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NANCY GRACE

10-year-old Charged With Murdering 12-year-old Friend

Aired January 19, 2012 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, San Diego suburbs. A close-knit community reeling after a 12-year-old little boy on the honor roll at school stabbed to death in the driveway. Bombshell tonight. In a bizarre twist, cops hone in on suspect number one, a 10-year-old!

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The smiling face of 12-year-old Ryan Carter.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A straight-A student.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Honor student Ryan Carter.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was stabbed once in the heart and died.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The alleged perp, a 10-year-old boy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The little boy that committed an awful act.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A 10-year-old boy suspected of stabbing a 12- year-old playmate to death.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They played together, had sleepovers.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How many times was the victim stabbed?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The 10-year-old boy who lives here brought the kitchen knife and was going after another boy when Ryan tried to break things up.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His mother told our media partner, "He was our only child. I tried for 10 years to conceive him."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That son now dead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He snapped. He did it. It was over with.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight, live, San Diego suburbs. A close-knit community is reeling when a 12-year-old little boy on the honor roll at school stabbed to death in the driveway. And tonight, in a bizarre twist, cops are honing in on suspect number one, a 10-year-old little boy.

We are taking your calls. Out to Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session." Jean, what happened?

JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": Well, prosecutors have charged this 10- year-old with murder and felony assault. And here it is. A 10-year-old little boy took a knife, got a knife, and stabbed to death his best buddy allegedly in the driveway of his own home.

GRACE: You know, to Lynda Martin, morning news anchor, KOGO. Lynda, thanks for being with us, joining us from San Diego. I`ve prosecuted myself juveniles for murder and I have put them away.

But that is when they were being treated as adults. They were juveniles anywhere from the 14 to 15-year-old range. A 10-year-old? I find it very, very difficult to imagine a 10-year-old responsible for premeditated murder. I`m just trying to take it in. What are the facts, Lynda?

LYNDA MARTIN, KOGO AM/FM RADIO (via telephone): Well, good evening, Nancy. You know, it is so hard to believe. This 12-year-old, as you`ve been talking about, Ryan Carter, was stabbed to death on Monday by a 10- year-old friend in the driveway of the suspect`s home.

And the mom was apparently at home at the time of the stabbing, the suspect`s mom. But it`s not clear if she was inside or outside when it happened. And police are still not clear about what may have provoked or led up to the stabbing. But family and friends say that Ryan was not an intended victim but was fatally stabbed after stepping in between his 10- year-old friend and someone else. Now, Ryan`s father, named Glen (ph), said that he had been told his son was trying to stop a fight. And neighbors say the boys had been playing a game with some toy swords before the stabbing.

GRACE: Now, wait a minute. Jean Casarez, this was a toy -- the murder weapon was a toy sword?

CASAREZ: No, and I think that`s the pivotal fact, Nancy, what you`ve got right there.

GRACE: Yes.

CASAREZ: They were playing, allegedly -- this is what reports are saying -- with toy swords. But all of a sudden, that changed and out came a knife, a knife that can be used to kill, and that is what stabbed to death this 12-year-old little boy.

GRACE: Uh-oh. Uh-oh, Jean Casarez!

CASAREZ: Yes.

GRACE: That`s changing the entire...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: ... the scenario because if they were playing with something, and the little boy -- the 10-year-old defendant, now a murder defendant, was playing with an object and he stabbed the 12-year-old honor roll kid, that`s a whole different scenario than going and getting a knife and coming back out and stabbing someone.

On the other hand, Lynda Martin is reporting that somehow, there was a tiff going on between some other little kid? What happened, Jean? I still don`t get the scenario.

CASAREZ: It looks like there was an argument. There were three kids, it sounds like. And the little boy that is deceased, Ryan Carter, 12 years old -- this other little boy didn`t like him and was calling him a liar and just a lot of terrible things. And so the defendant may have gotten in to try to protect his friend or to stab the other guy, little guy that was talking against Ryan. But it all went very wrong when Ryan stepped in front to try to break it all up and got stabbed himself.

GRACE: Tonight, we are live in San Diego. A quiet suburb`s reeling when a 10-year-old little boy is charged with murder, the murder of a 12- year-old friend, apparently with a kitchen knife, a stabbing death to the heart.

Unleash the lawyers. Senior attorney, National District Attorneys Association, death penalty-qualified, Eleanor Odom, Alex Sanchez, defense attorney, New York, Peter Odom, defense attorney, Atlanta.

You know, Eleanor Odom, in most jurisdictions, with a crime like this, the child will be bound over and treated as an adult. But what I want to ask you about first is this theory of transferred intent, that the defendant, the 10-year-old little defendant, meant to stab somebody else? That`s not a defense.

ELEANOR ODOM, NATIONAL DISTRICT ATTORNEYS ASSOC.: No, Nancy, because the intent was transferred to the person that he actually stabbed. And you know what? He can`t be tried as an adult in California. You have to be 14 years old in order for the case to be tried as an adult. So he will be tried as a juvenile.

GRACE: Peter Odom, in this particular case, if it had been with a toy sword -- and you`ve seen my children. After they saw "Peter Pan," they got toy swords, all right? We don`t say G-U-N in the house, but they do have toy swords. Now, if this had someone happened with a toy sword, I think it would be more understandable. But somehow, a kitchen knife, a butcher knife got into the scenario.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, you cannot lose the fact that this -- the line between make-believe and reality might have gotten blurred in this case. And that`s the problem with charging someone so young, of such a tender age, as you brought out in the beginning of the show. He might not have had any idea what he was doing, even if he did go back to get a real knife.

GRACE: Sanchez?

PETER ODOM: He`s just so young.

ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think the heart of this case is going to be this kid`s psychiatric condition at the time this event occurred, if, in fact, he did it because we know that this kid had been treated for a psychiatric condition for not being able to control his impulses, had been given medication for that.

And as a matter of fact, he had been given new medication only three weeks ago. And I`m wondering whether or not that medication actually enhanced his impulse lack of control problems.

GRACE: Well, you know, Alex...

SANCHEZ: So that`s going to be the heart of the defense.

GRACE: ... as a matter of fact. Sometimes, with these anti- depressants and other medications, agitation and anger can be a side effect, Alex. And I know the three of you have never heard me talk like this before, but I`m just having a really hard time believing -- and I know what is necessary for a murder one charge.

SANCHEZ: Yes, and...

GRACE: It`s very hard for me to take in a 10-year-old boy, and this is his friend, being charged with murder one. But that is the state of what is happening right now.

OK, Eleanor, you and I have both prosecuted juveniles and put them behind bars for murder. But a 10-year-old, Eleanor?

ELEANOR ODOM: Well, Nancy, yes. And let`s look at it this way. In fact, I`ve tried a 12-year-old in juvenile court for murder. But you`ve got to look at the intent.

GRACE: Well, I`m not bragging, but I tried a 13-year-old for murder. But it was a whole different scenario. In that case, the 13-year-old, who I might add stood about 6-1 -- 6-1, 6-2 -- jumped over a display of dope (ph) ropes, gold chains, grabbed a handful of dope ropes, and then opened fire, left one guy paralyzed and another dead. That was my 13-year-old that got sent to prison.

Yours was a 12-year-old. But your 12-year-old murderer had a different scenario than this 10-year-old.

ELEANOR ODOM: Well, yes, but again, it`s a question of anger. And look how quickly this 10-year-old lost his temper, used a knife, Nancy, a knife he had to get from somewhere. He had a real knife on him. How many times did he stab the victim? You`ve got to look at all that intent and his anger issues, which were previously known. He`s had some other prior - - what we call prior bad acts of acting out aggressively.

GRACE: Oh, good lord in heaven, Eleanor! Bad acts...

ELEANOR ODOM: Nancy, those are the facts!

GRACE: ... by a 10-year-old? What, he stole a cookie out of the cookie jar? What`s the bad act?

ELEANOR ODOM: No, he was aggressive to a friend of his on the trampoline.

GRACE: Oh!

ELEANOR ODOM: When the friend got too close to him...

GRACE: Aggressive on the trampoline!

ELEANOR ODOM: ... he smacked him around -- that`s right. It`s a prior bad act. He`s got an anger issue, and the only way you`re going to...

GRACE: A bad act on a trampoline?

ELEANOR ODOM: ... (INAUDIBLE) is to prosecute him.

GRACE: By a 10-year-old?

ELEANOR ODOM: Yes.

GRACE: What`s the bad act? What, he pushed him down and made him bounce?

ELEANOR ODOM: No...

GRACE: What?

ELEANOR ODOM: I think he was much more aggressive than that...

GRACE: What?

ELEANOR ODOM: ... and that was the problem, Nancy, his aggression in this case.

GRACE: Put her up! Eleanor, a 10-year-old got aggressive on the trampoline, and that`s the bad act? You`ve got to give me more than that before I`m going to put a 10-year-old in jail!

ELEANOR ODOM: Well, it`s the force that he used on that trampoline when he was attacking the other child. It`s more than just a little push, Nancy. You`ve got to look at what he`s doing, at that aggression...

GRACE: I`m looking!

ELEANOR ODOM: ... as I keep saying. It is what it is. And look what`s happened now!

GRACE: OK...

ELEANOR ODOM: He has stabbed and killed someone!

GRACE: I got one thing to say, Peter Odom -- John David, my son. I just -- he`s 4 going on 5. All children get angry. That`s why I have everything baby-proofed. They can`t get to a kitchen knife, even if they knew what one was! You know, in our house, we don`t even say G-U-N. It just -- I can`t take in putting a 10-year-old behind bars. And this was his friend. Maybe I don`t understand the facts.

Ellie Jostad, explain.

ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: ... Nancy, there was this fight going on. And to go to Eleanor`s point, what neighbors and people who know both of these kids are saying happened is they`re saying that the suspect would have these violent outbursts, where something small would provoke him, like the trampoline incident. And he would respond by punching somebody in the face. I think that`s what they`re talking about here, that he threw tantrums and that he was actually trying to get some kind of treatment for it.

GRACE: OK, so he punched someone in the face on the trampoline?

JOSTAD: That`s right, according to the kid who was punched, yes.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Donna in North Carolina. Hi, Donna. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thanks for taking up for everybody, for victims. This is terrible. I`m a grandmother raising a grandchild. And boys do fight. But you know, where were the parents, I mean, when this was going on and...

GRACE: Good question. And you`re right, Donna. Don`t let Donna go. Donna, you`re right. Children fight. John David and Lucy, one minute they`re hugging and kissing, the next minute, I`m having to tear them apart. Children fight. You have to be with them all the time.

I mean, when I have to go somewhere, I`ve got to have a blood relative plus two baby-sitters there before I can even walk out the door. But not everybody is that lucky to have people to watch their children at all times.

Jean Casarez, where were Mommy and Daddy during all this?

CASAREZ: Mom was...

GRACE: And how the heck did somebody get a kitchen knife, Jean?

CASAREZ: Mommy was in the home. This is very sad, Nancy. This little boy -- and we`re talking about the 10-year-old defendant -- had been adopted out of a troubled home. His mother allegedly had been into drugs. The mother that adopted him is a teacher of special needs children, and she lived, raised him with her own father.

GRACE: And Jean Casarez, didn`t the mother of the 12-year-old murder victim state that she had tried 10 years to conceive?

CASAREZ: That`s right. And that was her only son, Ryan Carter, now dead.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stabbing death of 12-year-old honor student Ryan Carter.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His dad affectionately called him "the peacemaker."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Candles burn in his memory.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ryan knew his killer well.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re all destroyed from this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sheriff`s deputies responded to a report of a stabbing at a home in Lakeside.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Neighbors say a 10-year-old boy who lives here grabbed a kitchen knife.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Detectives would not reveal more details about the weapon.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A 12-year-old boy is stabbed to death in a driveway.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ryan Carter.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His dad affectionately called him "the peacemaker."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A 10-year-old boy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Believed to be responsible for this stabbing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it was just a really big accident.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That boy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lived in this house, next to the mobile home community where Ryan lived.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ryan knew his killer well. They played together, had sleepovers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The 10-year-old boy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Prosecuted for murder.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ryan`s dad spoke to me off camera, saying he never felt Ryan was in danger playing with the boy, even though it was well known by neighbors that the boy had a chemical imbalance that caused anger management issues.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls. A 10-year-old boy now charged with murder. In the last hours, in court, in an orange prison jumpsuit, fidgeting in court, charged with the stabbing death, one stab to the heart, of his 12-year-old best friend. Apparently, the 12-year-old`s mom had done everything she could, even moved to get her son into a safe community, including spending everything she had on a private Christian school. Her 12-year-old boy took her 10 years to conceive. Her only son is now dead, his 10-year-old best friend behind bars, a 10-year-old boy.

Back to Donna in North Carolina. Donna, so now we know where the mother was. What was your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know, I would like to know what kind of medication that he was on. And I`d like to know if it was a psychiatrist or a regular MD. I think giving these children these powerful anti- depressants, you know, should be monitored. It`s also scary.

My heart goes out to the mother that has lost the child, but also the child that killed his friend. I mean, this will damage him for the rest of his life. It`s all just heart-breaking.

GRACE: It is, Donna. And I`m interested in those meds, too. To Lynda Martin, morning news anchor, KOGO. Lynda, what was the prescription, do we know, for the 10-year-old little boy? He was angry, agitated, had punched someone in the -- another child in the face. I mean, I pooh-poohed it when Eleanor Odom first brought it up as a trampoline incident, but punching another child in the face is a little extreme.

MARTIN: Well, Nancy, what`s interesting is that what neighbors are saying -- they don`t know the type -- or are not revealing the type of medication, but said that he had changed it in the last two to three weeks and that he had actually seemed calmer since he was put on the new meds. And another neighbor said they saw the little boy shortly before the stabbing and said he didn`t seem upset and was just walking along, kicking rocks.

GRACE: To Dr. Michelle Dupre, medical examiner, forensic pathologist joining us out of South Carolina. Dr. Dupre, thank you for being with us. On those -- with those meds, can they have the reverse effects and cause a child or an adult even to be more agitated?

DR. MICHELLE DUPRE, MED. EXAMINER/FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST (via telephone): Not normally, Nancy, but it depends on what the actual medication is. And of course, it depends on the specific diagnosis, as well. It sounds like this child probably has something called an intermittent explosive disorder, which is exactly what we`re talking about. It sort of randomly comes up that he has these acts of aggression that he can`t control.

GRACE: To Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, author of "Dealbreakers," joining us tonight out of LA. Bethany, can you make some sense out of it?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Yes, intermittent explosive disorder is associated with excessive testosterone, mood instability, irritability, a history of violence. It`s usually found in teenage boys.

But what I think is important -- that is a wastebasket category. What it means is that that disorder covers a lot of territory. You could be anti-social and have intermittent explosive disorder. You could be bipolar.

What is going to answer a lot of questions is the medication. Let`s say he had bipolar illness and a doctor put him on an anti-depressant, and that flipped him into a manic episode, and that increased his vulnerability towards violence. That would be a really important question.

GRACE: With us is child anger management expert, author of "The Real Purpose of Parenting," Philip Dembo joining us tonight. Philip, weigh in on this.

PHILIP DEMBO, CHILD ANGER MANAGEMENT EXPERT: Well, you know, what -- everyone`s saying hypotheticals here. I think there`s a bigger issue and I think -- you know, let`s face it, everybody. If this child had not died, we would not be having this conversation. This kinds of acts of violence (INAUDIBLE) aggression are happening everywhere around our country all day long.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A 10-year-old boy suspected of stabbing a 12- year-old playmate to death.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ryan Carter was breaking up a fight when he was stabbed.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A seemingly senseless act.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We keep on expecting Ryan to come running around the corner with that impish little grin of his.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shocking, disturbing, horrific.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A seemingly senseless act.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Neighbors say it happened in this driveway.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The stabbing death of 12-year-old honor student Ryan Carter.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A 10-year-old boy...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The alleged suspect just 10 years old.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Grabbed a kitchen knife.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He snapped. He did it. It was over with.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The crime was committed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls. Tonight, a 10-year-old little boy behind bars for the unusual stabbing death of his 12-year-old friend, an honor role student.

Jean Casarez, I want to go back to the mother of the 12-year-old victim. She had tried for 10 years to conceive. It`s my understanding that she was sacrificing everything to give her little boy a better life, spending every dime she had on a private Christian school, and now this?

CASAREZ: And they had even downgraded their home. They had sold their home to move into this area, which wasn`t as good as where they came from, to give that money to their son for his Christian education. And then this happened.

And by the way, Nancy, they were best buddies. The victim had just spent the last two nights during the Martin Luther King weekend with now the defendant charged with murder.

GRACE: Out to the lines. To Wanda in Virginia. Hi, Wanda. What`s your question.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Yolanda. Hi. Sorry. It`s Yolanda. Hi, Yolanda, what`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s OK. Basically, it was if he was on meds or not. That was one question that I had, which I see that he was now on medication. And that`s very...

GRACE: Yes, on meds.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... very, very sad that this had to take place and happen. I guess it`s about doctors trying to do their best sometimes and maybe prescribing the wrong medication. It`s sort of a situation that either way we look at it, it`s sort of no justice for it. We can`t say to do away with this kid, who probably maybe actually could not help what he was doing.

This was obviously his friend, somebody he cared about, maybe his only true playmate. And for him to live the rest of his life knowing that he made that kind of boo-boo, that murdered his best friend, it`s really sad for both of them. And the mother, you know, that put so much into having a child in the first place, to see her child die at such a young age. It`s very, very sad.

GRACE: Yolanda, I`m screaming the same thing. But I would consider this more than just a boo-boo. That`s where you and I differ.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, yes, it is much larger. I just -- I just used the term, but...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Back to you, Eleanor Odom. You keep talking about some 12- year-old you put behind bars. What was the scenario there, and how would that apply to this?

ELEANOR ODOM: Well, I mean, the age.

GRACE: OK.

ELEANOR ODOM: First of all, it`s both handled in juvenile court...

GRACE: Yes, but what were the facts there?

ELEANOR ODOM: It was a homicide of a baby, actually, that he killed. So it was a little bit different facts. But again, handled in juvenile court. And those standards are the same. That`s how we can get juveniles help as well as punishment.

GRACE: Well, this juvenile was in an orange prison jumpsuit in the last hours, fidgeting in front of a judge, a 10-year-old little boy charged in the stabbing death, one stab wound to the heart of his 12-year-old best friend.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A 10-year-old boy suspected of stabbing a 12- year-old playmate to death.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The suspect in custody.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He flipped, he did it, it was over with.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: He`s a 10-year-old boy.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Ryan Carter excelled at math and science and solving problems.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We keep on expecting Ryan to come running around the corner with that impish little grin of his.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: This fun-loving 12-year-old was breaking up a fight. But he was stabbed once in the heart and died. His dad affectionately called him the peacemaker.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now they can be prosecuted for murder if it can be shown that the 10-year-old knew the difference between right and wrong at the time that the crime was committed.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The neighbor said he had anger issues and was getting counseling and medication to control it.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Both boys were part of a larger group of seven to eight boys who played together every single day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls. A community reeling. A 10-year-old is behind bars for the alleged murder of his 12-year-old best friend. One stab wound to the heart.

To Dr. Michelle Dupree, one stab wound to the heart. How quickly would the 12-year-old have died?

MICHELLE DUPREE, M.D., MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST (via phone): Well, Nancy, that actually kind of depends on, you know, the amount of injury that was done. But certainly any injury to the heart is significant. It could be a few seconds up to a minute or so.

GRACE: To Lisa Lockwood, former police detective, author of "Undercover Angel." Weigh-in, Lisa.

LISA LOCKWOOD, FORMER POLICE DETECTIVE, AUTHOR OF "UNDERCOVER ANGEL": This whole thing is completely horrific. But what it comes down to is murder is murder. And it`s up to the defense to decide if they`re going to use insanity. This kid needs to be treated no question about it.

GRACE: Well, treated is not necessarily what`s going to happen in juvy jail. We may all idealistically think that`s what`s happening in juvy jail. But the lawyers can all attest, whether you`re for it or against it, Alex Sanchez, I don`t think there`s one state in the union that has real treatment in juvy jail.

I mean all the juveniles I`ve prosecuted, I wanted to send a lot of them to some form of rehab. But the bottom line is, while those laws are on the books, state assemblies, state legislators and the feds have not funded it. There`s no money there. There`s no treatment for this child. That`s not going to happen.

He`s going to get thrown in a juvy jail, walked away for the maximum, whatever that might be, it could be five years, it could be 18 months. But he`s not getting treatment. That`s not going to happen in juvy jail.

ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It`s very egregious, exactly what you just stated. Because you would think if a child is sentenced to some prison time in jail, you know, he`s going to be required to, you know, see a psychiatrist, get medication, seek counseling. But this costs money. And legislators around the country, they`re trying to cut, and where are they going to cut?

They`re going to cut at the easiest spot. They`re going to say, we don`t want to spend money on kid criminals. We`ll spend money somewhere else. These kids get out of jail and they commit crimes some more after that.

GRACE: Out to the line. Terry in Florida. Hi, Terry. What`s your question?

TERRY, CALLER FROM FLORIDA: Hi, Nancy. I guess the question for the psychiatrist or doctor. Is a kid this young capable of understanding what`s going on?

GRACE: Well, the requirement under the law, Terry in Florida, is very simply that you know right from wrong at the time of the incident. All right. That`s all that`s required under the law. Now you are speaking in a humanitarian sense. Did this child, the 10-year-old, understand the nature and the consequences of his act?

To Bethany Marshall psychoanalyst in L.A., what about it, Bethany?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Terry, the age of seven is about the time children really begin to understand right from wrong. But what could have happened to this child, let`s say he was bipolar, the doctor puts him on a mood stabilizer, he gets better.

What I see in clinical practice is sometimes when people get better, their underlying true personalities come out. So if he`s lived his childhood being agitated, in poor concentration and racing thoughts, he gets on a medication, he`s a normal human being. Now he has to learn how to handle his emotions and feelings of jealousy and rage in a normal way.

GRACE: OK, you know, Bethany --

MARSHALL: And sometimes --

GRACE: That was just beautiful, whatever it was you just said. Bottom line, did he know what he was doing?

MARSHALL: I think he knew what he was doing, I really do.

GRACE: OK, Pat Brown, criminal profiler, author of "The Profiler," weigh-in.

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER, AUTHOR OF "THE PROFILER": I agree he knew what he was doing. Take a look at a little child who is 7 or 8 years old, and they get a little turtle. They know darn well if they pick up a rock and smash it on that turtle they get a flat dead turtle. I mean I don`t think anybody things their child would not know that.

This little boy knew what he was doing. I think the problem is we minimize a lot of their behavior as young. I`m going to guess yes, attachment disorder from, you know, coming out of the adoption, and you know, with the parenting he had before he got adopted. And problem suffers from some kind of anti-social personality disorder.

But what happens is, we hate to say that to a child -- you know, a child is only 5 years old, we hate to say that`s what his problem is. So we keep trying to kind of excuse his behavior or try to deal with it. What we should be doing is watching him extraordinarily carefully. The parents next door who let their child go play, knew this boy was violent, probably shouldn`t have allowed him over there nor should I hail the mother if this child was violent.

But we should help the child if we can do it, but we should not minimize what the child is doing.

GRACE: To Jean Casarez, for those just joining us in this scenario. A 10-year-old boy in the last hours is in an orange prison jumpsuit answering up on murder one charges. What more do we know, Jean?

JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": We know that he said before the judge, not true. When asked if he murdered his very good friend. But prosecutors say it all happened on the drive way, and what happened was that there was an altercation. They were playing with toy swords and all of a sudden instead of a toy sword he had a knife. And this young 10-year-old defend stabbed his very best buddy and he died an hour later.

GRACE: But Jean, what about breaking in in the middle of a fight with another child? How did the third child get in the mix?

CASAREZ: There was a fight it looks like between the defendant and another child. And Ryan Carter, now dead, 12 years old, stepped in the center to say, no, don`t do it, don`t do this. And then he was stabbed to death. Transferred intent.

GRACE: To Lynda Martin, "Morning News" anchor, KOGO, joining us out of San Diego where this went down.

Lynda, how will he be treated in juvy jail? Is there any real treatment for him?

LYNDA MARTIN, MORNING NEWS ANCHOR, KOGO AM/FM RADIO: What we`re hearing out of this hearing today, that there was a request for psychological evaluation which isn`t unusual. And then without getting into specifics the deputy DA said that the maximum sentence with all the charges would be until he reaches 25, and then they would lose jurisdiction.

But here`s what you were asking. Bart (ph) said that in this juvenile hall, the suspect will be heavily monitored, but he`ll be in a safe environment and he will get schooling.

GRACE: OK, wait a minute. He`ll be behind bars until he`s how old?

MARTIN: Well, they were saying that -- in the maximum sentence, if he is sentenced, then he will be in custody until he reaches 25.

GRACE: You know, that`s 15 years. Fifteen years.

Unleash the lawyers, Eleanor Odom, Peter Odom, Alex Sanchez.

You know, Peter Odom, here`s my take on it. If it`s something that you don`t feel right about, the sentence, then it`s wrong. I don`t mean something that you hate, like when I prosecuted a 13-year-old who turned 14 during the trial, when I prosecuted for him -- when I prosecuted him for murder, I hated it. I hated I had no other recourse but to prosecute him for murder, but it was a murder.

In this case, sending this 10-year-old to jail on murder is -- it`s not that I hate it, it feels wrong.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I`ve been involved with the criminal justice system for 21 years, both as a prosecutor now as a defense attorney. I`ve prosecuted juveniles, I`ve defended them. There are two things that we don`t do well, kids and the mentally ill. This case brings both of those problems into the sharper leaf. And it`s tragic.

GRACE: Eleanor, you are confident that you would send him to jail?

ELEANOR ODOM, FELONY PROSECUTOR, DEATH PENALTY QUALIFIED: I am confident, Nancy. Now I didn`t say I`d send him for 15 years. That`s ultimately up to the judge.

GRACE: But that`s a yes-no question. Just tell me.

E. ODOM: But as a prosecutor, I have no problem going forward on this.

GRACE: Sanchez?

SANCHEZ: Look, the primary issue in this cases, Nancy, is whether or not this kid acted outside of his control --

GRACE: That`s not the question.

SANCHEZ: -- or within his control.

GRACE: Could you as a prosecutor send this kid to jail?

SANCHEZ: Yes, I mean he could conceivably go to jail for 15 years.

GRACE: Yes, I didn`t ask you that.

SANCHEZ: It would egregious because that`s what --

GRACE: I asked you would you send --

SANCHEZ: -- convicted murderers get sentenced to, adults.

GRACE: OK, you know what, Eleanor, I`m always on your side, but this time, sending this kid to jail for a possible 15 years, I just don`t see it.

Everyone, the family album back, showcasing your photos from the iReport.

Tonight Texas friends, the Schmidt family, mom Leslie, son Ryan, raising awareness for a cure for muscular dystrophy. Ryan, an inspiration, also known as rap artist Wheels, releasing his first rap album "In the Beginning," for Parent Project Muscular Dystrophy.

Share your family photos through our "iReport Family Album." Go to hlnTV.com/Nancygrace and click on "Nancy`s Family Album."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Shocking, disturbing, horrific.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: This fun-loving 12-year-old was breaking up a fight when he was stabbed once in the heart and died.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s a little boy that committed an awful act.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: That`s right. The alleged suspect just 10 years old.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: These types of crimes are extremely rare. He`s officially being detained for a homicide.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Prosecuted for murder.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Neighbors said he had anger issues.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just changed his medication about two or three weeks ago.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A 10-year-old now being held in juvenile hall.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The justice system will be dealing with the alleged juvenile murder suspect.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Neighbors don`t blame the child. When accused of killing Ryan, Lisa Carter said, please don`t make it out that he was this terrible human being, he`s not some monster.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It had to have been, he snapped, he did it, it was over with. You know, it had to have been that. There`s a lot of destroyed people in this trailer park beyond the family. Not as much as the family`s, but we`re destroyed from this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your call. A 12-year-old little boy dead, an honor roll student, at the hands of his 10-year-old friend.

Out to Clifford in North Carolina. Hi, Clifford, what`s your question?

CLIFFORD, CALLER FROM NORTH CAROLINA: How are doing, Nancy?

GRACE: I`m good.

CLIFFORD: I`m like -- I mean my heart goes out to each and every family in this situation. I just do not understand how there could be a group of kids out playing. And where are the parents in this situation? I mean, I`m a father of three, and I keep my eye on my children each time they go outside. Especially with all the kidnappings and you know, just neighborhood disturbances.

How are the parents not involved in what`s going on? Why is the 12- year-old breaking up a fight in the first place?

GRACE: Hey, Clifford. How old are your children?

CLIFFORD: My children are 3, 2, and I have a 6-month-old right now.

GRACE: I`m the same way, I`m a nervous wreck. If they go outside, I`m with them. I`m just so afraid after all the news stories that we cover in this case, everybody here is weighing in. I`ve got a mother of a 12- year-old boy here that says the 10-year-old knew exactly what he was doing. Then you`ve got the added ingredient that he`s on some kind of anti- depressant or anti-anger medication.

To Philip Dembo, what about the anti-anger medication? Could it have had the reverse effect or some type of side effect, Philip?

PHILIP DEMBO, CHILD ANGER MANAGEMENT EXPERT, AUTHOR OF "THE REAL PURPOSE OF PARENTING": You know, possibly, but I don`t think so. I think what we`re not talking about is that this kid has not learned how to deal with his impulsivity. I think Peter Odom said it well, this is not a motive for murder, this is a kid who`s community, family, everybody, tolerated his impulsive, aggressive action.

That`s what we should be talking about. And frankly, if he goes away for 15 years and doesn`t get any help on that, now we have a 25-year-old walking around the streets with the same impulses --

GRACE: The same problem.

DEMBO: -- behavior. Absolutely.

GRACE: You know what, Philip, you`re right. And I got to tell you, when I put John David or Lucy in time-out, it -- when they cry, I want to cry. I don`t want to put them in time-out, I don`t want to punish them. But on the other hand I don`t want them to grow up and believe that anything they do is OK. Because it`s not OK.

And I`m also not saying, Lynda Martin, KOGO, that the mom of the 10- year-old didn`t try to discipline her child. She obviously had taken him to doctors to get help.

But everyone, according to our e-mails our texts and our phone calls that we`re getting in, believes a 10-year-old is responsible for their acts. I`m just having a hard time imagining a 10-year-old behind bars for murder.

MARTIN: Well, what keeps coming up, Nancy, about people that were at the scene and neighbors especially, they say, you know, that they just can`t fathom the boy`s violent act. They knew that he had these problems and that when he was angry, if provoked, that he would kind of explode. But they never knew that it would come to this.

And one neighbor said, I`m pretty sure he thought it was like a cartoon, you stab him, he comes back to life.

GRACE: What about that, Bethany Marshall?

MARSHALL: Well, I think Pat Brown made the most important point. This boy was given up for adoption. He may have had reactive attachment disorder, that`s where you do not attach to others. And that could have been an environment where he was anti-social or sociopath, and he was like a budding problem in the making.

We do not want to think of our children as sociopaths or having anti- social personality disorder. But sometimes they do. Sometimes they do. And that maybe for this kid, it just happened earlier in his life rather than in later.

But you made a good point about jail. When he comes out of prison, he`s going to be worse off than when he went in. And that`s where he`s really going to need the monitoring.

GRACE: You know, Jean --

MARSHALL: And the screening.

GRACE: You know, Jean Casarez, joining us from "In Session." I recall -- I guess he was a 15-year-old at the time. He was part of a group, and a triple homicide. And he got the lightest sentence of all of the group, but I remember the moment he got out, he committed an armed robbery and a murder. The moment he got out.

And when I saw him, when he came back to my courtroom where I was the assistant district attorney, he looked like a caged animal. He was just pacing back and forth and back and forth. That is what had happened to him, and he had only been in jail -- he had not been in jail for a very long time at all, as a juvenile.

And I think what Dembo said, what Marshall are saying is correct, if this kid goes behind bars as a 10-year-old, goes behind bars for an extended time, he`s going to come out like a caged tiger, with the same problems he had when he went in.

CASAREZ: So the answer is to reform --

GRACE: Yes, what is the answer?

CASAREZ: The reform of the juvenile system. That`s the answer because --

GRACE: Yes, well, that`s not going to happen in time for this kid.

CASAREZ: But, Nancy, all these prior bad acts, where he got upset so he punched somebody in the eye. He got upset so he punched somebody else. He got upset because he spilled his water, so he got aggressive. This -- if he had just aggression, hit with the toy sword. The toy sword was laid down and a knife was gotten from somewhere into his hand.

This case is differentiated from all the prior bad acts.

GRACE: You know what, you`re right. Because there was the time delay of him getting the knife.

CASAREZ: Right.

GRACE: The toy sword wasn`t pulled or drawn anymore. I agree with you about reform. I`ve been yelling that since I saw the state of the justice system, you know, back in the `80s and `90s. But what about this kid, what about this 10-year-old? I`m all happy about reforming the system. But what about this boy? What can happen with him in that jurisdiction, Jean?

CASAREZ: Well, he can be let out at 18. So at 18 he could go and commit a very similar offense. At 18 he could go into the adult prison system until he`s just 25. And juveniles will have authority over him because it`s a juvenile case so he`s out at 25. There appears to be no answer, Nancy, except reforming the system.

GRACE: Well, what about this, Ellie Jostad? Say that that`s on a murder conviction, he could be in until 18 and then go to adult jail until 25, but what if it`s not a murder conviction, what if it`s a plea to a lesser offense?

ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE CHIEF EDITORIAL PRODUCER: Right.

GRACE: Where he is in juvenile for a much shorter period of time, and then under very stringent supervision and treatment outside of the jail house? What about that?

JOSTAD: Well, exactly, and that could happen, Nancy, that 10 years in jail until he`s 25, that`s the worst case max penalty scenario for this kid. He is going to get a psychiatric evaluation. That could raise other issues. It`s really unclear right now what is going to happen to him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nothing like this. I never would have expected this to happen.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Smiling face of 12-year-old Ryan Carter.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: He was a straight A student. His dad affectionately called him "the peacemaker".

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The candles burned in his memory.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Ryan knew his killer well. They played together, had sleepovers.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The 10-year-old stabs the victim to death with a kitchen knife.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can bet that it`s going to involve psychologists, psychiatrists, all kinds of individuals are going to be involved in this.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The suspect was being treated for issues relating to anger and was on medication.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: They are looking deeper into some of the mental issues the young man had been treated for.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls. A 12-year-old tonight in custody behind bars for the stabbing death of his 12-year-old best friend. One stab to the heart. The 12-year-old`s mom had tried 10 years to conceive. This was her only son. They had moved, downsized their home in order to pay the tuition at a private Christian school to give the 12-year-old a better chance at life.

Lacey in Texas, what`s your question?

LACEY, CALLER FROM TEXAS: Ten years old, why should a 10-year-old go to prison for --

GRACE: OK, you know, Pat Brown, why should a 10-year-old go to prison?

BROWN: Well, I would look at it -- well, look at it this way. If this were your son and you said, go do your homework, son, and instead of leaving the room, he went and got a knife from the kitchen, he came and stabbed you in the chest, you would think, he probably had blown up by that time and the child was seriously psychopathic, and he wasn`t going to be able to be helped.

GRACE: Let`s stop and remember, Navy Quarter Master 2nd Class, James Suh, 28, Deerfield Beach, Florida, killed Afghanistan. Awarded Bronze Star, Purple Heart. University of Florida grad. Fulfilled his dream of becoming a Navy SEAL. Loved fishing and training dogs, time with his 11 cousins and friends. Remembered for his smile. Changed his middle name to Eric to honor his childhood friend who died in an accident. Leaves behind father Solomon, sister Claudia.

James Suh, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us.

And happy birthday to California friend, Josh. Loves books, music, jalapenos. His beautiful family, including nieces Bethany and Ella. Over 10 years ago, we shared the same little hall in a tall apartment building in New York and met over his Jack Russell Remington.

Happy birthday, Josh.

Thank you to Georgia friends, Mr. and Miss Earl Pace for the yummy cheese straws you sent for the twins.

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END