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NANCY GRACE

Grandmother Shoots Teen Grandson to Death

Aired July 18, 2012 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Bloomfield Hills. A quiet community lined with luxury golf courses and tree-lined streets reeling when a teenage boy calls 911 frantically begging for help. He`s then shot. Police race to the scene to find the boy face down in a pool of blood.

Bombshell tonight. Five gunshot wounds to the chest, the stomach, the arms, his life ebbing away. On the line with 911, the boy actually shot again. You can hear it on 911. Perpetrator? The boy`s poodle-loving green thumb 74-year-old gun-toting grandma! Granny, you`re going to jail!

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Frantic family energy, a teenager`s terrifying 911 call.

911 OPERATOR: 911. What`s your emergency?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve just been shot.

911 OPERATOR: What? Who?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve just been shot!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Even more shocking, the woman he identified as the shooter...

911 OPERATOR: OK, how did you get shot?

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... my grandma shot me!

911 OPERATOR: Your grandma and grandpa shot you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My grandma. I`m going to die! Help.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He told a dispatcher he had been shot by his grandmother several times.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sandra Layne. This is a real bizarre case.

911 OPERATOR: Are you there?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ow! Help me! Help me! I got shot again! Help me!

911 OPERATOR: You got shot again? Are they still there?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ow! Ow!

911 OPERATOR: Are they still there?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Please help! Ow!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hoffman was living with his grandparents. He and Layne were the only two home at the time of the shooting.

911 OPERATOR: Where are you shot?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My arms and my chest.

911 OPERATOR: Your chest?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When officers arrived, she commented that she had just murdered her grandson.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She killed the person that she loved. There are no winners. She`s in her own hell.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, live, Fall River. An armed and hooded robber blasts into a local convenience store, broad daylight, goes straight for the cash register. One thing he didn`t plan, a store clerk with an aluminum bat. After the clerk beats the robber to save his own life, tonight, is the store clerk facing criminal charges? Tonight, we have the video.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Take a look at this! A man enters a convenience store with a knife and is preparing to rob it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He (INAUDIBLE) Give me money, give me money.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The clerk, unaware, finishes microwaving his lunch. Then the robbery attempt. But the clerk doesn`t hide. He fights back!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The employee was determined. He threw his lunch at the hooded suspect, then a jug of water.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But the perp stays. That`s when the clerk grabs a baseball bat and begins swinging, nailing him!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Grabbing the bat, raising it above his head and hitting him in the arm. And that`s what did it. The suspect had had enough.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The knife-carrying robber is smashed multiple times and then retreats. He`s on the loose tonight.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. Live, Bloomfield Hills, a teenage boy calls 911, frantically begging for help. He`s been shot. The police race to the scene to find the boy face down in a pool of blood. Perpetrator? The boy`s poodle-loving 74-year-old gun-toting grandma!

We are taking your calls. But first, straight out to Dave Mack, joining us from WAAX. Dave, what happened?

DAVE MACK, WAAX: Nancy, it`s a crazy situation, where a 17-year-old troubled youth living with grandma and grandpa, then having a confrontation with granny that escalates. She apparently, allegedly...

GRACE: Whoa! Whoa! Wait! Wait! Wait! Hold on! When you say a confrontation, you make it sound two-sided. But isn`t it true the boy had no weapon, not a knife, not a gun, not an anything? Grandma was the one toting the gun.

MACK: You`re right, Nancy. When I said confrontation, I was trying to allude to the fact that he`s 17 years old, she`s got the gun, he`s got a phone. The fact that she has shot him five times makes you understand there`s a whole lot more to this story than just a granny going crazy.

GRACE: Let`s take a listen to the 911 call.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

911 OPERATOR: Are you there?

911 OPERATOR: Where`s the father at now?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello?

911 OPERATOR: Are you there?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ow! Help me! I got shot again. Help me!

911 OPERATOR: You got shot again. Are they still there?

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ow! Ow! Ow!

911 OPERATOR: Are they still there?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: To Florence Walton, WWJ reporter. Florence, the guy`s on the phone, the boy. You can hear his voice getting weaker and weaker and weaker. He says, "I`m dying." Then he gets shot again on the phone!

FLORENCE WALTON, WWJ NEWSRADIO 950 (via telephone): I know. It seems as if she left the room for a moment and then came back. And at one point, she`s saying, I`m going to go get you a glass of water. She seemed really composed. But by the time the police arrived, she was hysterical. They testified that she was just screaming, I murdered my grandson.

GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight, Becca Crumrine, family law attorney, Parag Shah, defense attorney and author joining me out of Atlanta, and veteran defense attorney Penny Douglas Furr.

All right, first to you, Parag Shah. The boy is on the phone saying, "I`m dying." In fact, you can hear him. In your practice, I`m sure you`ve heard a lot of 911 calls as you`re sitting there at defense counsel table in front of a jury. And you actually hear the victim dying, this boy, who`s, like, 5-5. He weighs about 110 pounds, pale, frail. He`s dying. He`s dying on the phone, begging for help. And he knows he`s dying.

Then you hear -- you can hear Granny come back in and shoot him again while he`s down! Let`s hear your defense.

PARAG SHAH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, the defense is that there was a break in that 911 call before she got -- before he got shot. We don`t know if, when she came in, he tried to make a violent move towards her, and she again was defending herself.

GRACE: Put him up! I want to see his face, please. She`s saying, I`m going to bring you a glass of water. Thanks, Grandma -- glass of water, hold the bullets. What about it, Penny Douglas Furr?

PENNY DOUGLAS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, the fact that she went out to get a gun shows that she`s thinking, and there`s some reason in her mind that she`s in fear. So I would send her for psychiatric testing to find out if it`s an unreasonable fear.

GRACE: Oh, you know what, Penny? I`m sure you would. Let`s talk some sense into this case. Let`s inject a little common sense here. Becca, weigh in.

BECCA CRUMRINE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: This is the most malicious species of murder. I mean, this child`s saying, Help me. He`s seated (ph). And then she goes point-blank and -- and fires again. There is no - - there`s no defense for that. He was helpless. You heard him on the 911 tape, "Help me, help." There`s no way that he was coming at her.

GRACE: Let`s see if there are other facts that we can cull from this. Out to Ellie Jostad, our chief editorial producer. Ellie, take it from the top. What do we know?

ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, there -- there`s two sides to this story. Now, apparently, what happened is that the day of the shooting, Jonathan Hoffman (ph), the victim, had gone to a drug test which tested positive for synthetic marijuana in his system. He and his grandmother fought about that. The defense claims that this fight escalated to the point...

GRACE: Ellie!

JOSTAD: Yes?

GRACE: Ellie, dear, please don`t tell me that you, in your youthful innocence, believe that marijuana would make this kid, let me say, bombastic, antagonistic, begging for a fight, agitated. No, I would think that he would, like, go and lay down and catch some Andy in Mayberry and fall asleep having some chips...

JOSTAD: Right.

GRACE: ... after synthetic marijuana.

JOSTAD: Right. Yes, Nancy. And that -- and that`s the problem -- one of the problems with the defense here. You know, the grandmother`s attorney is claiming that they get into this big argument. He demands the keys from Grandma. He demands money from her. He`s says he`s going to take off. She tries to stop him.

So he claims, the defense is, that the victim was actually preventing the grandma from leaving, that he was holding onto her and wouldn`t let go. That`s why he says she had to shoot him. Now, the other side says...

GRACE: Because he was holding onto her?

JOSTAD: Right, and...

GRACE: And wouldn`t let go?

JOSTAD: Right.

GRACE: So she had to shoot him? My twins hold onto me every day and won`t let me go.

JOSTAD: Well, exactly, and...

GRACE: I don`t think that shooting him is the right alternative, Ellie!

JOSTAD: Well, Nancy, you know, obviously, the police and the prosecutor agree here. And the victim`s father says this is a kid who was a computer genius. He was never violent. He may have experimented a little bit with drugs, but he certainly was no drug addict with some raging drug problem.

He says the defense is now, you know, totally destroying his son`s reputation and that the grandmother is the one who may have been unstable here. He never would have left the grandson, the victim, in this home if he`d known what was really going on there.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Ricci in Texas. Hi, Ricci. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. You`re awesome. I absolutely don`t think that this grandma has any chance at holding up with self-defense in court. I think it`s absolutely ridiculous.

And I agree with your comment about marijuana, even the Spice. There`s no way it`s going to make him aggressive, anything like that. Granny`s gone. I think she`s in the pen for a long time.

GRACE: Ricci in Texas, I got to agree with you. But for those of you who are undecided, let`s take a listen to the 911 call again.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

911 OPERATOR: 911, what`s your emergency?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve just been shot.

911 OPERATOR: What? Who?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve just been shot.

911 OPERATOR: Where are you at?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (DELETED) Brookview Lane.

911 OPERATOR: Brookview. In what city?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: West Bloomfield.

911 OPERATOR: OK, how did you get shot?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My grand -- my grandma shot me.

911 OPERATOR: Your grandma and grandpa shot you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My grandma. I`m going to die. Help!

911 OPERATOR: OK, we`re going to have -- stay on the phone with me, OK, sir? I`m going to get help on the way. I`m going to get help on the way, OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Help!

911 OPERATOR: Sir?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where`s the father at now?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello?

911 OPERATOR: Are you there?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ow! Help me! Help me! I got shot again. Help me!

911 OPERATOR: You got shot again? Are they still there?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My stomach! Ow! Ow! Ow!

911 OPERATOR: Are they still there?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Please help! Ow!

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

911 OPERATOR: 911, what`s your emergency.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve been shot.

911 OPERATOR: What? Who?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve just been shot.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On this frantic 911 call, you can hear the gunfire that would end up killing 17-year-old Jonathan Hoffman.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ow! Help me! I got shot again!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He told a dispatcher he had been shot by his grandmother several times.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Grandma -- grandma shot me.

911 OPERATOR: Your grandma and grandpa shot you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My grandma. I`m going to die. Help!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls. We are live. When police race to the scene after a frantic 911 call from this teen boy, they find out the alleged perpetrator is not some thug off the street, it`s a 74-year-old grandmother, his grandmother.

And not only that, on the 911 call, you hear the boy saying -- and you hear his voice getting weaker and weaker -- "I`m dying." And then, Oh, I`ve been shot again.

We are taking your calls. Out to Jerry in Texas. Hi, Jerry. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Nancy. I want to know if a toxicology report is going to be done to find out if this kid was actually on more than just the synthetic marijuana?

GRACE: It`s my understanding a toxicology report has been done, and he is only on synthetic marijuana. And for those of you that are not familiar with it, there are a lot of street names for it, Spice, K2, Mr. Smiley -- that`s a good one -- Red X Dawn and Blaze. Metabolics of synthetic marijuana were present in his urine. No traces in his blood, not under the influence at the time of death.

That is exceedingly important, is it not? With me, specialist Dr. William Morrone, not only medical examiner, forensic pathologist, but toxicologist, as well. What does this say, Dr. Morrone?

DR. WILLIAM MORRONE, MEDICAL EXAMINER/TOXICOLOGIST (via telephone): What it says specifically is that there is no synthetic cannabis in his blood. You would not expect the effects of the cannabis -- now, synthetic cannabis is more powerful than natural cannabis. But when it`s in the urine, it`s a metabolite. And it`s more than hours old and sometimes days old. But he may have been in withdrawal.

GRACE: Dr. Morrone, what is the effect of synthetic marijuana? What -- is it like regular pot, where you just veg out on the sofa and eat everything out of the fridge?

MORRONE: The answer to that is we have seen more delusions, hallucination and confusion and agitation with synthetic marijuana. And in two months, our poison control center had over 200 reports of overdoses with synthetic marijuana.

GRACE: But wait a minute. Dr. Morrone, I appreciate all that.

MORRONE: Sure.

GRACE: But this grandmother had no bruises, no marks on her. Her hair wasn`t even disheveled, nothing, nothing at all. And not only that, up until about a year or so ago, you could buy this stuff at convenience stores and smoke shops over the counter.

MORRONE: But that doesn`t make it safe.

GRACE: Well, I didn`t say it made it safe. I`m saying this kid was not on some crazy evil rant.

MORRONE: But if it`s going to end up being 5 to 200 times more potent than natural cannabis, without FDA approval, and without studying -- this stuff is made in secret laboratories in China and imported and then distributed on the black market to gas stations. And the DEA and the FDA are trying to clamp down on it being sold because it really needs to be regulated.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Welcome back. After a frantic 911 call, where a young boy says he`s dying from gunshot wounds, police actually can hear another gunshot on the 911 call. When they arrive, the boy face down in a pool of blood. The alleged perpetrator, his 74-year-old grandmother.

We are taking your calls. Judy, Kentucky. Hi, Judy. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thanks for taking my call. I`m just curious, where is his mother? Like, why is he living with the grandmother? And why shoot him twice when he`s -- even -- I don`t care how many drugs he was on. Why shoot him the second time to kill him? He might have been...

GRACE: Hey, Judy, try five times, five gunshot wounds.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh!

GRACE: That`s -- that`s why I`m screaming, Judy!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m horrified.

GRACE: The boy is down, and she continues shooting. That`s why I`m having a hard time understanding any self-defense claim, when somebody`s already been shot multiple times.

To Ellie Jostad. Where`s Mom and Dad?

JOSTAD: Well, Nancy, the reason that Jonathan Hoffman was living with his parents is -- or living with his grandparents is because his parents had just recently moved to Arizona. The parents say they came up with an agreement with grandma. She actually offered to let him live with her while he finished his senior year of high school. So that`s why he was there. That`s why the parents lived out of state.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Frantic family emergency. A teenager`s terrifying 911 call.

911 OPERATOR: 911, what`s your emergency?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Help! I`ve just been shot.

911 OPERATOR: What? Who?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve just been shot.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Even more shocking, the woman he identified as the shooter.

911 OPERATOR: OK, how did you get shot? Who shot you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) My grand -- my grandma shot me.

911 OPERATOR: Your grandma and grandpa shot you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My grandma. I`m going to die. Help.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He told a dispatcher he had been shot by his grandmother several times.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sandra Layne. This is a real bizarre case.

911 OPERATOR: Are you there?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ow! Help me! Help me! I got shot again! Help me!

911 OPERATOR: You got shot again? Are they still there?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ow! Ow!

911 OPERATOR: Are they still there?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Please help! Ow!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hoffman was living with his grandparents. He and Layne were the only two home at the time of the shooting.

911 OPERATOR: Where are you shot?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My arms and my chest (INAUDIBLE)

911 OPERATOR: Your chest?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My chest.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When officers arrived, she commented that she had just murdered her grandson.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She killed the person that she loved. There are no winners. She`s in her own hell.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. When police arrive at the scene, they find the boy face down in a pool of blood. Who`s the perpetrator? According to police, his 74-year-old grandmother. As he says he is, quote, "dying" on the 911 call, you can hear yet another gunshot in the background as he screams out in agony.

Question to you, Florence Walton, WWJ. Was the grandmother drinking or on drugs of any type?

WALTON: There`s been no reports that she`s on drugs or anything at all.

GRACE: To Brad Lamm, board-certified interventionist, author of "How to Help the One You Love." And also joining us, Gary Berger, a neighbor that witnessed the shooting.

First to you, Brad Lamm. What is this synthetic marijuana everybody`s talking about? To me, if it`s stronger than marijuana, that means that you would just stay on the sofa eating chips longer than you normally would have.

BRAD LAMM, INTERVENTIONIST: It`s not that, Nancy, not that at all. In fact, the name "synthetic marijuana" makes it seem like it`s no big deal. And it, in fact, has a high propensity for addiction and causing psychosis.

Remember the case just last month in Waco, Texas, the fellow was eating his dog? He was in a K2 or synthetic marijuana episode. I`m seeing very, very sick clients that are using this drug. It is not your grandma`s marijuana.

GRACE: Well, actually, Brad, I don`t think either of my grandmothers, may god rest their souls, used marijuana.

LAMM: I agree with you.

GRACE: But thanks for that suggestion.

LAMM: And not -- and not my grandmother either. But it`s not the kind of pot that we -- so many of our grandparents grew up using or saying, it`s not that bad. It is very, very bad.

GRACE: To Gary Berger, the neighbor of Sandra Layne, who witnessed the shooting.

Gary, joining us from Bloomfield, thank you for being with us. I wanted to hear all the news reports and all the evidence before I came to you, and I want to hear what if anything you observed that day.

GARY BERGER, NEIGHBOR OF SANDRA LAYNE, WITNESSED SHOOTING: Well, I was on the -- sitting there and I heard the sounds and I yelled back, and is somebody shooting a gun? And there was no answer because a branch have fallen. Gotten out of the street was one of the shots that came out of the house. So I called 911 telling there`s a shooting going on back here somewhere. And then I called next door to see if they knew anything was going on and the boy answered the phone, and he said I have been shot in the chest by my grandmother.

So I hung up and I called 911 back and I told them that there`s a shooting going on next door. And within about five minutes, the West Bloomfield Police were there. And I thought I was in some TV show going on because I couldn`t believe what was going on. I live in a very, very passive community and this is a bizarrest thing that happened.

But I stayed in the house until the police came, and then I saw Miss Layne being escorted out of the house with handcuffs behind her and then I think half of the West Bloomfield Police were there. But it was unbelievable. Unbelievable. I have never seen anything in my life like this.

GRACE: Gary, I know that you know her, 74-year-old Sandra Layne, the shooting victim`s grandmother. What is she like? What is her nature and demeanor? I know she`s a gardener.

BERGER: Yes, she`s a very, very, very nice woman. Her and her husband, I have lived next door to them for about 12 years, and it`s -- it`s strange, but I graduated high school in Detroit, (INAUDIBLE) as a matter of fact. And I know she`s a retired schoolteacher. I do know that during that period. But I know in her later life, she sold real estate, but never a bad word, always nice to me, talked about gardening, her poodle and whatever.

But I thought she was really a nice woman. It`s hard for me to conceive that something like this happened. The only thing that I can say is that this young man agitated to her to such a degree. I knew there was some confrontations prior to that out of the front porch where the police had come, with a lot of screaming and yelling and profanity. But I don`t think it`s been pleasant over there.

GRACE: Can I ask you, Gary Berger -- this is Miss Layne`s neighbor -- when you`re saying profanity on the front porch, it`s really hard for me to imagine. Yes, I know she shot the boy five times.

BERGER: Well, during that --

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: She was on the front porch yelling and cursing?

BERGER: No, no. That was something that happened about three months prior to that, when the police had come because there was a -- somebody called, I don`t know who called, but they showed up because of all the screaming. And that was about three months ago.

GRACE: Who was doing the screaming?

BERGER: The young man.

GRACE: All right, Brad Lamm, what do you make of -- Gary Berger, before I get away from you, the shooting occurred on the second floor loft.

BERGER: Right.

GRACE: Wasn`t that where the boy slept?

BERGER: Yes, she was -- we have exactly the same configuration condo. These are attached condos. And there`s a loft, but the loft is also a bedroom. It can be turned -- and I understand that`s where the young man stayed while his parents were in Arizona.

GRACE: Yes, it`s my understanding the parents are stunned, they had no idea there was any disruption whatsoever going on in the home.

Back to the lawyers. Becca Crumrine, Parag Shah, and Penny Douglass Furr.

Parag, that means to me that grandma -- let`s see the floor plan again, please, Liz. Grandma went up to the boy`s room to shoot him? That`s not her bedroom. So she had to pursue him up to his bedroom, upstairs to shoot him.

Parag Shah, that is of legal significance, explain.

PARAG SHAH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think the most important thing to think about here is that if she`s suffering from a type of mental disability. OK? And she`s having --

GRACE: OK, she does not have a mental disability, Parag. You got to -- Penny, come on, let`s just -- let`s just play straight with the viewers just for tonight, just to be crazy. She doesn`t have a mental problem. The grandmother does not have a mental problem, all right? Nothing. You just heard the neighbor.

If there`s any problem at all, the victim may have a problem with this synthetic marijuana, Penny, but I just am asking you the narrow question of what`s the legal significance that she had to go up there or pursue him to get up to his second floor bedroom loft. That`s significant.

PENNY DOUGLASS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it`s significant because she had the ability to get away, because she left and came back, so if she wasn`t there, she could have left.

GRACE: Exactly.

DOUGLASS FURR: And you`re right, she does not appear to have a mental disability, but the only thing that makes sense is that she has delusional disorder. That`s the only thing that makes any sense whatsoever.

GRACE: Well, it could be something else, Penny, and I`m going to give the defense attorneys something tonight.

Caryn Stark, even if unfounded, according to us, could she have been afraid because she`s got her grandson and suddenly he`s acting strangely and erratically? It may not really be self-defense, but could it be self- defense in the mind of a 74-year-old grandmother?

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: It certainly could be self-defense in the mind of the grandmother, Nancy, but you have to take a look at this picture. This is not your usual grandmother. This is like a wolf in grandma`s clothing. What was she doing with a gun to begin with? And unless she didn`t know the difference between right and wrong, which she clearly knew what she was doing, she went down, she got the gun.

It`s hard to imagine how she could feel that threatened. Maybe she was overcome with rage and aggression and it had been building up inside of her, but there is nothing that can defend this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Take a look at this, a man enters a convenience store with a knife and is preparing to rob it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He keeps asking me to give me money, give me money.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The clerk unaware, finishes microwaving his lunch. Then the robbery attempt. But the clerk doesn`t hide. He fights back.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The employee was determined. He threw his lunch at the hooded suspect then a jug of water.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But the perp stays. That`s when the clerk grabs a baseball bat, and begin swinging, nailing him.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Grabbing the bat, raising it above his head and hitting him in the arm. And that`s what did it. The suspect had had enough.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The knife-carrying robber is smacked multiple times and then retreats. He`s on the loose tonight.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Could he face charges? The convenience store clerk minding his own business when a -- an armed and hooded robber comes in, goes straight for the cash register. What the robber didn`t plan on is that the clerk had a friend, an aluminum bat. Now the clerk, bat beats the robber away from the store, but could he now face charges?

We are taking your calls, to Alan Zarek with WSAR joining us out of Somerset.

Alan, what happened?

ALAN ZAREK, REPORTER, WSAR 1480 AM: What happened was basically this guy apparently had been casing the store for several days from what we know and entered the store carrying a large kitchen knife. The clerk then saw him, started throwing food that he was microwaving, then a jug of water then grabbed one of the three bats that are behind the counter.

This is a store that has been robbed several times over the last year, a year and a half, (INAUDIBLE). Their owner basically won`t tolerate it anymore. If they have a problem, then out comes the bats.

GRACE: Matt Zarrell?

MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE STAFFER, COVERING STORY: Yes, Nancy, this happened in the middle of the day on Monday. Now what happens is is that the suspect is trying to get a gate open to get behind the counter to get to the register. That is when the clerk starts throwing stuff at him, including his lunch, a jug of water, and then he reaches for the bat. He connects with him at least once, and when he puts the bat over his head to hit him again, that`s when the suspect who is carrying a knife, mind you, gets scared and runs out of the store.

GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Penny Douglass Furr, Parag Shah, Becca Crumrine.

All right, Penny Douglass Furr, what`s the victim going to complain about? I was assaulted with one of those 7-Eleven microwave burritos and a bat?

DOUGLASS FURR: Well, Nancy, he`s defending self or property and the guy came after him with a gun, so I bet -- doubt very seriously that he would be charged.

GRACE: You know what? I hope you`re right. Parag Shah?

SHAH: Yes, absolutely. He should been charged at all, it`s self- defense. And one point for my people.

GRACE: Yes, I somehow don`t think that I would claim -- you know what, never mind, if you want to claim some bat victim as your peep. You know, Becca Crumrine, weigh in.

BECCA CRUMRINE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, clearly it was self-defense. He -- the water bottle didn`t stop him and he kept on coming. So he clearly needed to continue on with the bat.

GRACE: Well, I`ll tell you what, the law is so crazy, John Lucich, former criminal investigator, president, E Forensics. Right now there is talk of charging the convenience store clerk with aggravated assault with a weapon.

JOHN LUCICH, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR, PRESIDENT, E FORENSICS: That`s ridiculous. I don`t believe there`s any self-respecting officer out there that`s going to charge this guy. Sometimes you find out that these little prosecutors will go after a guy for that, but I can`t believe that any cop is going to charge this guy. This guy was well within his rights. And he stopped. He didn`t pursue this guy further and give him an additional beating he probably needed. He stopped as soon as the guy walk -- ran away and stopped the attack. That`s -- he did the right thing at the right time.

GRACE: April in West Virginia. Hi, April, what`s your question?

APRIL, CALLER FROM WEST VIRGINIA: Hi, Nancy. I`m a huge fan. My question is was anybody injured in that incident?

GRACE: Well, obviously the robber was injured. He took a crack on the head with an aluminum baseball bat. Needless to say, the store clerk hit a homerun on his noggin, so yes, he was hurt.

But here`s the kicker, Caryn Stark, he hasn`t gone to the hospital. There have been no reports. So he knows he could be charged with robbery. Right now they are actually looking for the victim, the bat-beating victim. But if I were the police and I got a hold of him, forget about him being the victim in the crime, I`d charge him with armed robbery, attempted armed robbery, Caryn Stark.

STARK: Absolutely, Nancy. I mean, here`s somebody who`s a hero. He was overcome with adrenaline. It`s very interesting because you`re looking at fight or a flight, which is a primitive response, something that happens when in the old days when there was a tiger in a tree. And this guy faced with this kind of situation, the person who was the clerk actually did a very heroic thing and went after the guy which you would never really want to tell anyone to do because it was very dangerous.

GRACE: All I know is I want this 7-Eleven store clerk at my 7-Eleven.

STARK: Yes, yes, I agree.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A man enters a convenience store with a knife and is preparing to rob it. The clerk, unaware, finishes microwaving his lunch then the robbery attempt. But the clerk doesn`t hide. He fights back.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: This aluminum baseball bat is what completely threw off the suspect making him give up and get out. Surveillance video captured inside Sunny`s Convenience Store shows him bust in. The clerk who is sitting in the corner, microwaving his lunch, jumps up and reacts. Storeowner Brijesh Patel says his employee was determined. He threw his lunch at the hooded suspect then a jug of water before grabbing the bat, raising it above his head, and hitting him in the arm. And that`s what did it. The suspect had had enough.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Now there`s talk that the clerk could face criminal charges. Absolutely absurd. Now a lot of incidents have resulted in talk of charging what we perceive to be the victim. July 13th, this just happened, video showing a patron at a Florida Internet cafe shot and injured, two armed men stormed the business in a robbery attempt. Check it out. Look at this. Here -- oh, there you go. There you go. Vigilante grandpa. All right, he better not face charges.

Then July the 3rd, this has just happened in Mississippi. Video actually shows a man`s attempted armed robbery, in this case he`s stopped by his own mother. Take a look. Keep watching. Whoa, what`s that in your pants? Ow, a .38. Hold on, it ain`t over yet. All over a bag of Doritos and $35. Here we go, here we go. And bring down the hammer, mommy. Oh, no, you are not, son. You give me that gun.

All right. March 2012, video shows a man attempting to rob a Burger King, but the employees stop the attack. Oh, no, you will not. We`ll have it our way, people.

Listen, in none of these and many, many, many other similar cases are the victims deemed to be criminals. So I don`t understand why there`s any talk in this particular case of this guy, the bat-beating convenience store clerk, facing felony charges, charges of aggravated assault.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A would-be robber comes into a convenience store and demands money, but this clerk isn`t going to give him a penny. Instead, he gives him a beating, courtesy of a baseball bat. The knife- carrying robber is smacked multiple times and then retreats. He`s on the loose tonight.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: He says his clerk is just 22 years old and has dealt with this kind of crime before. Behind the counter they actually have three bats just in case.

The suspect was armed with a large kitchen knife. You can see he was carrying it in his right hand but clearly that did not deter this clerk by any means.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Now there`s talk of actually charging the convenience store clerk. I think he should get clerk of the year and this is not the first time. You want some more? I`ll give you some more.

May 2012, this past May, Walgreens pharmacist foils a late-night armed robbery by shooting the gunman. And then guess what happens? They fire the pharmacist.

Hey, you know what? Leave that town. Forget about Michigan. You need to come work at the Walgreens near me and the twins, Mr. Pharmacist.

All right, November, video shows an armed robbery foiled at a comfort inn. Guess what? The victim? A mixed martial arts expert.

All right, Penny Douglass Furr, what`s with the talk of charging the victim?

DOUGLASS FURR: Well, there are a lot of prosecutors who I`m sure that think, well, you should have backed off. But when somebody comes to rob you, Nancy, especially if they have a weapon you have the right to defend yourself with like force. And if somebody has a knife then you have the right to have a bat. They have a gun, then you have the right to have a gun. So I think it`s outrageous. I think they should not be charged.

GRACE: Only one correction, Penny. I say they`ve got a gun, I`ve got a right to a cannon.

Out to Kelly in Arkansas, hi, Kelly. What`s your question, dear?

KELLY, CALLER FROM ARKANSAS: Yes, Nancy, I agree with you completely. He has a right to defend himself and his property. But my concern is this. I`ve read several reports that this particular convenience store has had more than one attempt or more than one robbery. What are the owners going to do to protect their staff and their patrons? Because, I mean, evidently there`s a serious problem there.

And I don`t know if it`s a matter of a push button or a call switch, there`s got to be something that can done because not every convenience store clerk is going to be like this guy, you know, and take the law into his own hands and defend himself.

So is there anything being done with regards to the owners because they --

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: You know, Kelly in Arkansas, you`re right. And the clerk is lucky. Of course I think he should lead the Macy`s Day Parade, but next time the robber could have a gun, not a switchblade. So that`s my concern. I think you`re right, and this is a word to the wise to all the convenience store owners out there.

Let`s stop and remember, Marine Gunnery Sergeant David Spicer, 33, Gainesville, Ohio, killed Afghanistan. Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Joint Service Achievement Medal, buried Arlington, on his fourth wedding anniversary. Also served Iraq. Leaves behind parents Sandra and Gary, three brothers, one sister, widow Kate, daughter Abigail, son Chance.

David Spicer, American hero.

Thanks to our gets but especially to you. And tonight a special good night from Georgia friends, Aaron and Jasmine. Isn`t she beautiful? And speaking of Aaron, he is the only quad in the world that owns his own moving company called the Furniture Taxi. Wow.

Dr. Drew up next, everyone. I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END