it's just the beginning for these families now. We don't know which bodies these are. We don't know if they are all the bodies and how long it takes to be identified. I mean, this is very difficult for people, especially when the answers, for many of them, may still lie in that field in Eastern Ukraine that is not under control and has been traipsed through by so many different people. So there's a long way to go for these people to get healing, but today at least it's a start.

BERMAN: It was an absolutely beautiful ceremony, arresting in many ways. Chris, you couldn't help but to be sort of taken aback by the silence and nature of the whole thing. But as you say, just the beginning. There will be more bodies returning. They will have to be processed. Chris, I'm wondering if you can talk about the attitude of the people in the Netherlands now. What are they asking of their leadership in terms of Russia? What do they want to see done now after 198 of their countrymen were killed?

CUOMO: I think you used the word there arresting, it's a perfect word, John, and I think the word for the answer to your question is probably reserve, caution, patience. Why? Why would those words apply? They should be thinking about vengeance and answers and accountability. Because they are worried about getting all the bodies first. That's what I was told from a forensic expert, to people who are here, to a government representative. We don't know if we have everybody yet. We don't want to go starting more trouble before we get all of our loved ones and we have to maintain relationships over there in order to get to the scene and get access and do forensic search, so they are actually asking for restraint which I think is a tremendous show of character on the part of the Dutch.

PEREIRA: Absolutely. When you add to it the fact that the investigators are going to take quite a while to be able to do the forensic examination and I.D. these bodies, there's a very long process ahead of them. A long process in terms of healing. Chris Cuomo, we appreciate you so much. Thank for your great work there on the ground.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN Ahead for us @THISHOUR, so we heard why the Netherlands may be showing restraint now, but how about the rest of Europe? Why do they seem so scared of Russia? What will take for these nations to now take a stand? A key U.S. Senator weighs in.

PEREIRA: Then, should President Obama be out fundraising in the west while two crises rage overseas? We'll look at that.

BERMAN: Plus, it is the hash tag and in some ways it is taking over social media. If only it could take over sentiment on the ground as well. That's ahead @THISHOUR.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PEREIRA: Today, some of the remains of victims of Flight 17 are being repatriated, this after the victim's bodies and remains were unceremoniously left for days in the very field that plane went down.

BERMAN: And as the world in some ways grieves for the families and friends of those lost on Flight 17, world outrage grows over the senseless killing of 298 souls. But Indiana Senator Dan Coats says it is now time for much more than just outrage.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. DAN COATS (R), INDIANA: This is a moment when action must follow the outrage and rhetorical condemnation. The tragedy of Malaysia Air 17 will be, I believe, a defining event in history. The Malaysia Air Flight 17 reveals to any remaining doubters the nature of Putin's and his brutal ambitions and ruthlessness.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PEREIRA: Senator Coats also said it is time for the civilized world to make the choice crystal clear for Russian president Vladimir Putin to de-escalate the situation in Ukraine. He accused the Russian President of imperial ambitions motivated by pathological insecurities.

BERMAN: Senator Dan Coats joins us now from Capitol Hill.

Senator, you really come at this from two areas of expertise. You are on the intelligence committee in the senate right now. Presumably, you have seen evidence that the rest of us are not privy to about what involvement Russia may or may not have had, direct involvement in this tragedy. You are also ambassador to Germany, so you have lived in the shadow of the new Russian nation. So at this point, what would you like to see happen?

COATS: I would like to see the world unite, in particularly the United States and the European Union, led by our President, led by chancellor Merkel of Germany, the most important country there is Europe, imposing a crippling sanctions on the Russians if they do not stand down and pull back from this, acknowledge their complicity in this tragedy and stand down from what they are doing in Ukraine. I think Putin needs a very clear choice. Either do this or we will slap crippling economic sanctions on your country and it will hurt all Russians.

PEREIRA: Those crippling economic sanctions on his country would likely have a crippling effect on many of the European countries and they are showing some great reluctance on their part to go along with these, sort of, harsh -- sort of? Decidedly harsh sanctions against Russia. We can talk about energy and economic dependence. How do you navigate that? You know this very well from being the ambassador to Germany. How do you navigate that and get agreement on all parts of the European Union? COATS: Well you ask the European nations to take a look back at their

history. If you allow a bully, if you allow a despot continue leash, in terms of doing what they are doing, you are going to pay much steeper and harder price later. So why not do it now? Why not get to the point right now, because you are going to pay a big price as the Russian dog takes ever bigger bites out of eastern Europe. Whether is it the Baltic's, whether it is Poland, whether it is a number of border states that belong in the European Union. They may be next on the list.

BERMAN: But they seem to be willing to let this happen, at least so far. These European leaders have been meeting this week. They have had the opportunity to make big, bold statements. Do you think this is the moment of truth for the German chancellor Angela Merkel? She clearly, perhaps, the most crucial leader in that region.

COATS: Well, you are correct on that. She grew up behind the iron curtain and she knows the Russian, and speaks Russian fluently. Knows it better than anybody else. She has to understand what is at risk here, and I think she needs to take the lead, and if Germany takes the lead and we work with them, we've been pretty timid ourselves here in terms of what's coming out of the White House and the President's rhetoric, not followed by real strong action. If we take the lead together, I think we can address this issue and make, as I said, Putin give a very clear choice as to what he wants the future of Russia to be relative to what we can do.

PEREIRA: Senator, while we have you, I wonder if you take a moment to comment on this situation that we've been watching in Israel, on the FAA ban on flights to and from Israel. The former mayor of New York, Michael Bloomberg said that these restrictions are a mistake and essentially amount to an undeserved victory for Hamas. How do you view it?

COATS: Well, I view it is that there's a risk here and we ought to be cognizant of that. Obviously, there's been adjustments made in planes flying across Ukraine given the instability that exists there in eastern Ukraine and the tragic consequence of their firing a missile at Malaysian Air 17. But I leave that to the authorities and Israelis and others to determine and, of course, our U.S. airlines, to determine whether it is safe to go in there. Israelis provide great protection and I leave it to those experts to make that determination.

BERMAN: Senator Dan Coats from Indiana. Thank you so much for with us. Appreciate your insight, your expertise on this subject as this crisis unfolds in front of the entire world.

Ahead for us @THISHOUR, the blame game. As accusations, they get more complicated by the day about who is really behind the shooting down of Flight 17.

PEREIRA: Also a different kind of blame game. Our Chris Cuomo gets caught in, kind of, a heated interview with an English language Russian anchor. That's coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BERMAN: Emotions running very high over the take down of Flight 17,

outrage, anger, grief, condemnation, particularly over the treatment of the crash site for so many days. But, no condemnation about that specifically from Russia. And CNN's "NEW DAY" anchor Chris Cuomo ask an anchor for Russia's state-run television network, RT, why?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CUOMO: Why are you afraid to hear what I'm saying? I'm not here to fight with you, OK?

LAVELLE: I'm not afraid! I would like you --

CUOMO: The last thing I want to see is more violence of any kind, verbal or otherwise.

LAVELLE: I would like you to ask the U.S. government to release all of its data from satellites and compare it to the Russian's.

CUOMO: They are doing exactly that.

LAVELLE: See where there they matches, where they don't match.

No, they're not!

CUOMO: Peter --

LAVELLE: You're living in a parallel universe.

CUOMO: Peter, Peter, calm down. Take a breath. We've already had something bad happen. There's no need to compound it. You are speaking --

LAVELLE: Ask me an intelligent question. Ask me an intelligent question.

CUOMO: Peter, well, I think I've asked you several. Your answers, I don't know about the intelligence of, but the questions are pretty spot on.

Let me ask you again, because I'm not a representative of the U.S. You seem to be acting like a representative of Russia. And what I asked you is why hasn't Russia come forward --

LAVELLE: Great. Character assassination.

CUOMO: -- and condemned the indignity and disgrace of this crime scene?

LAVELLE: So you went to character assassination in what,? Five minutes, that's what you did.

CUOMO: France has done it, the U.K. has done it. The U.S. has done it. None of them have sovereign control over Ukraine. Countless countries have come forward. The U.N. has come forward and condemned what was done at this crime scene, but not Russia specifically. Not Vladimir Putin specifically.

LAVELLE: And Vladimir Putin has come out for a thorough investigation. You're wrong, you're just simply factually wrong.

CUOMO: He did not condemn what's going on.

LAVELLE: He has come out and said there should be an investigation.

CUOMO: Why hasn't he condemned what was done?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PEREIRA: Things also getting more intense and more complicated. The finger pointing between Russia, Ukraine, pro-Russian separatists, the United States, Europe, over who is to blame for the shooting down of Flight 17. We want to bring in John Herpst, he is the former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine.

Sir, thank you so much for joining us. Perhaps you can cut through the noise because of your experience as the former ambassador there, and cut through in a way that we can't. I want you to give us an idea of how to cut through this noise. How and when, or do you think if, we'll get to the truth here?

JOHN HERBST, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE: I think we already have the truth. The evidence that has been presented publicly, from various sources, point very clearly to the plane being shot down either by the pro Russian separatists, who are actually Russian led or Russian manned or the Russians themselves. We have the defense minister of the People's Republic of Donetsk, Colonle Girkin, who is a Russian Colonel, celebrating on a social media site that they shot down a Ukrainian transport plane at the same time the Malaysian airliner was shot down. That was also reported on Russian media, but that was all removed after it became clear it was an airliner. We have a Russian Lieutenant Colonel Bezler caught on a transcript, saying that the shot down a plane.

So the evidence points decisively toward the Russian led and the Russian manned separatists. Now the Kremlin, of course, and of course, the separatists controlled the site and they removed critical pieces of evidence and which might have pointed -- which given hard evidence of their responsibility. So, of course, Russian TV, which is a propaganda channel for Mr. Putin is saying something else.

Let's remember just two weeks ago, Mr. Putin praised the talents of Joseph Goebbels, the great nazi propagandist. So Russian TV is kind of a joke, they are not journalist, they are propagandists.

BERMAN: So the question then becomes, to the U.S. and the rest of the world, what to do about this? Just a short time ago on CNN senator Lindsey Graham was talking to Carol Costello. He said, I want the Russian people to feel pain in response to the pain they have caused. My question to you is, does Vladimir Putin respond, or would he respond, to any pain amongst his people?

HERBST: We don't know for certain, and I don't think the goal should be to punish Russian people. The goal should be to punish Mr. Putin, and I think that Mr. Putin should be forced to choose between having a viable economy and destabilizing Ukraine.

I think Europe has been very weak on sanctions and Mr. Putin has counted on that. But if Europe were to join us with the strong sanctions we made last Wednesday, and perhaps the two of us together, the E.U. and the United States, were to target the Russian financial sector, the financial sector of their economy, Mr. Putin would have a serious choice to make between the economic stability of his country and aggression in Ukraine, and that's what our policy should be.

You also mentioned you don't want to punish the Russian people themselves, but all of those things that you mentioned there are going to have a direct impact on the Russian people and not necessarily on Russian Putin, maybe his ego but not on his reality.

It would certainly have an impact on him because he would be unable to sustain his policies if his economy is crashing. Unfortunately, others in Russia would also suffer, but that would perhaps change Putin's mind. Our policy should not be to impose sanctions on Putin, we should also provide military assistance to the Ukrainian armed forces, anti tank weaponry, and weaponry that can take out these sophisticated missiles which were used today to shoot down two fighter jets, after the shooting down of the Malaysian plane last week. We should battalions there and sophisticated aircraft and tell the Russians those forces are going to remain not far from their doorstep until they stop their aggression in Ukraine.

You bring some substantive suggestions there, former ambassador to the Ukraine, John Herbst. Thanks so much for join us.

Coming up next, just moments ago, former New York mayor Michael Bloomberg arrives in Tel Aviv. This to show his solidarity. Is that FAA ban a victory for Hamas?

And Flight 17 black boxes arrive in the U.K and are handed over to investigators. How long before they get the key information off of them that.

(COMMERCIAL BERAK)