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NANCY GRACE

Man Kills Live-In Girlfriend With Machete

Aired August 10, 2012 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, live, Orinda, California, and a mystery. She`s in her own kitchen, puttering around, when she drops dead -- not by a heart attack, a stroke, a freak accident, she is hacked to death with a machete in her own kitchen. Bombshell tonight. Cops race to the scene to find Evangeline Devera face down in her own kitchen right beside the coffeemaker and the microwave, hacked to death. Murder weapon? Machete.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police respond to a 911 call.

911 OPERATOR: 911, what is your emergency?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When officers arrived at the suspect`s house.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The cops found the body of his girlfriend, Evangeline, face down in their kitchen, surrounded by blood, with multiple gashes on her body.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dead on the kitchen floor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re pretty confident it`s a murder.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Evangeline is surrounded by blood, with deep gashes on the back of her head and a nearly severed left hand attached only by a piece of skin.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We recovered a weapon near the neighbors` home, a couple doors down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cops soon arrested Evangeline`s live-in boyfriend, James Collin, and claim that he chopped up his girlfriend with a machete.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The victim and suspect had been living together for at least 10 years.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Prosecutors say Collin`s attack was so severe that Evangeline`s skull had been fractured by multiple hacking wounds to her brain.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They had a fight, and it ended like this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Collin not only faces murder charges, but is also accused of torturing his girlfriend and could face the death penalty if convicted.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.

Bombshell tonight, Orinda, California. She`s puttering around in her own kitchen when she drops dead. But it was no heart attack, stroke or freak accident, she is hacked to death with a machete in her own kitchen.

We are taking your calls. Straight out to Dave Mack, morning talk show host, WAAX. Dave, thank you for being with us. Explain.

DAVE MACK, CLEAR CHANNEL WAAX: Nancy, it is as sick and as sordid as it sounded right from the top. This woman is in her kitchen. They`ve been living together for 10 years. Neighbors have heard them argue, but never anything like this. And in particular, that morning they heard her yelling at him.

He hacked her to death. He beat her with that machete. She almost lost her left hand. It was hanging on by a sliver of skin. She had incredible gashes in her forearm. She had her ankles both hacked, and the back of her head was also hacked. She was just totally tortured and cut up with a machete by a man that she lived with for 10 years.

GRACE: Well, he is saying, however, that he is not guilty. I want to go out to Henry K. Lee, reporter with "The San Francisco Chronicle" and author of "Presumed Dead." Henry Lee, he is saying he didn`t do it.

HENRY K. LEE, "SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE": Well, as you know, Nancy, that is the standard plea entry initially after a -- such a gruesome case. That gives his attorney the time to review the evidence and discovery before they go forward.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Julie in Florida. Hi, Julie. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, how could anybody not hear what was going on? And where are the laws in California that protected this poor girl?

GRACE: Let`s go out to Mary Knox. She is a special guest joining us today, the deputy district attorney there in Contra Costa County in the DA`s office.

Mary, it`s really great to have you with us. That is a conundrum, how no one could have heard a thing. Although, Mary, I was thinking about it earlier -- if the first blow had been so severe that the victim couldn`t really scream out, that could explain something to the effect of why the neighbors couldn`t hear anything.

MARY KNOX, DPY. DISTRICT ATTORNEY, CONTRA COSTA CO. (via telephone): Absolutely, Nancy. The severity of all of the injuries that she received could very well have rendered her incapable of screaming or screaming for help.

GRACE: He is declaring his innocence, Mary Knox, is he not?

KNOX: Nancy, there`s a subtle difference there that entry of the not guilty plea (INAUDIBLE) just brings the presumption of innocence into play and merely requires that the prosecution then move ahead with doing a preliminary hearing and things of that nature. It does not necessarily equate to him denying that he killed her.

GRACE: To Clark Goldband. The victim in this case, Evangeline Devera, is a mother of a young teen girl who`s now left behind. What`s interesting to me is that he says he is not guilty. If not him, then who, Clark Goldband?

CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, that`s right. She was just dropping off her child, her teen child, with the father of that child. And we`re also learning from law enforcement, Nancy, that in fact, there is supposedly a reason why this alleged crime took place. Now, what that reason is, authorities are not revealing it. So it will be interesting to see how that plays out.

GRACE: You know, I couldn`t hear you. What were you saying about video?

GOLDBAND: Nancy, authorities have said, police have said, there is a reason why this killing allegedly took place. Supposedly, the suspect told law enforcement there`s a reason why this killing happened. However, we don`t know what that reason is.

GRACE: You know what`s interesting is that more than one crime has played out in that very kitchen. But first to Julie in Florida -- hold on. Have we already gone to Julie? Who`s the caller, Dana? Thank you.

Marissa in New York. Hi, Marissa. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How are you? I was just wondering that -- I can`t even believe that a lawyer would actually take on a case like this, but is there a chance that this man could be out on bail?

GRACE: Good question. What do we know, Clark?

GOLDBAND: Well, Nancy, I suppose there is a chance. However, the bail in this case is well over $1 million.

GRACE: Let`s go back to Mary Knox, the deputy district attorney joining us from California. What is the status of bond?

KNOX: Bail has been set, and Mr. Collin has made no attempt to post his bail.

GRACE: What is the bail?

KNOX: It`s in excess of a million dollars.

GRACE: And the current charges, what are they, Mary?

KNOX: Mr. Collin`s charged with murder, with the use of a deadly weapon, the machete, as well as a second count of torture with use of a deadly weapon, the machete.

GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Paul Henderson, San Francisco, Renee Rockwell, Atlanta, Peter Odom, Atlanta.

Paul, this is close to your neck of the woods. Explain the thinking. Will this be a death penalty case?

PAUL HENDERSON, PROSECUTOR: Well, you have information and you have evidence that lend to special circumstances. So in a case like this, where you have someone that was actually tortured, that was killed in such a heinous manner and that was killed in a way that reflects that these weren`t -- these were -- these were defensive wounds and that the body was injured and that the person was living and still being attacked, that shows the torture and the mayhem. And that`s a perfect foundation and he ground work to open the door for special circumstances to justify the death penalty.

GRACE: Peter?

HENDERSON: That`s how it works in California.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. Mayhem is not a basis for special circumstances in California, hacking off a limb. Torture is. That`s probably why they brought that charge. So if the state proves what it`s setting out to do, then this is going to be a case about defending his -- about saving his life. That sounds like a pretty tough case for self- defense.

GRACE: Renee?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely, Nancy. And my understanding is that he did admit that it happened. I think the second thought was that they would tack on the torture to sensationalize this, Nancy, so they could go for the death penalty.

GRACE: So you`re claiming that the prosecution sensationalized the case.

ROCKWELL: That`s right, Nancy, because it was originally a murder case.

GRACE: OK.

ROCKWELL: What case (INAUDIBLE) when it takes a while to kill somebody...

HENDERSON: That`s ridiculous.

ROCKWELL: What case doesn`t involve some type of torture?

GRACE: Renee, you`ve certainly represented the worst of the worst, but have you ever had a machete case?

ROCKWELL: No, Nancy, I haven`t had a machete.

GRACE: All right, so let me -- yes, that was a simple yes or no.

Paul, maybe you could school the defense attorneys on the panel tonight as to why this is considered heinous and why it`s considered torturous.

HENDERSON: Well, even looking at the evidence, and so you see how badly the body was attacked -- you see how many times she was hit with that machete. She was slashed in the back of her head. Her arm was almost served off. Her legs were slashed at her ankles so she couldn`t run away or get away. And she was repeatedly attacked and hit with that machete.

I didn`t hear about any evidence on the defendant or any evidence from the person that`s alleged to have committed this crime about injuries to him. The torture here seems abundantly clear. It is clear that he was trying to injure her, to torture her, to make her feel pain, and certainly inflict deep and serious wounds on her.

GRACE: Back to Clark Goldband. Let`s go through the facts as we know them. Explain to me the torturous nature of the case.

GOLDBAND: Yes, Nancy. The facts are absolutely disturbing, and they all trace back to this two-and-a-half-foot machete knife, a two-and-a-half- foot used to hack up this victim like, literally, a piece of meat at a butcher shop. You`re talking about limbs being cut, deep gashes multiple parts of her body, her left hand nearly served, attached only by a piece of skin.

GRACE: We are taking your calls. But I want to go out to Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author. Bethany, explain to me the significance of a machete being used in this case.

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, it tells me that this guy was just a petrie dish full of psychopathology. He probably had everything wrong with him, long-simmering resentment towards her, I would imagine a love of being out of control, like maybe a bipolar or an intermittent explosive disorder that he indulged, and he loved to act crazy. So picking up the machete was very gratifying to him.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say a California man hacked up his live-in girlfriend of 10 years with a two-and-a-half-foot-look machete.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When officers arrived at the suspect`s house, they found a 52-year-old woman dead on the kitchen floor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The cops found the body of his girlfriend face down in their kitchen.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Recovered the weapon near the neighbors` home, a couple doors down.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Crime tape and homicide investigators are an unusual sight in this quiet city.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So severe that Evangeline`s skull had been fractured by multiple hacking wounds to her brain.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They knew each other. They`d been together for a period of time, and this tragic -- this is just -- they had a fight and it ended like this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Torturing his girlfriend.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re pretty confident it`s a murder. We`re also confident that we have the suspect.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We recovered the weapon near the neighbors` home a couple doors down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is definitely a case of they knew each other, They`d been together for a period of time, and this tragedy -- this is just -- they had a fight and it ended like this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: He swears that he is innocent. But if not him, then who? According to police, the victim in this case, a mother, Evangeline Devera, was hacked to death with a two-and-a-half-foot machete. Where do you get a machete? Out to you, C.W. Jensen. Where do you get a machete?

C.W. JENSEN, RETIRED POLICE CAPTAIN: Well, people have all sorts of - - you know, depending on what your yard looks like and things like that, machetes -- I mean, there`s -- honestly, there`s legitimate reasons to have a machete.

Nancy, one of the things -- I mean, I`ve -- I`ve arrested a lot of murderers in my time, and this is one of the most vicious attacks I`ve ever heard of. And I`d also be curious, given the torture claim, whether or not she died of exsanguination. And I had to ask the medical examiner one time, when he said, Well, he died of exsanguination -- I go, What does that mean? He goes, He simple bled to death. He was hurt so bad, but there was no fatal wound, he simply kept getting cut until he bled to death. And you can imagine how horrible a death that is.

GRACE: Let`s talk about that to Dr. Kent Harshbarger, joining us out of Dayton, medical examiner, forensic pathologist. What is that mode of death, doctor?

DR. KENT E. HARSHBARGER, MEDICAL EXAMINER (via telephone): Basically, external loss of blood is exsanguination. So there`s about five liters of blood estimated in an adult person, and you lose 20 percent of that quickly, you can die. So by having these open wounds in the skin, enough blood loss to cause death.

Now, in this case, there`s other injuries to the skull, to the brain, that would explain death without having to reach to that mechanism.

GRACE: What injuries are those?

HARSHBARGER: The skull is fractured. The brain is actually described in the reports as being lacerated, which is a function of the machete. It`s sort of similar to a hammer and a nail. It`s both blunt force and sharp force at one time, focusing all that energy like a bat blow, but into the head of the nail. So it`s a sharp instrument that strikes the skull causing fractures, underlying damage to the brain.

The interesting part you talked about earlier was why wasn`t she screaming, and if she was hit first on the head to prevent screaming. But then does that remove the torture claim? Were the wrists and ankles cut post-mortem in a mutilation of the body -- you know, she was unconscious? (INAUDIBLE) mutilating the body or was he torturing her, cutting her wrists and ankles first, and then hit her in the head?

GRACE: But Dr. Harshbarger, can`t a medical examiner determine whether her hands and feet were severed, were cut off before death or post- mortem?

HARSHBARGER: If it was clearly post-mortem, yes, they could. But if it`s in a peri-mortem period -- so, say she was killed from the head injuries, and then moments later, within minutes, started cutting the hands and feet, we may not be able to tell that it was that close of a timeline relationship.

GRACE: Explain why.

HARSHBARGER: Because there`s no -- the blood loss still may occur. There`s still some residual pressure, or gravity can pull blood into the area. So blood loss could still seep from those wounds, simulating life.

GRACE: So let me just try to put it in civilian terms, layperson terms, if I`m correct. If the wounds where her hands and feet were cut off, severed with a machete, occurred while she was still alive, her heart was still pumping blood and you would be able to tell the wrists and the ankles had bled profusely.

If she were already dead when the hands and the feet were severed, were cut off, the bleeding would be different because her heart`s not pumping blood through her body. Is that correct, Doctor?

HARSHBARGER: That`s exactly correct. And therefore, the scene`s going to become very important. How much blood transfer is there, is there cast (ph) up on he walls, is there high-velocity splattering, is there a big pool of blood, smaller pool of blood, what`s on her clothing, all those things are going to become very important.

GRACE: Mary Knox is joining us out of California, deputy district attorney, Contra Costa County. Ms. Knox, is the state`s theory as to torture that she was dead already, that this poor woman, Evangeline Devera, was dead when her hands and feet were severed or alive?

KNOX: That she was alive when that occurred, given movement in the blood there and the initial crime scene, as well as the position of her body. It appears just from the scene itself and that body positioning that she was, in fact, alive when her hand was severed and her ankles were chopped.

GRACE: You know, Mary Knox, you have quite a reputation, a pristine reputation. I tried a lot of cases, but I never had a case where a victim`s hands and feet were severed, much less with a machete. I cannot imagine what this woman went through.

Ms. Knox, so is that the theory the state`s going on, if they were to seek the death penalty, if they do seek the death penalty?

KNOX: The true (ph) theory would be a special circumstance. At this juncture, we are not prepared to charge the special circumstances (INAUDIBLE) death penalty allegations (ph), but we`ll see how the evidence unfolds at a preliminary hearing, and we`ll consider whether or not to add the death penalty allegations following that hearing.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cops say Evangeline was killed by blunt force and sharp force injury to the head.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say the suspect, a 62-year-old man, was there and turned himself in.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re pretty confident it`s a murder. We`re also confident that we have the suspect.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Investigators wouldn`t say how the woman died, but they did find a weapon.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cops soon arrested Evangeline`s live-in boyfriend, James Collin, and claim that he chopped up his girlfriend of 10 years with a machete.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some of the wounds were inflicted while Evangeline was in a different position than where she ultimately died.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was afternoon when Orinda police got the call. Police say the suspect left his house and went to an elderly neighbor a few doors down and told them to call police. When officers arrived to the suspect`s house, they found a 52-year-old woman dead on the kitchen floor. Police say the suspect, a 62-year-old man, was there and turned himself in. Investigators did find a weapon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls. It leads to the question of where you get a machete to start with. To Clark Goldband. Take it from the top.

GOLDBAND: All right, Nancy. Well, all of a sudden, this gentleman runs over to a neighbor`s house and tells him -- it`s a 94-year-old man -- to call police. He calls police. Law enforcement comes. And according to authorities, what they find, an absolutely gruesome scene, this female in her 50s hacked up with a two-and-a-half-foot machete, on that knife finding blood, hair and even brain matter. Authorities then arrest the man after they say he confesses. However, his motive we still don`t know.

GRACE: You know, another thing, Clark Goldband, that you`re leaving out of that fact scenario -- this isn`t the first time something, in my mind, a felony has gone down in that very same kitchen. Explain.

GOLDBAND: Yes, Nancy. Well, it was all the way back in 1986. That`s when, according to reports and authorities, this gentleman accidentally, at the time it was said, shot and killed his brother. And guess where it was? The same kitchen where this murder allegedly took place.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police respond to a 911 call.

911 OPERATOR: 911, what is your emergency?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When officers arrived at the suspect`s house.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The cops found the body of his girlfriend, Evangeline, face down in their kitchen, surrounded by blood, with multiple gashes on her body.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dead on the kitchen floor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re pretty confident it`s a murder.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Evangeline is surrounded by blood, with deep gashes on the back of her head and a nearly severed left hand attached only by a piece of skin.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We recovered a weapon near the neighbors` home, a couple doors down.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cops soon arrested Evangeline`s live-in boyfriend, James Collin. And claim that he chopped up his girlfriend through the machete.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The victim and suspect had been living together for at least ten years.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The prosecutors say Collin`s attack was so severe, that Evangeline`s skull had been fractured by multiple hacking wounds to her brain.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls, straight out to Laura, in Ohio. Hi, dear, what`s your question?

CALLER: My question is, even though I`ve seen things and I think I know the answer, is there any way she could have gotten -- did she have family? Did she have brothers, sisters, parents? I ask this question, but I have to say I think I know the answer because I was one of a grown woman with children who was attacked, I was beaten, I had broken bones, skull fractures. Is there -- why isn`t there a law that can absolutely, positively give these women some protection to help them get away from these men who are out of their minds?

GRACE: You know, Laura in Ohio, I`m about to reveal another fact that I know is going to be especially distressing to you. Not only was the prior shooting of his brother in that kitchen, nothing was done. The brother was shot in the chest by this same guy, James Collin, nothing was done, he said he was cleaning his shotgun, that he was walking through the home from the bedroom to the garage, and the gun just went off. In the kitchen. And shot the brother directly in the chest. Nothing was done. In addition to that, isn`t it true, Clark Goldband, that there was an `06 assault on the same victim, Evangeline Devera?

GOLDBAND: That`s right, Nancy, it was 2006 when this suspect allegedly grabbed and hit her in the arm with a telephone. It was charged as a domestic assault.

GRACE: And to Mary Knox, deputy district attorney from Contra Costa County, there in the district attorney`s office. Mary, is the `06 assault on the same victim Evangeline significant in this case?

KNOX: Absolutely, Nancy, I believe that prior domestic violence within that household, which resulted in head wounds to Evangeline Devera will certainly be relevant in the prosecution of this case.

GRACE: Out to Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, Bethany, I want to hear your take.

MARSHALL: Well, I think what happened is you have a long history of domestic violence against a very passive woman. One of the neighbors said that they heard her yelling at him that day. And it could be as simple as she had finally found her voice, she was disagreeing with him and had underestimated the fact that he was a malignant narcissist, maybe bipolar, I would say at the very least, intermittent explosive disorder. And what that is, is a wastebasket category for men and individuals for whom the most benign of events are interpreted as an insult. And when they feel insulted they go red, they see red, they go into a violent rage and they go on the attack. So I think you have probably her standing up to him in some benign way and him just completely exploding and then because of that, emotions outpacing his ability to think, and that could have been compounded by profound immaturity, ragefulness, and simmering resentment, even having the machete on hand, because on some level perhaps he was lying in wait, just waiting for the opportunity to lose his temper.

GRACE: Well, I keep asking the question, where do you get a machete? Well, apparently you can get them in a lot of places, Wal-Mart, Home Depot, Lowe`s, I`m not sure for what -- I guess to cut underbrush away.

I want to go back to our caller, Laura in Ohio. Laura, we have now divulged that there was an `06 assault on Evangeline. Evangeline Devera, the same victim, that has now been basically severed and hacked to death with a machete of all things. Laura, does that change your response to this case now that you know this apparently fell through the cracks in the `06 case?

CALLER: No, it does not because I -- I being like I said being somebody who has been abused and a man I -- who had a nice hold on me, I was punched. I would like to know, though, if they determined was there any substance abuse.

GRACE: You mean by the defendant? You know ...

CALLER: By the defendant.

GRACE: You know, to Mary Knox, deputy district attorney, she can`t divulge the state`s game plan here, where they`re going with this. But are there any toxicology reports that show that defendant was under the influence of any type of hallucinogenic drug, anything?

KNOX: I`m not aware of any laboratory analysis that would indicate that he was using any type of controlled substance or hallucinogen.

GRACE: And the reality is, Mary Knox, the voluntarily consumption of alcohol or drugs is typically not a defense.

KNOX: That`s absolutely correct, Nancy.

GRACE: Everybody, we are taking you calls, we are taking you tonight live to Orinda, California, and a heinous crime. A woman drops dead in her own kitchen, there was a microwave and a coffee machine, not from a stroke, not from a heart attack, not from a free accident, she was hacked to death with a machete. Her hands, feet being severed from her body, according to police while she`s still alive. The murder weapon? A machete.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: We are taking your calls. I want to go back out to our special guest, Mary Knox, deputy district attorney joining us out in California.

Is there any possibility that the shooting death of the brother, which was once deemed an accident, same guy shooting his brother in the chest. It`s hard for me to imagine, Mary, and I know this is not enough to get a conviction, that the gun accidentally goes off and shoots the brother right in the chest, kills him with one gunshot wound. Any chance of reopening that or of reopening that 2006 case against the same victim of Evangeline Devera?

KNOX: Nancy, we have reopened the investigation into the shooting death of Tim Collin, and inspector from my office as well as from the sheriff`s office are re-interviewing potential witnesses in the shooting death of Mr. Collin`s brother.

GRACE: You know, Mary, I`m so glad to hear that. Because, Mary, I think you can hear what other callers are saying and when I was listening to Laura in Ohio who was a domestic abuse victim herself, you could just hear, just really the helplessness, the feeling of no empowerment, nothing you can do about it, that these domestic abuse victims feel and everybody can complain, oh, why did she stay with him? But it`s not that simple, Mary Knox, anyone who`s been in the trenches trying these cases where victims of domestic abuse ultimately get killed. It`s not so easy once you`re in that scenario to just walk out. We know, Mary Knox that Devera had a teen daughter, we don`t know all the facts as to why she stayed in this relationship, but what I do know is she was hacked to death with a machete. And answer those facts, Clark Goldband, I know Mary will not comment on facts of the case as she may end up trying. Clark, I want to go to the facts of when he shot his brother many years ago, and it was deemed an accident.

GOLDBAND: Yes, Nancy, there was some type of a malfunction with the gun he was attempting to fix and he claims based on reports at the time, he was trying to fix the gun when all of a sudden, it fired right into his brother Tim`s chest. Now, law enforcement questioned him at the time and the suspect said that he did not remember pulling the trigger.

GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Paul Henderson, Peter Odom, Renee Rockwell also with us, special guest Mary Knox. I want to go out to you, Peter Odom, when I would try a case involving a gun, and I would have the weapon itself in front of the jury, before I ever handed it to someone to identify, took it from the crime lab analyst. I would take the gun, in front of the jury, hold it nose down to the carpet or the floor, open it up, look in it, shake it so they would know there were no bullets in it, so I would know there were no bullets in it. Shut it back, or maybe even leave it open.

ODOM: OK.

GRACE: Leave the chamber open.

ODOM: OK. All reasonable.

GRACE: How is it that the gun goes off, he`s in the bedroom cleaning the shotgun, you have ever heard that one before. And then he walks through the home to go to the garage purportedly and then the gun goes off. He has no memory of pulling the trigger, he says, it just goes off on its own, in the kitchen, directly into his brother`s chest. How does that happen?

ODOM: Well, I suppose we could either assume that he`s guilty based on this new event or we could do it ...

GRACE: All right, you just answer the question ...

ODOM: .. What is more reasonable ...

GRACE: Or should I go to another guest.

ODOM: That`s what I`m doing, Nancy, I`m answering your questions, or we would rely on what the authorities did earlier. I`m assuming that they thoroughly investigated it. Are you claiming that they did something wrong? They looked at all these facts. They-

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: OK, I`m going to go to someone that can give me that scenario. Renee Rockwell, it`s no secret that you are an avid gun aficionado. How would that happen?

ROCKWEL: Nancy, it happens all the time.

GRACE: All the time, because I don`t know a single one that it ever had happened to.

ROCKWELL: Guns kill people all the time accidentally. If this -- if a gun is loaded, which is not illegal and it`s being transported around the house and it accidentally goes off, then someone`s dead. But what happened here in this situation is, they investigate it, by the way the parents are both dead. But they were questioned at that time, was there any problems, were the kids fighting between each other? Was there any argument? And based on that, the police ruled that it was accidental.

GRACE: Well, as you know, from hearing this, I studied it (ph) carefully, the mother and the father were both in separate sections of the home, not in the kitchen, they don`t know what happened in that kitchen. And to you, Paul Henderson, bottom line, the likelihood? He says he`s just walking through the house and suddenly the brother is shot in the chest?

HENDERSON: Well, look, it certainly sounds suspicious in the light of everything else that happens and you heard the prosecution say that they have been reopening ...

GRACE: What was the machete hacking? An accident, too?

HENDERSON: We obviously know that that wasn`t. But I think it`s really telling they`re actually going to have the machete so that they ...

(CROSSTALK)

HENDERSON: Obviously. And they are going to have that machete, you will see that machete used in court. You know, it certainly doesn`t bode well and it looks like that whole situation that happened in the past is a bad scene.

GRACE: Right now, "CNN Heroes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TESA FITZGERALD: Across our nation, there are thousands of mothers behind bars. I have never met a woman inside who said, gee, I`m going to go out and I`m going to really mess up again.

(on camera): What`s the lesson you learned here?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not to ever come back.

FITZGERALD (voice over): The depths of her guilty, what she`s done to this child is unbelievable and they want to do everything to make it right. But they`re always unsure whether it`s really going to work.

(on camera): I`m Sister Tesa Fitzgerald. And I happily work with incarcerated mothers to keep their families together and to rebuild their lives.

When women come out of prison, they`re so vulnerable.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`s the hardest part?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not having money, not having a job, it feels like there`s no way out.

FITZGERALD (voice over): A home is the heart of what`s going to make their life possible.

(on camera): Now, good to see you! How are you? You`re back home!

FITZGERALD (on camera): We give them a lot of love, a lot of support. Around her is a community who have seen growth and change.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But once you forgive yourself, (inaudible), trust me, it`s going to be all right.

FITZGERALD (voice over): Over time broken bonds have been mended and there can now be a wholeness to their life.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, it`s Kelly from the mentoring program.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was a crackhead. I gave birth while I was still incarcerated. I just didn`t know how I was going to change my life.

Sister Tesa didn`t just save me, she saved my entire family, which made me proud of who I am today.

FITZGERALD: It`s everyone`s right to live the best life that they can. And when I start seeing that takes place in the women that I`ve worked with and I love ...

(on camera): I`m very proud of you!

(voice over): That makes it all worthwhile.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Straight out to the lines, to Amanda in North Carolina. Hi, Amanda, what`s your question?

CALLER: I`m just wondering, have they sent cops to the house before for domestic dispute, and if so, how many times?

GRACE: Well, I know for sure in 2006, to Mary Knox, were there other incidents that -- on which cops arrived at the scene?

KNOX: We are not aware of any other calls to the house related to domestic violence.

GRACE: You know I find it very interesting this use, Dave Mack, morning talk show host, of the AAX, of a machete. Now, the first time there was a homicide in the home, I believe that the first shooting of his own brother was a homicide. That was deemed to be an accident at the time, there were no witnesses, other than the defendant himself. There`s no way they can claim accident or self-defense with a machete hacking this many times and the cutting of the feet, of the hands, severing them from the body?

MACK: Nancy, there`s some really interesting things compiled in here that you`re putting together. Look, how long does it take in this torturing attack on his -- the woman he had lived with for ten years? He is using a machete, a two and a half-foot-long blade that ends up with hair and brain matter on it, how long did this go on? He had to have incapacitated her fairly quickly, but then that`s when he went ahead and started hacking, that`s when he almost hacked her left hand off. That`s when they thought the hack marks on her ankles.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The body of Evangeline face down on her kitchen floor, Evangeline surrounded by blood with deep gashes on the back of her head and a nearly severed left hand attached only by a piece of skin.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls. Back to Henry K. Lee, reporter with "The San Francisco Chronicle." What`s the likelihood that this is going to result in a death penalty case? And the mode of death in that jurisdiction is gas or lethal injection.

LEE: Well, at this point, as Mary Knox indicated, they will have to wait until after the preliminary hearing to determine whether to lodge a special circumstance of torture. But as they have charged it right now, Nancy, torture conviction will lead to life in prison sentence and, of course, if he is convicted of murder one that`s 25 to life, murder two, 15 to life. So it remains to be seen whether or not he could face death.

GRACE: Mary Knox with us, deputy district attorney there. Mary, after the preliminary hearing, does the district attorney`s office make the charging decision, bring the indictment or do you use a grand jury?

KNOX: After the preliminary hearing, the district attorney`s office will decide whether or not to file a special circumstance.

GRACE: And so, you guys make that decision so it does not go to a grand jury after the prelim?

KNOX: Correct.

GRACE: Mary, in a California preliminary hearing, is it the general theory, consensus that you put up a lot of your case or put up just enough of your case, a bare bones case, to get over the hump for that indictment?

KNOX: The legal standard in California is proof to a reasonable or strong suspicion. So, I won`t be presenting our entire case at the preliminary hearing, but may perhaps put the coroner on to talk about the different injuries and wounds and when they were inflicted. And perhaps a criminalist to discuss the blood evidence that was there in the kitchen that may explain how and when the different wounds were inflicted to Evangeline.

GRACE: Mary Knox this may have been before your time, but I recall in the preliminary hearing for the O.J. Simpson double-murder trial, so many witnesses were put up that the defense got basically, you know, two swings at the ball, two bites of the apple because they got to cross-examine a ton of state`s witnesses before the trial ever even happened. They were put up at prelim. Your trial strategy is right on, as usual, Mary Knox.

Everyone, let`s stop and remember Marine Corporal Michael Louett (ph), 28, Manchester, New Hampshire, killed, Afghanistan. Purple Heart combat action and the National Defense Service Medal, on a third tour. Loved hiking, traveling, all things New Orleans. Cooking. Attended San Francisco`s California Culinary. Leaves behind parents, Donna and Leonard, sister, Stephanie, brother, Alan. Michael Louett, American hero. Thanks to our guest and especially to you. Especially tonight from the New York control room, joining us this time, there is our producer for tonight, Danny, Dana -- I think everybody else is kind of hiding tonight. Rosie, everyone stay tuned for Jane Velez coming up next. And I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.

END