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NANCY GRACE

Lake Searched for Missing 10-Month-Old

Aired October 27, 2011 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, the heartland. A 10- month-old baby sleeping in a crib just feet away from her own mother goes missing without a trace, front door unlocked, front window open, cell phones gone. Grainy surveillance video emerges, Mommy shopping just before baby Lisa vanishes. What does she buy? Baby food and a big box of wine! Mommy, knocked out drunk when the baby goes missing, changes her story as to the last time she sees her own baby.

Bombshell tonight. In the last hours, investigators converge at a lake only a mile from baby Lisa`s home. Police cadaver dogs surround the lake, taking to the water by boat, as cops search frantically. Was baby Lisa dumped in a lake? This as Mommy and Daddy cancel press and a tour of the home at the last minute. Mommy says she`s exhausted and, quote, "grieving."

As we go to air, we learn cops seize rolls of tape from the home. But why? With cops set to interview the little brothers, ages 5 and 8, in the next hours, tonight, where is 10-month-old baby Lisa?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A search is going on on all fronts to try to find baby Lisa or any leads.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We all need a rest. All appointments in Kansas City today and tomorrow are being postponed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They had one of the dogs, Lacey (ph), out on a boat, an inflatable boat that the fire department was managing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Anything that goes on with law enforcement in the interrogation can be spun a certain way.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And a week later, she changed her story.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is it true that you`re getting paid to avoid local reporters?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Surveillance video.

DEBORAH BRADLEY, MOTHER: Not at all.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And says she put the baby to sleep at 6:30, before drinking.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Then why won`t you talk to us?

BRADLEY: Because we`re grieving.

Because we`re grieving.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To find this baby.

BRADLEY: Just drop her off anywhere, we don`t care! Just somewhere safe!

GRACE: Mommy says she`s taken a polygraph, but she`s afraid she failed.

BRADLEY: Call the tips hotline!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let`s not castigate her. We know she made some mistakes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did things that we think are irresponsible, maybe immoral.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. In the last hours, investigators converge at a lake only a mile from baby Lisa`s home. Police cadaver dogs surround the lake, taking to the water, the dogs taking to the water by boat as the cops search frantically under the theory, Was baby Lisa dumped in the lake?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRADLEY: (INAUDIBLE) she was nowhere (INAUDIBLE)

GRACE: Search for baby Lisa ratchets up!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She paints herself in the corner.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Debbie says she checked on Lisa around 10:30 the night before.

BRADLEY: (INAUDIBLE) phone (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was two boys in the house when Mom was drinking and maybe even blacked out that could be a huge source of information.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My husband noticed that he was carrying a baby in his arms.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Then when Jeremy got home at 4:00 in the morning, Lisa was gone.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What was going on in the home, in the family, what they may have seen.

GRACE: Hasn`t Mommy admitted she was passed out cold drunk?

-- drunk...

-- drunk...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And the baby appears not to have anything on but a diaper.

GRACE: Mommy is trying to tell me...

BRADLEY: I was holding my boys and they were crying, asking what`s going on, where`s she at, why is she gone?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her down time was her drinking time. If that makes the parent impaired to the point that they`re incapable of taking care of children in their care.

GRACE: Has she had to explain to these children, Where`s baby Lisa?

BRADLEY: Please just drop her off anywhere!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are live and taking your calls. Straight out to Jim Spellman standing by at baby Lisa`s home. Jim, what can you tell me about cops converging on a lake that`s less than two miles from the family home and cadaver dogs actually taking to the water by boat?

JIM SPELLMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That`s right. There were about 30 investigators out there this afternoon, Nancy. One of these dogs, Lacey, went into the boat. This is a dog that`s been trained to detect human remains. And they say that Lacey can even smell if a body was inside the lake. She didn`t hit any positive hits from that lake, though, today. They were out there for about two or three hours today, Nancy.

GRACE: Everyone, we are live and taking your calls. Here you`re seeing video of the lake. This lake is a little over a mile from baby Lisa`s home. And today, cadaver dogs and cops converge on the lake, cadaver dogs taking to the lake by boat, in the hope of getting a clue as to the whereabouts of 10-month-old baby Lisa.

Jim Spellman, so much more has happened today in the last 24 hours, a lot of developments. I understand Mommy and Daddy announce they`re opening up their home to the press in order to answer questions, for questions to be put to rest. But then just before the press, the media, is supposed to go into the home and maybe hear from the Mommy and Daddy, they cancel the whole thing. Mommy says she`s exhausted and, quote, "grieving." Grieving? Does that suggest she knows baby Lisa is dead?

SPELLMAN: Well, I don`t know about that, Nancy. But all the media were out here ready to go. And I tell you, I`ve worked with a lot of PR people, a lot of lawyers, you know, on all sorts of stories, and I`ve never seen anything quite like this.

The attorneys here just seem overwhelmed by the simplest task. They had this all worked out. The parents weren`t even going to be here for it. It was just going to be the attorney leading what we call a pool camera, one camera that all the media share, to go into the home, and then have a press conference later that afternoon back at their office.

And they had to pull out at the last warning (ph), sending out kind of a (INAUDIBLE) confusing press conference -- press release, and then they sent another one out clarifying that they were putting everything off to next week.

It`s hard to tell what they`ve been doing to get exhausted, Nancy, because they don`t come out to speak to the media at all. It`s like pulling teeth to get any information from the family`s attorney. So it`s very confusing.

GRACE: I want to go to Steve Helling, staff writer, "People" magazine. Steve Helling, the mom says she`s grieving? Explain that to me, please.

OK. I don`t hear Steve. Let me know, Liz, when we get Steve from "People" magazine hooked up.

Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Dealbreakers" -- what about it, Bethany?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, to me the idea that she`s grieving maybe shows a consciousness of guilt. What I see more than grieving is that there is a massive resistance to telling an accurate narrative about what happened. Even if she blacked out, she has some narrative account of what happened that night, even if she remembers until 6:30, she woke up at 4:30, there`s a narrative with a blackout in the middle of it.

But she won`t even tell that narrative. She keeps switching from story to story. And you know, Nancy, there`s only one story that never changes, and that`s the truth.

GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight out of New York, Sue Moss, out of Atlanta, Raymond Giudice. Also with us, renowned defense attorney Richard Herman.

Weigh in, Sue Moss.

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Someone had to know Mom was drunk to take this baby from the bunk! Who was she partying with? Who was there? Somebody had to help her drink that box of wine! And that person may have done it, or know what happened! That`s why it`s so important to interview these two little boys because these two little boys -- apparently they weren`t blacked out! And to have them wait more than two, three weeks before anyone could speak to them has really hampered this investigation!

GRACE: To Richard Herman and Raymond Giudice. First to you, Herman. Mommy announces that she is exhausted and grieving. That sounds like she believes the baby is dead.

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, it sounds like her baby is missing and she`s devastated by this, Nancy. So she used the word "grieving." I don`t think she`s a rocket scientist, so that was the word that came to mind for her. She`s grieving because she misses her child and she wants the child to come back. That`s what the video just showed, her hysterical crying to the press.

GRACE: Ray?

RAYMOND GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, this is a PR mistake by their lawyers. This was an opportunity for them to answer questions and put the issues that you and Bethany Marshall just raised, the assumption that grieving means she knows the child is dead. They should have gone through with the tour, did the press conference in a controlled circumstance in their office, and moved on. Big defense mistake.

GRACE: Put up the lawyers, please -- Giudice, Herman and also Sue Moss. Sue, let`s just get real for a moment. I appreciate what Giudice and Herman are saying. And you know, maybe they can find a jury that would say that. Let me reiterate, the parents are not suspects.

But the lay definition, the lay interpretation of "grieving," I`m mourning, I`m grieving -- that`s interchangeable. And for the mom to say, I`m grieving, that`s not a good thing. That`s not a good thing at all.

MOSS: Absolutely! And add that to the fact that she has changed her story! I mean, when your child is missing, forget about what`s going to happen to you! You want to get all the facts to the law enforcement as quickly as possible! And to give a timeline that you were with the child until 10:30, when really, it was only 6:30, that`s four missing hours! And that could be very important to try to finding your child! So that alone puts some light on her as somebody you`ve got to watch!

GRACE: Out to the lines. Diane in Michigan. Hi, Diane. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. First of all, I love you on "Dancing With the Stars." You`re doing great.

GRACE: Thank you. Thank you so much. I`m already gearing up for the jive and the tango on Monday night. I`m a nervous wreck. What do you think about this case, Diane?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, I`ll make this the form of a question. Do you think that while Mommy was passed out in the bed, her boys could have been horseplaying around, swinging little baby Lisa, and possibly dropped her, which would have caused an accident, hit her on the head? She passed out. They woke up Mommy and said, Mommy, something`s wrong with Lisa. We can`t wake her up.

The Mommy finds out what they did. So in order to protect the boys and cover up herself for child neglect, someone in the family removes the baby from the home, and on the way out, they push in the screen.

GRACE: Diane in Michigan, I think that it`s possible. I do not think that it is probable because statistically, when you look at the number of times of children killing a sibling, it`s extremely rare. I remember when JonBenet Ramsey was killed, a bunch of -- a lot of people jumped on the "Burke did it" bandwagon. That statistically is not borne out.

What about it, Giudice?

GIUDICE: Well, I think the caller brings up the problem in this case. There are a lot of things that could have happened. That`s what the defense is going to look to exploit. If you listen to...

GRACE: OK...

GIUDICE: ... them, they put out a flyer that said...

GRACE: Ray -- you know what, Ray?

GIUDICE: ... kidnapped child wanted...

GRACE: You`re a super-smart defense lawyer, but I`m trying to just steer you in the middle of the road with that very direct question.

Herman, you take a crack at it. How likely is that scenario of Diane`s in Michigan? Be brief, please.

HERMAN: I don`t think the scenario has any validity at all.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lisa Irwin.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If she was to have been taken out of the house at night -- this is almost pitch-black.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police are going to interview the other children inside the home the night baby Lisa vanished.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re still working our tails off to try to figure out what happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRADLEY: (INAUDIBLE) around the house and we`re screaming for her and (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What really happened the night this little girl disappeared from her crib?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who are you talking to?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Complete mystery at this time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody`s talking about the parents.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The FBI and police are stumped on this one.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It just takes the one right nugget of information.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They haven`t had full cooperation of the parents since October 6th.

BRADLEY: Because we`re grieving.

-- grieving...

-- grieving...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No mother who`s looking for their child uses the word "grieving" unless they know their child is dead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An FBI cadaver dog made a positive hit.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A hit means the dog got the scent of a deceased human.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Whatever X-raying they did did not confirm whatever it was that some dog thought it smelled.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police now plan to question her brothers, two young boys who were in the room right next to baby Lisa.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: OK, wait a minute. Let me see a shot of Mommy there. OK, something`s different. Liz, has she gotten her hair cut since the baby went missing? Let me -- OK.

All right. Dr. Bethany, I`m sure the defense lawyers will say this means absolutely nothing. But when did Mommy have time while her baby is missing to get her hair done!

MARSHALL: When your baby`s missing, you can only think about one thing, that is the baby. You think about your baby.

Nancy, do you know what`s missing in all of this? I have not once heard this mother talk about the baby. Has she ever said, I miss my baby? If anybody knows anything about the baby, call me. Where`s my baby? It`s cold outside. Is my baby out in the cold? My favorite -- here`s the baby`s favorite toy. If you know where my baby is, bring her back.

There`s no reference to the baby, as if the baby is alive or as if the mother even has an attachment to the baby!

So we`re talking about the word "grief," which implies that the baby is gone, which is massively different from missing, which implies that the baby is separated temporarily and at some point will be reunited with her. That`s a very big difference.

GRACE: OK, Giudice, Herman and Sue Moss. What about it, Raymond Giudice?

GIUDICE: We see nothing but pictures right now of a happy, well-fed, clean-dressed baby with toys. And a disattachment theory is just out of the ballpark. This mom is not talking about the child, under her counsel`s advice. But all the information, all of these pictures and all this video...

GRACE: Put him up!

GIUDICE: ... shows a mom...

GRACE: Ray! Ray!

GIUDICE: ... who loves that child.

GRACE: Ray!

GIUDICE: Yes, look at that baby.

GRACE: Ray!

GIUDICE: That`s not an abused baby.

GRACE: Ray, can you just...

GIUDICE: I`m listening.

GRACE: I`m going to try you one more time.

GIUDICE: Come on.

GRACE: I`m going out on a limb with you, Raymond Giudice, to see maybe -- I`m going fishing here -- maybe you`ll bite at the question I`m asking you this time, all right? Yes, I can see. Don`t care. Mommy`s behavior, just as Bethany Marshall describes it, is very, very unusual. When do you have time to go get your hair styled while your baby`s missing?

GIUDICE: She did it in the bathroom with a brush. It doesn`t look like she got some fancy haircut on Madison Avenue.

GRACE: You know, Ray...

GIUDICE: It looks like she did it in the bathroom.

GRACE: You know, Ray, I`ve known you a very...

GIUDICE: Twenty-five years.

GRACE: ... very long time.

GIUDICE: And you know there`s no MO for Mom.

GRACE: And you know what? Never mind! You know what? Cut his mike because I can`t get a question!

Richard Herman, weigh in.

HERMAN: Dr. Bethany, who I think is wonderful, is wrong. These are not discussions between the mother and the press or anybody. These are short bullet statements that she`s making. And the reason she uses the word "grieving," Nancy -- maybe she`s watched your show a few times and seen Marc Klaas on there talk about when a child is missing 24 to 48 hours, that`s the most critical time, and the majority of them are dead after that period of time.

So come on, let`s cut her a break. Let`s get some evidence here in this case. Let`s see where this investigation leads before you pin it all on this mother.

GRACE: OK, let`s hear you -- go ahead, Sue.

MOSS: Oh, you`ve got to be kidding me! When your child is missing, you stand and scream as loud as you can, Help me get my child back! Pictures everywhere! All you want to do is engage the media to try to get your child`s face on every single television screen!

I mean, this woman was sitting there passed out drunk when she has three children to take care of? There`s something really odd about this! I mean, she was so drunk, who knows, maybe she`ll even blame Ray Kronk!

GRACE: OK, let`s go to C.W. Jensen, retired Portland, Oregon, police captain. C.W., I`ve told you about the -- three of the most -- the worst minutes of any life, when I lost John David in a Toys `R Us and screamed at the top of my lungs! And I kept screaming until I could find him. Weigh in, Jensen.

C.W. JENSEN, RETIRED PORTLAND POLICE CAPTAIN: Nancy, you did what every good mother does. You panicked. Remember this case. And I`ll tell you what. I investigated cases like this where children were gone. The mothers and fathers would go crazy. And this doesn`t smell right to me at all.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a pond about a mile-and-a-half away from baby Lisa`s house.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The search for the missing 10-month-old snatched from her own crib.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s the lake in the area they`re looking at.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police in boats are scouring this lake.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is a homicide investigation.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She admits that she was drinking, that she had a lot to drink, that she passed out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was this an abduction with the parents completely uninvolved, or is the abductor somehow associated with the parents?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When you search a lake, it is a homicide investigation.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is it true that you`re getting paid to avoid local reporters?

BRADLEY: Not at all.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Then why won`t you talk to us?

BRADLEY: Because we`re grieving.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You are seeing baby Lisa`s mom turn away from the media and say that she is grieving. You know who the gold standard is, is Marc Klaas. His little girl, Polly, went missing from her bedroom. I believe she was having a little spend-the-night sleeping party, and nobody could believe that the family didn`t have anything to do with it.

He insisted that he be questioned. He insisted that cops take him in, take his fingerprints, search his car, search his place, the whole shebang, so they could move off him and look for the real perpetrator, which they did. And he was convicted. We`re not really seeing that here.

Joining me right now, "People" magazine writer, highly respected in his field, Steve Helling. Steve Helling, what do you make of it?

STEVE HELLING, "PEOPLE" (via telephone): Well, you know, I hesitate to rest a judgment on the family because the word "grieving" basically means to cause to be made, you know, sorrowful in some way. So I don`t know that that means that she knows that baby Lisa`s dead or anything like that.

I think that it probably wasn`t the best phrase to use, the best words to use, but none of us know how we would react in a situation like this. So -- and we`ve seen cases before where we all point the finger at the parents, then come to find out some sociopath from across the street came in. So I`m just hoping that this has a happy ending, and really hoping that the parents aren`t involved.

GRACE: You know what, Steve Helling? You`re right. It`s not probable statistically, but it is possible. And the fact that -- and I spoke to one of the people out of the neighborhood, Steve Helling, that saw a man in the neighborhood that evening, they believe, that was carrying a baby around midnight. And that`s certainly thrown a wrench in the investigation.

On the other hand, to Pat Brown, criminal profiler, author of "The Profiler," you`ve got a cadaver dog hitting on the carpet in Mommy`s bedroom. And to this day, this far into it, I still don`t know the last person that saw the baby alive, other than the mother.

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: That`s correct. And it`s not probable, in most of these cases, that the baby was kidnapped. And it`s not probable in this case because the evidence says it isn`t. Mommy isn`t looking. She is grieving. And that`s weird because the only type of children that usually survive these cases are babies because they`re wanted.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Parents refusing to speak to the media.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Is it true that you`re getting paid to avoid local reporters?

DEBORAH BRADLEY, MOTHER OF MISSING 10-MONTH-OLD BABY LISA IRWIN: Not at all.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Every day the police tell us they need to interview them.

MARC KLAAS, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION: You need to be the cheerleader for your own missing child. There is no better advocate.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Baby Lisa`s brothers just 6 and 8 years old.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Their involvement in this investigation is critical.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re still full steam ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To gather information about what`s going on in the home.

GRACE: Cops also take the boys` saliva. Their spit. To compare to mystery DNA.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: On the corner of the building there, you can clearly see the white security camera.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The baby appears not to have anything on but a diaper.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How many people are walking around with babies at 4:00 in the morning.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The investigation is focused on finding that baby.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Time is so crucial here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are live and taking your calls. For those of you just joining us, police honed it, converged on a lake less than two miles from the parents` home. Cadaver dogs surround the lake. Even taking to the water by boat.

Everyone, we are taking your calls. Very quickly to Mike Craig, K-9 instructor and hunter, president of Public Safety Dogs, Inc., joining us out of Burlington, North Carolina.

Mike, explain to me, and explain to the viewers, about how cadaver dogs can smell a dead body through water.

MIKE CRAIG, K-9 INSTRUCTOR AND HANDLER, PRESIDENT, PUBLIC SAFETY DOGS, INC.: Well, what happens is that over a period, depending on the water temperature, the body builds up gas, and the gas starts to bubble out of the body and float to the surface. Once it breaks the surface, that`s what the dogs are smelling.

GRACE: And a lot of people don`t understand dogs can smell, for instance, accelerant when you`re looking at an arson, and then the arsonist flooded the scene. They can smell accelerant under water, they can smell dope under water, they can smell dead bodies, human remains under water. Bloodhounds can track a live person through water. They certainly can today.

Cadaver dogs and police converge on a lake less than two miles from baby Lisa`s home. And the dogs actually take to the water by boat to determine whether baby Lisa is in that water.

Out to the lines. Kaye in North Carolina. Hi, Kaye, what`s your question?

KAYE, CALLER FROM NORTH CAROLINA: Hi, Nancy. The witnesses who came and saying they saw a man carrying a near-naked baby in the middle of the night. Could any of them tell if this baby was alive? And does this father have an airtight alibi? Since one of the eyewitnesses` descriptions kind of implicated him.

GRACE: You know, it`s interesting, Kaye in North Carolina, the father does have -- to my understanding -- an airtight alibi to the extent that cops only did a poly on mommy, they were not even interested in doing a poly on daddy. They`ve got him apparently working through the night, until around 4:00 a.m. at this Starbucks opening or repairing a local Starbucks, and he was doing electric work there. It`s a second job.

So I understand -- my understanding is that he`s in the clear. What I don`t get, Kaye in North Carolina, is who saw the baby last alive other than mommy? Can somebody clear that up for me?

Ellie Jostad, I mean how do I know, nobody`s seen the baby for two days? Who can -- who can place the baby alive other than the mother?

ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE CHIEF EDITORIAL PRODUCER: Right, Nancy. Well, I have seen reports that the neighbor who -- there may have been a neighbor over at one point in the evening watching the children while the mom was at the grocery store with her brother buying the box of wine.

But police have not confirmed with us who outside of the family saw this child last. And the family as you know isn`t talking, so we don`t have an answer from them about that.

GRACE: Which right there, Pat Brown, when she said the family`s not talking -- weigh in, Pat.

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER, AUTHOR OF "THE PROFILER": Yes, I would like the family -- with a lawyer -- to clear up all these problems that are giving them a very bad reputation in the public eye. I mean, these questions, was the father really at work all day long.

Well, we`ve heard that he does have an alibi. But if I was that man I`d step out and say, look, the reason they`re not looking at me is because there was a video camera on me eight hours straight, I worked with a guy that was there. I never left the premises.

But we have all these open-ended questions which is keeping us from looking for a baby. And I want to point out one more time, children, when they`re taken, are taken usually for sexual purposes. They are dead within 48 hours, like Marc Klaas says. Babies are not. They`re taken by people who want them.

Why does the mommy not think that baby is out there? Why is she grieving? Why are the people look -- why are the police looking for a body?

GRACE: Joining me right now is a special guest, Gil Abeyta, who met with baby Lisa`s parents. Gil`s son, missing for 25 years. Gil, once hauled in by police, questioned about the missing son, cleared, obviously, and actually traveled to go help in the search for baby Lisa.

Gil, thank you for being with us.

GIL ABEYTA, MET WITH BABY LISA`S PARENTS, SON HAS BEEN MISSING FOR 25 YEARS: Well, thank you for the invitation.

GRACE: Gil, you have been in a similar spot, as baby Lisa`s parents, and you travel. We`re showing a shot of your son when he went missing, at an age-progression right now to 23. You traveled all the way to help the parents. What happened when you got to baby Lisa`s home?

ABEYTA: Let me -- first of all, I`m not hearing you real well, but let me respond to you and what I wanted to say to make sure that I say it. The advantage I have, over all of you coming up with possibilities, and mother and father and all this kind of stuff, I`m a victim.

I went through exactly what they went through for a long time. I`m not guilty, I`m still here talking to you. And I came purposely to talk to the victims, to see exactly what kind of condition they`re in, so that we can help them. Not to hurt them.

And what I saw, and I only met with them for about a half hour, was I saw that they were in very, very bad condition. Incapable, I say incapable of being able to respond intelligently to what`s going on.

Also the fact that they were -- that they brought in people that just forced themselves into a private eye, an attorney, and they told them not to talk, not to do anything. They are scared, like scared rabbits in a cage. They don`t know what to do. They don`t -- what`s going to happen, if the pressure continues, they`re going to beat up so bad, someone is going to commit suicide.

GRACE: Well, you know what, Gil, we certainly do not want that.

You are seeing shots of Gil`s baby that was kidnapped -- kidnapped and now baby Lisa.

Gil, when you first went to meet with baby Lisa`s parents, what happened?

ABEYTA: Could you say that just a little bit louder? I`m in a --

GRACE: Sure. When you first went to meet with baby Lisa`s parents, Gil, what happened?

ABEYTA: Well, I saved them to the last. I`ve been here over three weeks. And I usually -- I usually go into the mother and father. But I gathered all the information around them. I met with some of the family members. I listened to all the reports. And then finally I went in there.

I went -- first, I went into -- and they didn`t recognize me and I wasn`t able to get into the house. The second time that I went in there, I was with a number of people, and there was just too much running around. I didn`t have the right -- right conditions to be able to sit down and talk to them, and help them and do whatever I could.

They were -- they were receptive, but they were not what I expected. I wanted to get more information, but it wasn`t the right opportunity. So we left it open. I said I want you to think about --

GRACE: What do you mean by that? I`d like for you to be clear, Gil. You said that it was not what you expected. What do you mean by that?

ABEYTA: Well, I expected that we would sit down, with nobody around, and be able to review some of the problems that are going on within their - - within their family. I didn`t have that opportunity. I actually was standing up every time that I was talking to them because there was other people there. And it`s just not the right time.

It was not the right conditions to be able to sit down and go over it. I wanted more. And so I said, I will be back when you want me, if you want me. I`m not here to force myself to you. And I said, but we`ve got to go over everything. I did say to them that, you`re making a few mistakes. And I realize they may not even be your problem. But you have to talk to the media.

GRACE: What mistake? Yes.

Everyone, with me is Gil Abeyta, his child went missing. He tried to meet with the Irwin family.

Out to the lines, Jonnie in California. Hi, Jonnie, what`s your question?

JONNIE, CALLER FROM CALIFORNIA: Hi, Nancy, how are you doing tonight?

GRACE: I`m good, dear.

JONNIE: I have two questions. And one I think was answered. I`ve been going over this grieving word she`s been using, too, as well. It just didn`t sound right to use the word grieve. But I`ve heard a lot. So it`s possible she could be grieving.

My second question is, I`m curious about the window and the door situation. I remember them saying the window was open, the front door was unlocked when the dad came home. Why would anybody need to go through the window when the front door was unlocked?

GRACE: You know, Jim Spellman is standing there outside the Irwin home. I think that the theory is the perp would have gone through that front window, gotten the baby and then come out the front door.

Do I have Spellman? There he is. Let`s take him in full, please, so we can see not only him but the house beside him.

Weigh in, Jim Spellman.

JIM SPELLMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT, ON THE SCENE OUTSIDE BABY LISA`S HOME: That`s the theory, that someone went in that window, it`s very difficult. It`s about four feet high and it`s wide open, no trees or shrubs in the way. It`s one of the most visible windows on this whole bloc. And then they would have come out after having turned the lights on, come out the front door. That seems to be the theory anyway.

GRACE: And Jim, tell me about the window in baby Lisa`s bedroom. How high up off the ground is it?

SPELLMAN: Well, the window we`re talking about is into a computer room, then baby Lisa`s window. So baby Lisa`s window is actually quite high up off of the ground. It`s in a backyard. The yard`s sloped down. So that would be high.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The investigation is focused on finding that baby.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Time is so crucial here.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Trying to find baby Lisa.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can`t take anyone off the table as a possible suspect.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A new search is now under way.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Fresh sets of eyes on these searches. New personnel, new investigative tools.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police in boats are scouring this lake.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: They`re out there with cadaver dogs.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Just a short drive from baby Lisa`s home.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: They can even -- their handlers tell me detect scents of a deceased person in that water.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: New twists and turns out of Missouri.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A lot of questions, frankly, about the tactics the family is taking in this investigation.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Hoping to hear from the parents` attorney speaking today. That didn`t happen. Media was supposed to get inside the home. That didn`t happen today.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: They`re canceling all that. They were too tired.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: And a search is now under way for Lisa Irwin, the Kansas City baby who vanished from her crib more than three weeks ago now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. We are live and taking your calls.

Back to Jim Spellman, CNN correspondent joining us outside the Irwin home.

I understand that cops seized rolls of tape from the home? Why?

SPELLMAN: We`re not sure why they took the rolls of tape. They also took some baby clothes, a comforter. We know that from the affidavit that they have to file after they do that. But we don`t know why they`re being close-lipped. They hope, though, that the big -- the next real advancement in this case will be tomorrow when they can interview the boys again.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Annette in Washington state. Hi, Annette. What`s your question?

ANNETTE, CALLER FROM WASHINGTON: Hi, Nancy. I just want to say I absolutely love your show and you look fantastic since you`ve done "Dancing with the Stars."

GRACE: You know what? Did you know I`ve lost 21 pounds?

ANNETTE: Yes, I can tell. I need to take --

GRACE: I`m too tired to eat, diet. What`s your question, love?

ANNETTE: Well, I was curious about -- somebody kind of brought it up tonight, but I was curious about when baby Lisa`s mom was in the store buying the box of wine, the gentleman that was with her. Someone tonight said that was --

GRACE: Yes, it turned out to be her brother. Brother, Annette.

Is Annette still there, Liz?

Annette, that was her brother.

ANNETTE: OK. Have they questioned him? Or took a lie detector on him since everybody`s seeing a sighting of a gentleman?

GRACE: Good question. Good question, Annette in Washington state.

Steve Helling, what more did they glean from the brother? I`m still trying to find out where the baby was. I`m guessing the father may have been at home since he was working the night shift that night when she was at the store buying that big box of wine with her brother.

But can you tell me, Steve, who else saw the baby last? Ellie Jostad told me a neighbor may have. And what did the brother have to add?

STEVE HELLING, STAFF WRITER, PEOPLE MAGAZINE: Well, there are a lot of may-haves in this one. We`re not exactly sure who the last person to see baby Lisa was. It is true that the father was at home while mom was out buying the wine and the baby food and all that. So we do know that. But we don`t really -- everything`s kind of a blur after dad went to work. Probably because, you know, mom had been drinking. And so things are up in the air.

GRACE: Yes.

HELLING: We don`t know what else, you know, the brother has said. And the police are kind of keeping that close to the chest right now.

GRACE: Back to the lawyers. Sue Moss, New York, Richard Herman, normally out of New York, and Vegas, Raymond Giudice joining us out of Atlanta.

Sue Moss, what happened today? The parents had agreed to open up the home, have a tour for the press, maybe speak. At the last minute everything got canceled.

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY & CHILD ADVOCATE: And you`ve got to understand, there has to be a reason why. What you want to do in an investigation like this is to bring one of those pool cameras into the house, let the story become alive for all the people so that they can continue the search.

GRACE: What about it, Raymond?

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think the lawyers missed an opportunity to put out some of these questions that still are burning, that were raised tonight. I think a lot of them are questions that shouldn`t be raised and should have been put to bed and move on.

GRACE: Put Ray back up.

You know, Ray, listen, you were a prosecutor before you were a defense attorney way back when. Here`s the deal. The parents have to know that these questions are impeding the investigation. If somebody else took the baby, they need to go ahead and sit down with the cops, separately.

You know, mommy won`t talk to cops without daddy there holding her hand. And it`s just like Marc Klaas always says, he offered himself up, and said, go ahead, question me, so you can get off me and look for my child.

GIUDICE: Well, we can agree in spirit that they have counsel. This was a good opportunity for counsel to start answering these questions. There may be other opportunities in the future to answer the questions that you and Miss Marshall have raised tonight. So I do agree with you on that.

We may disagree on the separate questioning and other things. But I do think counsel missed a good opportunity today.

GRACE: Yes. And Richard, he`s right. In fact, another thing they could have done is have their lawyer, their local counsel do that walk- through. They`re the ones that offered it up to the press. Said, hey, come look at the house. And even if the lawyer would answer the questions and say, look, the daddy was at the night shift, there are witnesses there, cops didn`t want to give him a polygraph, mommy did or didn`t flunk the polygraph.

This is -- you know, all of these questions could be answered by the lawyer. None of that would be held against them. That couldn`t even be brought up at trial if they took the stand, if they ever went to trial.

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You`re right, Nancy. But I`m going to respectfully disagree with some of my colleagues here tonight. I don`t think they owed the media or the press any right to walk through that house or do anything. And Joe Tacopina is the attorney in town representing them now. He`s a colleague of mine from New York. He`s been around the block. He`s very competent.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Yes, well, you know, Richard --

HERMAN: The only people they have to talk to are the police.

GRACE: You know, you`re wrong at the get-go, Richard.

HERMAN: No, I`m not.

GRACE: Because -- you`re wrong at the get-go.

HERMAN: They owe it to the police, not to the public.

GRACE: And I`ll tell you why. No, they don`t. They don`t. But they offered it up.

HERMAN: A mistake. GRACE: And then --

HERMAN: A mistake.

GRACE: -- just before everybody`s going to go in there and go hey, let`s get some questions answered, where you could measure the window off the ground, where you could see the walking trail, where you could measure this and that, and see for yourself, it was all canceled.

HERMAN: That`s for the police.

GRACE: To Bethany Marshall, weigh in.

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Well, I think one of the most important things you do in a forensic psychological examination like with baby Lisa`s mom is you talk to the mom and you see whether or not she has basic empathy for the child.

Does she say well, today was her 11-month birthday, or she used to play with this little toy, or this was her favorite blanket. If the mother does not have empathy towards the child, that is a bad sign, and with this tape you`re rolling, she sounds hostile towards the interviewer rather than empathetic about her child.

GRACE: To Ellie Jostad, what more can you tell me? So much is happening right now I know around that gas station where you see a guy emerge early in the morning around 2:00 a.m., that whole area has been searched.

JOSTAD: Right.

GRACE: I wonder if they have clarified that video. That surveillance video. Because I really couldn`t make it out that well.

JOSTAD: Well, we do know that law enforcement and the FBI have reviewed that tape. Unknown, though, if they`ve been able to enhance it, if they`ve been able to tell the gender of that person, get a general description of them, whether or not that person looks like the people in the neighborhood saw.

GRACE: Breaking now. Cadaver dogs -- breaking now, cadaver dogs and cops surrounding a local lake less than a mile away from mommy and daddy`s home.

Has baby Lisa been thrown in the lake? That`s what cops are investigating.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: So who is Deborah Bradley?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She is like all of us.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST: Cops want to interview these parents separately.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are live, and taking your calls. Out to John in New Hampshire. Hi, John. What`s your question?

JOHN, CALLER FROM NEW HAMPSHIRE: Hi, Nancy, great job on "Dancing with the Stars" first of all. You go, girl.

GRACE: Thank you.

JOHN: And my theory is it had to be the mother or someone she knows. Because you said last night that they took all the cell phones in the house. And if it was a stranger, they`re not going to know how many cell phones are in the house, where they`re at in the house and they`re not going to spend all that time to look for cell phones. That`s ridiculous.

GRACE: You know what, that`s a good question. What about it, Steve Helling? Do we know if the cell phones were all in one place and charging, or something like that?

HELLING: That`s another thing we don`t know. We hear that they were on the counters but we don`t know if they were on the same counter or anything like that. You know that`s one -- yet another one of the mysteries on this case.

GRACE: Steve Helling, writer with "People" magazine.

Let`s stop and remember Army Captain Daniel Eggers, 28, (INAUDIBLE), Florida, on a second tour. Killed Afghanistan. A Green Beret, awarded two Bronze Stars, a Purple Heart. Comes from a military family. His grandfather fought in World War II. Great grand was Teddy Roosevelt`s Rough Riders.

Leaves behind grieving parents Margaret and William, a Vietnam vet, two brothers, four sisters, wife, Army Major Rebecca Eggers, sons John and William.

Daniel Eggers, American hero.

I want to thank my guests. But my biggest thank you is to you for being with us.

I actually have two children with me here -- Matt, help me lift up John David, please.

Here to say good night to you. We wore our Halloween shirts to playschool today.

Everybody -- good-bye. Until tomorrow night. 8:00 sharp Eastern.

Good night, friend.

END