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LEGAL VIEW WITH ASHLEIGH BANFIELD

Obama: Evidence Points to Rebels; MH-17 Likely Brought Down by Missile; So Far One American Identified On Board Flight

Aired July 18, 2014 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I also made clear that the United States and our friends and allies are deeply concerned about the risks of further escalation and the loss of more innocent life. And that's why we've indicated, although we support military efforts by the Israelis to make sure that rockets are not being fired into their territory, we also have said that our understanding is the current military ground operations are designed to deal with the tunnels, and we are hopeful that Israel will continue to approach this process in a way that minimizes civilian casualties and that all of us are working hard to return to the ceasefire that was reached in November of 2012.

Secretary Kerry is working to support Egypt's initiative to pursue that outcome. I told Prime Minister Netanyahu that John is prepared to travel to the region following additional consultations.

Let me close by making one additional comment. On board Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-17, there were apparently nearly 100 researchers and advocates traveling to an international conference in Australia dedicated to combating AIDS-HIV. These were men and women who had dedicated their own lives to saving the lives of others and they were taken from us in a senseless act of violence.

In this world today, we shouldn't forget that in the midst of conflict and killing, there are people like these, people who are focused on what can be built, rather than what can be destroyed; people who are focused on how they can help people that they've never met; people who define themselves not by what makes them different from other people, but by the humanity that we hold in common.

It's important for us to lift them up and to affirm their lives. And it's time for us to heed their example. The United States of America is going to continue to stand for the basic principle that people have the right to live as they choose; that nations have the right to determine their own destiny; and that when terrible events like this occur, the international community stands on the side of justice and on the side of truth.

So with that, let me take just a couple of questions. I'll start with you, Julie (ph).

QUESTION: Thank you, Mr. President.

Just on a technical matter, does the U.S. believe that this passenger jet was targeted or that those people who shot it down may have been going after a military -- thought they were going after a military aircraft? And more broadly, this incident does seem to escalate the pressures in Ukraine to a level we haven't seen before. Does that change your calculus in terms of what the U.S. and perhaps Europe should be doing in terms of a response?

OBAMA: Well, I think it's too early for us to be able to guess what the intentions of those who might have launched the surface-to- air missile might have had. The investigation is going to be ongoing. And I think what we'll see is additional information surfacing over the next 24 hours, 72 hours, the next week, the next month.

What we know right now -- what we have confidence in saying right now is that a surface-to-air missile was fired and that's what brought the jet down. We know or we have confidence in saying that that shot was taken within territory that is controlled by the Russian separatists. But I think it's very important for us to make sure that we don't get out ahead of the facts. And at this point in terms of identifying specifically what individual or group of individuals, you know, personnel ordered the strike, how it came about -- those are things that I think are still going to be subject to additional information that we're going to be gathering.

And we're working with the entire international community to make sure that the focus is on getting to the bottom of this thing and being truthful. And my concern is obviously that there's been a lot of misinformation generated in eastern Ukraine generally. This should snap everybody's heads to attention and make sure that we don't have time for propaganda. We don't have time for games. We need to know exactly what happened.

And everybody needs to make sure that we're holding accountable those who -- who committed this outrage.

With respect to the second question, as you're aware, before this terrible incident happened, we had already ratcheted up sanctions against Russia and I think the concern not just of Russian officials, but of the markets about the impact that this could have on the Russian economy is there for all to see.

I made clear to President Putin that our preferred path is to resolve this diplomatically. But that means that she (sic) and the Russian government have to make a strategic decision. Are they going to continue to support violent separatists whose intent is to undermine the government of Ukraine? Or are they prepared to work with the government of Ukraine to arrive at a ceasefire and a peace that takes into account the interests of all Ukrainians?

There has been some improved language at times over the last month, coming from the Kremlin and from President Putin, but what we have not seen is an actual transition and different actions that would give us confidence that that's the direction that they want to take.

And, you know, we will continue to make clear that as Russia you know, engages in efforts that are supporting the separatists, that we have the capacity to increase the costs that we impose on them. And we will do so. Not because we're interested in hurting Russia for the sake of hurting Russia, but because we believe in standing up for the basic principle that a country's sovereignty and territorial integrity has to be respected, and it is not the United States or Russia or Germany or any other country that should be deciding what happens in that country.

QUESTION: At this point do you see any U.S. military role that would be affected?

OBAMA: We don't see a U.S. military role beyond what we've already been doing in working with our NATO partners and some of the Baltic states, giving them reassurances that we are prepared to do whatever is required to meet our alliance obligations.

Steve (INAUDIBLE)?

QUESTION: Sir, thank you. How much (INAUDIBLE) do you put on (INAUDIBLE) Putin, and (INAUDIBLE) Europeans for stronger action?

OBAMA: We don't know exactly what happened yet, and I don't want to -- as I said before, get out ahead of the facts. But what I do know is that we have seen a ticking up of violence in eastern Ukraine that despite the efforts of the Ukrainian government to abide by a ceasefire and to reach out and agree to negotiations, including with the separatists, that has been rebuffed by these separatists. We know that they are heavily armed and that they are trained, and we know that that's not an accident, that it's happening because of Russian support.

So, you know, it is not possible for these separatists to function the way they're functioning, to have the equipment that they have, set aside what's happened with respect to the Malaysian Airlines, a group of separatists can't shoot down military transport planes, or they claim, shoot down fighter jets, without sophisticated, equipment and sophisticated training, and that is coming from Russia.

So, we don't yet know exactly what happened with respect to the Malaysian Airlines, although obviously we're beginning to draw some conclusions given the nature of -- of the shot that was fired. There are only certain types of anti-aircraft missiles that can reach up 30,000 feet and shoot down a passenger jet. We have increasing confidence that it came from areas controlled by the separatists. But without having a definitive judgment on those issues yet, what we do know is is that the violence that's taking place there is facilitated in part, in large part, because of Russian support. And they have the ability to move those separatists in a different direction.

If Mr. Putin makes a decision that we are not going to allow heavy armaments and -- and the flow of fighters into Ukraine across the Ukrainian-Russian border, then it will stop. And if it stops, then the separatists will still have the capacity to enter into negotiations and try to arrive at the sort of political accommodations that Mr. Putin himself says he wants to see.

He has the most control over that situation and, so far at least, he has not exercised it. QUESTION: Tougher sanctions in Europe, will you (INAUDIBLE) OBAMA: Well, I think that this certainly will be a wake-up call for Europe and the world that there are consequences to an escalating conflict in eastern Ukraine, that it is not going to be localized, it is not going to be contained. You know, what we've seen here is just in one country alone, our great allies, the Dutch, 150 or more of their citizens being killed.

OBAMA: And that, I think, sadly, brings home the degree to which the stakes are high for Europe. Not simply for the Ukrainian people. And that we have to be firm in our resolve and making sure that we are supporting Ukraine in its efforts to bring about a just cease-fire and that we can move towards a political solution to this.

I'm gonna make this the last question.

Lisa Lehrer (ph), Bloomberg?

QUESTION: Do we know yet about Americans on board and how many (INAUDIBLE)?

And how do you prevent stricter restrictions, economic restrictions, from shocking the global economy and costing (INAUDIBLE)?

OBAMA: We -- we have been pretty methodical over the last 24 hours in working through the flight manifest and identifying which passengers might have had a U.S. passport.

At this point, the individual that I mentioned is the sole person that we can definitively say was a U.S. or dual citizen.

Because events are moving so quickly, I don't want to say with absolute certainty that there might not be additional Americans, but at this stage, having worked through the list, been in contact with the Malaysian government which, you know, processed the passports, you know, as folks were boarding, this is our best assessment of the number of Americans that were killed.

Obviously, that does nothing to lessen our outrage about all those families, Regardless of nationality, it is a -- it is a heartbreaking event.

With respect to the effect of sanctions on the economy, we have consistently tried to tailor these sanctions in ways that would have an impact on Russia, on their economy, on their institutions or individuals that are aiding and abetting in the activities that are taking place in eastern Ukraine, while minimizing the impacts on not only the U.S. economy but the global economy.

It is a relevant consideration that we have to keep in mind. The world economy is integrated. Russia is a large economy. There's a lot of, you know, financial flows between Russia and the rest of the world.

But we feel confident that at this point the sanctions we've put in place are imposing a cost on Russia, that their overall impact on the global economy is minimal. It is something that we have to obviously pay close attention to, but I think Treasury in consultation with our European partners have done a good job so far on that issue. All right?

(CROSSTALK)

OBAMA: Thank you very much, everybody. Thank you.

(END LIVE FEED)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: President Obama speaking in the White House Briefing Room.

Good afternoon. I'm Anderson Cooper. We are covering the breaking news of the shoot down of the Malaysia Airlines flight over Ukraine. President Obama has just addressed the nation about the shoot down of the aircraft. He announced one victim from the crash is an American. A man by the name of Quinn Lucas Shondsman (ph). We're now working to get more information about him. The president also said he and the American people stand side by side with the Netherlands, Australia, Indonesia and the other countries who lost citizens on board that aircraft.

Meantime, here's the latest that we know from overseas. We now know the nationalities of most of the people who were on board the plane, in addition to that American. Most of them, 189, were Dutch. An extraordinary number for the Netherlands to suffer. Many others were from Malaysian and Australia. The airline announced today that they will make an initial cash payment of $5,000 to the family of each passenger. The airline said the money is meant to cover travel expenses to the crash site.

And the biggest clue so far as to who might be responsible is an audio recording the Ukrainian officials say they intercepted between pro- Russian rebels operating in eastern Ukraine. One of the voices on the tape tells another that they are, quote, "100 percent sure the plane is a civilian aircraft.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GREK (ph) (through translator): How are things going there?

MAJOR (ph) (through translator): Well, we are 100 percent sure that it was a civilian plane.

GREK: Are there a lot of people?

MAJOR: (EXPLETIVE DELETED). The debris was falling straight into the yards.

GREK: What plane is that?

MAJOR: I haven't figured out yet. I haven't got close to the main wreckage. Now I'm nearby the place where first bodies started falling.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Of course, the political impact of this horrific incident cannot be measured. Ukraine, the west, pointing fingers straight at the Russians. The Russian president saying its Ukraine's fault for keeping tension high on their shared border. Our Jim Sciutto is our chief national security correspondent. He joins me now.

Jim, somebody in that region clearly bears the weight of this tragedy. What are the possible ways the world powers are going to respond to that? Are there - are diplomats already talking about sanctions?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is the key question now. You saw the president there kind of defer that question as to ways the response, saying that they still want to look at what exactly happened here, although he did prod the Europeans there.

He said, in his words, this is a wake-up call for Europe and the world, that this crisis in Ukraine cannot be localized is not contained.

As we know, covering this the last several week, the U.S. was pushing for stiffer sanctions against Russia, even before this plane was shot down, and weren't able to get the Europeans on board.

The new sanctions the president announced earlier this week, sectoral sanctions against some key Russian energy and banks, energy firms and banks, Europeans were not on board for that, so the president to some degree in his comments there needling the Europeans a bit to join on for something more severe. Clearly, that's not decided yet.

The other thing significant in the president's comments, one, he said, we need time to see exactly what happened, but he is placing some responsibility on Russia, in his words, saying that this is not an accident.

It cannot happen, in his words, without Russian support, that pro- Russian separatists, he said, cannot shoot down a plane without sophisticated equipment, and that equipment, he says, is coming from Russia.

He says it hasn't been established exactly that Russia, you know, directed this strike or was there as the missile went up into the air. but more generally, that Russia is responsible to some degree for what's happening, including the shootout in eastern Ukraine, because they have been supporting these rebels, giving them weapons, sophisticated weapons, intelligence support, et cetera.

You mentioned earlier, Anderson, that intercepted communication as this plane was shot down, that Ukrainian officials, let's be clear, says it intercepted communication between the Russian -- the separatists who shot this plane down and their Russian handlers.

I, just in the last hour, have been supplied by Ukrainian officials, again, another recording, which they say purports to show that these Russian separatists got this missile system, carried it across the border from Russia, and the recording described, as they're doing it, saying, what are we going to do with this beauty, in their words.

So, again, this is an information war, we know it. We have to be clear about where this is coming from, certainly very sharp charges coming from the Ukrainian side.

COOPER: Evidence ideally to be gathered on the ground. Complicated by the fact this is an area controlled by those pro Russian rebels.

I want to go to our senior White House correspondent Jim Acosta, who is now joining us live from the White House briefing room, the president making a direct remark, then taking a few questions.

To you, Jim Acosta, what stood out?

JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, he was asked whether or not Vladimir Putin bears any responsibility here.

The president was being cautious, as he has since this plane was shot out of the sky. He says he wants to gather the facts, even warned against engaging in speculation before really assigning any blame in this.

But he did say repeatedly, as Jim Sciutto just mentioned, this missile was fired, it appeared, from an area controlled by pro-Russian separatists.

There's another thing happening on a separate track, that is the U.S. is trying to ascertain, as best as it can, from what I have heard from various senior administration officials, that this is a difficult task, just how many Americans were on board. That is still some information they're gathering at this point.

The president did mention one person, one American that has been confirmed to have been on board, Quinn Lucas Schansman. Here's the president talking about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: Yesterday, Malaysian airline, flight MH-17 took off from a Amsterdam and was shot down over Ukraine near the Russian border. Nearly 300 innocent lives were taken, men, women, children, infants who had nothing to do with the crisis in the Ukraine. Their deaths are a outrage of unspeakable proportions.

We know at least one American citizen, Quinn Lucas Schansman, was killed. Our thoughts and prayers are with his family for this terrible loss.

Yesterday, I spoke with the leaders of Ukraine, Malaysia and the Netherlands. I told them our thoughts and prayers are with all the families and that the American people stand with them during this difficult time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: So you heard the president there, almost starting to take on the role of "comforter in chief." We've seen that before.

The president's going to be speaking to Prime Minister Abbott of Australia later today to express his condolences.

You heard the president say during his remarks that there are unintended consequences to Russia's adventure in eastern Ukraine, and those researchers who were going to Australia, en route to work on HIV and AIDS issues, that those folks were lost on board, so the president talking about that.

I think in the coming days we're going to be the president making more phone calls like this to various countries that were heavily impacted.

The president did say at one point it may be the case of the United States, in term, of the Americans on board, was not heavily impacted of this shooting down of this plane, that does not lesson the overall global tragedy that's unfolding here, Anderson.

I think the other thing that's very important to underline here is that this White House is being very cautious about not engaging in speculation or getting the information or facts wrong as to what has occurred.

One thing we should point out, just in the last several minutes, I've been told that the White House briefing, the daily briefing that is held here at the White House on almost every day, has been canceled this afternoon.

So Josh Earnest, the press secretary, will not come out. They just don't want to engage in speculation; they want to get the facts nailed down.

Anderson?

COOPER: All right, Jim Acosta, appreciate it.

Richard Quest is joining us here in New York. Mary Schiavo, former NTSB inspector-general is here as well. And retired Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona, our military analyst, is here as well.

There's a lot to talk about. I do want to talk, though, about this video, which ahs been provided by the Ukrainian government. It was posted by the Ukrainian interior ministry, alleging to show a Russian military surface-to-air battery.

And let's take a look at this video. Let's put it up, a mobile Buk missile system apparently moving toward the Russian border, apparently with a rocket missing from its load. We'll put the video up here.

This was posted to the Facebook page of the interior ministry. Rick Francona, as you look at this, obviously, if this is legitimate, there seems to be one missile missing. The other missiles are exposed.

How important for investigators would it be to actually get access to this device? LT. COL. RICK FRANCONA (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: The key piece of

this is that radar that's on the front end of that. This is the transporter erector launcher radar. This is the vehicle that would have fired the missile and guided it to the target.

That radar is key to this investigation, because every radar has its own signature. We have collected the radar signal. If we have our accession to the radar, we can match those two up and say definitively this was the exact piece of equipment that fired and guided that missile.

COOPER: To do that, you actually have to have access?

FRANCONA: We have to get physical access to that piece of equipment to match it up with the recordings of the radar signals that we have.

COOPER: The idea that this vehicle would be heading toward the Russian border, though, is certainly ominous, certainly telling if, in fact, this is the device.

FRANCONA: That's right. And once it's gone, we'll never see it again. And, even if the Russians in a magnanimous gesture decide they're going to give us access to the vehicle, I can guarantee you that radar won't be in it.

COOPER: Mary Schiavo, in term, of the investigation, can you imagine a more complex investigation, given the realities on the ground, the pro-Russian rebels who control this area, the lack of access to the site?

MARY SCHIAVO, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, as the hours go on, it's starting to sound more and more like the investigation of the shoot down of KAL-007.

There, the Russians tried to actively hide the shoot down location of the site. It was in water. They denied they had found. In fact, after starting the search, they had found it within three days. The black boxes went missing literally for 10 years.

And it was very difficult because they tried to control the site. They went so far to -- we're all familiar with this from the search for Malaysia Flight 370 -- but they went so far as to deploy fake pingers.

COOPER: Really?

SCHIAVO: Yes. So --

COOPER: And black boxes in that case went missing for 10 years?

SCHIAVO: Well, they had them. The Russians had them, but they said that they didn't. There was great diffusion and obfuscation.

And so here, as the hours go on and we're not getting more definitive information, no access to site, it is sounding very much like what he said. There's going to be evidence disappearing and it's very disconcerting, especially to those families. COOPER: Can an investigation still determine, though, exactly what occurred if you don't have the black boxes?

SCHIAVO: I think an investigation can determine. The black boxes will be absolutely definitive. They're such a key. There are key markers on the sounds on the black boxes and they can be analyzed. But they can determine the cause.

COOPER: Particularly, in this case because it seems like a large -- large parts of the aircraft did not disintegrate in the air, and it's very possible there were people alive, the pilots could have been alive, as this plane was coming down.

SCHIAVO: Right, and there could be commentary obviously in the cockpit, even just a split second even can give you a clue.

There's telltale traces on the plane and the body as well, depending upon the missile, the explosive residue and the pitting pattern, sure.

COOPER: Rick?

FRANCONA: And we don't know exactly how the warhead impacted this aircraft. We don't know where -- it's a proximity fuse, so it goes off in the vicinity, a couple hundred feet away from the aircraft and spreads shrapnel and a concussive blast.

We don't know how that affected the aircraft even, so we don't know how it broke up or what size pieces there were, so that all needs to be determined. And the black boxes would be helpful.

COOPER: And, again, we talked about this, Richard Quest, last time, the importance of an independent international investigation, at least international investigators, to be able to get access to this site.

RICHARD QUEST, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: Yes, this is going to be crucial, and the president referred to exactly that. The president used the exact -- you know -- it needs to be -- the evidence needs to have credible, international investigation, and that the U.S. will hold all members of the U.N. Security Council to their word, is what the president said.

Putting this -- the French have already said that they'll take part. I would imagine everybody else will get on board.

The issue of course is how you're going to get the Ukrainians, who have the legal jurisdiction to hold the investigation, to hand it over. I suspect political pressure can soon sort that one out.

If you've lost the black boxes to Russia already, you've really got to get people there. You've got to get the experts as close as you can so they can see what is there. Otherwise, frankly, it's going to be very difficult.

COOPER: We're going to have more with our panel throughout the next two hours or so, a lot more ahead. While the world tries to figure out who is responsible for bringing down this flight, the families and friends of the nearly 300 people on board would died in the crash are mourning obviously.

Just ahead, we'll take a look at some of those lives lost, what we're now learning, including scientists and researchers, as President Obama mentioned, who were on the forefront of trying to find a cure for HIV/AIDS.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)