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LEGAL VIEW WITH ASHLEIGH BANFIELD

V.A. New Report; Kerry Visits Baghdad; ISIS Gains Ground; PA A.G. Releases Sandusky Report, But Politics May Play Role in Findings

Aired June 23, 2014 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Iraqi cities falling one after the other, seized by Sunni militants, rapidly closing in on Baghdad. And that's right where the U.S. secretary of state, John Kerry, is at this hour on a desperate mission to help the Iraqi government regain control of that country.

Also ahead, how is your blood pressure? Well, it is bound to go up when you hear the latest outrageous report on how veterans of this country are being treated, or should I say neglected, at V.A. hospitals. CNN's Drew Griffin back on that case this hour.

And a dream becomes a reality today in downtown Atlanta. A new museum opening its doors to help open our minds to the ongoing mission of pursuing human and civil rights.

Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. It's Monday, June 23rd. And welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

Unsterile medical equipment, chronic staffing shortages, neglecting elderly veterans for years and years. Breaking news this hour, yet another scathing report about the V.A. amid CNN's investigation into this growing scandal. The Office of Special Council sent a startling new letter straight to the White House outlining whistle-blower complaints at 10 V.A. hospitals across the country.

Senior investigative correspondent Drew Griffin has been on the case. He joins me live now with the latest. And joining him is CNN legal analyst Paul Callan, a criminal defense attorney and a former prosecutor who's got a few thoughts on these latest very bad pieces of information.

Drew, I want to start with you though. Outline how bad this really is.

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: I think the bottom line here of how bad it is, is the fact that all those problems you mentioned, Ashleigh, the V.A. itself says, you know, they were bad but, really, the health of patients wasn't really harmed. And that's what this Office of Special Counsel is sending a red flag to the president. The Office of Special Counsel is a group of government prosecutors, independent, where whistle-blowers inside the government go for protection and go to blow the whistle. They have had so many complaints coming from inside the V.A.s. As you

mentioned, 10 hospitals they outline in this letter. Ten V.A. hospitals across the country where there have been, according to the Office of Special Counsel, severe problems with the health and safety of patients. Yet, not a single one of those V.A. hospitals did the V.A. agree with that. The Office of Special Counsel has 50 pending cases alleging threats to patient health or safety.

Let me give you an example of one case. Brockton, Massachusetts, a veteran with chronic mental illness checks into a Brockton, Massachusetts, V.A. facility in 2003, doesn't receive psychiatric evaluation until 2011. Eight years later. Despite that fact, the V.A. says, you know what, probably not any harm done to this patient. The OSC says the V.A. is routinely saying that these problems, although they are problems, are not affecting patient care and the Office of Special Counsel says there's no way. No way.

BANFIELD: Drew, it doesn't make sense, I don't - I do not understand how this report can say one thing and then completely say another. That these are horrific problems. But, you know, everyone's OK.

GRIFFIN: Right.

BANFIELD: How does that work?

GRIFFIN: This is what the Office of Special Counsel is saying to the president now. Let's go beyond the V.A. Let's go to the president. Mr. President, President Obama, we, the special prosecutors, in these cases, the prosecutors assigned to help the whistle-blowers, no longer trust the V.A. to investigate itself. That is the bottom line, Ashleigh, of this letter that was sent to the president today.

BANFIELD: And, Drew, I thought I heard you say, correct me if I'm wrong, but this is just regarding 10 hospitals. Aren't we into the 20s, 30s? I mean how many hospitals now are on the list? I lose count because they just - they just increase daily it seems.

GRIFFIN: Right. Right. Well, you're dealing -- these are - these are actual medical problems at these hospitals. The weight list problems, the accounting, the funding of the numbers, that's going on across the country and dozens and dozens of cases are being investigated there. So you've really got a V.A. that is in turmoil right now on many different fronts.

BANFIELD: It's unbelievable. Drew Griffin, again, stellar work. Thank you for that. Drew joining us live.

And Paul Callan weighing in on this as well.

I have an expression in the private sector when someone does things that are listed so egregiously wrong in this report, bring your wheelbarrow, because it effectively means, I'm going to sue you, I'm going to win, and I'm going to win a lot. But it's different when it's the V.A. It's not a private hospital. How does this shake out and what can these people do for recourse? PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you know, Ashleigh, this is a

shocking report. It's a staggering record of neglect. It's almost like a medical facility was created to go to war on our veterans. One of the other things that came up in the report that struck me, there was a creation of what are called ghost clinics. You're being treated, you need desperate - you need follow-up care, and they refer you to a facility that has no staff to treat you. The patient arrives and has no place to get treated. In the private sector what would happen, medical malpractice lawsuit.

Now, it's much harder to bring one in the federal system. Under the federal tort (ph) claims act, it can only be brought within two years of you having reason to know you have the right to sue. So many of these veterans are blocked out of court because their cases are old and only now is the neglect being disclosed.

BANFIELD: And do they have the same barometer for determining what neglect really is? So often when you want to sue the government, especially if you want to sue, you know, prosecutors, et cetera, you just can't. There's this immunity. And you have to prove this higher sort of maliciousness. Is that -- any of that exist as well in the V.A. system, where these guys are really going to get cut out even if they try?

CALLAN: Well, no, they can win these cases. They have to prove that they've only now become aware of the medical malpractice. But they have to prove that they were damaged by medical negligence. And the standard is basically the same, but it's tried in federal courts. There are federal prosecutors defending the government. And so it's a different thing than in the state courts where you tend to get much higher awards (ph).

BANFIELD: Well, let's just hope that they get care. Let's start there. We're not even talking about the awards, we're just talking about reestablishing some semblance of care for this community.

Paul Callan, stay put, if you will. Thank you for that.

And by the way, that's not the end of it. We're going to be watching for "AC 360" tonight at 8:00 p.m. Eastern because, yes, there are some brand-new startling pieces of information from a whistle-blower inside the Phoenix V.A. hospital. And Drew Griffin is going to have that tonight on Anderson's program. So stay tuned. It just keeps coming.

One of our other big stories today, Iraq under attack as terrorist militants get closer and closer to Baghdad. U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry just goes there. He goes there. He meets with Iraq's prime minister. How do you suppose that went? Details on what Kerry said about America's mission in Iraq and how things have changed. How that man on the right is no longer anything like what he was three years ago. We'll tell you about that in a moment.

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BANFIELD: Secretary of State John Kerry in Baghdad today for critical talks with Iraqi leaders. And he says military action will not wait for political settlement, stressing the imminent threat that Iraq is facing from the radical militant group ISIS. Kerry is urging the Iraqis to put aside their sectarian differences and create a new and more inclusive government.

Today's meetings could determine how deeply involved America is willing to get in the fight against radical ISIS militants capturing city after city as we speak, as they advance on the capital of Baghdad. Take a look. That's a bad looking map. ISIS has seized more towns in the western part of the country, including, and this is key, two key border crossings with Syria and Jordan. CNN's Kate Bolduan spoke with President Obama, who says the U.S. is willing to help if Iraqi leaders can work together.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KATE BOLDUAN, ANCHOR, CNN'S "NEW DAY": But by going in to the country to support the - this Iraqi government, to support Iraqi forces now, there's a real risk that you will very well likely be seen as supporting that Shiite side. Isn't that inflaming the tension further and thus doing exactly what ISIS wants?

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Yes, actually not because the terms in which we're willing to go in as advisers initially is to do an assessment of, do they still have a functioning chain of command and is their military still capable. But what we've also said is, is that, if we don't see Sunni, Shia and Kurd representation in the military command structure, if we don't see Sunni, Shia and Kurd political support for what we're doing, then we won't do it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: CNN's Jim Sciutto is traveling with the secretary of state in Iraq and he filed this on the latest visit. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Secretary Kerry coming to Iraq at a time of extreme anxiety, say U.S. officials, among Iraqi leader. They are fearful for the survival of their country. They're fearful for their own lives.

Now, I've been coming here for 11 years and I've never seen it this bad here. This is the challenge that Secretary Kerry, the Iraqis, the international community, has right now. And Secretary Kerry delivering two messages to the Iraqis. One, the U.S. stands by Iraq. It will help where it can militarily, diplomatically, politically. But also, two, that Iraq, by itself, has to get its political house in order.

While in Iraq, here's what Secretary Kerry said, speaking to reporters.

JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: Iraq faces an existential threat and Iraq's leaders have to meet that threat with the incredible urgency that it demands. The very future of Iraq depends on choices that will be made in the next days and weeks. And the future of Iraq depends primarily on the ability of Iraq's leaders to come together and take a stand united against ISIL.

SCIUTTO: U.S. officials emphasize a point that not only are the divisions among Iraq's disparate groups, the Sunnis, the Shia, the Kurds, but even within them. There are competing candidates within the Shia, within the Sunni, for leadership and the Iraqi leaders have to get through that political process to develop the unified government that U.S. officials believe they truly need.

The other problem with the Iraqi military, at this point, they're just defending as best they can Iraq, the southern part of the country, but can they gain back the territory that ISIS has already taken over? And U.S. assessments have shown that this is not a military today that's capable of that kind of offensive. Playing defense is one thing. Offense, very much another. Another challenge going forward.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: Boy, among many. Jim Sciutto, thank you for that.

And joining me now to talk about the deteriorating situation in Iraq and what the United States can and maybe can't do to help is former Navy SEAL Chris Heben, who has done multiple tours in Iraq, and CNN military analyst Colonel Rick Francona, former CIA and also Defense Intelligence Agency member.

All right, first to you, colonel. The issue with taking more territory, I don't think that maybe surprises anybody, except for where? When you start heading towards the border with Jordan, that's troublesome.

LT. COL. RICK FRANCONA, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes. We -- initially we saw them come down the Tigris valley, come down the Euphrates valley, converging on Baghdad. And then they took a turn to the southwest and they secured the town of Elripa (ph), which is kind of the primary center out there for transportation. That's where the roads go into Syria and that's where the main border crossing into Jordan is. They're now in control of that. And it appears to me, and we were talking about this earlier, I think they've ceded control of the entire western part of the country to ISIS.

BANFIELD: So effectively the route that for 11 years pretty much anyone who doesn't have special gear like y'all have, that's the route they come into the country -

CHRIS HEBEN, FORMER NAVY SEAL: Right.

BANFIELD: Is over the Jordanian border and across that way. And all - I'm assuming it's shut down. So when the president says, Chris, we need to get our guys on the ground, these are guys like you -

HEBEN: Right.

BANFIELD: We need to get our guys on the ground to establish command and control, what is he saying?

HEBEN: Well, I think he's saying that we need to get guys in there and observe, but I would say that, that's not the right thing to do. They have to mobilize these forces and stop these advances, immediately, and the way you do that is by embedding highly trained special forces guys to motivate them and take place in combat --

BANFIELD: How do you motivate guys who are throwing their weapons down and running? They've got one week's training, apparently, a lot of these guys.

HEBEN: It's sad, but having a spec ops presence there embedded with your men is an immediate chest-thumping event, and it gives these guys the belief in themselves, and that's what has to happen. It's very evident right now from what we've seen, what the colonel just said that all these decisive military moves, someone has been to a lot of war college training and experience. These are very decisive moves.

BANFIELD: Yeah. And are they also looking for command and control on the other side too?

HEBEN: Absolutely. The advisers are looking at the Iraqi force, but they're also looking at the ISIS guys.

BANFIELD: So one of the things that's just sort of come out is the U.S. is really -- and this makes complete sense, Colonel. They're really concerned about the notion that these Iraqis have, up until now, been deserting at these ridiculous levels.

They've been replaced by volunteers who got a week's training who may very well do the same thing but even quicker, and we're giving them weapons and ammo?

FRANCONA: Four divisions out of 14 have gone away. That's a tremendous amount of loss to absorb so quickly. Where did they go? They've just gone back home, and they've deserted. And you're not going to replace them with these militias. As you said, they don't have the training.

But it doesn't appear the Iraqi government has the will to go out and fight these people yet. They're pulled back to Baghdad. They're going to make the defense of Baghdad. And they've drawn the line there. This just plays right into what ISIS is trying to do.

BANFIELD: I don't understand -- and, Chris, look, I know you've spent a lot of time in various different roles, not only as a SEAL but also as a contractor, doing your work in Iraq. You have a pretty intimate knowledge of how these guys operate.

How are the Iraqi soldiers so different from the ISIS soldiers? Because they all come from the same breed. Why is one so fierce and one so scared?

HEBEN: Well, I think right now, the huge population there in Iraq is made up of the Shiites, but the Sunnis -- ISIS is predominantly Sunni, so what you're seeing right now is anyone of Sunni descent, anyone of Sunni alliances, is aligning themselves with ISIS right now.

I think it's a marriage of convenience. We've heard the term in Arabic, it's (speaking foreign language), which basically means the enemy of my enemy is my friend. And that's what is happening. It's a marriage of convenience.

All these Iraqi deserters have dropped key pieces of equipment and weapons. They've hauled butt out of there, so right now there's this glut of weaponry and equipment that's relatively new and the is guys have taken control of this which makes them very effective.

Once the Sunnis allow ISIS to come in and rid themselves of the Shiite issue, I think the Sunnis are going to detach themselves from ISIS.

BANFIELD: Curious to know if 300 guys are going to do enough chest thumping --

FRANCONA: And the divorce is coming.

HEBEN: The divorce is coming, yeah.

BANFIELD: I think that's the key closer.

Rick Francona, as always, love having you. Chris Heben, thank you for your insight as well.

And by the way, we've got a lot of other things that we're working on. Another story, a disturbing new report in the Jerry Sandusky child molestation case. If you thought that was over, wait for it, prosecutors apparently waiting far too long to bring the charges against the former Penn State assistant football coach.

And guess what happened in the interim, yeah, lots of abuse. We'll talk about it in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: It took simply too long to bring convicted child sex abuser Jerry Sandusky to trial. That's not me talking. That's a just released report, and this is the size of it, so you know, it's not thin; it's pretty detailed.

And it's from the Pennsylvania attorney general, and it says about this case of the former Penn state assistant football coach that lots things went wrong.

Here's where we need to give you caveat, though. There's some politics here. The attorney general Kathleen Kane is a Democrat. Her reports targets the former A.G., Tom Corbett. You guessed it. He's a Republican, and he also now happens to be in a tough reelection race for governor, current governor now.

It took prosecutors three years after the very first complaint about Sandusky before they even filed a charge. The report says, quote, "took too long because of crucial missteps and delays." Sandusky is serving a long prison sentence after his conviction for sexually abusing 10 boys.

Sara Ganim won a Pulitzer prize for her reporting on this, and she's now with me in our Washington newsroom. Here with me in New York is CNN legal analyst Paul Callan, who knows a thing or two about things like this, the politics behind them and the legal ramifications.

Sara, first to you, though, this report, it's remarkable to see this, to see the depth and the breadth of it all, to see the wrongdoing, but at the same time, it makes me wonder, is it going to make any difference? Is this going to yield anything? Is anyone going to get in trouble?

SARA GANIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, that's a great question, because I think one of the most important points here is what she didn't find. She did not find any evidence that there was any political reason, any political bias, that made this investigation stall.

But as you showed, I mean, this is a huge report, more than 300 pages, and it goes through every step of that investigation. And what they did find is that there was so much miscommunication, so many times that investigators did not use the correct techniques, did not go issue subpoenas when they should have, interviews when they should have.

I want to give you just a few examples, I think the two that stood out to me the most. Back in 2009, when Jerry Sandusky's first victim came forward, a social worker actually convinced him to do an interview to talk, but that social worker never told the police, so the police weren't there for the interview.

And guess what? He stopped talking after that. He never again gave another interview to any investigator except that social worker back in 2009.

And then after that, there were just months and months and months where police were looking for additional victims but not in the right places. One example, there was a 1998 police report that was at Penn State police. It was in the police headquarters. And investigators, it took them two years to find it.

This is an older report that would have, you know, showed prior victims, and they took two years just to find that report.

I want you to take a listen to what the attorney general, the current attorney general, Kathleen Kane, had to say this morning when she was talking about this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KATHLEEN KANE, PENNSYLVANIA ATTORNEY GENERAL: This report found no direct evidence, no e-mail, no confession, no statement from anybody indicating that they were told to slow this down because of politics.

This report also shows long periods of inexcusable -- and by inexcusable, I mean that even the parties involved couldn't offer an excuse for the delays, and delays that, quite honestly, are unfathomable to most of us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GANIM: Bow you talk about will heads roll? You know, the report makes recommendations on how to better handle cases of child sex abuse in the future. But, you know, everyone was given a chance to respond, but they don't make any allegations that any of this was actually malicious.

Ashleigh?

BANFIELD: What about Joe Paterno? With all these 400 and what -- 340 pages, something like that, anything in there about Joe Paterno?

GANIM: As far as I can see, he was mentioned just once, and it was in passing. They did not address the issue, which is a really hot topic within the state of Pennsylvania, people talk about this all the time.

This is a huge issue, whether or not he did the right thing, and also whether or not Penn State did the right thing when they fired him. It's a huge topic within state, and this was not addressed at all. She did not talk about her feelings on how he acted or what should have happened in that area.

BANFIELD: Stand by for a second. This blows my mind that that's part of this issue.

But I want to bring in Paul Callan on this as well. So, sir, I'm going to hand you -- there you go, Counselor. I looked at that and I sort of thought, it's just insult to injury. But it's not going to mean one thing for all of those kids who were attacked, is it?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I hope that it does because what it draws attention to is the fact that you have this enormous bureaucracy that's investigating and charged to investigate child abuse cases.

You have a child molester. You have a prosecutor who recommended an indictment, and the bureaucracy walks away from it and spends more time investigating.

Now, the report says there's no, quote, "direct evidence" of political involvement. I was looking at the statistics involving Penn State, over 45,000 students on that campus, over or close to 500,000 alumni, many of whom, more than 250,000 Pennsylvania voters. So you know the indirect influence is that they were afraid to upset the political apple cart by indicting Joe Paterno's favorite coach.

BANFIELD: Maybe at the very least, there'll be some changes that are instituted after this.

CALLAN: I hope so.

BANFIELD: Let's hope they don't waste all this paper and all the work behind it. And you know? I hope those victims get some sort of satisfaction, at least from the words themselves.

Paul Callan, thank you, as always. Nice to see you.

CALLAN: Thank you. And Sara Ganim, excellent work as usual, there's a reason you won a Pulitzer. You're an excellent reporter. It's good to have you on the program. Thank you.

After nearly five years of being held as a POW by the Taliban and then several weeks in addition being held in a military hospital, Bowe Bergdahl is now being treated as an outpatient. And here's the strange part. He may be an outpatient, but he has yet to see his own parents yet. We're coming up now on week four. Yeah, I was a little confused by this too.

We'll have the latest on the case, after this.

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