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CNN TONIGHT

U.S. Team Loses World Cup Match; Teen Animal Hunter Under Fire; Adam Richman's Rant; Robin Thicke Under Fire for Marriage Woes; Preschool to Prison Pipeline

Aired July 1, 2014 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

It was fun while it lasted, right, the games, the fans, the face- painting, the hot players, 20 days of summer that ended tonight for team USA. So is our love affair with soccer over, or is a beautiful game here to stay?

Plus, you can't say that, or can you? The Instagram rant that cost him his TV show, the album full of songs he wrote to try to get his wife back. What can you say these days and who decides?

And speaking of who decides, there is this, outrage or just another teenaged girl following her dream, hunting wild animals?

And why so many children as young as 3 are being kicked out of school, and how that could ruin the rest of their lives. We're going have a debate on that and much more.

Also, we want to know what you think on all of this. Make sure you tweet us using #AskDon.

But, first, here's take on soccer or football or whatever you want to call it. I'm really happy right now. Not because we lost, but because of this, Americans coming together and actually socializing with each other in person, not on some electronic device, like my colleagues today here at CNN watching the game on giant office monitors along with some of our bosses.

And like my friend Sean (ph) and his co-worker Christina (ph), who dressed up in soccer gear at their office and then texted the picture to me. And like lawmakers in Washington, watching with the president.

It shows that we aren't as divided as we might think, Republicans on one side, Democrats on the other. It proves that we are all Americans, just as ethnically diverse as team USA, coming together behind a singular cause for good. Can we please have more of that every day and not just every four years during the World Cup? Think about that, will you?

Now let's get to the game. The score was 0-0 after 90 minutes. But after three goals of 30 minutes of extra time, the U.S. World Cup run is over. And despite goalie Tim Howard's heroic, Belgium -- heroics, I should say, Belgium took us down 2-1. Well, joining me now is CNN's Shasta Darlington. She is live in

Brazil, and a man who I guess was going to be happy no matter how tonight's game went down, CNN's own Paul Vercammen, whose family is Belgian.

So, I'm biased. I'm going to start with you, Shasta.

Tell me what the mood is like there tonight. The party is over, but for team USA, at least they went out with a bang and not a whimper.

SHASTA DARLINGTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Exactly. I think there are a lot of mixed emotions here. There is some disappointment and some sadness.

But that's really mixed in with a sense of achievement. Not only did team USA go as far as it did, but tens of thousands of American fans flew all the way to Brazil, followed them around the country, and many of them had to delay their tickets home when they passed on to the round of 16.

So people are really proud of their team and proud of the soccer spirit that is growing in the United States. And another interesting thing, Don, I think other countries, especially Brazilians, are taking notice. They're saying team USA may one day be a well-known soccer team. We will see.

LEMON: Perfect. So, listen, the American outlaws have been very popular there, as you said, in Brazil. Who are they going to root for now, fans, the USA fans? Who are they going to root for now in the World Cup?

DARLINGTON: Well, Don, you know how much vacation time we have every year. So you can imagine two or three weeks into this, most of the fans who came here already used up their vacation time. They actually already had to go into overtime, fighting with their bosses to stay here for this last game.

So most of them really are headed home. No doubt this little love affair they started with Brazil will continue. A lot of the people who felt that they were supported and so well received by Brazilians will go on to show their support for team Brazil, I am certain.

But, again, most of them are headed home. This was already just a little extra time, a little extra fun. And keep in mind that after Brazilians, Americans were the fans that bought more tickets, over 100,000, to go to the games here. And they feel like they have had their fun. Now it's time to sit back and see who goes next, Don.

LEMON: All right. Now to Paul, my Belgian-American friend.

It must have been a roller coaster for you. But at least you came out smiling in the end.

PAUL VERCAMMEN, SENIOR PRODUCER: I was going to smile no matter what. As I said, Don, I had a team guaranteed to be in the quarterfinals. It was great. Hey, I want to start a campaign on the Don Lemon show. Let's erect a

statue of Tim Howard. I love Tim Howard, the American goalie. Did you know that he set a record today for most saves in a World Cup? Just phenomenal, Don.

LEMON: Yes, not since 1966, I believe. I understand that your mom, though, Paul, is one of 14 children. So the legion of Vercammens, how are they reacting?

P. VERCAMMEN: They're out of their mind. They have been texting all day.

My mom had played soccer with the boys back in Belgium as a farm girl. And I gave her a call today in Solvang, California. And I thought it would be kind of fun for you to take a listen. Let's take a listen.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

VIRGINIA VERCAMMEN, MOTHER OF PAUL VERCAMMEN: Oh, my gosh, unbelievable. Unbelievable. Yes, I'm still -- I haven't slept for the whole day. I haven't had my nap either, but beautiful, beautiful.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

LEMON: That was really cute. Everybody in here in the studio likes it.

P. VERCAMMEN: Like a lot of Europeans, she takes that power nap. And another note, my sister, the benevolent nurse who never denies anybody their meds, she says that she is bringing Belgian chocolate tomorrow for her co-workers because she felt bad. There are all kinds of other people partying all over the hemisphere who are going to bring their friends Belgian treats.

LEMON: All right, congratulations to you and your family, I guess, because your mom was so cute. Thank you, Paul Vercammen. Thank you very much, Shasta Darlington.

It was a great run and team USA wouldn't have made it to the knockout round if not for the heroics of team captain and leading goal scorer Clint Dempsey.

So joining me now, Lance and Ashley Dempsey, who is Clint's brother and sister-in-law.

Guys, it was a great run.

Lance, an instant classic despite the loss. You must still be proud, right?

LANCE DEMPSEY, BROTHER OF CLINT DEMPSEY: Oh, yes. We're happy. And congrats to Belgium. And better luck next time for the U.S.

LEMON: You know, the American team had to travel the most of any team, 8,900 miles compared to Belgium's one 45-minute flight covering just 1,100 miles you. Do you think that impacted their performance? We're looking for excuses here today, I think.

L. DEMPSEY: Oh, yes, definitely.

(LAUGHTER)

L. DEMPSEY: No, I don't think that that was a factor. I think that we didn't roll over and die and just give it away. So I felt like we were in it to win it the whole time. And it came down to the wire, like every game did for the U.S. It was very exciting to watch. I really enjoyed it.

LEMON: Ashley and Lance, it must have been tough watching it in the end, especially there -- we have a picture of Clint just sort of curled up in a ball after the loss.

Did you see that on television and what were you thinking?

L. DEMPSEY: We didn't see that.

ASHLEY DEMPSEY, SISTER-IN-LAW OF CLINT DEMPSEY: I think we felt the same way. I think we were in probably in the same position in our living room. So that's why we didn't catch it. But we were feeling the pain. It was -- it was a hard loss, because we were fighting so hard. And I think everyone was just on the edge of their seat, holding their breath, just really hoping for one more goal.

But I think right there at the end, they gave it all they could give it. We went out with a bang.

LEMON: And we had cameras there, and we saw you guys watching it. Does Clint realize all the support the team has here in the United States? And does he know his Twitter following has increased by like 78 percent? And people just love him. Everyone is watching not only at your house, but everywhere. Does he know that?

L. DEMPSEY: He doesn't feed into media too much. I think it's just because of him wanting to stay, stay true to his passion. But it is a huge compliment for him.

LEMON: Yes.

A. DEMPSEY: The whole town here has supported him. And I think he knows that Nacogdoches has been behind him. And I think he is proud of that and his family is proud of that.

I think he's -- everyone has represented him well, and he has represented the U.S. amazing. The whole team has done such a good job.

LEMON: That's it. I love the way you say Nacogdoches. I'm from Baton Rouge, so I'm used to saying that name. It's cool to hear someone who can actually say it on television properly.

A. DEMPSEY: Yes, yes. I know. No one can say it.

(LAUGHTER) LEMON: You guys, you were great sports. And I say congratulations anyway, because it was really quite an accomplishment. Thank you very much, Lance. Thank you, Ashley.

A. DEMPSEY: We appreciate it. Thank you.

LEMON: All right.

L. DEMPSEY: Thank you.

LEMON: So the big question after our collection -- our collective soccer fever, is the beautiful game here to stay in the USA?

Joining me now, CNN's Rachel Nichols.

Rachel, so put a button on it. What did this mean for us?

RACHEL NICHOLS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It was a great step forward for U.S. soccer. Yes, the American soccer team had reached this stage before, but never with the confidence and fervor that they had in this World Cup, never with the support that they had all over the United States, and never being able to emerge from the group of death, which really gave the Americans that confidence that they needed to go on to the world stage.

I think that before the tournament, we heard Jurgen Klinsmann, the coach, ruffle a few feathers when he said it was -- quote -- "not realistic" for the U.S. to win the World Cup. There was a debate about that and whether that was good or bad strategy to lower expectations. But I guarantee you this, Don. No American soccer coach is ever going to say anything like that again, because the expectation in this country now is absolutely we can compete for a World Cup.

And with this young team, it's a reality.

LEMON: Yes, that we can go all the way. Can we talk about Tim Howard? What an amazing game.

It was possibly one of the best final Cup performance ever, right, 35 years old. Did we witness an historic performance today?

NICHOLS: Absolutely.

You guys were talking about the record, 16 saves, hadn't been done since 1966, not having been done by an American, hadn't been done by anyone. And it really was a fantastic last performance in the World Cup stage for Tim Howard, which, let's be honest, he is 35 years old. This is probably the last time we will see him on this platform.

This is a kid who, before he even graduated high school, was playing professional soccer. That is not usual in the United States, certainly 20 years ago. He has paved the way in a lot of different directions. And I think there's a lot of kids out there who want to be Tim Howard when they grow up now. That's a big deal. That hasn't happened with soccer players as much. LEMON: Yes, not a bad person to want to be, to emulate. Last thing

here, Rachel, who do you see going all the way now? Who is going to take home the Cup?

NICHOLS: Well, the big picks are Argentina vs. Brazil in the final. I have got to go with one of your producer, Conor Hanna. He's picking Argentina. You got to love Messi and the way he's playing right now, had a beautiful, beautiful cross in the game today.

It's a good bet, but it's fun. And certainly I think a lot of soccer fans who loved watching the American team these past couple of weeks are still going to be flipping the dial and watching some of the games for the next week or so, because it is entertaining. It's great to see all the colors and the pageantry and the players. It's a fun thing to get into.

LEMON: Are you sure that's what he said, because half the time I can't understand him? He just sounds like this, you know?

(LAUGHTER)

NICHOLS: Your Irish producer.

LEMON: I know. He's in my ear. And I'm like, what did you say again?

All right, Rachel, thank you very much.

Just kidding, Conor. Don't get upset.

More reaction to tonight's big game when we come right back.

Also, the Texas teen who is making a name for herself as a big game hunter and getting a lot of people pretty angry in the process.

Plus, the uninvited guest who just might rain on your parade this holiday weekend, whether you like it or not.

As always, let us know what you think. Tweet us using #AskDon.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Welcome back, everyone, a lot to discuss here.

A picture worth 1,000 words, so take a look at this one. Texas teenager Kendall Jones celebrating her kill, an adult lion, which she shot on safari in Africa. Lots of heated debate about this and about the other big story of the day, team USA's World Cup heartbreaker.

So joining me now to discuss all of it, Mel Robbins, a CNN commentator and legal analyst, Marc Lamont Hill CNN political commentator, comedian and activist Mr. Hal Sparks, and Mandy Stadtmiller, editor at large for xoJane.

Good to see all of you.

Hal, did you watch? Are you heartbroken? Are you a soccer fanatic now?

HAL SPARKS, COMEDIAN: I'm so happy America finally came around to knowing what every 10-year-old in the country has known for a very long time, that soccer can be really fun.

But make no mistake about it. We are going to stop caring in about five minutes. We're too new to the sport -- yes.

MEL ROBBINS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: No, we already stopped caring.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Mel, you may be right. You have a point there, right?

ROBBINS: Yes.

Look, in many suburbs around the country, there are children that are born wearing a pair of soccer shorts. But once they go on into high school and parents realize they're not going get recruited for college sports, their love affair with soccer ends abruptly. We don't care. We're out. You're going to watch the tune-in rates plummet, plummet, plummet, plummet.

(CROSSTALK)

SPARKS: And soccer ends up actually being more beneficial for kids in that way, in that there is no endgame, no pun intended, and kids grow up to be things like scientists and lawyers after playing it and using it to develop physical coordination and the like.

It's actually helpful that way. There is no illusion of, you know, a national soccer situation in your future.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Go ahead, Mandy.

MANDY STADTMILLER, EDITOR AT LARGE, XOJANE: I was just going say I'm definitely going to keep watching along with a lot of other women just for the guys.

So I don't think there is going to be a whole lot of drop-off as long as the guys keep being really hot and sweaty.

(CROSSTALK)

SPARKS: It's the high kicking. It's the high kicking.

STADTMILLER: Yes.

LEMON: OK.

So speaking of hot guys, Marc Lamont Hill, I don't mean you. I'm talking about Tim Howard.

I'm joking. What was your favorite moment? Tim Howard on fire today. MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: He was on fire. That was the most

exciting part of the whole thing, watching him set records and just be awesome and watching -- I sort of watched it through Twitter.

I know you love watching soccer because it brings everybody together in real life. But I still watch it on the Internet. And everybody was tweeting about Tim Howard. Everyone was saying he is the real MVP. Everyone was saying how awesome he was. It was sort of great to watch him rise to the occasion.

But like Hal said, five minutes from now, it's kind of all going to be over.

LEMON: Not even five minutes from now. I think Mel is right. It's over now.

HILL: Yes.

LEMON: And what I liked is -- see this thing right here?

That we weren't communicating with each other on this. People were actually sitting around, socializing, eating in the newsroom. Yes, just I was wow. This is great. This is like 1985 all over again.

So let's move on now. I want to talk about 19-year-old Kendall Jones starting some outrage. She is a cheerleader from Cleburne, Texas, under fire with animal rights activists over her controversial Facebook page where she has posted photos of herself with a rifle posing over bodies of recently killed animals.

Mel, what is your take on this?

ROBBINS: Well, you know, I'm from the Midwest, Don. Grew up with a dad who is a duck hunter.

So if you want to sit in a deer stand with a bow and arrow and wait eight hours, or you want to stay in a duck blind and sit in the freezing cold for seven hours with a rifle, that is one thing. If your daddy flies you over to Africa in a jet so that you can post photos on your Facebook page which you have labeled public figure as a 19-year-old and you're using an assault weapon to kill what are otherwise endangered animals, I hardly call that hunting and find it quite offensive.

HILL: Thank you, Mel.

I was so scared you were going to agree with this. We actually agree on something tonight. This is awful. And she is doing this to push her own agenda. She is trying to get a TV show hunting. And she says she is trying to help conserve the animals. She is saying these are areas where the animals would die, they would starve.

ROBBINS: B.S.

HILL: It's all B.S. and it's not true. That's propaganda that animal hunters say, and it's not true. LEMON: Hal, why the strange face?

SPARKS: Well, as someone who is originally from the South, I know that when it comes to animal conservation, our one solution seems to always be to shoot some of them.

I don't know why that's our -- we can't come up with a better plan than maybe we should just blow a couple of them away. That would solve it.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: But, Mandy, it's all perfectly legal, though. It's perfectly legal.

(CROSSTALK)

SPARKS: There's are a lot of things that are legal that are no good.

(CROSSTALK)

STADTMILLER: Her smile that she makes I think just adds to the outrage, because she looks just like she is, you know, the -- and she is a cheerleader, I think.

(CROSSTALK)

SPARKS: The biggest crime here, the biggest crime here in many ways I think is that she is doing a behavior that is usually reserved for pudgy, balding, Viagra-seeking man.

And suddenly the fact that a blonde cheerleader is doing is the offensive part. The reality is, it's offensive when any of these idiots do it.

LEMON: Yes.

SPARKS: You don't need to cull a herd of endangered species. It's silly.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: What do you have against pudgy, balding men on Viagra? What's wrong? Why are you discriminating?

(CROSSTALK)

ROBBINS: Well, the Supreme Court didn't discriminate against them today, only women.

(CROSSTALK)

STADTMILLER: I just want to make my point. I think that she is doing these pictures the same way that a lot of other teenagers are taking selfies with, you know, the latest jewelry and makeup. And she is doing with these endangered animals. And she has the same understanding that they do.

(CROSSTALK)

SPARKS: They're beyond endangered. They're dead.

LEMON: Her family says that she has been hunting big game in Africa since she was 13 years old and that they probably think people are bothered by it because of her age.

SPARKS: Oh, that makes it better.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: But I just -- listen, here is what I want to say this.

This is what -- the statement that -- lengthy statement today Kendall did. And I guess it was through her representatives or what have you and she explains this whole trip to Zimbabwe.

She says: "All of Kendall's hunts in Zimbabwe and South Africa were 100 percent legal with proper tags and licenses awarded on a pre- approved quota by the countries' officials and wildlife department."

And she actually -- in the statement, I have the full statement here, she is saying and her representatives that it actually helped the population in conservation because she was killing animals that killed other herds.

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: OK. Let me say one thing about that, because that is a lie that is often told by animal hunters. But the problem is when you go out and kill particular animals for that purpose, you typically get the big ones, the big shiny ones, the big strong ones, the ones you can put on Instagram and Facebook or TV.

And the problem is, the ones that you kill are the ones that have the strongest survival codes, the strongest genetic codes. As a result, the ones that stay are the weaker species. And so when they reproduce, you actually help kill off the herd because they don't have the strongest genes. It actually doesn't work.

ROBBINS: Wow.

STADTMILLER: In her defense...

(CROSSTALK)

ROBBINS: ... zoologist. I love it.

HILL: There you go.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Mandy, Mandy, Mandy, go ahead.

STADTMILLER: One of her pictures of I think it was the rhino, she actually clarified that the animal wasn't dead.

The animal was actually being treated and was put under and wasn't dead like the other ones. And she said, while you were sending me death threats, I was actually helping this animal. So I just -- I don't like to do black and white, she is completely evil. She terrifies me, but I don't think that...

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: It's still pretty terrifying, though. If you go in a room and kill five people and then treat a wound on the sixth person, that doesn't make you OK.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: But she is also 19 years old.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Right. And her family bears probably more responsibility than her, if you're going to be outraged by it.

(CROSSTALK)

SPARKS: It's more reflective of social lazy rich people behavior than it is of her in particular.

LEMON: And 50,000 names on Facebook calling for her to remove her page, currently three online petitions. What should they do, Mel?

(CROSSTALK)

ROBBINS: Keep it. I mean, there is still a market for this.

SPARKS: Leave it up.

ROBBINS: Just because she is offending us and basically saying that, oh, I'm a hunter, yet it's all financed by my daddy and I go over to Africa to hunt with my assault rifle, and I'm only culling out the biggest and baddest animals, and I'm helping the conservationists, which the reason why people are outraged is America hates liars.

And this smacks of a lack of authenticity. If you just want to pose with a bunch of dead big animals because it's going to get you a reality show, say that. But don't send us this B.S. that it's helping the conservation effort in Africa, because that's offensive.

LEMON: But we also love hunting and we love guns as well. But stay with me, everybody.

We have got a lot more to talk about, including Robin Thicke's over- the-top plan to win back his estranged wife, which frankly is getting a little uncomfortable, kind of stalkeristic.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Lots of strong opinions tonight about celebrities behaving badly, from Adam Richman to Robin Thicke.

Back with me now, Mel Robbins, Marc Lamont Hill, Hal Sparks and Mandy Stadtmiller.

The Travel Channel has now postponed the premiere of Adam Richman's new show, "Man Finds Food," shortly after he got into an Instagram food over his use of #thinspiration beside a photo of himself. He had recently lost 70 pounds and was showing off his thin body.

Mandy, here's the problem. Apparently, the word thinspiration is widely used in pro-anorexia and pro-bulimia circles and often comes with pictures of emancipated bodies.

Did you know anything about this thinspiration?

STADTMILLER: Yes, we actually ran a story on xoJane that was written by the main woman who got in a fight with him, and he called her the C-word and then he told another critic that they should take a razor blade and go to the bath and no one would miss them if they killed themselves.

And that's when I think things started to go wrong is because people were saying...

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: But let's stick to the first part of the story.

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: That's where it went wrong.

LEMON: That did go wrong, but let's stick to the first part of the story.

(CROSSTALK)

STADTMILLER: Honestly, there wouldn't be a story if he wouldn't have used the C-word.

LEMON: If he hadn't done that, exactly.

(CROSSTALK)

STADTMILLER: Yes, there wouldn't have been a story.

LEMON: If he had said, listen, I don't know what thinspiration is, I have no idea.

Did you guys know, anybody else on the panel? I didn't know.

ROBBINS: Yes, of course. I think most women know.

Women, we know about thigh gaps and thinspiration and all kinds of awful stuff related to body image. But, still, this doesn't have to do with thinspiration. (CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Go ahead.

SPARKS: The suggestion I was making is, it seemed to bridge out of him not knowing what that word meant either.

And the initial confrontation with him about it was calling him a D- list celebrity, was very derogatory. He got into a fight. I'm not excusing his behavior in this at all. But both of these are very important issues, anorexia and bulimia and how you are dealing with this.

If you're trying to make people aware, that doesn't help to immediately assume he knows and start criticizing a guy who just lost the weight. We have such an issue with food in this country. But, interestingly enough, both of them seem to be like they're trying to get healthier and make sure other people are healthy. Whether it's undereating or overeating is one thing.

The ironic thing is, this is over a show called "Man vs. Food."

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Well, that's exactly what happened. Art is imitating life here.

So here's the thing. As Mandy was saying, so he ended up apologizing. Instead of apologizing, he replied to people on his Instagram account who commented with an expletive-filled rant. He actually wrote, "Grab a razor blade and draw a bath. I doubt anyone will miss you."

And that's -- you know, that's hardly the way that you draw a line. That's hardly the way you respond.

SPARKS: Never works.

LEMON: And that's the reason that he got in trouble.

STADTMILLER: I have to say, listening to his apology today, it just so read like it was worked on by, you know, five of the top crisis PR experts. It just didn't seem authentic.

LEMON: Let me read it for you.

STADTMILLER: Yes.

LEMON: He says, "I have struggled with my body image and have worked hard to achieve a healthy weight. I'm incredibly sorry to everyone I hate." So you think that someone else...

STADTMILLER: "I've hurt."

LEMON: "I've hurt, I've hurt." I'm sorry. That too. Thank you.

HILL: I think -- here's the thing. I think oftentimes this is what happens when you're on the Internet and you're having these types of exchanges.

I don't think the thinspiration was intended to promote, you know, the pro-ana movement. He just didn't know any better. And when he got called on it, some of the people who called him on it were nice and gentle. Others were jerks about it. He responded to everybody as if they were a jerk. He went way over the top with the most vile language possible. And then once you're defensive like that you keep doubling down on it, and he just couldn't stop. He clearly lost his mind somewhere on the Internet. And that's the problem. Everybody was being scorned.

LEMON: I wonder who I just offered that advice to. Somebody, I think, maybe on the panel. Moving along! Moving on.

So you know, seriously, but sometimes you just leave them in the dark, right, instead of responding to it.

SPARKS: That's the best advice ever. Don't respond to the comments.

ROBBINS: Especially after you have had a few cocktails. At time of night? It doesn't excuse it. But I wouldn't be surprised.

SPARKS: What does alcohol have to do with it? Maybe you're just a sober jerk.

HILL: That's true. Because I don't care how drunk you are, you don't call people the "C" word.

ROBBINS: Oh, yes you do.

SPARKS: Like, booze brings that out in you? You have bigger fish to fry.

ROBBINS: Yes, it does. Yes, it does.

SPARKS: Ask Mel Gibson.

HILL: It's real simple. If you're famous and you're a celebrity and you have a TV show, you shouldn't be arguing with people in the comments section. If a million people are tweeting you, you don't respond to the tweets.

SPARKS: How to lose, right.

HILL: Look, we all -- Don, I'm sure you've done it before. But all I'm saying it's not good advice because you always end up in a bad place. It just never works out well.

STADTMILLER: Yes. You never win. And if you're a public figure, you have to accept the fact that you are going to be a punching bag, and you just have to send nasty e-mails bitching people out in your head.

HILL: Don't read them.

SPARKS: End up lying on television. For the record, nobody on this panel or anybody even watching is sorry about everyone they've ever hurt.

LEMON: All right. All right. Here we go. Let's move on.

SPARKS: Some of them. Not all.

LEMON: Let's talk about someone who is really sorry that he hurt someone, and that is Robin Thicke. And he's getting a lot of backlash on Twitter as well today, because his public campaign to win back his estranged ex-wife Paula Patton. I think it's still his wife; they're not divorced. His estranged wife.

So he took part in a Twitter Q&A today, the #askThicke. And it was brutal, Marc. It was completely brutal.

HILL: I feel bad for this guy. I really do.

ROBBINS: Oh!

HILL: I was at the BET awards. I saw him do his "Hey, Paula" song, and the whole audience groaned. It was uncomfortable, shirting back and forth in their seats.

Then he does the ask Paul -- askthicke hash tag, which is always an invitation for bad things to happen. We saw this a month ago. The NYPD said, "Upload your favorite pictures of the NYPD," and people were showing police brutality.

ROBBINS: Yes.

HILL: It's open season. Unless you're super famous and universally loved, which is very few people, you don't do an open-air campaign to ask questions, because everyone after that rape-y song of his, "Blurred Lines," and they're going to keep doing it probably for the next ten years.

LEMON: Because they're say it promotes misogyny and rape culture.

HILL: It's a rape-y song. Come on. "Blurred Lines"?

ROBBINS: "You know you want it. You know you want it. You know you want it."

SPARKS: Yes. It's a date rape song.

HILL: Yes, it's a date rape.

SPARKS: Look, here's the -- this -- look, this is not an album. This is a reality show in audio form.

STADTMILLER: Yes.

SPARKS: It's arguably like if Kim and Kanye did a soundtrack instead of a series, this would be it. And these days, that kind of, like, drawing your audience in and creating this kind of false, you know, like drama, it's a better way to drive album sales, quite frankly, you know, because it makes you engaged, more so than just "Here's some songs in the abstract about somebody I'm in love with." Now you have the reality show attachment.

LEMON: OK.

SPARKS: And I think that's what he's going for. It just seems that contrived.

LEMON: Mel.

STADTMILLER: I don't think that she's in on it, though. I don't think she's in on it. And I'm afraid that the next album is going to be called "Restraining Order."

LEMON: Well, the next album is called "Paula." And -- so does -- does he win her back, Mel?

ROBBINS: No. And in fact, the one story that nobody is talking about is that everyone in America can learn something from Paula. Obviously, Robin Thicke did something, whether it's prancing around with naked people or gyrating behind Miley Cyrus or cheating on her, whatever it is that pissed her off.

And the bottom line is, she is using what every man has ever used, which is called tease and denial.

LEMON: Yes, yes.

ROBBINS: Clearly, she pushed him away. She's avoiding him. It's driving him crazy. So ladies...

LEMON: And it's driving -- it's driving a lot of Americans crazy, as well.

HILL: All of us crazy now.

LEMON: Yes, yes.

ROBBINS: So if somebody ever does it to you, tease, deny them attention.

LEMON: I've got to run. Thank you, Hal Sparks.

SPARKS: "Tease and Denial" is my band's next album.

LEMON: Thank you. HalSparks.com. HalSparks.com for upcoming projects.

Thank you, all. Thanks, Mel. Thank you, Marc. Thank you, Hal. Thank you, Mandy, as well.

ROBBINS: Good night, Don.

LEMON: All right. Good night.

Coming up, why so many of America's preschoolers are being kicked out of school, and how it can ruin the rest of their lives.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Imagine your 3-year-old being kicked out of preschool. It happens a lot more often than you might think, especially to black children. And it can be the start of a downward spiral that ruins their lives. CNN's Sara Sidner looks at the preschool to prison pipeline.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TUNETTE POWELL, MOTHER: It rhymes, so if I say "cat."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the hat.

SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Four-year-old J.J. and his 3-year-old brother Joah (ph) are doing what children their age do. Running and playing one minute, pushing the next.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ow!

SIDNER; When they act up at home, they are disciplined.

POWELL: I think that they're typical 4- and 3-year-olds.

SIDNER: But at school?

POWELL: He's been suspended about five times.

SIDNER (on camera): At 3?

POWELL: At 3. And I can't make this up. I wish I was.

He hit one of the teachers on the arm, and they sent him home. And they said that they considered that hitting to be a danger to the staff.

SIDNER (voice-over): The most recent report says 7,500 children nationwide were suspended at least once from public preschool. Yes, preschool. The alarming numbers reported by the Department of Education also say black students are being suspended and expelled at a rate three times greater than white kids across all grades.

ARNE DUNCAN, U.S. SECRETARY OF EDUCATION: We know there is a correlation between doing out-of-school suspensions and expulsions and ultimately locking kids up. There's far too many children in our communities; the school to prison pipeline is real. And the fact that it's starts as young as 4, again, simply isn't good enough.

SIDNER: In Los Angeles, America's second largest school district, Superintendent John Deasy finds the trend disturbing.

(on camera): Why are these numbers playing out this way?

JOHN DEASY, SUPERINTENDENT: I think they're the same biases that are in society. So I don't think this -- I think this is a reflection of the growth we have yet to do in this country around these issues. SIDNER (voice-over): What shocked him: the reason. The majority of

suspensions in his district were for something called "willful defiance."

DEASY: It was things like failure to do homework, failure to bring your notebook to class. That's not willful defiance. That's adolescence.

SIDNER: A year ago, the district became the first in the nation to remove willful defiance as a reason for suspensions, and the numbers have dropped ever since. Three years ago, there were 19,000 suspensions. This year, 8,000.

The teachers' union never took a stance on the issue, with some teachers saying willful defiance has been abused and others saying it takes an important disciplinary tool away from their classrooms.

POWELL: I teach my kids all the time. Education is your passport.

SIDNER: Tunette Powell learned that the hard way. Long before her sons were born, she was labelled a troublemaker. As the daughter of a drug-addicted father, she struggled in school and life.

POWELL: I was expelled from school when I was 3 years old in preschool. And when I first got the phone call about -- about J.J., I immediately thought back to that. You know, at a young age, I was told that I was bad kid in school.

SIDNER: Tunette proved them wrong, eventually got her college degree, wrote a book, and became an accomplished public speaker, even giving a TED talk. The Powells have worked hard to make a good life for their children.

POWELL: My biggest fear is that they'll be labeled and that they'll believe it.

SIDNER: Every day she fights to inspire her boys. More a preschool to premed mentality...

POWELL: Go! Go do it! Go do it! Go do it!

SIDNER: ... than preschool to prison.

Sara Sidner, CNN, Omaha.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: Sara, thank you very much.

So what do we do about this preschool to prison timeline, and what will it take for us to do right by all of our kids?

Joining me now is a man who has a lot to say about that, Education Secretary Arne Duncan. Welcome.

DUNCAN: Thank you so much, Don, for the opportunity. LEMON: So let's talk about this report. It's finding a shocking

number of preschoolers are being suspended, and that across the board, far more black students are being suspended or expelled than whites. What's going on?

DUNCAN: Well, first of all, I'm so proud of our Office of Civil Rights for doing this massive data collection. And as a nation, we've had a lack of transparency, a lack of information on these critically important issues.

And I have to say, I learn something every day that's new, Don. But I had no idea, none, that as a nation, we were suspending or expelling 7,500 3- and 4-year-olds each year. It just blew me away. And the fact that, you know, 18 percent of our children in preschool are black, but almost half, 48 percent of our black students are the ones being suspended or expelled. The racial dynamics of this are very, very tough.

And we need to address this openly and honestly with the courage of leaders like John Deasy in L.A., who are looking at the brutal truth, looking at the facts and changing adult behavior to better support children.

LEMON: Let's talk a little bit more about the numbers. And, you know, I have to tell you, as well, I had no idea that so many kids were been suspended...

DUNCAN: It's stunning, stunning.

LEMON: ... at preschool. But listen, let's put those numbers back up. 2011-2012 school year, 7,500 preschoolers were suspended. Black students represent 18 percent of the total enrollment, as you said. They represent 48 percent of children suspended at least once.

And then across the board, from kindergarten to 12th grade, 16 percent of black students were suspended or expelled versus 5 percent of white students.

So why are so many preschoolers getting expelled, and why are we seeing again this racial disparity across the board here?

DUNCAN: Yes. Well, what I always say, Don, is that when a child is acting out, that's always a symptom of a problem. It's never the root cause. And I think it's incumbent upon us as adults to get to the root cause of what's going on that's causing that child to act out or to misbehave.

Is it a challenge in school? Is it a challenge in community? Is it a challenge at home?

And when we suspend and expel, we don't deal with the root cause. In fact, we avoid it, and we may actually be exacerbating the problems. And so the easy thing to do is to put the kid out in the streets. The harder thing to do, but the right thing to do, is that that child needs more time with a social worker, with a counselor. Do we need to bring those parents in and work together on these very tough issues? And as you know, I spent a lot of time working in the inner city on

the South Side of Chicago. Children came to us with lots of challenges. But when you listened to them, when you paid attention, worked with a family, you could transform their behavior.

But putting them out and, again, perpetuating the school-to-prison pipeline, when we do that, we in education are part of the problem.

LEMON: Well...

DUNCAN: And the fact that it starts so early, again, is just absolutely sad.

LEMON: Secretary, let me jump in there. Because if you saw in Sara's story there, it seemed to intimate that there was some sort of reflection on racism here as a society. Is that -- is that true? Is it part of a racial problem in America as the story contends?

DUNCAN: Well, there -- so this is -- let me be very clear: there are clear racial disparities in the use of out-of-school suspension and expulsions that is a real challenge. Is it racism? I can't honestly say that, and we again don't begin to know whether these teachers are white teachers or black teachers or whatever. It doesn't matter, frankly, to me.

What does matter is that we better train, we better equip adults to deal with these issues and take steps like the L.A. school system has been courageous enough to do to better support students who are struggling.

So I've been to high schools that historically were very violent, had all kinds of challenges, where adults are actually relinquishing, giving up some of their power, moving towards peer juries, moving towards peer mediation, empowering the teenagers themselves to take ownership, take control of the culture in those schools. And guess what? Incidents of discipline and violence are going down very, very significantly.

LEMON: And they got -- they got rid of this willful defiance rule. And now that changed the numbers drastically in the right direction.

DUNCAN: Don, again, these children, 99.9 percent of them, these are good kids, Don. These are really good kids who need a little extra support or love or attention or clear -- clear expectations, high expectations. This is never about, you know, perpetuating an unsafe environment.

But when we meet children halfway, they will more than meet us halfway. We as adults have to be willing to take that step and have the courage to deal with these very tough issues openly and honestly and transparently, and hold ourselves accountable each year for improving outcomes for young people who need to be in school, who desperately need a quality education.

LEMON: Listen, I was a bad kid, let me tell you. I was precocious.

DUNCAN: I don't believe it.

LEMON: Thank you, Secretary.

DUNCAN: You turned out just fine.

LEMON: Thank you. I appreciate you coming on. Let's do something about all this. We really do appreciate you.

And coming up, two people who couldn't disagree more about this. One who says too many minority kids are pushed out of school, and one who says liberals are to blame for making it harder for blacks -- blacks to succeed. They're going to go head to head. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Most Americans can agree that educating our kids can be a top priority. But are black students at a disadvantage from the very start?

Joining me now is Jason Riley. He's the author of "Please Stop Helping Us: How Liberals Make it Harder for Blacks to Succeed." And CNN political commentator Donna Brazile.

Good to see both of you.

Jason, I'm going to start with you. You've heard the secretary's interview. We just interviewed him. Why do you think there is a racial disparity in terms of black students being expelled versus white students, beginning as early as preschool?

JASON RILEY, AUTHOR, "PLEASE STOP HELPING US": Well, why would you be surprised at seeing a racial disparity in disciplinary outcomes in schools? You see a racial disparity outside of schools. You see a huge racial disparity. Look at who's filling our prisons and jails: disproportionately black, young men. So the idea that this just starts after they leave school seems a little implausible to me.

My problem with what the secretary said is where the sympathies of this administration lie. Why are they with the troublemakers and not with the kids who are in school to learn? How do you help a child who is in school to get an education by making it tougher or pressuring schools to go easier on the bullies?

LEMON: We're talking about preschoolers here, though.

RILEY: They're making preschoolers the face of this problem. But preschoolers are not the face of this problem. This is something going on through middle school and particularly in high school.

And remember, these kids, these black kids that are already attending some of the lowest performing schools, with some of the lowest performing teachers. Now we're going to relegate them to the most violent schools, as well? Again, I just don't see how this is in the interests of closing the achievement gap and helping the black underclass.

LEMON: Donna, you want to respond to that?

DONNA BRAZILE, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: First of all, children should be in school. They should be in school to learn.

And the fact is, is that there's a very large amount of black kids, African-American kids, who are being kicked out for so-called disruptive behavior, and white kids who commit the same offense, they're not being expelled or suspended.

We know that this has a disproportionate impact not just on the child, but also on the school and the community. If we want to really address some serious issues, this is one where I think we need to all start by saying, "You know what? We need to bring everybody together. We need the school. We need the teachers. We need the administrators. We need the elected officials. We need everybody to come together so that we can find a way to solve this problem."

I have a niece who is a preschool teacher down in New Orleans. She was in the Ninth Ward up until about two years ago. And what she tells me is that these kids, often when they come to school, they want to learn. But, you know, there's no one at home that says, you know, "You got to sit down and learn." Often we give them iPads or some phone, and then they come to school, and they don't know how to sit and learn. And she said by the end of the week, we got it down.

LEMON: But Donna, that starts at home.

BRAZILE: Absolutely.

LEMON: And should that be the teacher's problem? I wrote about this story when the study first came out. And surprisingly, many teachers, both black and white, wrote me and said, "Don, you have no idea what we're facing in the classroom. Some of these even at preschool." They said.

I wrote -- I said, "Surely a preschooler could not harm some -- an adult."

And they said, "Oh, Don, you don't know." It's a real problem.

BRAZILE: It happens, Don. It happens.

And Jason, to your point, of course it happens. But we have to address it.

LEMON: Let Jason respond, as well.

BRAZILE: These kids are not coming from perfect homes, Don. And so we have to -- But what are we going to do that? We have -- this is a -- that's why I say we have to wrap our arms around the entire problem, not just expelling these kids.

LEMON: OK. I got your point.

RILEY: Part of the problem, though, is this automatically ascribing racial animus when we don't see racial parity in outcomes. Whether we're talking about school, discipline outcomes or other outcomes. And that's very troubling and very problematic.

White kids are suspended at higher rates than Asian kids. Is that also evidence of racial animus at work? Many of -- you know, 25 percent of black -- of school teachers in Chicago are black. Around 20 percent in New York are black. Are they racially biased against black kids?

I find it very troublesome to automatically jump to racial animus describing these outcomes. No one wants to talk about the behavior behind these disciplinary outcomes. That's what we're talking about.

LEMON: But Jason, listen, I see both of your points. So then what do we do? Donna, you have said that we -- that we should work together, that students and parents and everyone needs to work together. What is the fix here?

BRAZILE: Well, clearly, we have to make sure that we give teachers the resources and the training they need. We have to also make sure that the principals are involved and that we are working with social welfare agencies, the local law enforcement but also parents. Everyone has to be brought into the room. Because we cannot solve this simply by taking the point of...

LEMON: Is this a liberal-conservative problem as Jason says?

BRAZILE: You know what? You know what? There are so many problems in the world that can be solved by partisanship. This -- this is an issue that needs to be solved from the heart.

LEMON: OK, OK.

BRAZILE: Because we care about our young people, and we care about the future of our country. And that's where it should be solved.

LEMON: Jason.

RILEY: I would focus on giving these black parents more school choice. One of the reasons school choice is so popular among blacks and the black poor in particular is because these alternatives to traditional public schools provide safer learning environments. There were something like 150,000 violent assaults on teachers...

LEMON: All right, wrap it up, Jason.

RILEY: ... a couple of years ago. So this is an issue. This approach, just simply reducing black suspension rates, is not going to help the black kids in school to learn, and it's not going to help teachers teach.

BRAZILE: That's not what we're calling for.

RILEY: Our sympathy should be with the kids in school to learn.

LEMON: All right. Last word. Thank you, Jason Riley, and thank you, Donna Brazile. I know. We can go on forever.

BRAZILE: Don, Don, I was a good kid in school.

LEMON: I was not. I was bad. I just told that to the education secretary.

BRAZILE: I know.

LEMON: He said I was precocious, but I would say I was bad. And I turned out OK. Thanks to both of you. I appreciate it.

BRAZILE: You did.

RILEY: Thank you.

BRAZILE: Thank you.

LEMON: Coming up, why a guy named Arthur might ruin your holiday weekend.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Time now for "CNN TONIGHT Tomorrow," the stories you could be talking about tomorrow.

It could be a wet one, a wet Fourth of July along the East Coast. The first tropical storm of the season, 2014, named Arthur, has formed off eastern Florida and could reach hurricane strength when it hits the Outer Banks in North Carolina.

Tomorrow the storm is expected to head northeast, bringing showers as far as New York and Boston. Sorry about that.

I'm Don Lemon. Thanks for watching. "AC 360" starts right now.