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NANCY GRACE
Jodi Cross-Exam Fireworks
Aired February 26, 2013 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JODI ARIAS, CHARGED WITH MURDER: He was a light (ph), and he had so many -- he brightened a room when he walked in.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... experience with baby oil involving Mr. Juarez (ph), right?
ARIAS: I think so.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, we don`t want you to think.
ARIAS: ... on Travis, someone who`s been so generous, someone who`s been so kind and someone who has opened up his home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have a problem with your memory? I mean, this was approximately no more than two weeks away.
ARIAS: I don`t think I have a problem.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But you don`t remember things that happened within two weeks, do you.
ARIAS: Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
I don`t remember if I gave you the details...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So the answer is yes or no? Do you remember?
ARIAS: Remember what?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are we talking about? You can`t even remember what you just said!
ARIAS: I think I`m more focused on your posture and your tone and your anger, so it`s hard to process the question.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you having problems understanding again what`s going on?
ARIAS: Sometimes because you go in circles (INAUDIBLE)
(INAUDIBLE) perfect. Our relationship was by no means perfect, but just knowing him has taught me a lot.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He described you as his kryptonite, right?
ARIAS: Yes.
He had inner beauty, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You think somebody who masturbates to pictures of little boys is beautiful on the inside, right?
ARIAS: For someone like that, it almost seems like the world is a darker place now that he`s not in it anymore.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "The reason I was asking about later tonight is because I want to give you a nice (EXPLETIVE DELETED). " (EXPLETIVE DELETED) stands for what? (EXPLETIVE DELETED) means without getting way -- well (EXPLETIVE DELETED) means that you put your mouth on his penis, right?
ARIAS: Yes, oral sex.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And in addition to it, you say, "And I`d like a generous facial in return," right?
ARIAS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That means that you want him to (EXPLETIVE DELETED) on your face, right?
ARIAS: That`s correct.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. Day after day, Jodi Arias on the stand, dragging murder victim Travis Alexander through the mud. Then the defense emerges. Arias claims, after she stabs Alexander 29 times, holding his head back, slashing him ear to ear, to the chest, to the heart, to the back, leaving him dead in the shower stall -- she tells the jury she can`t remember a thing.
In the last hours, fireworks in court as cross-exam turns, ferocious fight between Jodi Arias and the prosecution. While Arias on direct with her own lawyers, she remembers everything, alternating between poise and crying jags, recalling minute details dating back years and years. But then on cross-exam, she recalls practically nothing.
And tonight, caught in another lie, Arias claiming Travis Alexander cheated with a married woman. But tonight, that woman is with us live to deny those claims. That proves Arias a liar on another count.
And then, when the going gets tough, the tough get going, but not in that courtroom. Jodi Arias suddenly says under cross-exam, when it gets a little hot, they need to take a break because she has a headache and needs to eat. And wouldn`t you know it, everything packs up and leaves the courtroom so Arias won`t have a headache.
We are live and taking your calls. Everybody, camped outside that Phoenix courthouse, straight out to Jean Casarez joining us. Jean, what happened in court?
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": The prosecutor started when she was 17 years old today, to show the jury through the testimony that in that beginning relationship with Bobby Juarez, she was confrontational, she was aggressive, she stood her ground, she didn`t allow herself to be abused. She also had a stalker mentality.
He`s trying to show that the way she looked into the MySpace pages and from boyfriend to boyfriend, including Travis, she snooped into their personal e-mails.
GRACE: And you know, Beth Karas -- also with us outside the courthouse with Jean -- I notice a pattern emerging, Beth. She`ll get a boyfriend, then she perceives some wrongdoing on the boyfriend`s part. She hacks into his e-mail, and then, I don`t care how far she has to go, be it a two-hour drive, a 90-minute drive, she drops what she`s doing and she either confronts the man or the girl -- the new girlfriend.
She hacks into the e-mail. She follows them. She pursues them and confronts them. Isn`t that true?
BETH KARAS, "IN SESSION": Yes. That`s exactly right, exactly what you just described, what Jean just described. This is a woman who didn`t respect the private spaces of her boyfriends, including Travis Alexander. She`s looking at his MySpace. She`s looking at his text messages, for example. So she has a stalker-type behavior.
But the defense, of course, will say, Oh, but she wasn`t violent toward any of the other boyfriends. She was justified in doing it here because she felt threatened. However, the state will probably say, Look, you know, this was a much more involved relationship, and these two were really a powder keg together sexually, and this was something that, really, she became obsessed with. She couldn`t get him out of her life. And if she couldn`t have him because he was rejecting her, then nobody would.
GRACE: You know, to you, Alexis Tereszcuk, senior reporter, Radaronline.com. This -- let me warn everybody listening tonight that there`s going to be graphic language on our show tonight because of what`s going on in the courtroom.
Now, over and over, Alexis, it`s come out that she was basically, according to her, bullied into anal sex with Travis Alexander. And that goes toward her claim that she was a battered woman, abused and mistreated.
But on the stand today, we learn she lied even to her own defense team because we learned that she had been having the same type of sex -- anal sex -- with another boyfriend, at least one other boyfriend, if not more.
ALEXIS TERESZCUK, RADARONLINE.COM: You`re exactly right. That`s what she said. She admitted to the prosecutor that she had anal sex before, and she even talked about the lubrication. Of course, this specific time, she couldn`t remember which brand it was. But this exact same thing she did with Travis, that they used lubrication.
So it`s, again -- instead of using it as her defense, the prosecutor is showing that this is not something new or something that Travis forced her into. It`s something she`d done before. She acted as if she did not like the anal sex that she had with him after she was baptized, and it hurt and it was uncomfortable. But then she did say other times that she did actually end up enjoying it.
Well, this wasn`t the only boyfriend she had ever done this with. So it was just showing another pattern of Jodi`s lies.
GRACE: Well, what`s so critical in my mind -- back out to you, Jean Casarez -- I don`t care who she does what with. I couldn`t care less what they do. I`m not the church lady. I`m not judging them on their sex practices. But what is critical here is that that has been made out to be a major facet in this case by Jodi Arias -- all this business of her saying that he masturbated to pictures of little boys, which I don`t believe, and that he forced her into anal sex.
Now we find out that there have been other boyfriends, at least one that we know of, where she willingly went along with it. It was no big deal.
CASAREZ: Right. And the whole afternoon was about sex, and a lot of people are probably going to say it makes no sense. It makes perfect sense, Nancy, because the defense is trying to say the power, influence and control, the cycle of violence began with this, the sexual aspect of the relationship.
They`re also preempting now -- the prosecutor is -- the defense experts. But the fact is, the prosecution showed today she was a willing participant every step of the way.
GRACE: Let`s go into the courtroom.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you happy in your relationship with Travis?
ARIAS: Yes, I was. Yes. During the relationship, I was very happy. You know, and it wasn`t always perfect. Our relationship was by no means perfect, but just knowing him has taught me a lot.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was Travis a flirt with women, with other people?
ARIAS: Yes, and he was not secretive about it. So that was something that -- I wasn`t aware of that aspect right away when I first met him, which was in the MGM Grand. He was very cool, very calm. And even -- there were people that had made comments, saying, you know, why was he on such good behavior that night, and he said that he sort of -- looking back on that, he said he kind of had an agenda, and because I came off as a calm person, he was sort of trying to mirror (ph) match (ph).
But you know, by nature, he`s very open, very outgoing, very flirtatious, not that that`s a bad thing at all.
That`s the other thing. I really -- when you asked me if I was angry or outraged -- I`m more angry and outraged that his life was taken and that he had so much potential, that he had so many things and projects that he was working on, that some will get completed and some will never get completed.
He was a light (ph), and he had so many -- he brightened a room when he walked in. He literally brightened the room. Like, you could just tell when -- you could tell when Travis was -- whether you were -- what direction -- no matter what direction you were looking at, you could tell when Travis showed up because the laughter got louder, and you know, the conversation got happier and just the whole energy of the room changed.
And you know, for -- for someone like that, it almost seems like the world is a darker place now that he`s not in it anymore. So I`m really angry about that. I can`t imagine what his family is going through. I love my brothers so much, and I know that he had a lot of siblings, and I just cannot imagine what it would be like to get a phone call to hear that something happened to one of my brothers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To you, Beth Karas. Why was the segment of "48 Hours" being played for the jury today?
KARAS: Well, you know, there are several -- you cut out for a second there, but there were several segments (ph) of "48 Hours" that were played for the jury where she is basically saying things opposite from what she has said on the stand, where she is painting this beautiful picture of Travis Alexander, like what you just played, that he would just light up the room and the world is a darker place without him in it.
You know, she also talked about how it was hard to say no to Travis Alexander, but the sex that they had, it was all mutual. This was very different from what she conveyed on direct examination, that she did things just to make him feel good because she was afraid she wouldn`t get his attention if she said no to him.
GRACE: OK, Liz, I want to hear the other "48 Hours" sound.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: I just personally -- I can`t see any motive in myself to ever want to do this, inflict this kind of thing on Travis, someone who`s been so generous, someone who`s been so kind and someone who has opened up his home, opened up his refrigerator on many times when I didn`t have enough money to go to the grocery store and fill up my own fridge.
You know, it was -- there are so many things that he did, little things. I came home from the airport once. And he let me park my car in his garage so that it was safe while I was gone. And I showed up to get my car, and there was this -- there was this bag of -- bag on the hood that said Cinnabon. And he knew that I liked Cinnabon. And I remember calling him before I flew out -- I was flying out of Salt Lake. And in the Phoenix airport, there`s a Cinnabon stand and I always get one before I go on my flight.
And I remember lamenting a little bit, saying Cinnabon`s going to be closed when I get home because it`s going to be late. And so he went out to the mall and got me Cinnabons so I would be able to have that when I got home. Just little things that he did like that, thoughtful things, as well. He looked up a whole recipe on line for Cinnabon and printed it out on pink paper and folded it up in there and put it in there with that. And he gave me a $10 gift card for Cinnabon.
So it`s, like -- just little things, like -- those were just -- that`s just one example of so many little things that he`s always done for me, and not just for me but for everyone that he knew.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: No. No. No.
I think I`m more focused on your posture and your tone and your anger.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s, again, the prosecutor`s fault because you perceive him to be angry, right?
ARIAS: I think that was a compound question.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You just have a problem with the word confrontation.
ARIAS: That`s not how I would put it. I would put it a different way.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But that`s what you were doing, right?
ARIAS: That`s not how I would put it. I didn`t know that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s what you`re telling us, right?
ARIAS: That`s not what I said. Remember what?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are we talking about?
ARIAS: We`re talking about the incident. Put up with what?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, what is it that we`re talking about here?
ARIAS: Which part put up with?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is it a good word or is it not a good word?
ARIAS: It depends on how you used it.
-- because you go in circles...
-- circles...
-- circles...
-- because I`m focused more on your posture.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you understand that?
ARIAS: I answered yes.
That`s the third time you asked me that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: What a day it was in the courtroom. Cross-examination turned ferocious fight as the two go at each other, Jodi Arias and the prosecution.
Matt Zarrell, did the prosecution make any headway? And why did it turn so much more acrimonious?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, part of the reason it turned acrimonious, Nancy, is that Arias continues to what I like to call play dumb, where she doesn`t know what they`re even talking about, the context of the conversation they`re talking about.
Here with the posture -- you played the clip of the posture. She says that the posture bothered her, but then five minutes later, Nancy, she says, Well, it`s not the posture. She`s having a problem processing things because she`s focused on his posture. She talks out of both sides of her mouth every five minutes, and you don`t know how to keep up.
GRACE: Matt Zarrell, what were the big points in court today?
ZARRELL: Well, one of the big points, talking about posture specifically, is the prosecutor cited the interrogation tape with Arias July 15th, where Detective Flores, who was not standing up, who was not yelling, who was not asking aggressive questions, he was sitting, he was very calm, and Arias still continued to lie.
Also, they presented evidence from the memorial, from Travis`s memorial, where Arias wrote that Travis was beautiful on the inside and out. And the prosecutor used that to attack Arias, saying, Well, if Travis was masturbating to pictures of young boys, why was he beautiful on the inside?
GRACE: Everyone, we are taking your calls, but before we go to your calls, I want to go to a special guest joining us tonight, Shannon Peterson, a friend of Travis Alexander. And she was accused by Jodi Arias of basically cheating while she was married with Travis Alexander. Shannon is here to absolutely torpedo those lies by Arias.
Shannon, thank you for being with us.
SHANNON PETERSON, FRIEND OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER (via telephone): Yes, no problem.
GRACE: I understand that you know about the testimony by Jodi Arias. What do you make of it?
PETERSON: Well, I was kind of shocked to hear my name in open court. That was kind of crazy. But I mean, I feel like everybody knows everything that comes out of her mouth is a lie, pretty much, so I mean, I wasn`t completely shocked, but...
GRACE: Let`s take a listen, everyone -- Shannon Peterson also taking your calls -- to what happened in court.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you were particularly offended because you said that the woman that was involved there was married, right?
ARIAS: Yes, she was married.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what was the woman`s name?
ARIAS: I don`t want to destroy anyone`s marriage.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So what was the woman`s name?
ARIAS: Shannon Crabtree Peterson.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And so you believed she was married and you believed that they were doing something they shouldn`t have been doing, right?
ARIAS: She was married. And by LDS standards, what they were talking about was very inappropriate.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But all they were doing was talking, right?
ARIAS: They were joking about getting together for a special liaison.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK, Shannon Peterson, explain the timeline. When did all of this allegedly happen?
PETERSON: I honestly don`t know what she`s talking about. But Travis and I did keep in touch. I was on your show a few weeks ago. We did exchange e-mails very sporadically and occasionally. And I don`t know -- I don`t even know what year he was in Mesa, but once he moved to Mesa, it was even more sporadic. I had two small children. I was married. I -- I don`t -- I`m not sure what timeline she`s talking about.
GRACE: You know, Matt Zarrell, break it down for us, what happened in court as it relates to Shannon Peterson.
ZARRELL: OK. Well, this is about a pattern that the state is establishing that Arias had a pattern of finding out that the men in her life were cheating, and then she confronts them and breaks up with them, but notes that the pattern was different with Travis, that Arias saw e- mails on Travis`s MySpace account between Travis and Peterson that were flirtatious. But Arias said that even being flirtatious about sex was considered a no-no with the Mormons.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you were particularly offended because you said that the woman that was involved there was married, right?
ARIAS: Yes, she was married.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what was the woman`s name?
ARIAS: I don`t want to destroy anyone`s marriage.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So what was the woman`s name?
ARIAS: Shannon Crabtree Peterson.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And so you believed she was married, and you believed that they were doing something that they shouldn`t have been doing, right?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Whoa! That took a lot of arm twisting. I don`t want to destroy anybody`s marriage. Shannon Crabtree Peterson. That was quick.
And with me now is Shannon Peterson. Shannon, were you ever approached by either the defense or the prosecution?
PETERSON: Yes, the defense attorneys came to visit me a couple of years ago. Apparently, my name came up.
GRACE: What did they want?
PETERSON: My name came up in a few e-mails, I think they said that was exchanged between Jodi and Travis, I think a conversation that they were having in e-mails, and my name was mentioned.
GRACE: What did they want from you? What did they want to you do?
PETERSON: Well, this was right around the time that she decided to change her stance to that it was self-defense. It was the first -- actually, when her attorney came to see me, that the first I heard it was claiming self-defense. And so they were trying to paint Travis as some kind of, I don`t know, womanizer. I don`t remember what words they used, but they were trying to kind of see what I knew about that. And I obviously didn`t know that side of Travis, so...
GRACE: So they were trying to get you onto the wagon of banging the drum, Travis Alexander`s the bad guy, he`s a cheater, he`s a bully, blah, blah, blah, and you don`t know him to be that?
PETERSON: Yes, that`s correct.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The very first date, first time that you`d been alone, you very quickly are having some sort of sexual contact with him, right?
ARIAS: No, there was no sexual contact.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re saying he adjusted himself. You didn`t help with any (INAUDIBLE)
ARIAS: I assisted him, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And basically, that means putting your hands on his buttock area, right?
ARIAS: No, it was his shoulders.
He had that control.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re saying that he controlled you so much that when you were in his presence, you had no free will. That`s what you`re telling us, right?
ARIAS: That`s not what I said.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, you could have left anytime you were in his presence, couldn`t you?
ARIAS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you or didn`t you tell him that you had had anal intercourse with Bobby Juarez?
ARIAS: If it was discussed...
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes or no?
ARIAS: ... then I didn`t tell him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Judge, she`s not responding.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Whoa! Cross-exam turns ferocious fight in the courtroom today. Who`s the winner? Who`s the loser? It all remains to be seen.
And we were just discussing this. You know, this jury has the opportunity to ask questions. Whoa! Jean Casarez, what do you think`s going to happen when they get to ask questions of Jodi Arias?
CASAREZ: You know, I see a lot of notes being written. I see them looking over notes. If I was a juror, I`d start putting together some questions. You don`t want to wait until the end, because look at the immense amount of material, but, Nancy, it could last a day, jurors` questions.
GRACE: Oh, oh, you can count on that, because every one of them are going to have questions for Jodi Arias. I mean, I do.
Joining me right now, Jean, you, Beth, Alexis, we can all ask a friend of Jodi Arias his take on all of this. Joining me is Jake, he is a friend and supporter of Jodi Arias. He speaks and writes to her behind bars. Jake, thank you for being with us.
JAKE, FRIEND OF JODI ARIAS: Thank you for having me.
GRACE: Jake, question. Do you believe her story of self-defense?
JAKE: I believe that she is innocent. We`ve been writing for four years, and I think that they had a toxic relationship, and something went wrong that day and caused her to, unfortunately, murder him, and I hope the jurors--
GRACE: Whoa. Let me just clarify something. You said in the beginning that you believe she is innocent and that she, unfortunately, murdered him. Now, those can`t both be true, so which one -- to which one do you ascribe?
JAKE: Innocent in terms of some sort of self-defense, something must have happened that day.
GRACE: OK. So you think it`s not murder, that she did kill him, but in self-defense. So my original question is, do you believe her claim of self-defense? And I believe that you are saying, yes, you do.
JAKE: Yes. Yes, I do.
GRACE: OK. Jake, if it is self-defense, how do you explain the nine stab wounds to Travis Alexander`s back?
JAKE: I`ve never talked to her about the actual murder itself, but I`m thinking that maybe at first she stabbed him in the front, and then afterwards she just started stabbing him in the back, and that`s why there are stab wounds to the back.
GRACE: Well, obviously she stabbed him in the front and the back, but, as you know, Jake -- you`re an intelligent person -- self-defense is only a defense where you are in fear of your life or serious bodily injury. So she is stabbing him in the back. Obviously he`s not coming at her, would you agree with that?
JAKE: Initially, it`s possible that he was coming at her and then she did some overkill.
GRACE: Overkill. OK. And where would you fit the shooting him in the head into that scenario?
JAKE: Into the overkill.
GRACE: Yes, OK. And what about the slashing his neck from ear to ear, where would that fit in to the self-defense scenario?
JAKE: Into the overkill.
GRACE: The overkill category. All right. Everyone, we are taking your calls. Let`s go out to Billy in Florida. Hi, Billy, what`s your question?
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. My trial group online loves you.
GRACE: Thank you.
CALLER: I am going to give you the most evidential phone call you`ve had yet. OK.
GRACE: Hit me.
CALLER: Jodi`s story of murdering him can be proven to be a total lie. Jodi states that she dropped the camera. He jumps up, he body slams her. She gets up, she runs down the hallway, climbs the shelf, gets the gun. Then Travis charges her. She shoots him in the head, which makes him even madder. Then he goes to tackle her, she blacks out.
Now if you look at the time stamp in the photos, he is alive at 5:30 p.m., sitting down in the shower. At 5:32 p.m., he is being dragged dead. That is 120 seconds. There is no way the story that she gave could ever take place in 120 seconds. She could never get up from a body slam, run down the hallway, climb some shelf, find a gun, shoot him in the head, then he kicks her some more, then he gets tackled by her, then she still -- let`s remember, stab him 29 times, cuts his head almost off of his body, and drag him to the bathroom.
If somebody could re-enact this crime in that house, if the prosecutor would have the gall or the nerve to go ahead and re-act this, it would take about seven minutes to do what she described. That`s all I need to know. This guy who just called in, Jake, I don`t know what planet he lives on, but if he believes what he believes, I have a 7-Eleven for sale for him on the moon. Because Jodi is as guilty as anything I have ever seen in my life, and her story that she gave is absurd. Just look at the photos with the time stamps, and it proves it. It proves it.
GRACE: OK, Billy in Florida, you are absolutely right, and you should either be a prosecutor or an investigator. And, listen to this, Billy, think about it -- think about it, Billy, a lot of news analysts keep saying 27 -- there are 29 stab wounds. Listen to this, Billy, and I`m counting it, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29. OK, right there, I`ve used up 20 seconds of those two minutes. You`re right.
And, OK, now I want to go out to Caryn Stark, psychologist, joining me out of New York. Caryn, what do you make of it? Billy in Florida is right. It couldn`t have happened that way, but her demeanor on the stand, what do you make of it?
STARK: Nancy, she`s blowing it with her demeanor right now. The way that she is coming across, she is no longer that demure little girl or that sweet, innocent person. She is fighting, and so what`s happening is that the prosecutor is proving that she has got a temper, that she stands up for herself, that she is courageous, and we`re seeing that and that doesn`t deem well for her future at all.
GRACE: Agree, Caryn. Unleash the lawyers. Bradford Cohen joining us out of Miami, and now, after a long absence from the airwaves, Richard Herman, defense attorney, who is joining us. Richard, it`s great to see you, and, of course, Bradford, no offense.
RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Great seeing you, Nancy.
BRADFORD COHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: None taken.
GRACE: Richard, Richard --
HERMAN: Yes?
GRACE: Hit me.
HERMAN: Hit you? First of all, Billy`s story, maybe the clock on the camera is off, so, bam, let`s deal with that. In any event, Nancy, the cross-examination --
GRACE: That`s a good job.
HERMAN: The cross-examination that I saw today--
GRACE: You mean the camera that she put into the washer so it would be destroyed but, uh-oh, it wasn`t?
HERMAN: I don`t know. Maybe the timer is not accurate. I`ve seen that happen a lot. But listen, the cross-examination today --
GRACE: Maybe. Maybe a little green man flew in through the bathroom window and did it. Maybe.
HERMAN: This was the worst cross-examination I`ve seen in 30 years of litigation practice. He`s all over the place, and he`s gaining sympathy for her. He should have been surgical. He should have been in and out and done by now. It`s overkill, to use a word like that. He`s going to get sympathy from the jury, and I think like Angela Dundee said, you`re blowing it, son. He can`t control himself because she`s taking the better of him.
GRACE: See, I disagree. I think with every day that goes with by, more and more of her lies are exposed. OK, Bradford.
COHEN: I don`t know, Nancy. You were a very experienced prosecutor. You`re a very experienced lawyer, and I always look at cross-examinations like a Navy SEAL. I get in, I make my point, and I get out. If you prove that she did 20 lies or she did 30 lies, you`re going to prove she`s a liar. If you just keep going and going and going, it doesn`t make your point better, it makes your point a little bit worse.
Now, that being said, her demeanor on the stand is not the demeanor that I would have given her the advice to take. I would have been a little less aggressive on the stand, and when she does make a point, then she smirks and laughs afterwards, that doesn`t help.
GRACE: Well, actually, you both have valid points tonight. But the issue with you, Herman, is I agree, in and out. Both of you said that, but there`s just so much this prosecutor has got to go through. Hold on, everybody, I want to know what you think. We`re following the trial, we want you, our legal eagles, to send in tips. HLNTV.com/nancygrace. Go down to get to know us and give us your insights, and, tonight, the family album of your photos is back. Tonight, South Carolina friends Cameron and Greyson. 5-year-old Greyson loves writing letters to big brother at Marine boot camp. And going to (inaudible). Send your photos to iReport, family album, at hlntv.com.
Hey, Richard, I want to see the baby. Slash Nancy Grace, and click on Nancy`s family album.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: After weeks of seemingly irrelevant, innocuous testimony from Jodi Arias on the stand, finally this week we get to the day that Travis Alexander was slaughtered -- slaughtered in his own shower. Her story begins to veer almost out of control. And what I mean by that is that she is starting to catch herself in one inconsistency after the next. That`s what happens when you talk too much.
Let me tell you this, Arias` lawyers better be worried about cross exam. They`ve taken a very big gamble putting her on the stand. I don`t believe it`s going to pay off for them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: How far back was this?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re talking with about your memory problem, right?
ARIAS: I don`t know that I`d really call it a problem. Not that I remember. I don`t remember that part.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was the name of this woman?
ARIAS: I don`t remember. I don`t remember if there were calls that morning.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can`t tell us anything.
ARIAS: I just don`t remember what specific subject matter.
I don`t remember. It could be because I don`t remember. I don`t remember. I don`t know. I don`t know. It was more -- I don`t remember specific subject matter. I don`t remember making out with him before we went out for the evening.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your memory issues, we`re talking about those, right?
ARIAS: I don`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And it was at college, I believe, correct?
ARIAS: I don`t remember.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How many minutes?
ARIAS: I don`t know. I wasn`t timing it. I don`t remember, I think.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think means you don`t know, right?
ARIAS: I don`t know. I don`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Isn`t it true that when you and Mr. Parkinson (ph) engaged in (CENSORED) intercourse, you used baby oil, right?
ARIAS: I don`t remember that far back what kind of lubricant we used.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have a problem with your memory?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to Beth Karas and Jean Casarez. Also with us Alexis Tereszcuk and Matt Zarrell. Beth, Beth, it got very, very contentious in court today. What were the major points?
KARAS: You know, I don`t know that there was any really touche moment on the part of the prosecutor with her. But the more he got her to talk and tried to pin her down to details, the more the jury heard, I don`t know, I don`t remember, I`m not sure. And that is just in marked contrast to her direct examination, where there were these detailed narratives. So why does she have such a great memory on direct and not such a good memory on cross?
Now, I also do believe the prosecution is setting up things that will probably happen later in the cross. He`s lulling her into a sense of security now. Something`s going to happen big, I think.
GRACE: What about it, Jean?
CASAREZ: You know, I think one of the big moments today, we learned what a wonderful person Travis Alexander was. We learned through those 48 hours interviews the truth of who he was as a person, what he had done for Jodi, what she wrote in the memorial book, because he`s been so trashed by the defense. So today for the first time, we got to know the Travis that was really the person.
GRACE: You know, Susan Constantine, I think Jean Casarez is right. When I heard that story about the cinnabons, I know it`s a silly little thing, but to think that he went out and drove there and got that for her and made a little printout with the recipe and had it sitting on her car when she got back, I don`t know, I thought that was very touching. What are you picking up?
SUSAN CONSTANTINE, JURY CONSULTANT: Well, the same thing. When I`m listening to this, she had a really strong connection with him, she thought he was showing his romantic side of him. When we listened to her videos in the past, she talks about bubble baths and candlelight, so she is wanting that romance. So she actually sensed some of that romance. Then at the same time she is saying she didn`t like it. You know, when the sex became more intense and so forth, then she says she didn`t like it.
One of the things I would like to bring up, though, is when she is talking about I don`t remember. Generally that is usually consistent with somebody who says, I don`t know. But what you`ll notice is that she has these tiny little micro shoulder shrugs, just very small over here, and it usually follows when she is kind of pausing, hesitating, going from constructing to recalling information, and then she pauses and she says, I don`t know. But then her mouth goes off to the side in contempt and then goes a micro shoulder shrug -- deception.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You knew that he was being unfaithful because you did -- when he was asleep, you went into his telephone, right?
ARIAS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you looked at what was on his telephone, right?
ARIAS: That`s right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you really didn`t have permission to do that, did you?
ARIAS: No, I didn`t. Actually, I did. I`m sorry. I did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: While he was asleep, you had permission to go in there?
ARIAS: He had offered, here, look at my phone. And I said no.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So right before he went to sleep, he said to you, here, have my phone, look at it?
ARIAS: It wasn`t right before he went to sleep.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ma`am, right before he went to sleep, did he say to you, here, take a look at my phone?
ARIAS: No, not right before he went to sleep.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to you, Alexis Tereszcuk, what were your observations in court today? What did you observe, come out in cross exam that was surprising?
TERESZCUK: I think the fact that Jodi, what you said earlier, was so quick to say the name of this woman whose marriage she didn`t want to wreck. She had no problem at all throwing this woman under the bus. I spoke with her earlier today, she absolutely denied, that this wasn`t true.
But one time Jodi actually smiled, when the prosecutor asked her about a sex act that she had, and she smiled and sort of joked as if you would with your friend, saying, oh, yes, I did do that, and that was the most shocking thing to me. We haven`t seen her do that in a while, and I think that her deception is coming through with everything the prosecutor is asking.
GRACE: Matt Zarrell, you observed more inconsistencies, did you not?
ZARRELL: Yes, Nancy, one thing we want to talk about here, going back to the caller, talking about the moments of the murder, Arias says that she shot Travis first and then Travis got on top of her and she was able to get away and doesn`t remember anything after that. The problem is, if you remember from the medical examiner`s testimony, he said the gunshot to the head would have been -- you would have instantly lost consciousness. Loss of consciousness would be immediate. If you had a projectile going through the front part of your brain, you would be laying on the floor and you wouldn`t be able to move. So how is he able to get on top of her and hold her down?
GRACE: Jake is with us, the friend and supporter of Jodi Arias, speaks and writes to her. Jake, it is my understanding that you counseled her to pull her hair down over her face and kind of pretend it wasn`t all happening? Is that right?
JAKE: Well, we talked during the trial, when they started showing the pictures of them naked and the close-ups of her private parts, and she said, oh, John, I`m so embarrassed, I want to go underneath the table. So I said, well, put your hair in front of your face, and it`s going to be over. Get through that part of the trial.
GRACE: Well, you know, it`s interesting, Caryn Stark, because I think when she has her hair down over her -- I think she looks exactly like the Addams family Cousin It.
STARK: Well, she does, and she certainly is not showing that she looks ashamed or that she looks chagrined or that anything is really disturbing her. She looks strange. And so once again, she`s not coming across to the jury as someone who is sympathetic.
GRACE: OK. Everybody, I did not ask for the photo of Cousin It, I just want you to know that. Richard Herman, Bradford Cohen, why are her lawyers letting her hide behind her hair, Richard?
HERMAN: I think that, Nancy, there is a lot of objections they`re not making. I think they want the sympathy factor here. She`s upset, she`s putting her head down. The hair on her face, I think it goes to the sympathy factor.
GRACE: OK. Bradford, do you have anything better than that?
COHEN: I think the hair in the face is idiotic. I would just have them watch the film and show her normal reaction.
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GRACE: We remember American hero, Air Force Tech Sergeant Anthony Campbell, Jr., 35, Florence, Kentucky. Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Air Force Commendation Medal, parents Anthony Sr. and Frances. Stepfather David, brother Nathan, sister Matea (ph). Widow Emily. Children Jordan, Riker (ph), Devon (ph). Anthony Campbell, Jr. American hero.
Cross exam turns ferocious fight. Out to you, Barbara in New York. What`s your question?
CALLER: Hi. I have a quick comment, then a question. I think that Travis was a man trying to be faithful to his beliefs, and she slithered into his life, got her fangs into him, and taught him everything she knew.
My question is her defense, self-defense. He was in the shower soaping himself up. What did he do, sprinkle her with water? Put soap in her eyes? And if he then went to attack her, he was wet and soapy. He would have slipped. She could have got away from him. She is a liar, and she is a psycho. That`s my comment and question.
GRACE: You know what, I agree with you 300 percent. Matt Zarrell, weigh in.
ZARRELL: Well, Nancy, she is having trouble just recollecting what they`re even talking about on the stand, let alone anything else. She even has trouble confirming when the Cancun trip was, she doesn`t know when she found out.
GRACE: Everybody, we`re keeping an eye on the courtroom, but as we go to break, happy birthday to Sam. Recently graduated with a double major in biology and I.T., just starting a new career in I.T. Isn`t he handsome?
"Dr. Drew" up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
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