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CNN'S AMANPOUR

The Pope Resigns; A New Pope Will Be Chosen; The Catholic Church Endures

Aired February 28, 2013 - 15:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour, coming to you once again from Rome with the Vatican behind me. And tonight, its throne is sede vacante, an empty chair. And all the Twitter handles and, indeed, the Vatican website are now labeled sede vacante.

At 8:00 pm Rome time, the Swiss Guard quite literally closed the doors on the papacy of Benedict XVI at the summer home of Castel Gandolfo. He is officially pope no longer. The final moment of a remarkable day, the likes of which we have not seen nor have our ancestors seen in more than 700 years.

Earlier, the pope boarded a helicopter and we watched as it passed overhead and continued on above all the beautiful and eternal landmarks the world knows so well, landing at the pope's traditional summer residence in Castel Gandolfo. And that'll be Benedict's home for the next few months before he moves into a renovated apartment at the Vatican.

He stood in the window and bid a final farewell to a cheering crowd below and it's likely the last time we'll see him for months to come.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BENEDICT XVI, POPE EMERITUS (through translator): As I am no longer the pope, but I'm still in the church. I'm just a pilgrim who is starting the last part of his pilgrimage on this Earth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: And with that, he becomes pope emeritus. The next task for the Catholic Church will be choosing the next pontiff, most likely in time for Easter. And he must wrestle with how to lead the church forward and how to finally resolve the financial and sex abuse scandals that have rocked it for years.

Cardinals have gathered here in Rome from all over the world for the conclave. One of them is Cardinal Timothy Dolan, the Archbishop of New York and the most powerful American cardinal. We spoke earlier today about his personal farewell with Benedict, his hopes for the papacy to come in these challenging times.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Welcome.

CARDINAL TIMOTHY DOLAN, ARCHBISHOP OF N.Y.; PRESIDENT, U.S. CONFERENCE OF CATHOLIC BISHOPS: It's good to be with you. I appreciate the invitation. Thanks for your interest in all these events.

AMANPOUR: We are very interested and, you know, the whole world is interested in what transpires here because a pope is not just the head of the world's 1.2 billion Catholics, but whatever he says and does affects Catholics and non-Catholics.

Let me ask you first, we showed for the world the meeting of the cardinals with the pope today. You were amongst them, obviously. You were able to get some last-minute face time with this pope.

What was it like for you? What did you say to him?

DOLAN: It was very touching. And I don't mind admitting that it was kind of somber; it was kind of sad. I love him. We call him our Holy Father. I'll miss him. And that dawned on me today that that's the last time I'll see him as the pope.

This morning, Christiane, when I -- like every other priest in the world, when I offered mass and its tradition is, you know, during the mass, the most important prayer of the mass you say for Benedict our pope -- and I stopped because I thought that's the last time I'll say that.

So there was a touch of sadness there. He was -- first of all, I would tell you that seeing him yesterday at the audience -- you were there -- and seeing him today, it dawned on me how fragile he is. I was privileged to be with him for almost a month in October during what's called the synod of bishops.

And I could see that he had aged a bit, but, boy, oh boy, he still seemed to be very strong, very alert, very spry.

But yesterday and again today I saw that he was very, very frail. He didn't speak long. It was kind of a fraternal, informal meeting, the College of Cardinals and himself. He only spoke for maybe six or seven minutes.

I was extraordinarily moved, Christiane, when he said -- now you think about this; I don't know why I was surprised -- but when he said I look forward to giving my allegiance and my complete obedience to my successor.

AMANPOUR: I was precisely going to ask you about that, because he looked out and he said, "One of you perhaps -- "

(CROSSTALK)

DOLAN: One of you will be the next pope and I look forward to -- and I thought, my, oh my, now he -- now he will have a pope. He will have a Holy Father. And that was very moving to me to know that the life of the church goes on. Jesus provides for his church. There will be a new occupant to the chair of Peter.

When I went up, Christiane, you were kind enough to ask about the personal meeting. And I went up and, I, first of all, I started to introduce myself and he said, "Oh, I know who you are," and he called me by name. I like that when the boss knows your name.

AMANPOUR: Yes. Yes, indeedy.

(LAUGHTER)

DOLAN: And then I said, "Holy Father, can I just tell you I love you very much and I thank you. And I'm praying with you and for you and I speak on behalf of all the people of the Archdiocese of New York."

And he said to me, "Well, I thank you." And he said "I remember my visit to New York."

AMANPOUR: Well, that's wonderful.

DOLAN: So it was -- it was very moving, Christiane.

AMANPOUR: That is wonderful. And, of course I need to ask you now, in that vein, are you going to be the next pope? You are on many people's lists of frontrunners.

DOLAN: Well, I've been on my mom's list for a while. But I don't know how many other lists that I've been on.

But I don't think so. As you know -- you're a pro -- that's tough for us to talk about and it's uncomfortable to talk about. I'm flattered that you would even think that, but I don't think that's a possibility.

AMANPOUR: You have used extremely colorful language, in fact, to play that down. I think you said, you know, that you might be smoking marijuana or something.

DOLAN: I said people who say that might be drinking too much grappa or smoking marijuana.

They asked me today, and they said, "Do you have a chance to follow Pope Benedict?"

I said "I've got a better chance following A-Rod at third base for the Yankees than following Benedict XVI as the bishop of Rome."

And I mean that. I'm flattered that people think that, but I wouldn't bet the house payment on it.

AMANPOUR: So who do you think might be -- and I know you're not going to tell me a name -- but what kind of personality do you think the cardinals are thinking of right now at this point in the process?

DOLAN: You're asking the right question, because we've got to think about that; that's very realistic. I think -- I think there's been three levels here, Christiane.

First of all, we're thinking about Benedict XVI and we're trying to work through some grief. I use that word intentionally.

Number two, then we've got to talk about issues, issues of pastoral challenges that face the church universal.

And then number three, I'm thinking about myself and I'm getting the - - I mean, of what we got on our plate. Number three, we've got to think about -- when I say we, I mean me and the College of Cardinals, we've got to think about who. You're asking who.

What do you look for, what qualities do you look for? I've never been through this before, OK? I'm still a rookie for a conclave, so I -- there's no -- there's no rule book or anything. There's no guide book as to what to look for.

I say this, Christiane, with all the sincerity I can muster, but knowing that some people will dismiss this as being overly pietistic, I mean it when you say you look for a man who reminds you of Jesus. Now every Christian is supposed to do that, OK, but in a particularly radiant and personal way, the pope is supposed to remind us of Jesus. We call him the vicar of Christ.

So when we see him, we're immediately elevated to the things beyond, the eternal truth and to the man who described himself as the truth, Jesus Christ. So we need somebody to remind us of Jesus. That's sort of the -- what you might call the supernatural characteristics that you look of -- look for.

St. Thomas says grace builds on nature. What are the natural characteristics that we're looking for?

Well, you need -- you need a good pastor, OK? Somebody who's good with people, like Jesus was. You need somebody who is thoroughly versed in the tradition and the profound theology of the -- of our Catholic wisdom.

Number three, you need somebody savvy about the church universal, who kind of is aware and conscious of the diverse needs of the Catholic family.

Number four, you need somebody who can get by in at least English, Italian and preferably some other languages, too.

And number -- where am I? What -- ?

AMANPOUR: Five, six.

DOLAN: Whatever; five -- seven sacraments, seven. Let's do that.

What -- you need somebody with some governing capacity, some managerial skills.

I would presume those are the -- those are the qualities --

AMANPOUR: Right.

DOLAN: -- we'd look for.

AMANPOUR: Well, let me ask you, if you were pope -- you've said you won't be -- but what would you do the very first day on the throne of St. Peter? What is the big challenge right now for the Catholic Church?

DOLAN: If I were elected pope, the first thing, I'd say get Christiane in here for an interview. We'd --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: Apart from that -- oh, that is a good -- I can't believe I nearly let that go.

DOLAN: (Inaudible) --

AMANPOUR: Yes, please tell the next pope that that's exactly what should happen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: And of course, I hope indeed that does happen.

When we come back, I will ask Cardinal Dolan as we continue our conversation how the next pope can do things differently. His answer may surprise you.

But before we take a break, earlier today I was with Monsignor Kevin Irwin (ph) of New York, when we made a major correction to a longstanding assumption about the pope and his famous red shoes. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: We have said for years, ever since we watched this pope be elected in 2005 that he was wearing red Prada shoes. I'm afraid we've been wrong.

MONSIGNOR KEVIN IRWIN (PH), DIOCESE OF NEW YORK: They are red shoes given to him because Constantine gave him the privileges of being an emperor and he allowed them to wear red shoes and a red cape.

But, frankly, the papal shoemaker is up the block. He's not Prada. So the devil may have worn Prada, but not this pope.

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: And so another papal legend bites the dust. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program, live tonight from Rome and now continuing my conversation with Cardinal Timothy Dolan of New York, one of the many cardinals who elect Benedict's successor in the coming weeks. I asked him where he thinks the next pope may take the church and how the new pontiff will handle the scandal that recently rocked the Catholic Church.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DOLAN: The turmoil that we see in the church today, not new. We've had tension, we've had turmoil in the church since the beginning.

We've got it today. It's probably more glaring today because the church is under such intense scrutiny because of what we're going through now.

A call to purity, heroic virtue, sanctity, especially when it would come to what you mentioned, the terribly nauseating and painful episode of clergy sexual abuse. We have to remind ourselves that that happened not because of the church's teaching; that happened because church teaching, what's best in the church, was not listened to and obeyed.

We're going to have to work, Christiane, on the renewal of the sacrament of marriage. That's the great vocation crisis today, isn't it?

AMANPOUR: We -- you talk --

DOLAN: People -- our Catholic people aren't getting married. And the ones that are, aren't able, for some reason, to obey what we believe marriage is all about.

AMANPOUR: You talk about marriage and, in fact, in a new poll done by the Pew Institute, about 58 percent of American Catholics believe that the next pope should start talking about allowing Catholic priests to marry.

Do you think that's a possibility?

DOLAN: That he might start talking about it?

AMANPOUR: That should it happen?

DOLAN: Or that it should happen?

AMANPOUR: Should it and would he?

DOLAN: He -- I would say he might talk about it and think about it, but I don't think it's going to happen. I think the past popes have listened and spoken about it and talked about it. So it's not going to be new.

It startles me sometimes, they say why won't -- why won't -- why doesn't church talk about married priests? I think we talk about it -- I can't get my haircut without my barber asking me about married priests. I mean, every --

AMANPOUR: I'm sure there's a lot of talk --

DOLAN: -- everybody talks about it.

AMANPOUR: You don't think it's going to go anywhere in terms of --

DOLAN: I don't think he would on that one. I don't think there would be that kind of change. Well, you know, this is what's difficult to understand, because we -- and I include myself in this -- usually think of leadership models in an earthly managerial way.

So whenever you have a new leader, whether that be the President of the United States, whether that be the CEO of CNN, what are they talking about, what changes do I want to make?

For a pope, the mission statement is to conserve, in the best sense of the word. His job description is to -- is to conserve, to preserve the patrimony of the church, I mean the spiritual patrimony of the church, the timeless teaching as passed on to us from Jesus to his apostles through 2,000 years of the church.

Now, that doesn't mean that he might not change the way it's presented. But to tamper with the immutable teachings of the church, he wouldn't see that as his role. He would see it as his sacred responsibility to preserve that.

AMANPOUR: What do you think -- and again, this is all part of how Catholics view their hierarchy now. I mean, Catholics are expected to -- and they are preached to by bishops, priests, cardinals, the pope -- to live a very, you know, life according to the rules of the Catholic Church. And yet Catholics have watched many of their priests -- and we touched on this briefly -- violate those rules.

DOLAN: Oh, yes.

AMANPOUR: What does have to happen in this church to bring Catholics back to being able to respect their prelates?

DOLAN: Sure. There has to be -- there has got to be a recovery and a renewal of purity and holiness and virtue in the life of the church. You know what Pope Paul VI said, he was -- he died, remember, in '78.

But he said modern men and women learn much more by witness than by words. So he said what you just said, that very often the way we do things, the way we live has more of an impact than what we're saying.

And if what we say doesn't gel with how we're living, it's counterproductive. Right? So --

AMANPOUR: You know, 63 percent or so of American Catholics look at this sex abuse scandal in the priesthood and they say that Pope Benedict XVI -- although he instituted zero tolerance, he met with abuse victims, he apologized -- did only a poor to fair job of dealing with it.

And I want to ask you yourself, because you've had to deal with all of this; you were deposed in New York --

DOLAN: Last Wednesday --

AMANPOUR: -- last Wednesday.

DOLAN: Yes.

AMANPOUR: You were the Archbishop of Milwaukee and one of the most egregious violations happened there.

DOLAN: Before my time.

AMANPOUR: Father Lawrence Murphy (ph) -- before your time. Many would say that you did your best to try to account for that.

DOLAN: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: But others would say also, the critics, that, you know, you didn't allow the names of the abusers to be made public. Some would say that, you know, some of the desires to bring in an independent litigator may have, you know, prevented some of the money, some of the reparations and settlements going to the victims.

What do you say about all of that, since you had to be deposed about that?

DOLAN: I was deposed about that and grateful that I was. I have been -- I had said two years ago, please come, I want to tell the story and the deposition went rather well.

By the way, the deposition was about the fact that I did reveal the names, so that's something I did that they agreed with.

In fact, the victims said do that, please, and we did.

We have to remember, Christiane, that there are certain groups that are never going to be happy with what we've done, OK? All I can tell you is that, even though in the past the Catholic Church was a model of what not to do in this, I would maintain that today the Catholic Church is a model of what to do. And I'm not bragging about that; that would be self- serving.

Outside independent people tell us this, that now the church is doing it right, OK? So we could dwell on the past. We could go back decades and decades and decades of this nauseating abuse or we can say mea culpa for that; we have learned from it and now, thanks be to God, there is a rigor and a renewal and a responsibility in the church that is laudable and exemplary.

And I think that is 100 percent true.

You mentioned a good point, though, Christiane, that we can't seem to get that news out --

AMANPOUR: Would you say a lot of effort needs to go into, you know, finally calling to account and stopping, not just the abuse but the hiding, the shielding of the abusers, which is another big complaint?

DOLAN: I think we've done it. My Lord, if we're -- if we're trying to hide abusers, we're sure doing an awful job, because every day it's on the front page of the newspaper, so --

AMANPOUR: From before, holding people accountable, from having tried to shield them before? You know there was a huge controversy and there remains a controversy of Cardinal Mahoney.

DOLAN: Cardinal (inaudible) Mahoney, the archbishop of Los Angeles.

AMANPOUR: Indeed, coming here. He had also been deposed. There were thousands and thousands of pages of documents that his own archbishop said made terribly painful reading, the consistent shielding of priests from any kind of accountability.

DOLAN: Yes, from decades ago.

AMANPOUR: Correct.

DOLAN: I think as a church we've said that was a wrong thing to do, should never --

AMANPOUR: So you're confident that there will be zero tolerance?

DOLAN: (Inaudible) we can never -- we can never let up and we can never forget it and we can never say oh, thank God that's over, let's move on.

It's constantly got to be before our eyes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: And after a break, imagine a world with a retired pope. The truth is, nobody alive today can. Some final grace notes on who the next pope could be and how he could navigate the turbulent seas ahead. That's when we return.

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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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AMANPOUR (voice-over): Welcome back to the program. As we close out a historic day here in Rome and in the Catholic Church.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Over the past few hours, Pope Benedict XVI has transitioned in his own words from pope to pilgrim right before our eyes and now 1.2 billion Catholics and the rest of the world are watching to see who will, quite literally, fill the pope's red shoes.

Journalist Marco Politi is a close observer of the Vatican. He's the author of a biography on Pope Benedict in which he actually foresaw the possibility that he might resign, the ideal person to help us reflect on this remarkable day.

Welcome back to the program, Marco.

MARCO POLITI, AUTHOR: Hello, good evening.

AMANPOUR: Good to see you. You just heard what Cardinal Dolan was saying to me; you've been witnessing all of this. What are your reflections today as the pope flies off into retirement?

POLITI: Well, it's really a turning point in the history of Catholic Church, because in the past, if popes were deposed or even killed, it was just a personal happening. There came a new pope, a triumphant pope and the papacy was as it was.

But today, flying away, Pope Benedict left the Catholic Church and especially the papacy in a sort of after-earthquake situation because the sense, the essence of the papacy is changing. With his humble gesture, he puts a break in the tradition when popes were semi-divine, eternal emperors, like emperors of the Roman Empire and they were forever. They were absolute monarchs.

And he has changed the -- just with few words, the sense of the papacy, because he said the pope is a servant. The real head is Jesus Christ. And if a servant is not no more ready to do his job, then it's better that he leaves a place for another one.

AMANPOUR: So let me ask you this, because there have been a lot of questions and particularly by Catholics who may want to see slight opening up in various directions, the kinds of things like allowing Catholic priests to marry.

I mean, let's face it, there is kind of a double standard right now because Anglican priests, who the Catholics need so badly to fill their diminishing ranks, are coming in with families. In any event, all of these kinds of things, even women ascending to the top ranks of priesthood and other managerial ranks in the Catholic Church.

Since the -- since this pope has now set this precedent, do you think it means that these others are no longer taboo, that perhaps other precedents can be broken in this regard?

POLITI: Well, first of all, resigning, Pope Benedict opened the way to a greater accountability, even of the popes to the public opinion and to the public opinion of the Catholics.

We had here an unprecedented happening that a cardinal who was ready to enter the conclave, Cardinal O'Brien from Edinburgh, had to resign because it came out that he was accused allegedly to have inappropriate relations to priests. So this never happened in the past.

And so the new pope knows that the important of the public opinion of the Catholic community first and of the public opinion in general will be stronger. And of course, there is the necessity to open the discussion on many issues.

I was listening to Cardinal Dolan and I can understand that there are cardinals who say, well, even if they are married priests, there will be not a mass of new priests, like it happens in Anglican churches or Protestant churches. But the issue is that there are no more enough priests for the parishes in the first world and in the third world.

So the church has to find new ways. And the second big issue certainly is the issue of the role of the women.

Here in the Vatican, there are only two women who have a role of undersecretary. So let's say a leading role, but all the other people are always staffers in a certain sense. And it is not possible that the women who are half and more of half of the believers are not in the position to be there when it comes to strategical (sic) decisions.

AMANPOUR: Now let me get your prediction to the question that everybody wants answered, who do you think will be the next pope? Who do you think is the front-runner at least?

POLITI: The problem is that in this election, there is not a clear front-runner. In the year 2005, there was clearly Cardinal Ratzinger, because there was a very conservative lobby who was pushing for his candidature. And there was a clear opponent for the reformist bloc, Cardinal Martini (ph) of Milan. And who died a couple of months ago, saying in his last interview, the church is behind 200 years. There must be changes.

So this time, there are too many candidates, at least now. And these candidates have not yet a package of voters, a bloc of voters behind them. Next week, the first general sessions and meetings of cardinals will begin. The quiet negotiations will begin, contacts, little contacts with 2-3 people or greater contacts. And then at the end of the week, maybe we'll have some front-runner.

But what is interesting is that the conclave has to decide whether to go back to an Italian pope or whether to continue the internationalization of the papacy. And this means that for the first time in history, there is the real chance -- I don't say it will come out so -- but the real chance that there is a pope from North America or from South America.

AMANPOUR: Well, it is always exciting, and these have been really remarkable days. It's great to have you with us. We've had an amazing week, a remarkable week, filled with unforgettable happenings and images. And CNN, of course, will be here for the conclave to come and the election of the new pope. Thanks for watching. Goodnight from New York.

END