Return to Transcripts main page

CNN NEWSROOM

Death Penalty Costs; Charles Manson, Lawyers & Audio Tapes; Putting Roe V. Wade to the Test.

Aired March 27, 2013 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR; I think a lot of death penalty advocates say, for heaven's sake, we keep these people alive forever. We've got to give them medical care. We've got to look after them. Put them in protective custody at time it's. Infinitely more difficult to keep them protected than just the death or the needle. The Constitution right, once they hear from a jury and judge that they're condemned to death, to an automatic appeal whether they want it or not, correct?

JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, IN SESSION ON TRUTV: That is exactly right. There is that automatic appeal. And the appeals can last for years. The average amount of year to be put to death in Arizona is 12 years. Isn't that interesting, think about the amount of litigation and appeals that goes on and for taxpayers to pay it. But in our country, we're determined, state by state, can determine if there is the ultimate punishment of death. And the argument -- I think one of the arguments against the death penalty is the cost. But does that then not allow for the justice that may be deserved in a particular case.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: You know, the penalty advocates, you know, they will be quick to point out, we do calculations on maybe 20 years of life imprisonment. But with health care technology, can live much, much longer. In California, $47,000 a year to keep someone in prison. It costs more in prison than in college. If you think about the costs, think of that for 25 years -- heart attacks, they treat people for cancer. You know, so the pro- death penalty advocates, they like to question these numbers and say it's more about justice for victims, not cost.

BANFIELD: And I also look at the people 26 year, sitting and waiting for their death penalty, all of a sudden, are exonerated because new magical science is applied to old stuffy, stodgy, stinky cases. It turns out those people were innocent all along. It doesn't happen a lot, but it does happen.

BANFIELD: Jean Casarez and Christine Romans, thank you.

(CROSSTALK)

CASAREZ: Ashleigh, in Arizona, three women on death row. One woman just had her case overturned. Case in point.

BANFIELD: And a guy just walked out here in New York City, 23 years, because the witness had been told by the police pick the guy with the big nose in the lineup. That happened so many years ago. Bad things happen to sometimes good people. It just happens.

Both of you, thank you. I want to have more of this conversation as we dig deeper into the death penalty.

I want to remind the viewers to watch the Jodi Arias trial live this afternoon. We run it on HLN and live on CNN.com.

We talked about California. How is Charles Manson for you?

Charles Manson back in the news. A death penalty/non-death penalty case. A federal judge has now ruled that police can now listen in to conversations between one of Manson's followers and his lawyers. Aren't those privileged conversations? A man and his lawyer. You'll hear our expert legal team tackle this one next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: He's been in prison for decades and he is most assuredly going to die there but cult leader turns mass murderer Charles Manson never really went away. In fact, just this week, a man named Craig Hammon, seen here, was arrested for allegedly trying to smuggle a cell phone into Manson in this California prison. Mr. Hammon says he's a follower of Manson, even moved closer to the prison so he could visit regularly, and that Manson even gave him a special name "Brave Wolf." He's been charged in connection with the cell phone crime.

Totally by coincidence. And I mean it, totally by coincidence, on the same day, in a related case, a federal judge has ordered that some taped conversations between another of Manson's followers, Charles "Tex" Watson, and Watson's attorney that those conversations be turned over to the LAPD. Again, a guy and his lawyer, taping those conversations, hands those tapes over to the LAPD. The officers believe it may have some theory to what may or may not be carried out by the Manson cult. Well, what about privilege?

CNN's legal analyst, Sunny Hostin, a former criminal prosecutor, and Joey Jackson, a criminal defense attorney and "In Session" contributor and professor. Smart guy.

Let me start with you, Joey, on the issue of privilege. There are some instances where your privilege goes away when you talk to a lawyer. Is that the case with Tex Watson?

JOEY JACKSON, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY & CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Oh, yes, it is. Here's why. The privilege is very important. Whenever you're conveying information to an attorney, you want it to be protected. What does that do? It ensures that you're going to be honest. You're going to be forthright so an attorney can assess your case and give advice. However, in this case, that privilege was waived. Watson waived it himself. Why? Because in part of a deal for a book and in waiving that and selling that to a third party to write a book, the judge said, ah, ah, you waived it, turn it over to the LAPD.

BANFIELD: That sale went through decades ago. So fascinating stuff. A lesson to all of us, you are in control of your own privilege. Share it, you lose it. Sunny, let me turn you on this weird cell phone thing. I'm going to ask the stupid question, how does somebody get a cell phone into Charles Manson, it's happened twice?

HOSTIN: It happened twice in 2009. Actually, I reported on it in 2011. They try to smuggle them in. We know there's contraband found daily in cells. I've got to tell you, when I've been prosecuting cases, there's contraband that gets into cells. It's very important that Charles Manson does not have a cell phone because we know the crux of what he does is he gets people to follow him. He gets people to do things for him. He has this --

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: Like murder? Like murder for him?

HOSTIN: This weird Svengali thing about him. So the last person on earth that needs a cell phone is Charles Manson. 2009, 2011, now again. It's shocking to me, isn't it --

BANFIELD: Yes.

HOSTIN: -- that he still has these followers.

BANFIELD: I find it more shocking that he has people following him and moving closer to visit him on a regular basis. That's just me. Call me crazy.

Thank you both.

Stick around if you will, I have a couple of other questions for you, because this is a great one. We've been spending so much time at the Supreme Court today on what we think is a cultural moment on gay marriage. Remember, Roe v. Wade was a cultural moment decades ago. Now, there's a governor in Virginia who is pushing buttons and putting to the test Roe v. Wade, an abortion law that's just been passed that effectively says to most women in that state, it's not going to happen. We'll explain that in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Today, as the Supreme Court considers a marriage law that makes history, North Dakota's governor has signed an anti-abortion law that challenges history, certainly challenging the boundaries of another case, Roe v. Wade. The new law there is going to ban abortions after six weeks, after a fetal heartbeat. Set for august, but not before a potential showdown in court. The governor is ready for the fight. He's putting money away for the fight.

Joey Jackson and Sunny Hostin are back to talk about the fight.

Can these laws survive the fight?

Sunny, let me begin with you, most assuredly, this is going to court. We already have plaintiffs. Can the bill survive? HOSTIN: You know, I always am loathe to predict what the Supreme Court will do. But I can tell you that I think this is something that would get to the Supreme Court. We know that there is going to be this legal challenge. In fact when the governor signed this law into law, he directed some funds -- he directed the state legislature put funds aside just for the legal battle. So we know it's going to be challenged. We know that it's probably going to be challenged into federal court. And that means it probably will wind its way into the Supremes.

And I've got to tell you, given the composition of the court, given sort of the changing composition of the court, it would be possible that a court would say, you know what, let the state do what they want to do. Even though in 19 -- what is it -- '73, Roe v. Wade found, yes, abortion is legal in all 50 states but it still allows the state to defend when it is legal and the parameters around it. And I suspect it's going to be challenged. And we'll be hearing about this case in probably years to come.

BANFIELD: Joey -- I betcha. The Center for Reproductive Rights, the organization, has said it's going to challenge. But in the meantime, what does that mean for someone in the state of North Dakota who says perhaps was raped or was a victim of incest? There are no protections for those people. Might there be an injunction, a stay that prohibits the law from going into law?

JACKSON: I think that's likely, Ashleigh. A litigant will go directly for that and say, listen, we have to balance this out. Of course, a woman has a right to choose. The state has a right to legislate abortion and protect rights. Additionally, they have a right to protect the mother. However, before we can litigate this and have a process, let's have a say. So what that will do is uphold the law in a definitive ruling tab.

I agree with Sunny, it's always impossible to predict what the Supreme Court is going to do. You never know how they'll assess a law. I think it's likely -- Ashleigh?

BANFIELD: I looked at some the statute. And what stood out to me, and maybe I'm not schooled enough to recognize whether this is a big issue or not, the target here for the criminal activity is a doctor.

JACKSON: The doctor.

HOSTIN: The doctor.

BANFIELD: It's not the woman. She's not even considered to be part of a conspiracy.

JACKSON: That's right.

BANFIELD: That seemed odd to me. Isn't it the woman who brings the issue forward and gets the ball set in motion for the crime to be committed under that law?

HOSTIN: Yes, but, Ashleigh, that has sort of been, you know, the way that these challenge -- these laws have always been challenged. The law that have that tried to limit abortions. They sometimes target the doctors because then women are forced to go where? They go to sort of those backdoor -- those alleys to get medical care. And so targeting the doctor is very effective. Because if you're a doctor and the state is telling you, you cannot perform abortions if there's a fetal heartbeat which is at what, six, seven weeks.

JACKSON: Yes.

HOSTIN: We've heard those heartbeats, you're not going to do it because you're not going to lose your license, so now where do the women go? So it's a very effective way, I think, of forcing women to the back alley.

JACKSON: But is it too effective and is it too restrictive? That's the question.

HOSTIN: That's the question.

BANFIELD: That's fascinating. I think you I understand are going to have a conversation before August that's for sure.

HOSTIN: Oh, yes.

(LAUGHTER)

BANFIELD: A conversation in about three days once the cases are filed.

Thank you, Sunny Hostin.

Thank you, Joey Jackson.

We're back in a minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: I don't think you get much argument if you suggested that multiple sclerosis is a disease debilitating enough to stop you from things you might want to do. Not so when it comes to playing in the NBA. I'm not kidding.

Sanjay Gupta met someone who is doing just that. And you're about to meet him too.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: With less than three minutes left in the game against the Atlanta Hawks, Dallas Mavericks point guard, Chris Wright, is in the game. Playing in the NBA has been his lifelong dream. But it almost didn't come true.

CHRIS WRIGHT, MAVERICKS POINT GUARD: Noticed my foot started getting numb and got progressively worse. The next morning I got up to shoot early in the morning probably 7:00 in the morning something like that I got up and shot and while I was shooting my whole right leg went numb. Right foot went numb. Basically it went all the way up to the right side of my body.

BANFIELD: Last year, Wright was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis, M.S., a disease that affects the brain and spinal cord, a disease he had never heard of.

WRIGHT: I didn't know what it was. I was just remaining positive about it. Once I found out, I still have to remain positive.

GUPTA: Doctors told Wright he would never play basketball again. But he responded well to treatment and less than three months after his diagnosis Wright was back on the court. He made history when he signed a 10-day contract with the Dallas Mavericks becoming the first person with M.S. to play in the NBA. While it may have only been a short stint, Wright believes this won't be the last time he'll play in the NBA.

WRIGHT: Everything happens for a reason. And everything you go through definitely it's not a coincidence. And it happened during M.S. Awareness Week.

GUPTA: Monthly treatments are keeping his M.S. from progressing and he's not shying away from his diagnosis. Wright says he's proud to be the face of M.S.

WRIGHT: Don't be afraid to step out and do what you want to do. That's my message to everyone that has M.S. Don't believe it's a crippling disease. Yes, there may be limitations, but you can still live your life. I'm a part of the M.S. Society. That's what I am.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN reporting.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: In Brunswick, Georgia, police have arrested the mother and the aunt of one of the teenager's accused of fatally shooting a 13- month-old baby and her mom. Both women are charged with lying to the authorities. After talking to the women, police ended up finding a gun in a nearby pond and now trying to determine if it is connected to the shooting. Two suspects are aged 17 and 15 and both are charged with murder.

Now, a story that will have you asking, how on earth did he survive? First, one of the firemen you see here was helping a victim in a car that was involved in a multi-vehicle accident. And without warning that car was hit by a vehicle that spun out of control on the ice. It was an ice-covered bridge. The fireman was thrown 25 feet into the air. He was hospitalized in guarded condition. Hard to make that out.

To China now and a bus driver who is lucky to be alive, literally. He was on a routine run when a lamp post suddenly smashed through his front windshield. Look at that. Ducking out of the way. Quick thinking. Pure reflex. He escaped what could have been horrifying. He did suffer an injury though, a ruptured spleen. The lamp post was knocked into the bus by an unrelated car accident. By the way, the passengers behind him, also a real near escape for them too, but nobody injured to our knowledge. Amazing.

Thank you for watching everyone. AROUND THE WORLD is up next right after this quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to AROUND THE WORLD. I'm Suzanne Malveaux.

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Michael Holmes. And welcome to our viewers both here in the United States and right around the world.