Return to Transcripts main page

CNN NEWSROOM

Sentencing Hearing for Ohio Kidnapper; Live Coverage of the Courtroom

Aired August 1, 2013 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DOUGLAS BERMAN, PROFESSOR OF LAW, OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY: Oh, absolutely. And my sense is the prosecutors recognize that because of the plea deal, this is their one opportunity to lay before the court and really the state and the nation and the world kind of all of the specifics of this just almost inconceivable crime.

And I think that's part of what they're trying to make sure gets done through this presentation, that the lasting image is not of just Ariel Castro apologizing or saying whatever he plans to say. But of showcasing to the world just, you know, how horrific this crime and all of its consequences were, which, you know, candidly, it's still hard for me to get my mind completely around.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: I'm sure a lot of people are with you, Douglas -- I am.

For prosecutors, though, Tanya, they're walking this fine line, because they can't let too many details out, right?

TANYA MILLER, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, I mean, there's probably a limit, as far as the judge is concerned. I mean, this isn't a trial, so, you know, you can't put up the entire trial in a sentencing hearing.

But I agree with the professor. I mean, this is history. This is an important case to this community. And the world wants to know. Criminal proceedings are public proceedings. These prosecutors are public servants. Tim McGinty is an elected district attorney and what he's doing right now, he's telling his constituents, look, this is the work that we did in this case. We were ready to go.

COSTELLO: All right. Let's listen to this testimony. This is a former detective and he's talking about Amanda Berry. Let's listen.

(BEGIN LIVE FEED)

DET. ANDREW HARASIMCHUK, SEX CRIMES UNIT: At this time Ariel Castro physically restrained her with a chain that was attached to a center support pole in the basement, put plastic ties on her wrists. It was at this time that Gina De Jesus was first sexually assaulted. During this interview, Georgina De Jesus described a repeated pattern being sexually, physically and emotionally assaulted by Ariel Castro during the entire time she was held captive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And she's telling about the escape on May 2nd? HARASIMCHUK: She did she said on May 6th, 2013 when they escaped she heard Jocelyn Berry running up and down the stairs saying "Daddy left, went to grandma's house." She states that she was just going to lay still and not do anything. Because she is afraid it could be a trap. And that Ariel Castro could be outside waiting for her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So now you've wrapped up your interviews at Metro, you've got a snapshot of the incredible story of survival, right?

HARASIMCUK: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And how do you continue your investigation? What you do?

HARASIMCHUK: I interviewed Ariel Castro. I visited the crime scene. I read dozens of reports that were completed by various law enforcement agencies, I examined hundreds of photographs. I reviewed hundreds of pieces of physical evidence that were taken from the house. I conducted follow-up interviews with the victims. I reviewed written materials kept by the victims during their years of captivity. I consulted with prosecutors' office.

(END LIVE FEED)

COSTELLO: All right. That was that former detective testifying moments ago, telling or informing the court and all listening some of the horrors that went on inside that house.

Page Pate, you had an interesting thought while we were listening to that detective. He said this could all backfire for the state of Ohio. Why?

PAGE PATE, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Right well you can go too far. I understand the district attorney wants to get all of this evidence out in front of the people, everybody can see how bad this guy is. But some folks may start asking themselves, look, if he's this bad, if what he did was this awful, why did you let him plea? Why aren't we pursuing the death penalty in this case?

So you've got to walk a fine line. Let people know what happened but don't push it so much that your deal looks like a bad deal for the people of this state.

COSTELLO: Well, you know, we suppose that the state of Ohio agreed to this plea deal to spare the victims more pain, right? But you're right. As you listen to this, you do wonder.

And Doctor Jeff, I'm sure the victims were consulted before this plea deal was agreed upon by all parties. But still --

JEFF GARDERE, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, yes. I'm sure they were consulted. But remember when they put that video out, Carol, they talked about the fact that they wanted to move on and Michelle Knight in particular very strongly said that she had forgiven this monster, not so much for him, but for herself so that she could move on. And that's the important thing here. These women do not want to go through this whole trial, this whole process. And so they are willing to move on. And part of that is this plea deal.

COSTELLO: Ok. On the stand right now is an FBI -- FBI agent, because the FBI was called into this case, because it involved kidnapping. So he is talking about arriving at the house -- and you can see the image there.

So let's listen to what he has to say.

(BEGIN LIVE FEED)

ANDREW BURKE, FBI AGENT: Perimeter further up the street in both directions. There was a Cleveland EMS Unit stationed in front of the house. Detective Graves took me to the back of the ambulance and when they opened the door, inside the ambulance was immediately recognizable to me to be Gina De Jesus and Amanda Berry. I did not have the familiarity with Michelle Knight, but I also noticed her as well as Amanda Berry's daughter.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does that moment stand out for you as an investigator?

BURKE: I'll never forget it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you have any conversation with them at that moment?

BURKE: My conversation was very limited at that point.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where did you turn your attention?

BURKE: My attention turned to making sure that the scene had been secured and then to the investigation that was to ensue.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As the agent on-scene, representing the crime task force, did you have resources at your disposal that you could activate?

BURKE: I did.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tell us about that.

BURKE: We notified the task force basically an all-call. Everybody was needed. Made the appropriate notifications through my chain of command and we requested the assistance of our evidence response team, that would be the FBI's evidence response team, through our team leader Special Agent Chris Garnett. We had a task force officer, John Morgan, who is a Cuyahoga County Sheriff's Deputy begin writing warrants for --

(END LIVE FEED)

COSTELLO: All right we're going to step away and take a break. We'll be back with more from Cleveland. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: I'm Carol Costello. Welcome back. As you can see, testimony continues in the sentencing hearing of Ariel Castro. This is an FBI agent he's talking about collection of evidence and technicalities. And while we have this chance, I want to head live to Cleveland and check in with Pamela Brown.

Pamela, just a short time ago in court, a gun was shown. This is a gun belonging to Ariel Castro. This is sort of the first time we have heard that he threatened these women repeatedly with this weapon, isn't it?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is. We saw the memorandum last night from the prosecutors and in that memorandum, the presentencing documents, basically it said that Castro held a gun, that he kept one in the home and used it to threaten the girls and told them that basically he would kill them if they ever tried to escape. And as you mentioned today in court, they actually showed that gun. It's clear from the prosecution side that they're doing everything they can to bring that evidence forward, show it to the judge, so that this gets on the record here.

The information we're hearing has really been stunning, and disturbing. We've known a lot of the horrific details, Carol, but now we're hearing from one of the first responders who is on the scene, the first woman that these women saw in more than ten years, Barbara Johnson. And she talked about when she saw Michelle Knight and Gina De Jesus and she walked in the home, they were so pale, so thin, she didn't even recognize them. And she said that Michelle Knight looks like a little girl.

Which we heard from the doctor who treated them in the ER Room who said they were distraught, they were scared, they were very thin and they didn't really know how to react to all the attention of people coming in and hugging them.

So we're really getting insight into what these women went through and those moments right after they escaped and were rescued. We also heard from an investigator talking about the chains that Ariel Castro used to bound them. And one of the investigators said they were restrained for most of the time in the home. He said the chains were 99 feet long and all together weighed about 92 pounds. Just to give you an idea, it's just incredible to hear this, Carol.

COSTELLO: I know. And there are more horrific details to come, just a warning. It's just unbelievable.

Let's talk a little bit about Michelle Knight, Pamela, because she may appear physically in the courtroom. Have you seen any sign of her yet?

BROWN: We haven't seen any sign of her yet. It's not yet time for her to make an impact statement if she is going to. Of course, my sources tell me that one of the women is expected to make an impact statement and we're hearing that will be Michelle Knight. We were told yesterday -- actually, last night, that no one had requested for the video conference. So that is an indication that if she does make an impact statement, she will actually face Ariel Castro in court.

Of course, as we have been hearing today, Michelle Knight endured the worst abuse of the three women. She was the one that was pregnant and Ariel Castro killed her unborn baby by jumping on her stomach, giving her rotten food, as one of the investigators said.

And so it's really incredible to think that she could be facing Castro and you can imagine how empowering this could be for her to do so. We've learned that Amanda Berry and Gina De Jesus will not be attending today's sentencing. They will be represented by family members --

COSTELLO: Can I interrupt you for just a second, Pamela, because something interesting in court is happening.

BROWN: Sure.

COSTELLO: This FBI agent is talking about the model of Ariel Castro's house. Let's listen.

(BEGIN LIVE FEED)

BURKE: -- they constructed this house as a scale model. One to inch and one foot basically to scale.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the room colors that we see, at least in the visible portion today, are they an attempt to match the actual room colors in part because of how the victims described what room they were in by room color?

BURKE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you have an opportunity to go through the interior of 2207 Seymour?

BURKE: Yes on multiple occasions, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When was the first time?

BURKE: I would say the first time was either the following day or maybe the day after their escape.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Describe that experience.

BURKE: Well, it was -- it was surreal to me. I've been involved in the missing person's investigations for quite some time. And so it was a difficult experience. That's basically how I would describe it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you for your own benefit go through all levels of the home -- basement, first floor, second floor, attic?

BURKE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you cover what you saw there in terms of the mechanism of captivity, for the lack of the better term. How Mr. Castro had turned this residence into a prison?

BURKE: When I first went through the home, our evidence response team had collected a significant number of items, more than 300 items of evidence so some of the physical restraints had been removed. Most of the physical restraints had been removed. But I was taken through the house by Special Agent Garnett, who pointed out specific locations where these restraints had been attached.

There were a number of modifications to the interior of the home to fortify certain areas. Those were easily visible on inspection. There were divisions between spaces in the house that were, again, designed not only to make the house more secure for its occupants, but also to hide I think the existence of additional rooms in the house.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would like to turn your attention to the monitor before you. Do you recognize that view of a door that's before you?

BURKE: That's the front door. It's an interior photograph, obviously. You're looking at the inside of the front door.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm going to reference this as state's 10-H. What -- what are the items that are hanging on the door, to your knowledge?

BURKE: Those are a series of alarm clocks. And they are wired in a makeshift manner to create a -- essentially an alarm system to the house.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the white wire that we see, do you know where that white wire traveled through the house?

BURKE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where did it travel to?

BURKE: It went from this front alarm contraption all the way to the back door.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And was there similar wiring at the back door?

BURKE: There was a contact switch at the back door that appeared that it would it activate this alarm.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. Can you give us a general description of other things that you found on the first floor?

BURKE: On the first floor, there was a -- kind of a heavy curtain or maybe even like a bed spread that separated the kitchen from the rest of the living area. Unusual for the layout of this particular house was that what would be considered the dining room had been turned into a bedroom. So there was a large probably queen size mattress where the dining room would typically be.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, if you could turn your attention to the floor model here. And you see this article?

BURKE: Yes. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you recognize what this is intended to represent?

BURKE: It's intended to represent a porch swing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where was it located in the home?

BURKE: That was essentially where it is in the model at this point.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At the base of the landing of the staircase leading to the second floor?

BURKE: That's correct.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did it act as an obstacle for people in the stairs?

BURKE: Certainly.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Turning your attention to the monitor, what's shown?

BURKE: This is a photograph of the only bathroom in the home. It's referenced as Room D, and the FBI evidence sketch that's on the first floor attached to the kitchen.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you recognize this photo which I'll reference as state's 10-J?

BURKE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is it?

BURKE: This is the view from the landing at the -- after the first set of steps as you go up from the first floor. There's a turn, and then you go up another set of steps before you reach the second floor. So this is the landing between the first and second floors. At the top of the image is a brown curtain and the curtain was concealing the landing to the second floor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. So it's a little bit hard to see, but in terms of the model that would be in the center of the second floor at the top of that staircase.

BURKE: That's correct.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And was this also a heavy material?

BURKE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Next photo, please. This next shot, is that from the top of the staircase looking down?

BURKE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's just another representation of that curtain hanging over the top of that staircase.

BURKE: Yes. As Officer Johnson presented that she had to push away a curtain. This is the curtain she would have been referring to.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: State's 10-l. Do you recognize the view on the monitor?

BURKE: I do.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you tell us what it is?

BURKE: This is a view from the hallway in the second floor of the room that was labeled -- I believe it's room I. And that is the room that the investigation showed Amanda Berry and her daughter spent the majority of their time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So turning to state's 20, this schematic layout of each floor of the home, it would be referencing this front bedroom on the second floor, is that correct? Labeled I?

BURKE: That's correct.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you describe the status or the condition or the unusual nature of the bedroom door itself?

BURKE: Yes. The door had obviously been modified by the picture here. There's a handle on the outside that's screwed in. It functions to be able to hold the door closed as there's no doorknob attached to either the inside or the outside.

There is a -- an i-bolt -- hard to see here. But there is a slide lock and underneath it a small i-bolt that marries up with an i-bolt in the doorjamb so that one could secure the door from the outside with a lock. And then there's a hole cut in the bottom panel there, which was later determined to be a source of ventilation for the room.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why was ventilation needed? Weren't there windows in that room?

BURKE: There were windows, but they were boarded up from the inside.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what were they boarded up with, if you know?

BURKE: It appears that they're closet doors, very heavy -- full thickness, wooden closet doors.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Turning to State's 10-N can you see a portion of those closet doors behind the fabric from the far wall there?

BURKE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Those are the white panel doors, correct?

BURKE: Correct.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This next photo, what is that? BURKE: That's an interior shot of that room, Room I.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what are those items on the wall, if you know.

BURKE: Those are workbook pages. Child workbook pages.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Next photo, please. 10-P. Does this then show the closet doors nailed across the two windows in that room, Room I?

BURKE: It does.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now off of this room, there was a separate room that adjoined it, correct?

BURKE: Correct.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, would you agree that the approximate dimensions of the first room were 11 1/2 by 11 1/2 feet?

BURKE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the second room was approximately 7-foot,2 inches by, again, 11 1/2 feet, approximately?

BURKE: Correct.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the course of the investigation, what did you learn as to who occupied the first room that we saw as we entered through the door with the hole in it? Who occupied that room?

BURKE: That would have been Amanda Berry and her daughter.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ok. And then the smaller adjoining was occupied by whom?

BURKE: Michelle Knight and Gina Dejesus.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And we're currently looking at a photograph in the bedroom and the small adjoining room (inaudible). Who shared that bed?

BURKE: That's -- in the room where Amanda -- I'm sorry, Gina Dejesus and Michelle Knight were.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Next slide. And there the window in that small adjoining room was there any construction as to that window?

BURKE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you describe it?

BURKE: Underneath what's clearly shown on the photograph as a sheet, underneath that is a very thick wooden panel that was screwed in.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Next photo. And apparently what's on the -- is there a commode there present in the room? BURKE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And does that then show -- the fabric pulled back to show the heavy board over the window?

BURKE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Next photo, please.

Do you see the photo that's before you?

BURKE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'll reference this as state's 10-W. What does this show?

BURKE: That's a chain. It's in the room that Amanda -- I'm sorry, Gina Dejesus and Michelle Knight shared.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Next photo. State's 10-X. What does this photo depict?

BURKE: That is a hole through the wall. I believe there were photos on the side of Gina and Michelle's room through theirs running a power cord that's plugged in, in the other room, and the chain.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, for that small side room, the 7 x 11 room with the window nailed shut, was there any attempt to provide ventilation in that small space?

BURKE: There was a small cut-out in the ceiling, and a box fan in the attic.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So the actual plaster was cut away, an opening made, and some electrical service to the attic was provided for the fan.

BURKE: Correct.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Next photo. I'm showing you state's 10-Y. Do you recognize what's shown there?

BURKE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is it?

BURKE: Chains, locks.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know generally where those were found?

BURKE: Those were found in the upstairs bedrooms.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Next photo. We're now on state's 10-Z we're in the basement. What is the significance of this photo?

BURKE: This is a view from the bottom of the stairs. The stairs are slightly visible at the far right margin of the photograph. And you're looking in a southerly direction through the house, basically the long axis of the house. On the left side of the frame is a support pole. That's a pole that we have come to understand that the women were restrained to at various points.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Next photo please. Now, there's two things I would like you to talk about in this photo, 10-AA. The center pole and that rear-most washing machine. Why are they of significance?

BURKE: Well, again, the pole as what the investigation has shown was used to restrain the women in the early stages of captivity. And the washing machine at the far end, a significant amount of cash was found sequestered in the washing machine.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know how the team collected the evidence? Had any indication to look for cash in the washing machine?

BURKE: They were directed there by Ariel Castro.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Next photo, please. And you see the depiction of a written document found I believe near the kitchen counter sitting. Are you familiar with that document that's roughly dated 4-4 of 2004?

BURKE: I am.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what do you know that to be?

BURKE: I know that to be a letter written by Ariel Castro.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm going to reference that as state's exhibit 12. Now, does Mr. Castro talk about his conduct in that document?

BURKE: He does.

Does he describe himself through his own choice of words as "I am a sexual predator"?

BURKE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does he describe his victimization of the women in this case?

BURKE: To some degree, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's back up. Seeing that slide before you right now, is that the actual page where it says "I am a sexual predator."

BURKE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Next slide. Now, before you is a photograph of a full-face motorcycle helmet. How many motorcycles did you know Mr. Castro to own?

BURKE: Multiple motorcycles.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How many helmets? BURKE: There were also multiple helmets.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fair to say many more helmets than there were motorcycles at the time of the investigation of the scene?

BURKE: Fair to say, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This item here, this light brown wig. Is there any significance (ph) in the investigation?

BURKE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In what manner?

BURKE: The investigation showed that the limited number of times that some of the survivors were allowed outside they were instructed to wear a wig, or a wig and multiple other elements of disguise.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now moving away from the photographs for a moment, we talked about some cash that was found in the house. Did Mr. Castro use his assets in terms of his cash money that he had on hand to run an internal bar economy, if you will, with his victims?

BURKE: On occasion.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And would he -- after sexually abusing them, throw money at them saying "Here, you're being paid for the sex".