Return to Transcripts main page

NANCY GRACE

Female Park Ranger Shot and Killed at Mr. Rainier

Aired January 2, 2012 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. We go live to a U.S. national park. New Year`s Day, a beautiful young female park ranger/mom of two toddlers gunned down in the park. Bombshell tonight. That`s right, while many Americans lounging at home in their PJs, enjoying day one 2012, young female park ranger Margaret Anderson hard at work when a 22-year-old tattooed gun freak, Ben Barnes, blasts through a guard gate, and when approached by the female park ranger and mom, guns her down at point-blank.

Tonight, with the manhunt on, her toddler children, ages 1 and 3, left asking, Where`s Mommy?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tonight, the hunt is on for Barnes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Manhunt going on right now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A man wanted for questioning in the fatal shooting of a park ranger.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Teams of officer are hot on the trail of an armed gunman.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Killer on the loose in Washington`s Mt. Rainier Park.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Massive manhunt right now for a man wanted for questioning in the killing of a park ranger.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If he is out there and is in these mountains right now, walking around...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s got an assault rifle.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An armed gunman is on the loose in Washington`s Mt. Rainier National Park.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s killed a law enforcement officer, and he`s out there armed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. As we go live to a U.S. National park -- think, New Year`s Day, a beautiful young female park ranger and mom of two toddlers gunned down in the park. That`s right, while many Americans lounging at home in their PJs, enjoying day one 2012, this female park ranger, Margaret Anderson, already hard at work when a 24-year-old tattooed gun freak blasts through the little guard gate, and when approached by Margaret, guns her down point-blank.

Tonight, the manhunt is on. But at home, her toddler children, ages 1 and 3, left asking, Where is Mommy?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Authorities are looking for Benjamin Barnes. Barnes is heavily armed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Came out and opened fire on her inside of her car, put multiple rounds inside of her car.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The suspect just shot her dead and took off on foot.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The hunt for the gunman.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Breaking news from Washington state, where an all-out manhunt is under way for an Iraq war vet considered armed and dangerous.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Breaking news. Mt. Rainier National Park locked down this morning as police hunt for the gunman who shot and killed a park ranger.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Deputies, SWAT teams and FBI agents are using infrared.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Mt. Rainier, CNN correspondent standing by, Patrick Oppman. Patrick, thank you for being with us. Patrick, while a lot of Americans were enjoying the day off, Margaret, a mom of two toddlers and now the first Mt. Rainier park ranger to be gunned down in the line of duty -- she`s gunned down when she tries to approach this guy that blasts through a little security guard check.

Patrick, what happened?

PATRICK OPPMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): And ironically enough, Nancy, Margaret Anderson was actually trying to help this individual, the suspect. The checkpoint had been set up merely to let drivers know that they need certain equipment, like snow tires or chains, to get up in the mountain because there is so much snow on the mountain this time of year, and they don`t want to have to rescue people who go off the road.

And the suspect, though, blew through this checkpoint that was set up to help people. She tried to stop him, and then he did a U-turn, authorities, got out, opened on her, shot her in the car. We`re not sure if she ever had a chance to withdraw (SIC) her weapon. Authorities believe that she was wearing body armor, but that did not save her life.

Then the suspect fled into the woods. And this is really chilling, Nancy. He continued firing at police, the SWAT team that came, for about 90 minutes -- for about 90 minutes kept them from getting to Margaret Anderson`s body.

He`s still at large. Police this morning said they think they have a better idea where in the sprawling park he might be located and they`re tracking him. But still a very, very dangerous individual. So as you can imagine, Nancy, they`re treading very, very carefully as they close in on the suspect.

GRACE: With me right now, CNN correspondent Patrick Oppman at the scene. We are live in a national park where a young mom of two toddlers, ages 1 and 3, has been gunned down, according to our sources, point-blank, hard at work on New Year`s Day. There you see Margaret, the mother of two, one of the very few female park rangers there at Mt. Rainier National Park.

And this is in the park! Just like I have gone hiking in so many national parks. Many of you have. I`ve taken my children to them, my family to them. Here this woman is trying to help a park visitor. She approaches his car, trying to help him, and unbeknownst to him (SIC), he jumps out and guns her down point-blank. Tonight, her two toddlers, ages 1 and 3, asking, Where is Mommy?

The manhunt is on. And we are live, taking your calls. Patrick Oppman joining us from the scene. Patrick, what can you tell me about the park itself? What are the conditions? I understand this tattooed gun freak, age 24-year-old Ben Colton Barnes, has been leading the feds and the locals through, for instance, creeks and waterways, obviously a survivalist trying to lose his trail.

OPPMAN: Yes. And that`s going to probably be very hard, Nancy, because authorities said this morning they don`t believe the suspect, the person of interest, Benjamin Colton Barnes, has snowshoes. Authorities here, of course, do have snowshoes. And the area he`s in, he would be in chest-deep snow. So very, very challenging area. He`s a survivalist. He had some survival gear in the car...

GRACE: Whoa! Wait a minute! Wait a minute! What freak is going around wearing body armor with survival gear in his car? What do you mean by survival gear? And why is he wearing body armor? I don`t like it, Patrick Oppman!

OPPMAN: If it`s the same people -- the same person that police believe it is, this Benjamin Barnes, he was already being sought after for a shooting at New Year`s Eve that injured four people.

So the scenario that police laid out for us this morning, Nancy, is fugitive on the run, heavily armed. They think he was trying to get into the park because it is such a large wild place, where one could disappear if you had the kind of skills they believe this individual has.

So the theory they`re operating on he was hoping to get into this park to flee since authorities were already hot on his trail. As he came in the park...

GRACE: Wait! Wait! Wait! Wait! I`m seeing shots of this guy right now. "Pride, envy, gluttony, lust" -- those are the seven deadly sins he`s got tattooed on the back of his neck! And this looks an awful lot like a mug shot, Jean Casarez.

JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": ... custody dispute in July. And this is very interesting because the man that is at large now -- a man hunt continues for Benjamin Colton Barnes. There was a custody dispute in July, and the mother of his child said that he was always very angry, depressed, and kept an arsenal of weapons in his home.

GRACE: OK, I`m just trying to take in all of these tattoos. Ellie -- let me see them again, Liz. Ellie Jostad joining us. I see handcuffed hands. I see a cross of some sort on his stomach. Liz, please go back to the tattoos. I saw the seven deadly sins tattooed on the back of his neck. There he is with an assault weapon! Why does he have an assault weapon, number one?

Ellie, what can you tell me about all of these tattoos? What does that say on his chest over on his -- the left side of his chest? And wasn`t he at some, like, assault weapon Tupperware party right before this, Ellie?

ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Right, Nancy. Basically, what police are saying is that on New Year`s Eve, he was at a house party. Apparently, he and some of the other guests at this party -- they`re all in their 20s -- were showing off their weapons. Some sort of argument ensued. He actually exchanged gunfire with one of the other people at this party, and all four people were injured, two of them critically. And that is why he`s believed to have been on the run.

GRACE: I understand men and women at the assault weapon/Tupperware party thing -- they were having a house party, so to speak, where they`re all showing off their weapons. And whoa! Gee, who would imagine this? Four people get shot by this guy. They`re all alive. I can`t say the same for the young mom of two and park ranger Margaret Anderson.

I also want to go into the psyche of what kind of woman is attending an assault rifle party, where you`re showing off and maybe exchanging assault weapons. And what day was this, Ellie Jostad?

JOSTAD: This was New Year`s Even, Nancy. It was just about eight hours before he encountered the ranger, Margaret Anderson.

GRACE: And I thought I was crazy going out to have dinner and coming home to the twins on New Year`s Eve. Little did I know people were having assault weapon parties in their homes!

All right, take it from there, Patrick Oppman, joining us live at the scene, Mt. Rainier. What happens after the assault weapon party?

OPPMAN: Well, he allegedly comes into the park, encounters these two rangers, opens fire on them, leads authorities on what was called sort of a running gun battle through the woods. And now there`s a furious manhunt on, Nancy, as over 200 law enforcement officials are combing this park.

Last night, they had to put everyone who was in the park, all the visitors on what was an unseasonably sunny day, on lockdown and then escort them under gunpoint for their own protection out of the park.

There`s still about 10 people within the park, Nancy, that they`ve not been able to find, people hiking on some of the back roads of the park. They don`t believe those people are in any danger, Nancy, but they`re desperately trying to get them out of this park so they have this park completely empty while they continue their manhunt.

GRACE: You know, to Pat Brown, criminal profiler, author of "The Profiler" -- and we`re about to be joined by a former park ranger who worked with Margaret. But Pat Brown, A -- your insight onto this freak, this tattooed gun enthusiast who gunned down a mom of a 1 and 3-year-old. She`s there as a park ranger for people like me, families like mine, who want to visit national parks on vacation, when she gets gunned down.

And I also want to not only look into the psyche of this guy who`s a survivalist, but also these children, what it does to a child to lose their mother at age 1 or 3. You weigh in first. I`m going to go to the shrink, Pat, on the children. But what about this guy.

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, first of all, some people are saying he`s an Iraqi vet and therefore he`s got PTSD. Garbage. This guy is a bitter psychopath who`s had problems with his custody of his child. He`s obviously got issues with other people that he goes and blows -- you know, starts gunfights.

And now I don`t believe he`s trying to disappear into the wilderness, like they`re saying. That`s ridiculous. If he wanted to do that, he could have done it quietly. He blasted through that checkpoint purposely to start a manhunt. I think he`s trying to do Rambo and a suicide by cop. He`s going to take as many people as he can before they shoot him down, but that`s why he`s got his body armor, so he can take out the cops and have his last moment in the sun.

GRACE: This 24-year-old tattooed gun freak knows what he`s doing. He`s taking the park rangers and the feds now, who are using heat-seeking methods to find this guy -- he`s taking them through rivers, through creeks. And he`s still on the run. This after shooting down a young female park ranger, a mother of two. While we`re all home New Year`s Day, she loses her life, a 1 and 3-year-old asks, Where is Mommy?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Benjamin Barnes is heavily armed, wearing body armor, and has experience surviving in deep woods and snow.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have this guy we just showed you with high- powered automatic weapons, who`s already shot multiple people and killed a law enforcement officer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They say Barnes has military training, is heavily armed and is believed to have come to Mt. Rainier to hide out after a shooting at a house party in Skyway this morning.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Park rangers tell us that Barnes is a military veteran, and Pierce County says that he has had issues with law enforcement in the past.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We know at a minimum he`s got an assault rifle. He`s already shot some people at a party earlier. He`s killed a law enforcement officer. And he`s Out there armed. So we`re doing what we can to catch him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls. New Year`s Day, when so many people have the day off, this young mom of two, a park ranger in a national park, there in the park, minding her own business when she is gunned down by a 24-year-old tattooed gun enthusiast, let me say euphemistically. There`s a shot Benjamin Colton Barnes. I`m sure his parents are proud!

Now we are learning possibly his motive. He`s fresh off another shooting. Just before that on New Year`s Eve when a lot of people were shooting firecrackers in the back yard to let off steam and celebrate, this guy is at an assault weapon/Tupperware-type party, showing off his assault weapons for admiration and exchange, when he unloads on four of the guests.

He is on the run right now in a national park, where tourists are. We`re talking about Mt. Rainier. Take a look at this national park. Margaret, the mother of 1 and 3-year-old toddlers -- her husband, a park ranger along with her, living their dream, starting their family, the world ahead of them. She is gunned down at point-blank range by this freak. And tonight, the manhunt is on.

To Patrick Oppman, CNN correspondent, joining us there at Mt. Rainier. When I think about it, Patrick, her leaving behind a 1 and 3-year-old -- that`s a whole `nother aspect of this. This is the first female park ranger, to my understanding, who loses her life in the line of duty, the first ever there at Mt. Rainier, one of the largest national parks in our country and one of the most frequently visited by innocent tourists.

Patrick, what are they doing to find this guy?

OPPMAN: Everything they can. They have federal law enforcement now leading this investigation. They`re using helicopters and planes that have infrared technology. They have trackers out with snowshoes and know this park like the back of their hand, Nancy, and they`re the ones who identified this area where they believe the suspect is.

And I should just add that Margaret Anderson`s husband is also a ranger, who was also on duty yesterday.

GRACE: Oh!

OPPMAN: Were told this morning by the ranger staff that all the rangers in this park -- in the high season, there about 200 of them -- they all know each other very, very well. They`re a very tight-knit community, obviously a community torn apart by this tragic and unfortunate killing.

GRACE: Oh! Just imagine him on duty there with his wife, when he hears over his radio that a ranger down, probably never thinking it could be his wife, the mother of his two children, ages 1 and 3.

I almost hate to even show this tattooed gun freak, but I want you to see 24-year-old Benjamin Colton Barnes on the run now. There you see a partial list of the seven deadly sins -- Pride, envy, gluttony, lust -- tattooed on his neck.

Everybody, also at Mt. Rainier, I wonder tonight if they are using multiple live Webcams at Mr. Rainier to look for this guy. I don`t know if they`re relevant to the shooting, but excellent, excellent for reference to see the terrain and weather there.

We are taking your calls. But quick, to Ramani Durvasula, Dr. Durvasula, a clinical psychologist joining me tonight out of LA. What effect is this going have on the 1 and 3-year-old toddlers that Margaret leaves behind?

RAMANI DURVASULA, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: It`s a terrible loss for them, Nancy. I mean, obviously the loss of a mother is a catastrophic loss. She was clearly a connected, involved mother. And it`ll forever change the landscape of their lives.

But they also have a very involved father, and the hope is that the community will unite around them. Their father will be there for them and really help them lessen the blow of this unfathomable loss. But yes, it will change them forever. And initially, you`ll expect them to be clingy and they`ll have nightmares and there`ll be a lot of fear, and they`ll be looking for her. That`s the saddest thing of all, to watch them look for her.

GRACE: With me, Chief Gary Olson (ph) coming up next and taking calls. He worked with Margaret, former park ranger. Take a look at the scene. The manhunt is on for the man that guns down a young park ranger there at the national park New Year`s Day, leaving behind a 1 and 3-year- old, both toddlers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It appears to be one (INAUDIBLE) people have been shot today, and there`s nothing that`s going to stop him from shooting somebody else, taking somebody hostage.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The area is surround by high mountains. Searchers believe if he wants to live until morning, Barnes has to come through the main gate and right into swarms of waiting officers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This -- she was so thrilled about her kids.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the search goes on to find the killer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Appears to be one in a long (INAUDIBLE) victim (ph) people have been shot today. And there`s nothing that`s going to stop him from shooting somebody else, taking somebody hostage.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls. You`re seeing shots of the young mom of two, ages 1 and 3. This was a young park ranger, Margaret Anderson. She lost her life there in the national park, where many of us go to vacation, to hike, to take our children. And right now, this guy`s still on the loose in a national park, heavily armed and dangerous. Margaret never knew what was coming.

We are taking your calls. Out to Bill in Florida. Hi, Bill. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Nancy. I have two questions.

GRACE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Such a sad event. When visitors come to the park, aren`t they checked somehow? Don`t they check cars as they come into the park? And if he is said to be -- have military training, was he in the -- was he a military man?

GRACE: OK...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In other words...

GRACE: Hold. Hold, Bill. Let`s get the answer to those questions. To Jean Casarez. What about his alleged military training? Did he actually deploy to Iraq?

CASAREZ: Yes. He was member of the U.S. military deployed to Iraq in 2007, 2008. And it was at a checkpoint that he evaded and just went straight through the park. It was to see if you had chains on because if you didn`t have chains, you couldn`t proceed into Mt. Rainier Park.

GRACE: So Jean Casarez, you`re saying that the checkpoint was simply for safety purposes. Margaret Anderson had no idea this guy had just shot up people at a gun party, and she`s trying to stop him to warn him about having chains on his tires when he plows through, gets out of his vehicle and unloads on her.

To Victoria Taft, joining us from KPAM. What about visitors being checked at the national park? I mean, I`m sure that they see the cars coming through, but I`ve never had my vehicle checked when I would go hiking.

VICTORIA TAFT, TALK SHOW HOST, AM 860 KPAM: Sometimes they do that, Nancy, especially in these high wilderness areas. You have to have chains on your tires, or at least carry them, or they won`t let you in because if you get stuck in that five feet of snow that`s up at Mt. Rainier right now, they don`t want to have to come looking for you. And that`s what this is all about.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At a minimum, he`s got an assault rifle. He`s already shot some people at a party earlier. He`s killed a law enforcement officer. And he`s out there armed. So we`re doing what we can to catch him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tonight the hunt is on for Barnes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Manhunt going on right now. A man wanted for questioning in the fatal shooting of park ranger.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Teams of officers are hot on the trail of an armed gunman, killer on the loose.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I watched him from Mt. Rainer Park.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A massive manhunt right now for a man wanted for questioning in the killing of a park ranger.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If he is out there and is in these mountains right now walking around --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s got assault rifle.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An armed gunman is on the loose in Washington`s Mount Rainier national park.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s killed a law enforcement officer and out there armed.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST: Breaking news right now. Apparently Ben Colton Barnes, the 24-year-old gun enthusiast covered in tattoos has been found there in the park.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of the air units and FBI S.W.A.T. members and sheriffs S.W.A.T. team members have found a body. We have not gotten to it. We`re not near to it. It`s still buried in the snow. There`s a lot of possibilities out there whether could it be him or not be him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: This is the guy that guns down 34-year-old Margaret Anderson, the mother of two. To Chief Gary Olson, retired park ranger, worked with Margaret. What can you tell us tonight about Margaret, the young mom of two?

CHIEF GARY OLSON, RETIRED PARK RANGER (via telephone): Margaret was a very professional person. Dedicated to, you know her craft, all around ranger. You know she could do the law enforcement, the medical, emergency medicine, firefighting, basic rescue techniques.

GRACE: What can you tell me about her as a person, her as a mom?

OLSON: Very friendly person. Very proud to be a mom in her children. The park service would use the fire station for training and she would bring the babies along with her.

GRACE: Like so many moms bringing their children to work. With me Chief Gary Olson who worked with Margaret. In all your years as a park ranger and I`m a little familiar with it, serving as a height master in a national park going through college, did you ever fear for your life chief Olson?

OLSON: I was on a couple of incidents. One was in Colorado where these three guys murdered a cop, and a manhunt went on for a week. I was involved in that. And then, you know, poaching poachers. They are well armed.

GRACE: You were a ranger at Mount Rainier for years. What is the terrain like there Chief Olson?

OLSON: In the paradise area where Margaret was killed, it`s rolling snow. It goes from flat, you know, 60 degree angles into the gullies and back out again. It`s above fine so it`s open but not that far above the forest.

GRACE: Everyone, breaking news right now. The alleged shooter of the young mom of two, the park ranger gunned down there in the park where tourists and visitors alike go, has been found. 24-year-old Benjamin Colton Barnes has been found.

I`m going to go to a survivalist joining us tonight. Bob Detmer is joining us from Bedford, survival expert. How it is that someone like this guy, Benjamin Colton Barnes and it brings to mine Eric Rudolph the Olympic bomber and some others -- we`ll see a shot Rudolph, who managed to elude cops. I mean, you know, Rudolph kept cops on the run and the feds for years in the Carolina Mountain. How do you do it? How do you do it, Detmer?

BOB DETMER, OUTDOOR SURVIVAL EXPERT (via telephone): First let me say my prayers are with the Anderson family. This is an incredible, incredible sad, sad situation. And, of course, we want to make sure that people continue to go to parks and not be afraid for their lives when they go to a park.

Let me answer your question. There are people who are survival experts, but they don`t do well when they are in a survival situation and, yet, there could be civilians who do extremely well in a survival situation. It all has to do, Nancy, with their state of mind. It`s the psychology of survival. It`s your mental attitude. How do you handle stress. How do you problem solve when you`re out in the wilderness. How is your memory holding up? How is your reasoning? Is fear driving you.

But Nancy, I think one of the things we have to talk about and maybe you can comment on this and that is, what inspired him to do this in the first place? Is it because of stress from him being in the military? I was in the army. I was a combat medic during the Vietnam War although I did not see combat, thankfully, but I was drafted. And I still have nightmares.

GRACE: Well, I tell you, Bob, I think that it`s not so much connected to his deployment to Iraq as to him being on the run from a multiple shooting at a gun party. It`s like a Tupperware party except with assault weapons.

Unleash the lawyers. Everyone joining me right now. John Bert Carl of, but we are hearing that this guy, Benjamin Colton Barnes, age 24, heavily tattooed gun freak has been found. John Burris, San Francisco defense lawyer, Carla Bell, L.A. defense lawyer.

First to you, Burris. The death penalty is in effect. A park ranger is treated just like a cop. When a cop is gunned down not that their lives are more valuable than ours as a civilians, it`s just that they are a symbol of our government, the same goes for park rangers. So you gun down a park ranger, you`re looking at the federal death penalty, Burris.

JOHN BURRIS, DEFENSE LAWYER: Absolutely. You certainly can. But I think that we do have to look from a constitutional rights point of view.

GRACE: What?

BURRIS: We have to go back --

BURRIS: His military career --

GRACE: Why?

BURRIS: His military career, what happened to him, whether or not he in fact --

GRACE: What happened to him?

BURRIS: Absolutely. It`s important in terms of evaluating.

GRACE: What happened to Margaret?

BURRIS: We know Margaret was killed. We know that was a terrible situation.

GRACE: She was murdered.

BURRIS: At the end of the day -- she was murdered, obviously. But at the same time, you have to look at the question of what kind of defense there will be and he`s got -- you have to look at his medical record. You have to look at his PTSD that he may have suffered from. Just because he did something earlier doesn`t mean he wasn`t suffering for a long time as a consequence of this. This is all has to be evaluated in terms of what else happens to him.

GRACE: All right. Burris, you know what, the next time I go on a shooting rampage I`ll count on you to cook up a post-traumatic stress disorder.

BURRIS: This is not a cook up.

GRACE: Yes, whatever.

BURRIS: This is reality.

BURRIS: It hasn`t been long. He hasn`t been out of the military very long. A lot of people come out of the military and suffer -- PTSD is something that`s being looked at closely now by the doctors. But it hasn`t been -- he may be an untreated person that as a result this flows out of it. But I don`t think we shouldn`t dismiss it as not having some value.

GRACE: You know military vets all over the country probably want to strangle you right now John Burris for using military service as a defense to murdering a young mom and park ranger.

BURRIS: It`s not a total defense.

GRACE: Yes. What about it Carla Bell?

CARLA BELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know what, Nancy. This is a terrible way for any family to start the New Year. But the truth of the matter is that Mr. Barnes is entitled to a defense and if post-traumatic stress disorder can part of it, then even how is that the defend is part of our due process in the century.

GRACE: You know what, Carla Bell. You`re bursting getting up all you wanted, but post-traumatic stress syndrome after gunning down a park ranger, a young mom of, two following an all night binge shooting at a gun party? No. It`s not is going to work.

Breaking news right now. We understand Benjamin Colton Barnes has been found.

(BEGIN VIDEO CIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just a huge tragedy, you know, for the family, for the park, for the park service as well.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her primary job was to protect the visitors and serve people. She was part of our snow play operation, help kids go sledding at paradise, keeping them safe. So this hurts.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What we need to do is, wait until they can make contact the body. It will take a lot of work to get to. It can still be a couple of hours before they get to it to determine whether it`s him or not. It`s a strong probability as it is. We hope it is. We don`t have another victim out there as part of this. But until we determine, at this point we`re just saying there`s a body that`s been found.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We`re taking your calls. We`re being joined live at Mount Rainier national park. A young mom of two, the children just ages one and three gunned down at a national park, a park full of tourists of hikers, of families like mine, like yours.

This guy, a heavily tattooed 24-year-old, let me say gun enthusiast translation freak, blasts through a security checkpoint where this young mom was simply trying to warn him to put chains on his tires for his own safety. He opens fire. How could this happen when many Americans at home in their P.J.`s celebrating day one of 2012.

Margaret at work. Her husband also a park ranger with her. Margaret, in the paradise portion of the Mount Rainier national park.

To Dr. Joye M. Carter, chief forensic pathologist Marian County, author of "I Speak for the dead." Joining us tonight out of Petersburg, Dr. Carter, thank you for being with us.

You know what, Dr. Carter, we have been told she was gunned down point blank. But in any event if she had not been point blank, what would she have gone through lying there in the snow, thinking of her children and who is going to raise them as she passes away? I`m getting updated information, Dr. Carter that she managed to radio a call for help.

DOCTOR JOYE M. CARTER, M.D., CHIEF FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST, MARIAN COUNTY (via telephone): Yes. My. Well. Receiving a gunshot wound to the chest area she would not have died immediately, but she certainly may have had time to think about many things and also to radio for help as she begins to lose blood from her internal organs, more likely the heart or aorta, a painful long death.

GRACE: You know, Dr. Carter, I don`t know what her ability to think and reason would have been lying there in the snow, thinking. But I recall in the hospital when Lucy and I nearly died after child birth, I had plenty of time to think about them being raised without their mother and what their life would be like, and I know it just must have been excruciating for her.

Dr. Carter, how long would it have taken for her to bleed out, to bleed to death there in the national park?

CARTER: Probably less than ten minutes.

GRACE: With me right now, W.W. Tripp, former police commander. You know Woody, you and I have been on a lot of homicide scenes together, a lot of them. But I`m not saying that any life is more valuable than the next, I`m not saying that at all.

But when I think of a young mom of two leaving behind these two children, her husband being there in the park hearing the call of a person down, and this mom in a park, a U.S. park of all places, lying there in the snow, bleeding out, dying, it makes me want to institute some kind of change, Woody, where trunks are routinely checked, people are routinely checked when they enter a national park like courthouses after the Atlanta courthouse shooting. I mean this guy should never have been allowed in to start with, Woody.

WOODROW TRIPP, FORMER POLICE COMMANDER, POLYGRAPH EXPERT: I agree, Nancy. And after listening to the defense attorneys, I just want to join hands and sing. I mean, that`s a crop. This guy is the new poster child for gun control.

You know, I`ve literally held -- I`ve been shot three times in the line of duty and I`ve held friends in my arms as they lay dying. So, to understand that and to appreciate that and then to see a mother of two only trying to talk to this guy. Nancy, trust me this is the same guy that if confronted by heavily armed police he will wind up running away or killing himself, he will not face the justice. He`s fine as long as he`s doing the shooting and no one is shooting at him. Mark my words.

GRACE: And this guy, you know, had stock up on survival gear, was wearing body armor.

Breaking news right now, we understand the shooter, Ben Colton Barnes, 24-year-old heavily tattooed gun enthusiast has been found, found in a ditch there in the national forest.

Bill in Florida, I think your question is answered. Visitors randomly checked not everybody is checked and I know for a fact when I hike national parks specifically in Colorado, my car was never checked.

Military training, yes to that. Bill in Florida. And now to Amy in Pennsylvania.

Hi, Amy, what`s your question?

AMY, CALLER, PENNSYLVANIA: Hi. I just want to know -- I just heard he was found. After this are we going to get more help for the guys coming home?

GRACE: You know, excellent question. Out to you to Pat Brown, the psyche behind our vets coming home has not really been addressed. Weigh in.

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER, AUTHOR, THE PROFILER: Well, I think we`re a little confused too about what this PTSD is. First of all, yes, you can have that coming out of the military. But it doesn`t turn you into a psychopath. Here, a psychopath before you go in, you actually may find that you enjoy it there in the military. But when you come out you get bored. And that`s the problem that you do need more help try to figure out what to do with these guys.

GRACE: Another issue there to Ramani Durvasula. Dr. Durvasula, our clinical psychologist from L.A. on many occasions this guy had threatened suicide, Romney. So, why when he threatened suicide he ended up killing some other people. We see it over and over. Instead of just killing themselves they kill other people. What`s that?

RAMANI DURVASULA, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST, LOS ANGELES: This history of threatening suicide speaks to probably lifelong issues with problem regulating his mood, his affect, his emotions.

GRACE: To Candice in Virginia. Hi, Candice, what`s your question, dear?

CANDICE, CALLER, VIRGINIA: Hi. I`m just wondering what the motive was in him killing the park ranger. Does anyone know why he did it?

GRACE: I think we have a good idea. Jean Casarez, legal correspondent "In Session" joining us. Jean, what about it?

JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, IN SESSION: I think it`s elimination of a witness. He knew he had just shot four people. He knew he was on the run. He didn`t want to have anyone to be able to identify him. But, Nancy, we`re learning more information and because after he shot Margaret, he had a gun and he kept shooting, it took law enforcement 90 minutes to get to Margaret`s body.

GRACE: And she may have lived. She may have lived if it hadn`t been for that, Jean Casarez.

Unleash the lawyers. John Burris, San Francisco, Carla Bell, L.A. So, you know, you two are cooking up your, I hate to put it out here like this, but you`re like two witches cooking up, stirring your brew, coming up with a post-traumatic stress syndrome disorder. But this guy was just at a gun party. How does that fit into his stress, Carla Bell? A gun party?

BELL: Well, you know what, Nancy. I can`t get in his particular state of mind at the time of the shooting. But the fact of the matter is that this man is entitled to a defense and we`re going to look into his history, what precipitated this terrible event to put on a defense for this man. He is entitled to a defense.

GRACE: Agree Burris?

BURRIS: Absolutely, I agree. And I think that this disgust you and again being debated for, doesn`t mean he wasn`t suffering, really suffering.

GRACE: So, you guys continue to insist on his right to a defense, but you`re both.

BURRIS: Absolutely.

GRACE: But, you both ignoring -- he was just fresh off a gun party, showing off, exchanging guns like Tupperware.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Margaret Anderson worked at Mount Rainer for about four years. She is an expert ranger, a very dedicated public servant and committed to park visitors and was an excellent ranger. Her husband also works in the park as a law enforcement ranger and they have two small children. So, it is a terrible loss. It is a great tragedy for the park service and all of us are grieving that loss.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Just in, it is our understanding this 24-year-old heavily tattooed gun enthusiast/freak has been found in a ditch there at the Mount Rainier national park. There at the national park, a young mom of two, children ages one and three, gunned down brutally as she tries to stop Ben Barnes just to warn him he needs chains on his tires.

Unbeknownst to her, here in this serene setting, the paradise area of the national park. He was fresh off a shooting of four at a gun party.

Tonight, our prayers and our thoughts with Margaret Anderson`s husband, also a park ranger, who probably heard the call for help as his wife lay dying there, and their two children, ages one and three. We`re getting the donation, the monetary donation Web site for you. It will be on Nancygrace.com or our HLN site if you want to donate.

Let`s stop and remember marine lance corporal Jeremy Shock, 22, Tiffin Ohio, killed in Iraq. Awarded Purple Heart, National defense service medal, Iraqi campaign medal. Loved playing football, graduated with honors with a bachelor`s in criminal justice. Wanted to become a lawyer. Leaves behind parents Dwayne and Sherry, brother Zack, Sister Sarah, Grandmother Sharon, wife Clara. Jeremy Shock, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us.

And tonight, a special thank you to David at Petsmart. He spent New Year`s Day with me setting up Lucy and John David`s fish tank. David, thank you. You spent a lot of time with us.

And congratulations to one of our superstars, Phil. He got married on New Year`s Day to beautiful Cristina in central park. Phil went with me to rebuild in Biloxi after hurricane Katrina. He is a wonderful guy and has a beautiful wife. Congratulations, Cristina and Phil.

Everyone, see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. For tonight, our prayers with Margaret and her family. And until tomorrow night, good night, friend.

END