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NANCY GRACE

Texas Woman Charged With Murder After Changing Story Twice

Aired January 17, 2012 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, upscale Texas suburbs. Police race to the scene after a hysterical 911 call, 4:40 AM. What`s inside the huge Tudor $4.5 million home? Cops find Daddy shot dead in his own bed after an armed intruder dressed in all black breaks in, beats Mommy in the face with a wrench and opens fire on Daddy. All the while, their 4-year-old little girl asleep on the family sofa nearby.

Bombshell tonight. Neighbors` grainy video surveillance reveals no such intruder, no prints on the murder weapon, and neither robbery nor sex attack as motive. But now Mommy changes the story, revealing there was no intruder, no beating, no late-night attack, that, in fact, it was her own husband who pulls the trigger on himself. That`s right, she claims he committed suicide. But are the cops buying it?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Somebody was in my house!

911 OPERATOR: Somebody what?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I need an ambulance! Please! (INAUDIBLE)

911 OPERATOR: Ma`am, I can`t understand you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My husband was just shot. He was shot in the head!

911 OPERATOR: Your husband was shot in the head?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I need an ambulance!

911 OPERATOR: We`ve got an ambulance coming to you, as well, OK?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE)

911 OPERATOR: Did this happen in the house (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, it happened in the room, in the bed!

911 OPERATOR: It happened in a bed? Did he do it to himself?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No!

911 OPERATOR: No?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The door is open. My little girl`s on the couch.

911 OPERATOR: Who did it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know. I got hit really hard.

911 OPERATOR: You were hit in the head?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

911 OPERATOR: You don`t know who it was that hit you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.

911 OPERATOR: OK. Do you know what they looked like, if they were male or female?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, we go live. A baby girl found abandoned on a neighborhood doorstep, left to die. Tonight, who left a baby girl behind on a doorstep in freezing temps?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was no more than 25 degrees outside when the baby no more than a few weeks old...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A newborn matted -- the hair matted to the skull.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was left abandoned on this stoop just inside this white picket fence.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No (INAUDIBLE) on, no clothes, no onesies, nothing at all.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) uncovered the towel.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whoever left her, you should be ashamed of yourself.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was freezing. My buddy was apparently shaken up. He said, Man, I just found a newborn baby, a little newborn, a little girl. I mean, that`s crazy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A neighbor banged on my door after finding the child.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They called 911, laid her on the dining room table and began CPR.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You should really be ashamed of yourself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. Police race to the scene after a hysterical 911 call. Cops find Daddy shot to death in his own bed after an armed intruder dressed in all black breaks in, beats Mommy in the face with a wrench and opens fire.

We are taking your calls. Ellie Jostad, when police get there -- this is 4:40 AM -- what do they find?

ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Right. Well, they find the victim, Gregory Williams, lying on his back in bed. He is bleeding from the mouth, nose and one of his ears. He`s got a gunshot wound, just one gunshot wound to his right temple. They say that his right arm was sort of underneath the covers, his left arm dangling off the bed.

His wife tells them, you know, this intruder broke in, hit her on her head. She`s got a small little bruise on her forehead. She said she barely got a look at the guy before he made it out the door.

GRACE: So she says 4:40 AM, a guy dressed in all black breaks in -- police find no forced entry -- comes in. Nothing`s stolen. There`s no sex attack. Why did she change her story to reveal he actually committed suicide, Ellie?

JOSTAD: Well, apparently, police brought in scent dogs. They were checking out this intruder theory, trying to find the scent of an intruder in the home, were unsuccessful at that. We later learned that the neighbor`s surveillance video didn`t show anybody approaching the home.

When they confronted her with that evidence, they say she changed her story, said, Actually, I was asleep in the other room with my daughter. I heard the gunshot. My husband committed suicide. I didn`t want the little girl to find out. I didn`t want the shame of a suicide. So I staged this whole thing to cover.

GRACE: To Domingo Ramirez, Jr., senior reporter with "The Fort Worth Star-Telegram. Domingo, what did we learn? Had the father, had the husband had depression? Had he had prior suicide attempts? Were there money problems so devastating, he thought he was better off dead than alive?

DOMINGO RAMIREZ, JR., "FORT WORTH STAR-TELEGRAM" (via telephone): There was no indication from police that Gregory Williams suffered any of those at all. Everything seemed to be going fine. Police had not even made any calls to that house, like domestic problems or anything like that.

GRACE: Interesting. I want to go back to Ellie Jostad. Ellie, I want to go talk about the evidence at the scene. Daddy was lying in his own bed, correct?

JOSTAD: That`s correct.

GRACE: I assume he was right-handed?

JOSTAD: Yes. According to family, he was right-handed.

GRACE: OK, so yes. What side of the bed was he lying on?

JOSTAD: He`s on the left side of the bed.

GRACE: Right-handed -- and what side -- it was a shot to the head. What side of the head sustained the shot?

JOSTAD: Right temple.

GRACE: Right temple. Important. If he`s on the left side of the bed and he`s shot on the right side of the head -- - was there stippling, was there stippling gunshot burn around the wound?

JOSTAD: Don`t know.

GRACE: Don`t know. OK, unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Holly Hughes, former prosecutor turned defense attorney out of Atlanta, John Manuelian, defense attorney joining us out of L.A.

Holly, before you became a defense attorney, you were a prosecutor of violent crimes. Now, isn`t it true that gunshot residue can be found from a point-blank range, which is basically skin contact, to up to three feet away from the body, but stippling or burning is typically found with a contact wound? Yes?

HOLLY HUGHES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That is true, Nancy.

GRACE: So if there`s stippling, Holly, that would be consistent with a suicide. But what if there`s not stippling, Holly? What if there`s just gunshot residue?

HUGHES: Typically, then, it that the muzzle of the gun is further away than 12 inches. But she`s admitted she wiped his hands. It`s possible she wiped his temple and wiped away the stippling, as well.

GRACE: You know, John Manuelian, the fact that she may have wiped away his hands to cover up a suicide -- granted, he would not have gunshot residue on his hands. But we have no evidence she actually wiped the bloody entrance wound on the side of his head, which means if she didn`t wipe it and this was a suicide, there would be powder burns. That`s a slang term for stippling. Agree or disagree?

JOHN MANUELIAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Agreed.

GRACE: If it`s not a contact wound, Dr. Carter, that is not a typically suicide, is it, Dr. Carter.

DR. JOYE CARTER, CHIEF FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: That`s correct. It is not a typical suicide entrance gunshot wound.

GRACE: Explain.

CARTER: Well, when you have a suicide wound, usually, it`s a contact wound. All the elements in the gunshot are driven into the wound itself. When the gun is held away from the body, the other materials that come out with a gunshot wound embed around the gunshot wound, within up to three feet away from the body. So this is not a typical suicide wound.

GRACE: Exactly. Let`s go to W.W. Tripp, former police commander. Woody, come on, think about it! The logistics of a man lying in bed -- lying in bed, all right -- and I actually had a case where the spouse shot his wife, said it was suicide, in a very upscale area of Atlanta, and when I got to looking at the scene, I found blood spatter under the pillow. That`s physically impossible for her to have been lying on the pillow at the time she shot herself and the blood got under her pillow. Spatter -- not leaking, spatter. Impossible.

In this case, the logistics of shooting yourself in the head 18 inches away -- that is not how a suicide goes down, Tripp.

WOODROW TRIPP, FORMER POLICE COMMANDER: You`re absolutely right, Nancy. And I also had a case where a boyfriend claimed that his girlfriend killed herself. Well, we had two problems with that. One, the close contact gunshot wound was not there, as you would have with a suicide, where you hold that weapon or that barrel directly to your skin.

And secondly, and more importantly, the trajectory of the bullet did not coincide with the story that he relayed. Solved it.

GRACE: Let`s take a listen, Tripp, listen with me to the 911 call. Let`s see what we learn.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

911 OPERATOR: Did it happen in the house?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, it happened in the room, in the bed!

911 OPERATOR: It happened in the bed? Did he do it to himself?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.

911 OPERATOR: No?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The door is open and my little girl is on the couch.

911 OPERATOR: Who did it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know. I got hit really hard. (INAUDIBLE) Somebody was in the house!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michele Williams sounded hysterical in her 911 call to report that an intruder shot her husband.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) he was shot in the head!

JOSTAD: Do you know if they were male or female?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was a male.

911 OPERATOR: It was a male?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

911 OPERATOR: Do you know anybody that would try and get into your house?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.

911 OPERATOR: OK. Did this happen in the house?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, it happened in the room, in the bed!

911 OPERATOR: It happened in the bed? Did he do it to himself?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.

911 OPERATOR: No?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The door is open and my little girl is on the couch.

911 OPERATOR: Who did it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know. I got hit really hard.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I need an ambulance! Please!

911 OPERATOR: Ma`am, I can`t understand you. Can you take a deep breath and tell me what`s going on?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her 911 call to report that an intruder shot Greg Williams in the head.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was shot in the head! Somebody was in the house!

911 OPERATOR: Somebody`s been in the house?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) shot in the head!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Responding officers smelled deception.

911 OPERATOR: Who did it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know. I got hit really hard.

911 OPERATOR: You were hit in the head?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That is very suspicious.

911 OPERATOR: Do you know if it was male or female?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was a male.

911 OPERATOR: It was a male?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The door obviously had not been forced, as Williams claimed.

911 OPERATOR: Do you know anybody that would try and get into your house?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was charged with murder, tampering with evidence, and giving false statements to police.

911 OPERATOR: Did you hear anything?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I heard (INAUDIBLE) got up to check on the baby on the couch! And I got hit on the head!

911 OPERATOR: Do you know what hit you in the head?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know.

911 OPERATOR: Do know if anybody`s still in the house with you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE)

911 OPERATOR: Did they run away?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, they went out the bedroom door.

911 OPERATOR: They went out the bedroom door?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. We are taking your calls. Police race to the scene of a $4.5 million Tudor-style home, three-car garage, pool, the works. This neighborhood`s never even seen a broken window, much less a murder, a suicide or a homicide.

What about this neighborhood, Michael Board? What can you tell me?

MICHAEL BOARD, WOAI (via telephone): Well, it`s a beautiful gated community in one of the most exclusive suburbs in the Dallas area. They did check a neighbor`s security camera when Michele Williams initially made the (INAUDIBLE) that someone had broken into her home. They were trying to figure out how they can find out, try to find suspects.

So what they did was they went to the neighbor`s house, who had a security camera up, and they looked through that security camera. All they found was one person all this time, and it was a newspaper delivery man. So there`s no way somebody could have broken into this home like Michele Williams initially told the police.

GRACE: You know what, Michael Board? You`re right. And I`m just wondering about the sequence of events, Domingo Ramirez -- Domingo joining us from "The Fort Worth Star-Telegram." Did they confront her with that neighbor`s surveillance video before she changed her story to say her husband committed suicide?

RAMIREZ: Well, they used that surveillance and the fact that they had brought a dog in to see if an intruder had been in, and then the dog did not sense an intruder there. So they also used the surveillance camera to say there`s no other vehicle in the area.

GRACE: Joining me right now, special guest Kathy Williams. This is the husband, Gregory Williams`s, ex-wife. Kathy, thank you for being with us. How stunned were you when you discovered Gregory was dead, shot dead in his own bed?

KATHY WILLIAMS, VICTIM`S EX-WIFE (via telephone): We were really stunned. I had to tell our 14-year-old daughter that the night before she had seen him, within 12 hours, he was gone.

GRACE: What did you think of the claim of suicide, Kathy?

WILLIAMS: No. Greg would never, never take his life.

GRACE: Explain.

KATHY: He was too strong of a man. He liked life too much. He liked to have fun. He liked to live life. And he loved his children and he would not do that to his children.

GRACE: Kathy, when you say he loved life too much -- you know, even on days when we are overwhelmed or we think we`re depressed or we think we`ve got the world`s problems on our back, we have our children. When we`re not strong, we have to be strong for them. How many children does Gregory have?

WILLIAMS: Greg has two biological children, and her children are his stepchildren. He has my oldest daughter as a stepchild that he raised since she was 2, and she`s 22 now.

GRACE: Would he ever leave his children behind, Kathy?

WILLIAMS: No, ma`am. We had a family member commit suicide December in 2010. And I`ve seen Greg cry three times in 20 years, and that was one of them. And he told our daughter that -- never to do this and how angry he was at him for the way he did this and how he left things unfinished.

GRACE: Do you know, Kathy, the state of his marital relationship?

WILLIAMS: As far as I knew, there were no problems. We saw them the night before. His wife and his daughter came to our daughter`s choir concert at school. He went over. He was very pleasant. He videotaped her concert. I saw him give her a hug and a kiss good-bye. He walked by us, and you know, my family and I, said, Have a good evening, we`ll talk to you later. And that was the last time I talked with him.

GRACE: You know, he and Michele sure were living high on the hog, a $4.5 million home, three-car garage, the pool, the works.

WILLIAMS: Greg worked very hard for what he had. He worked 12 to 15 hours a day sometimes. He started his business from ground up while we were married.

GRACE: And what was his business, Kathy?

WILLIAMS: IT, computers, networking, all that goes with that.

GRACE: And how did he get hooked up with Michele?

WILLIAMS: To be honest, I don`t know. I think, if I`m not mistaken, he met her on Match.com, but I`m not 100 percent sure.

GRACE: And how long had they been married?

WILLIAMS: They`ve only been married three years. They had the baby a year before they got married.

GRACE: So he comes into a ready-made family. The baby was about 1 year old. And they`ve only been married three years?

WILLIAMS: Yes, ma`am.

GRACE: You know, Kathy, they should still be in the honeymoon phase. Take a listen to the 911 call.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

911 OPERATOR: Where`s your daughter now?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s on the couch. She`s asleep.

911 OPERATOR: She`s asleep on the couch? How old is she?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s 4.

911 OPERATOR: You don`t know who it was that hit you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.

911 OPERATOR: OK. Do you know what they look like, if they were a male or a female?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God!

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My husband was just shot! Somebody was in the house!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michele Williams sounded hysterical in her 911 call to report that an intruder shot her husband.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) he was shot in the head!

911 OPERATOR: Who did it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Responding officers smelled deception.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The night (ph) door is open!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That is very suspicious.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The door obviously had not been forced.

911 OPERATOR: He did it to himself?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Later, Michele Williams changed her story of suicide

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls. At first, she claims an armed intruder dressed in solid black comes into their home, a $4.5 million Tudor-style home, hits her in the head, beats her with a wrench, then opens fire on her husband, killing him in his bed as their 4-year-old little girl lies nearby on the family sofa asleep. But then the story changed, and she reveals it was a suicide.

We are taking your calls. Out to Jason. Hi, Jason. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Nancy. I`ve just got one thing to tell you. God bless you.

GRACE: Thank you. Thank you very much.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re very welcome. I have one quick question.

GRACE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If she staged the murder, was she staging the murder for life insurance?

GRACE: Good question. And we have spoken with Kathy Williams about that. This is Gregory`s ex-wife. Kathy, you believe there is an insurance policy being correct? How much?

WILLIAMS: Well, from what I was told, it was $650,000. But being the ex-wife, I`m not getting a whole lot of information from the attorney or anyone else.

GRACE: What about the funeral, Kathy? How did that go?

WILLIAMS: There was not a funeral, so to speak. We were allowed to have his ashes for about six hours one day so we could hold our family memorial service, and we had nothing but our family there.

GRACE: Why?

WILLIAMS: We do not want to see her. We don`t want to be around her. It would just cause problems.

GRACE: Wa-wa-wa-wa-wa-wait. Wa-wait. Hold on. Hold on. So there was no regular funeral? He was cremated?

WILLIAMS: Yes, ma`am. He was cremated. Through a mutual friend, we were allowed to have his ashes for about six hours so we could (INAUDIBLE) our own memorial. And it was his mother, brother, sister, and all of the family and friends that loved him dearly.

GRACE: Well, who made that decision that you only have six hours with the ashes?

WILLIAMS: She did. Texas law, she has every right to the body, estate, everything.

GRACE: Does that include your daughter that he raised since infancy? She got six hours with the ashes?

WILLIAMS: No. No. She had promised to give my daughter an urn with some ashes in it so she could have something from her father, but that has yet to happen.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

911 OPERATOR: Do you know if they were male or female?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was a male.

911 OPERATOR: It was a male?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

911 OPERATOR: Do you know anybody that would try and get into your house?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Somebody was in my house.

UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Somebody what?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I need an ambulance, please. My husband was just shot. Somebody was in the house.

UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Somebody was in the house?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s bleeding really bad. He was shot in the head.

UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Your husband was shot in the head?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I need an ambulance.

UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: We`ve got an ambulance coming to you as well, OK?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh my god.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST: We are taking your calls. At first she tells cops an intruder, an armed intruder dressed in solid black -- my, that`s theatrical -- breaks into their Tudor-style home, beats her about the face with a wrench, then opens fire on her hubby.

He`s lying in bed asleep, according to her, but then her story changes and she claims he committed suicide rather, than have their 4-year-old daughter find out that he killed himself she stages a murder.

To Kathy Williams -- this is the victim`s ex-wife, Kathy. What was that you were saying, that his wife, Michelle Williams, who -- who admits she staged a murder to cover up the suicide, promised your daughter some of Gregory`s ashes so she could have part of her father but she never delivered? Were those your words?

KATHY WILLIAMS, EX-WIFE OF SLAIN VICTIM, GREGORY WILLIAMS: Yes, ma`am. And she also decided when she was moving her house to send -- to send Taylor all the pictures that were in frames and her yearbooks and then she threw some Christmas presents in there, and sent a heartless note, I hope you like these, Taylor, love, Michele.

GRACE: OK. Are you telling me, Kathy Williams, at the get-go you did not buy the suicide story?

WILLIAMS: No, ma`am. I did not buy it at all. I`ve known Greg since 1993 and he would never, ever do that to himself.

GRACE: What kind of terms were you and Greg on at the time of his death?

WILLIAMS: We were on very good terms. I mean, don`t get me wrong, we have our arguments just like most divorced couples do. You know, we didn`t agree on everything on how to raise Taylor. But our best interest was Taylor.

GRACE: Can I ask you something? Why did you guys get a divorce?

WILLIAMS: We were just going different ways. He was going one way and I was going another, and it just really -- decided it would be better if we would split.

GRACE: Everybody, we are taking your calls. Joining me right now, criminal profiler and author of "The Profiler," Pat Brown, is joining us.

Pat, you know, all this back and forth, blah, blah, blah, that`s one thing. All that is circumstantial evidence. But to me forensics don`t lie. You can believe or disbelief people. They can be convincing. They can be horrible on the stand. But forensics don`t lie and I know this.

Every suicide I have ever observed or studied by gun is the contact wound to the head. This is 18 inches away from the head. To me this is virtually impossible.

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER, AUTHOR OF "THE PROFILER": It would be - - it would pretty strange, Nancy, because you`d have to turn the gun around and kind of do it with your thumb there. And that is not a normal suicide position.

What is very interesting about the whole story, though, is it led the police to that evidence because the story was so stupid because she sucks at staging crimes when you come right down to it. She has this ninja assassin appear in her house for no reason whatsoever. And he`s got a gun in his hand, and he`s going to shot them, the husband --

GRACE: Hey, Pat.

BROWN: -- and he shoots --

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Pat, why do they always dress in black? Why do they always have ninja style assailants dress in black?

BROWN: Because he was so creepy and scary. But you know --

GRACE: It might have been watching too much TV.

BROWN: He hits her over the head with a wrench, instead of shooting her with the gun. He`s going to leave a live witness. It`s ridiculous and doesn`t even hurt her very hard. That`s the first clue that something is fishy.

And the second one is, on that 911 call, usually the first thing you say is the most important. The first thing she said was, there is a stranger in the house. She didn`t say, send an ambulance, my husband has been shot. She was more concerned that the police knew that somebody had been in the house. To say -- you know that`s --

GRACE: You know, you just drove home a point. I recall a wealthy businessman that whacked his wife in the head, set the house on fire. He lounged around in the neighbor`s front yard Romanesque, and spoke to the EMTs for over a minute before he said, yes, my wife is in there. The house was burning down. Oh, yes, my wife`s in there.

That`s a -- that`s a hint and not so subtle.

To Dr. Paula Bloom, clinical psychologist, author of "Why Does He Do That, Why Does She Do That?"

Paula, weigh in on what the ex-wife is telling you about the ashes? That alone waves a red flag in front of my face. Because, you know, I can understand one wife not liking the ex-wife. I get it. But when it comes to the daughter, the 14-year-old daughter, that`s a whole other can of worms right there.

PAULA BLOOM, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST, BLOGGER, PAULABLOOM.COM: Yes. I mean she`s completely into taking care of herself, protecting herself. What was really striking to me is how respectful the ex-wife is talking. That shows a lot about the kind of relationship they had.

GRACE: And the cops aren`t that stupid, Ellie Jostad. Where does the case stand right now?

ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE CHIEF EDITORIAL PRODUCER: Well, right now, Nancy, she has been charged with murder, she has been charged with tampering with or fabricating evidence and she`s been charged with making a false report to a police officer.

GRACE: To Michael Board, WOAI, joining us from Texas.

Michael, even though cops have charged her, she`s been charged, cops didn`t buy this Academy Award-winning performance, she`s out walking free. Explain.

MICHAEL BOARD, REPORTER, WOAI NEWSRADIO: Can you believe this?

GRACE: No.

BOARD: Someone -- got so dead to right she is out on bond right now. Her initial bond is -- just over half a million dollars. Her lawyers -- she got a lawyer, she lawyered up, they went before a judge, they got that half a million dollars down to about $85,000. She is now out on bond. She is wearing one of those GPS devices around her leg, though, so the -- they can track her movements.

GRACE: Wait a minute. She`s got on an ankle bracelet like Paris Hilton got for a DUI?

BOARD: Yes.

GRACE: This woman, according to police, gunned down her husband, point-blank range with his 4-year-old daughter in the sofa, you know, like 30-feet away and she has an ankle bracelet on? Boo-hoo.

Domingo Ramirez, Jr., with the "Ft. Worth Star-Telegram," who is this Judge Scott Wisch? Is he the one that let her out on bond?

DOMINGO RAMIREZ, JR., SR. REPORTER, FT. WORTH STAR-TELEGRAM": Well, I mean that`s the judge, once he listened to everything, reduced the bail but there are restrictions other than the tracker. The passports have been taken away from her and she has to meet with authorities twice a month. So there are some strict conditions in regards to her release.

GRACE: Domingo Ramirez, you must have the courthouse beat, and you`re worried about what this judge might think, because a restriction, a restriction? She`s out walking free. Do you think if this was a man that committed the crime or a minority that they would have to bond like this or a point blank range shooting?

Unleash the lawyers. Holly Hughes, John Manuelian.

Come on, Holly. I know you`re a defense lawyer but remember those days as a prosecutor and you would argue against bonds on the bond calendar? Remember those days, Holly? I do. Why is this woman walking free with nothing more than an ankle bracelet?

HOLLY HUGHES, PROSECUTOR: Well, it tells me that the judge, number one, doesn`t think she`s a threat to anybody else out there in the community and like it or not, Nance, you and I know it comes down to what the judge says. And what the judge orders. He doesn`t think she`s a threat to anybody and he thinks she`s going to show up for her trial because those are the things they consider when setting a bond.

GRACE: Those are some of the things they consider, John Manuelian. Those are some of the things. Why is she out on bond? Both of you know that if this were a man or a minority, specifically a minority, not a rich white educated female from a $4.5 million Tudor-style home they`d be in jail. Why is she waling free? Manuelian?

JOHN MANUELIAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Apparently the judge didn`t -- apparently the judge didn`t think that she was a flight risk and I`m assuming that`s why she got the electronic monitor. And you`re absolutely right, Nancy.

GRACE: Is there an echo in here? Am I crazy but isn`t that just what Hughes has said?

MANUELIAN: No. She was talking about a threat to society. I`m talking about a flight risk. That`s another factor for bail and apparently this judge didn`t feel that she was in fact a flight risk. That`s what --

GRACE: Holly Hughes said she thinks that Michelle Williams is going to go -- show up at trial. That means no flight risk. Translation, no, this is wrong. This is a trouble standard of justice. It`s wrong.

We are taking your calls. This woman, Michelle Williams, now charged with shooting her husband point-blank range as he lies asleep, possibly sedated in bed with their 4-year-old little girl in the room next door, is walking free. Now is that justice? No. It`s not.

We are taking a break and taking your calls.

I want to remind you that our family album is back showing your photos from the iReport. Here are South Dakota friends, the Holmes. Mom Christina, 5-year-old Samantha at the Elton Air Force Base. While Daddy Nathan is deployed outside Saudi Arabia. Samantha loves princesses and airplanes and can`t wait to see her dad.

Let`s see your family photos. Go to hlnTV.com/Nancygrace and click on "Nancy`s Family Album."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A buddy of mine over here discovered the child.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: No more than 25 degrees outside.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They just (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No pants on, no clothes.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: He ran next door to get his father and the two quickly rushed the unclothed infant inside.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The baby left on the front step.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: They called 911, laid her on the dining room table and began CPR.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There was a baby left on your front steps.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How bizarre. It was freezing last night.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The child was rushed to Children`s Hospital.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We keep thinking, if you want a child cared for, there`s places. And even a knock on the door and then so somebody can take care of.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whoever left the baby out there, I`m pretty sure you`re watching, but that`s kind of messed up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Plunging winter temperatures, someone leaves an infant baby girl on a cement slab doorstep, leaving the baby girl to die. Who abandoned this child?

We are taking your calls. I want to go out to Alexis Weed. Alexis, what happened?

ALEXIS WEED, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Nancy, a neighbor in this northeast Washington, D.C. community was walking home from a gas station. It was 11:30 at night. He stumbles upon what he thinks is maybe a baby doll. He`s concerned. He goes next door to where he lives with his father. He asked his father, please come with me and take a look here.

The both of them, they come back, they unwrap a towel from what they thought was a doll finding, Nancy, it`s a real baby, an infant baby, a newborn.

GRACE: Why did they think it was a doll, Alexis?

WEED: You know, I don`t know, Nancy, but I think as uncommon as it would be to see a little baby on some concrete steps in this residential neighborhood, perhaps that was plausible at the time.

GRACE: Did anybody live in the home where the baby was left?

WEED: Yes. A schoolteacher lives there, Nancy, with his wife. He also has children. He was asleep at the time when the police were eventually called for this incident.

GRACE: I wonder if there was any rhyme or reason to leaving the baby on the doorstep of a schoolteacher. I wonder if there is a connection to the schoolteacher, like -- was the mother a student in the school or knew him from him teaching her in the past?

We are taking your calls. An infant girl, a baby, left there in plunging, freezing winter temperatures, abandoned on the doorstep of a home.

Straight out to Emmanuel Dugger, who found the baby girl. Emanuel, thank you for being with us. What happened?

EMMANUEL DUGGER, FOUND ABANDONED BABY GIRL: Actually, what happened, I was just going to the store to make a run and as I was walking back I noticed there was something that was wrapped up in the towel on my neighbor`s step. I looked at it and it seems to be two legs dangling out of the towel. So the baby was like partially wrapped up.

I wasn`t sure if it was a child or not. It looked like at first -- at first it looked like it was a doll baby. I was hoping it was a doll baby. My neighbor usually have his kids playing outside. They usually they leave toys outside. So normally if I play with toys, I`d place them on the step where I see the item or the child wrapped up in a partial towel.

So anyway, as I was looking, I was startled and I was shocked. I couldn`t believe what I was seeing. So I had to grab -- I was thinking let me go and grab my father. And my father is a pastor. He can help me with this. I wasn`t sure if I should move it or not. I grabbed my father, I told my father what was going on. My father immediately brought a towel, when he grabbed the towel he went outside, he looked at it, he moved -- he moved the towel that the baby was partially wrapped up in and it was a baby.

It was a baby that wasn`t moving. The body was so cold it had blood coming from the nose, from the mouth area, and you could tell the baby had lost his bowels. The skin looking kind of --- was just kind of looking like hard. That the color --

GRACE: You know what, Emmanuel, Mr. Dugger, I know that I asked you those facts, what happened, but I can hardly even stand to hear it. It`s just so hurtful to hear about the baby in that condition.

Alexis, do we know the cause of death?

WEED: We don`t. We asked today, Nancy, and they`re holding back on releasing it as of right now.

GRACE: To Dr. Joy M. Carter, chief forensic psychiatrist joining us out of Indianapolis. in those conditions, how long would it take for a child to die, an infant, a newborn, the cold of hypothermia?

DR. JOY M. CARTER, CHIEF FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST: Well, it may take about an hour or so. It would be important to try to determine if they could get a temperature from the body to determine how quickly the body temperature went down. Also they want to prove if this child was born alive or born dead and just left out.

GRACE: To Michael Morrisey, co-founder of Baby Safe Haven, New England. Michael, it doesn`t have to be this way. Why? Explain.

MICHAEL MORRISEY, CO-FOUNDER, BABY SAFE HAVEN NEW ENGLAND: Nancy, I - - when I saw the story I started looking at things like maps, where the fire stations were. There`s one a half a mile away. And with the Baby Safe Haven Law in Washington, D.C., and, yes, there is one in Washington, D.C., in every single state, you can walk into a fire station, a police station, or hospital, or even an EMT or EMS station, and hand the baby over with absolutely no questions asked. Up to seven days old in D.C.

GRACE: Is it posted, Michael -- Michael Morrisey, with us from Baby Safe Haven New England. Is it posted so someone that speaks, for instance, English or Spanish, is there a sign they could understand that says you can leave your baby here? No questions asked?

MORRISEY: In a lot of places there are. In a lot of plays there aren`t. You`ve got to remember this law is in some places only three or four years old and in some places 10 years old. So the word`s getting out but because it happens so infrequently, you don`t see the blanket media coverage and you know the blanket media awareness campaigns that really have to be out there. It`s really inherent on young people to talk to young people about this, to make it successful.

GRACE: To Pat Brown, criminal profiler, author of "The Profiler." Pat, what do you think?

BROWN: Well, I think this is a drug addict. I think this is a woman who`s pretty much not all together home. I don`t think she was trying to kill the baby or she would have thrown the child in the trash. I actually think she was trying to find a, quote, "home for the baby."

She knew this was a nice little neighborhood. And it`s down a ways from New York Avenue coming into Washington, D.C., Salvation Army is there, there are homeless shelters there. I think she walked out over there, she thought it was a nice place to leave her baby because she was just, you know, not quite right in the head.

GRACE: Holly Hughes, John Manuelian.

Holly, will she face charges?

HUGHES: Yes. She`s looking at the very least at child neglect, child abuse. If there`s aggravated child abuse. It could also be criminally negligent homicide, if this can be proven to be intentional, and she told somebody she was going to abandon it, maybe even a manslaughter or murder two.

GRACE: What about it, Manuelian?

MANUELIAN: Yes, I agree. I think she was a drug addict as your profiler said and I think she`s looking at manslaughter charges.

GRACE: Well, that`s convenient for all of you with no evidence whatsoever to claim it was a drug addict. Do you think that changes anything? Voluntary use of drugs or alcohol is not a defense.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We wrapped her up. Keeping her warm.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The child was rushed to Children`s Hospital.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Left it to die.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Left it to die.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Emmanuel Dugger was walking back from a mini- mart at around midnight when he saw something he will never forget.

DUGGER: Newborn baby girl. It`s a little girl.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: But the baby girl was lifeless and freezing cold.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With no clothes on at all.

DUGGER: Child needs immediate care, and couldn`t get anything.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Had to be a cold hearted person.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls. Who abandoned an infant baby girl on a doorstep? A cement slab doorstep to die?

Out to the lines. Sue in Georgia. Hi, Sue. What`s your question?

SUE, CALLER FROM GEORGIA: Yes. Do you think this could have been a case of -- a serious case of postpartum depression?

GRACE: I think it`s possible. Of course it`s possible. But even depression will not be a defense.

Dr. Carter, does postpartum depression manifest immediately at the time of birth?

CARTER: It can.

GRACE: Does it normally?

CARTER: Not always. Some women can be depressed while they`re pregnant and then after the child comes home, they can`t deal with the situation. It really depends.

GRACE: Pat Brown, does it manifest that soon after birth?

BROWN: Well, anybody can be depressed at any time. And a baby can make you more depressed. But I think we`re looking at a crack head. I mean I`m sorry but this is what the area would have in it, and this is why I think the woman left the child. She just was out of her mind because she was a crack head.

GRACE: I think it`s more convenient for us to imagine the perp had a drug problem, so we wouldn`t have to confront that somebody in their right mind would do this to a little baby.

Let`s stop and remember Army Chief Warrant Officer II Scott Dyer, 38, Coco Beach, Florida, killed Afghanistan. Third tour. Awarded Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Legion of Merit, adventurous, athletic, coached children`s softball. Getting children in Afghanistan bicycles. Leaves behind parents Carl and Sandra, stepfather Steve, sisters Tanya and Dawn, widow Jodie, daughter Sidney, son Casey.

Scott Dyer, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you. And a special good night from Illinois friend, Karen. Isn`t she beautiful? Winner of the Chris Evert Charity auction. Thank you for being with us, friend.

And happy birthday to Kathy Castricone (ph). A career girl who traveled the world settled down with true love Tom, and then there was four. Twins, Gabriella and Isabella, extremely premature, just 1 and 2 pounds, beat the odds, thanks to mommy.

Kathy, happy birthday.

And tonight, get well to Mr. Anthony Sicoli, the father of our executive producer, Dean Sicoli.

The show is not the same without you watching, Mr. Sicoli. Please get well.

Everyone, see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END