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NANCY GRACE

George and Cindy Anthony Break Their Silence on "Dr. Phil"

Aired September 13, 2011 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Orlando. After tot mom, Casey Anthony, takes in the sand and the surf in Mexico the past few weeks, her parents, George and Cindy Anthony, appear on TV to explain away the death and the disposal of their 2-year-old granddaughter, Caylee, thrown away like trash in a swampy dump.

Bombshell tonight. Finally revealed, grandparents George and Cindy divulge what they say really happened. And buckle your seatbelts, it`s a shocker. They claim tot mom suffers from either post-partum schizophrenia, a brain tumor, or a grand mal seizure disorder to explain 2-year-old Caylee`s death. This even after tot mom`s CAT scan reveals no such thing.

While grandmother Cindy still insists she, Cindy, is responsible for damning computer searches on tot mom`s computer, she also says she also hopes tot mom will marry and have more children. Eek!

Tonight, inside the minds of grandparents George and Cindy Anthony on the murder of their 2-year-old little Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: After Caylee was born is when I started to see changes in Casey.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY`S FATHER: I didn`t believe two thirds of the things she was telling me.

CINDY ANTHONY: Looking back now, I`m almost wondering if she didn`t develop post-partum schizophrenia or some type of issue after her pregnancy, a hormonal type of illness. She had a seizure in November of 2007. A year-and-a-half later, she has another grand mal seizure. So again, what is triggering it? Is it a hormonal response? None of those behaviors were exhibited prior to her pregnancy.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I thought, OK, she`s keeping her away from Cindy.

CINDY ANTHONY: I`m not making excuses for her. I want to find out what`s wrong with Casey. I know that there`s something wrong. Casey had started talking...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. After tot mom, Casey Anthony, takes in the sand and the surf in Mexico the past few weeks, her parents, George and Cindy Anthony, appear on TV to explain away the death and the disposal of their 2-year-old granddaughter, Caylee. Finally revealed, grandparents George and Cindy divulge what they say really happened. And buckle your seatbelts, it`s a shocker.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: I heard her telling Lee that Zanny had kidnapped Caylee and she hadn`t seen Caylee for 31 days.

GEORGE ANTHONY: The last one I saw Caylee with was Casey.

CINDY ANTHONY: There was never any time that Casey was an unfit mother. She was an awesome mother.

GEORGE ANTHONY: To me, in my mind, that one and one adds up to two.

CINDY ANTHONY: My worst nightmare had just unfolded right in front of me.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Was I taken for a fool? Absolutely.

CINDY ANTHONY: People don`t know she had a grand mal seizure after she came home for the very first time.

GEORGE ANTHONY: There`s something that Cindy and I don`t agree with.

CINDY ANTHONY: Does she have a brain tumor? Were the seizures caused by stress? I don`t know. I don`t know if she had a seizure that day and blacked out. I don`t know what happened, and that`s what I want to find out down the road. And I`m not making justifications for that, but there`s a cause for this. You don`t just have a grand mal seizure.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You`re seeing video of Dr. Phil`s interview with grandparents George and Cindy Anthony from CBS. We are taking your calls. George and Cindy Anthony take to the airwaves, finally revealing what they say really happened to explain away the death and disappearance of their granddaughter, little Caylee.

And right at the outset, let me just say that having met George and Cindy Anthony, I found them to be two of the warmest people I`ve ever met, who truly and deeply love Caylee, their granddaughter, to this very day.

Out to Jean Casarez. A lot of what they said, Jean, extremely surprising in their attempts to rationalize all of this -- for instance, that tot mom has a brain tumor. She had a CAT scan after one of her first seizures and it revealed absolutely none of this!

JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": Cindy says that she believes Casey is a victim in all that. That is what she said. That`s what she believes. It`s based on these medical conditions issues. But 2007 is what she`s talking about. Casey went into the hospital because of a seizure, quote, unquote. Jesse Grund she was with at the time. She was there for three days. They didn`t find anything.

GRACE: But what I don`t understand -- I`m going to go to Dr. Patricia Saunders on this. Our whole panel is taking your calls. Dr. Saunders, another one of the explanations that George and Cindy have is "post-partum schizophrenia." Now, I`m just a lawyer, all right? I`m a JD. You`re the MD. (SIC) You`re the shrink. So is that post-partum depression plus schizophrenia equals post-partum schizophrenia? I`ve never heard of that before.

PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, because there is no such thing. I think Cindy was probably talking about post-partum psychosis, which is very, very rare. Less than 1 percent of women have it. And when they have it, it doesn`t just last for a day or two. You cannot miss it. People are floridly psychotic, and it lasts for months.

GRACE: Whoa! Whoa! They`re what? They`re floridly psychotic? What`s that?

SAUNDERS: That means that they hear voices, they see things, they hear the voice of God commanding them to do things.

GRACE: You know, Dr. Pat, you know I like you. But don`t throw any of those terms out there at me without explaining it to me. What is "floridly psychotic?"

SAUNDERS: It means that she`d be crazy as a bedbug. Nobody could miss it. And it would last for weeks, if not months. She`d have to be hospitalized.

GRACE: OK, let me tell you something, Dr. Saunders. You know, having prosecuted felonies of the ilk of murder, rape, child molestation, arson for so many years, I thought that I knew insanity when I saw it. For instance, I get an inmate that would, for instance, poop, defecate at the lunchroom, and then smear it on the wall of the jail. You know, to me, that`s crazy. Or I had one inmate, one defendant that tried to pull his own eyes out of his head. I guess that`s what you`re saying is floridly psychotic? Is that a layman`s description?

SAUNDERS: Yes.

GRACE: OK, now I get it. To Steve Helling, staff writer, "People" magazine, author of "Outrage: The Casey Anthony Story" -- and I for one can vouch that Helling was in court every single day. What do you make of what George and Cindy have told Dr. Phil?

STEVE HELLING, "PEOPLE" MAGAZINE, AUTHOR, "OUTRAGE": You know, we`ve heard different stories for the past three years, and now we`re hearing hear brain tumors and grand mal seizures and -- and if any of that were true, it would have come up -- you were there, Nancy. It would have come up in the first day of trial, and it never did. So I just can`t believe that any of it`s true.

GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Jackie in Kentucky. Hi, Jackie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, love?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just want to make a comment and just let you know that I have been watching you and trying to get in touch with you for years. The question is, like your last guest said, why didn`t any of this come up during the trial, during the -- any of it? I just feel like they`re just continuing the lie that they have convinced themselves is the truth.

GRACE: Well, you know, Jackie in Kentucky, do you have children?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. I have a lot of nieces and nephews that I`m...

GRACE: Well, then you know what I mean, what I`m about to say. When your children or your beloved nieces and nephews do something, I will do a back bend. I`m the worst to try to explain away what just happened, all right. Lucy melts down every day in a really bad, nasty way around 2:30, and I explain it away by saying she needs a snack, OK? And I know that I`m doing it, and I keep doing it.

Of course, committing murder is a far cry from a snack meltdown. But what I`m saying is, do you think, Jackie in Kentucky, that they are trying to rationalize something that would drive them stark, raving mad if they really had to put their mind around it and take it in, that their daughter murdered their granddaughter, Jackie in Kentucky?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, like I was saying -- I mean, I agree, but I don`t think that this is the avenue they should take because they need to be truthful and accept it and then they would be able to move on.

GRACE: Well, that`s a point. That`s a point. When people suffer great, great, devastating grief...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Exactly.

GRACE: ... there comes a point -- you know, there`s those stages of healing, and one of those stages is acceptance. That`s a good point.

We are taking your calls. Out to Brandi. Brandi -- are you joining me from Texas, Brandi? Indiana. Hi, Brandi in Indiana. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I was just wondering, you know, since she`s made up all these fake people and these fake -- all these lies, don`t people think she`s capable of faking a seizure or pretending to be sick?

GRACE: That`s a good one. I happen to know that our chief editorial producer, Ellie Jostad, believes at least one of these seizures was for real, as described by Jesse Grund. What about it, Ellie?

ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes. Well, the cops asked Jesse Grund this very question. He said that when they were engaged back before Caylee was -- or went missing, Casey had this big seizure and was hospitalized. The cops asked him, Do you think she could have been faking it? And he said she was foaming at the mouth, her lips were blue, things he didn`t believe she could have faked.

GRACE: I find it very hard to believe that Jesse Grund made that up. But Ellie, is that the only seizure that can be documented that she ever had?

JOSTAD: Well, according to Cindy Anthony, she had two other seizures, one in, I believe, August or September of 2008, when she was home on bail. And she says that Casey had a third seizure when she was in jail. But we don`t have other documentation to back that up. It`s just Cindy`s word.

GRACE: Well, wait a minute. Whoa, whoa, whoa! Back it up! Ellie, both of those that you just told me about are post-murder, all right?

JOSTAD: Right.

GRACE: So that would absolutely no impact on the scenario that seizures were responsible for Caylee`s death. There`s only one documented seizure prior to Caylee`s death.

JOSTAD: Well, and Dr. Phil thought the exact same thing, and he kept asking Cindy, Well, didn`t she get tests? She was in the hospital. Didn`t they do a CAT scan, an MRI? And she said yes, and they didn`t find anything, but she could have developed something later.

GRACE: To Marc Klaas, president and founder, Klaas Kids Foundation, joining us out of San Francisco. Marc, what do you make of what George and Cindy have explained away as reasoning behind Caylee`s death?

MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: Well, I think you were exactly right. I mean, parents will go to any lengths to excuse and justify the actions of their children. And it ultimately creates sort of a co- dependence. They feed -- they feed on each other, and you end up getting this incredibly toxic mix that you have in the Anthony household, where she behaves incredibly badly and the parents find reasons to excuse and justify it.

But in the end, there`s really nothing that can excuse and justify the things that have gone on in this family, particularly the death of little Caylee, for which we all have to remember no one has ever been held accountable.

GRACE: You know, Dr. Saunders, where would it leave George and Cindy if they had to accept the truth of the murder?

SAUNDERS: It might just really destroy them. I don`t think that they can accept that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: My daughter`s been missing for the last 31 days. I know (INAUDIBLE) I tried to contact her. I actually received a phone call today, now from a number that is no longer in service. I did get to speak to my daughter for about a moment, about a minute.

CINDY ANTHONY: I didn`t know she was lying for two years about the job. I didn`t know she was lying about Zanny. So hindsight, yes, but not during those 31 days.

George would never have put us through those six months of not knowing where Caylee was if he knew where Caylee was.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I confronted Casey when things didn`t add up in my mind. But then again, if I would have came across heavy-handedly or coming across as trying to interrogate my daughter, I probably would have pushed her further and further away from me. Was I taken for a fool? Absolutely.

PHIL MCGRAW, HOST, "DR. PHIL": What was it like when she came home?

GEORGE ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE) first thing (INAUDIBLE) I wanted to hug her. I was very, very tough on my daughter. I wanted answers. I wanted to know where Caylee was at. It started out being a nice, general conversation, and all of a sudden, it turned -- I turned a little belligerent with my daughter. I screamed, hollered at her to tell me what was going on, we could fix this. And Casey just says, Dad, Zanny took her. She has her. And I said, Well, where`s she at? Let`s go get her.

MCGRAW: Were you suspicious of her at that point?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Oh, I didn`t believe two thirds of the things she was telling me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You are seeing video of Dr. Phil`s interview with George and Cindy Anthony from CBS.

Back to Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session." What prompted George and Cindy to reveal what they believe caused Caylee`s death, that being schizophrenia, grand mal seizures or a brain tumor of tot mom, Casey Anthony?

CASAREZ: I think they wanted that out there. But I really see George and Cindy on divergent paths. I see Cindy wanting this out there, Cindy believing this. I don`t see George believing this. I watched very closely for the hour. I think he accepts that Casey is responsible for her daughter`s death.

GRACE: To Drew Kesse, father of missing Jennifer Kesse that we have covered many times here. And he is angry about the Anthonys` interview on ``Dr. Phil.`` Drew, thank you for being with us. Why are you angry?

DREW KESSE, FATHER OF MISSING JENNIFER KESSE: I guess it`s hard to be in a position such as myself, having a daughter missing through abduction for over five-and-a-half years, and to be in the same city as this was happening for the last three-plus years, and really, to hear and honestly not be a part of it, but to really know so much about it.

You know, one thing I have to say, Nancy, is George said he got a little belligerent with his daughter. I will tell you that if that was my daughter or my son, only one person would have come out of the room, or two people would have come out of the room and one would have gone directly to jail. It`s the hardest thing you have to do, but -- you hold off because you don`t want to get your daughter mad? Come on! We`re talking about murder here.

And if you really looked at that entire interview -- you talk about a powder puff interview. It was absolutely incredible. We learned -- outside of bringing in, I think, the fifth response or excuse about Caylee, I think now we`re -- we`re not fools. I`m not a fool. And it was just -- there`s even lies told within it.

When you look at body language, you know that Cindy is lying. When she looks down and won`t look at Dr. Phil and plays with her fingers answering questions -- you know, that`s what they`re taught in the FBI. That`s a lie.

GRACE: But Drew...

KESSE: It`s just horrible, but you have to accept it. Yes?

GRACE: Drew -- but what about that is making you angry? For all I know, they`re still in mourning and having a hard time believing that their daughter did this.

KESSE: Yes. The anger that I truly have really has nothing to do with what they say, or what have you. The anger I have is the money trail that Dr. Phil is putting into their foundation that I feel is fraudulent.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCGRAW: Did it ever occur to you that, He`s hidden substantial things from me before? Could he have done it again?

CINDY ANTHONY: No, not when it came to his family as far as Casey and Caylee. George would never have put us through those six months of not knowing where Caylee was if he knew where Caylee was, because I watched his heart break every single day. And I watched him, as frantic as he was.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You`re seeing video of Dr. Phil`s interview with grandparents George and Cindy Anthony from CBS.

As we were going to break -- everybody, our whole panel is taking your calls. Drew Kesse is with us. He is the father of missing Jennifer Kesse. We`re showing you footage of her throughout this whole thing. I`m also going to give you the information for her tip line in case you have information on her disappearance. We`ve covered her story here many times.

And Drew is angry about the Anthonys` interview on ``Dr. Phil.`` Drew, what were you saying just before we went to break?

KESSE: Sure. The real problem that I have in -- I don`t know if I`d call it anger. It`s the money flow that is happening that, really, Dr. Phil is pimping his show. He is interviewing garbage. It`s another excuse, as we all know, after everything is over.

And it`s really phenomenal what Cindy just said coming out of that break -- Oh, he would never put us through this. He wouldn`t? He would put you through having two female accompaniments. He would put you through attempted suicide. He would put you through, quote, unquote "incest." But he would never put you through this? Come on, Cindy! I mean, you know, let`s -- sometimes you have to stand up...

GRACE: Now, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Are you saying -- are you responding to Cindy Anthony saying that George Anthony would never have stood by knowing that Caylee was dead, knowing where her body was disposed of, and allow Cindy to suffer so much?

KESSE: No. I would say...

GRACE: Because I believe that. I totally believe that.

KESSE: No, I...

GRACE: I absolutely do not believe that George Anthony would have stood by and let Cindy suffer in that way. And also, as to any alleged incest, that is a big crock. That did not happen.

KESSE: Sure.

GRACE: And a judge ruled that that did not happen. There was no evidence that that ever happened.

KESSE: And it also came out that Caylee Anthony was never missing, she was murdered.

GRACE: You`re right.

KESSE: Right out of the lawyer`s mouth.

GRACE: You`re absolutely right, Drew Kesse. Ellie Jostad, weigh in.

JOSTAD: Well, Nancy, George and Cindy Anthony insist that they are not going to draw salaries or get any income from their foundation, and that any money that they get from this ``Dr. Phil`` show is just going to go...

GRACE: Well, Ellie...

JOSTAD: ... to support that foundation.

GRACE: Ellie, how much money are we talking about here?

JOSTAD: Well, that is undisclosed at this point...

GRACE: Uh-oh!

JOSTAD: ... and Dr. Phil has said the money hasn`t been paid.

GRACE: Uh-oh!

JOSTAD: It would be once the foundation is opened.

GRACE: Well, if it`s not disclosed, Ellie -- if it`s not disclosed, that means it`s a lot.

JOSTAD: You could be right.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: I heard her telling Lee that Zanny had kidnapped Caylee, and that she hadn`t seen Caylee for 31 days.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: The last one I saw Caylee with was Casey.

C. ANTHONY: There was never any signs that Casey was an unfit mother. She was an awesome mother.

G. ANTHONY: To me in that mind, that one and one adds up to two.

C. ANTHONY: My worst nightmare had just unfolded right in front of me.

G. ANTHONY: Was I taken for a fool? Absolutely.

C. ANTHONY: People don`t know she had a grand mal seizure after she came home for the very first time.

G. ANTHONY: There`s some things Cindy and I don`t agree with.

C. ANTHONY: Does she have a brain tumor? Were the seizures caused by stress? I don`t know. I don`t know if she had a seizure that day and blacked out. I don`t know what happened, and that`s what I want to find out down the road. And I`m not making justifications for that, but there`s a cause for those. You don`t just have a grand mal seizure.

G. ANTHONY: The last one I saw Caylee with was Casey. We didn`t see her for all those days or all those weeks. To me, in my mind, that one and one adds up to two. She`s responsible for Caylee. That`s her daughter.

Casey and Caylee, when I saw them leave on June 16th, 2008, that`s the last time I saw them together. And Casey, again, is responsible for Caylee. No matter where she was at or what happened.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You`re seeing Dr. Phil`s interview with George and Cindy Anthony from CBS.

Thank you for being with us. We are taking your calls.

Finally revealed, and it`s a shocker. George and Cindy Anthony reveal why they believe their granddaughter, little Caylee, ended up dead and disposed off like trash in a swampy dump.

They`ve got three theories. That their daughter, tot mom Casey Anthony, had a brain tumor, grand mal seizures or postpartum schizophrenia. Somehow that gets translated into death and disposal of their granddaughter, their 2-year-old granddaughter.

Unleash the lawyers. Raymond Giudice and Randy Kessler.

You know, Ray, I never got the connection. So if she has a brain tumor, then how does that equal explaining away Caylee triple-bagged and duct-taped out in a swamp? How do two and two equal four here?

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know -- yes, well, the only way I think you could have used this in a defense is to take this medical explanation, this seizure, and add it to an accident defense. So I`m walking down the staircase with my toddler when I have a seizure. I tumble down the staircase. She breaks her neck and dies. I freak out. I panic. I duct tape her mouth and bury her in a trash bag.

I don`t think it`s a great defense, but I think that was the only possible use for this now medical excuse.

GRACE: So you mean these three medical excuses.

GIUDICE: Yes. Yes, medical excuses, medical excuses, correct.

GRACE: OK. And isn`t the fact that there are so many medical excuses, isn`t that disturbing to you just a little bit, Ray Giudice?

GIUDICE: Well --

GRACE: I mean I know you were a defense lawyer, and a lot of times you just throw it all out and see what sticks, but three different and entirely conflicting medical scenarios?

GIUDICE: Well, that`s right. And it would depend on the lawyer in charge. Some lawyers like a pinpoint best argument one shot. Some lawyers, and I think the lawyers in this case, use buckshot, let`s spread it out a wide pattern and see what stuck. It did stick, it did work, but that`s a point of who`s trying the case.

GRACE: OK. What about it, Randy Kessler?

RANDY KESSLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Number one, you can`t argue with the job Jose Baez did. He got her an acquittal. No one --

GRACE: Is that what I asked you? I don`t think that is what I asked you.

KESSLER: Well, you asked how we would use that. The truth is, the reason it wasn`t really relied on is the problem that the jury would have is the same problem you`re having and we`re all having with it.

You know the state didn`t prosecute her for having an accident and then covering it up. The prosecute her for murder one. Maybe they should have prosecuted her for an accident and then covering it up and child abuse and child neglect. They didn`t.

GRACE: Put him up, please.

Kessler, did you ever think -- I don`t see him. I`m asking -- there he is.

Kessler, did you ever think the reason they did not use this defense at trial is because it`s not true? Because there`s only one alleged seizure that can be documented in all of tot mom Casey Anthony`s history prior to Caylee`s death?

KESSLER: The jury didn`t believe she murdered her daughter. The jury might have believed that she didn`t --

GRACE: I did not ask you to rehash the not guilty verdict. We all know that. Can you please try to get back in the middle of the road, get in the car first, then put on your seat belt and get back in the middle of the road and try to answer that question, Kessler?

KESSLER: Yes. You`re right. They didn`t prosecute her on that, and they lost the case.

GRACE: Yes. I asked you why they didn`t use that defense at trial, but since you don`t want to answer that question --

KESSLER: No, no, you said --

GRACE: -- I`ll go to CW Jensen, retired Portland Police captain.

CW, have you ever in all your years as police captain seen a child`s death as a result of a mom`s seizure?

CW JENSEN, RETIRED PORTLAND POLICE CAPTAIN: No, I haven`t. And I think it`s important for everybody to realize that has followed this case through your show that when you do a homicide investigation, they`re often complicated, but the one thing that`s often very visible is what could the motive be?

So as you look at this case, it`s not a seizure. It`s not schizophrenia. It`s a young woman that didn`t want to care for a darling little girl, and got rid of her and then didn`t even report her missing for a month. It`s clear she`s guilty.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Andrea in Florida. Hi, Andrea. What`s your question?

ANDREA, CALLER FROM FLORIDA: Well, I was just wondering, like, I hear this whole thing about a seizure and the tumor, and does anyone know like where the supposed tumor would be? Like obviously it`s a brain tumor, but do you know where in the brain?

GRACE: OK. This is what I understand. That it was the allegation of a brain tumor, but to Steve Helling, writer for "People" magazine, author of "Outrage: The Casey Anthony Story," which is out today.

Steve, where in the brain was the tumor supposed to exist? And also didn`t she have a CAT scan recently? And there was nothing there. There`s not a brain tumor.

STEVE HELLING, STAFF WRITER, PEOPLE MAGAZINE, AUTHOR OF "OUTRAGE: THE CASEY ANTHONY STORY": Well, yes. I mean where was the brain tumor? Make up a place. It`s fine. Choose a place that you want to say it was. I mean the bottom line is, you know, you have Drew Kesse on the show whose story has been consistent for five years.

This -- you know, next week it`s not going to be a brain tumor. It`s going to be something else, Nancy. It just doesn`t make any sense.

GRACE: Well, I guess, you know, bottom line, to Dr. Jennifer Shu, pediatrician, author of "Baby and Child Health."

Dr. Shu, when you run a CAT scan, a brain scan, isn`t that a same thing -- a brain CAT scan is a brain scan?

DR. JENNIFER SHU, PEDIATRICIAN, AUTHOR OF "BABY AND CHILD HEALTH": Right. That`s one type of brain can.

GRACE: Well, wouldn`t a tumor show up?

SHU: It would absolutely show up, and especially if it`s big enough or, you know, significant enough to cause behavior changes like this. It would show up.

But Nancy, there are plenty of people who have seizures, who have schizophrenia, who have brain tumors that don`t kill their kids, who don`t wait 31 days to report them missing. You know even though these medical explanations may be possible, they`re highly unlikely.

GRACE: But, Dr. Shu, I mean, how would having a brain tumor, which she doesn`t have because they got a CAT scan, doesn`t show up in it, but if you did have a brain tumor, how does that somehow excuse killing your 2- year-old girl and disposing of her body like it`s trash?

SHU: It would never --

GRACE: How did that happen?

SHU: It would never excuse it, Nancy. I think the premise might be that having a brain tumor in a specific place might cause behavior changes or errors in judgment.

GRACE: But what kind of behavior change? Could it cause murder, Dr. Shu?

SHU: I don`t think so.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. PHIL MCGRAW, HOST, "DR. PHIL": Do you excuse the lies that Casey has told in this situation?

C. ANTHONY: Not at all.

MCGRAW: And some of them seemingly benign but significant for two years she thought she worked at Universal, right?

C. ANTHONY: Yes. And to this day I`ve never had an opportunity to really talk to Casey about that.

MCGRAW: What would you say to her about it?

C. ANTHONY: I would be very angry about it. I would want to know why she felt she had to lie.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: I talked to Juliette Lewis. She`s one of my coworkers at Universal.

CPL. YURY MELICH, ORANGE COUNTY INVESTIGATOR: She works -- you still work at Universal?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.

MELICH: What do you do at Universal?

CASEY ANTHONY: An event coordinator.

C. ANTHONY: The thing of it is, though, Casey`s story to me was that she was working a second job. She was telling me that she was trying to get her life on track. I didn`t know she was lying for two years about the job. That`s why on July 3rd I drove down to Universal Studios and tried to see Casey and Caylee. She then said she was in Jacksonville. And I was irritated like you wouldn`t believe.

MCGRAW: So Casey had constructed an elaborate menagerie of lies.

C. ANTHONY: Absolutely.

MCGRAW: And there are details, back stories, side stories --

C. ANTHONY: Such details that --

G. ANTHONY: Very detailed.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You`re seeing video of Dr. Phil`s interview with George and Cindy Anthony from CBS where they explain to the best that they can why their daughter is responsible for the death and the disappearance of their beloved granddaughter, 2-year-old Caylee.

We are taking your calls. Out to Patti in Pennsylvania. Hi, Patti. What`s your question?

PATTI, CALLER FROM PENNSYLVANIA: Hi, Nancy. I just want to thank you for everything that you do. Love you for it.

GRACE: Thank you.

PATTI: Love your children, too.

GRACE: Thank you.

PATTI: I`m a grandma myself, my daughter is 27, single, raised a 7- year-old beautiful daughter.

GRACE: It`s not easy.

PATTI: Question, I don`t understand Cindy. We know she`s all in denial. George knows the truth. My question, though, really is if you`re watching Dr. Phil, remember when Cindy was saying, well, we know she was in the back of the car because they had to put the body there to take her out to the woods?

GRACE: OK. What about that, Ellie?

ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE CHIEF EDITORIAL PRODUCER: Well, yes, George finally says, it`s true he -- part of him does believe that Caylee`s body was in the trunk, but then Cindy says, well, I know that the body got into the woods. I don`t know if it was transported in Casey`s car or by some other means. So she still is on the fence about it.

GRACE: To Joyce in Colorado. Hi, Joyce. What`s your question?

JOYCE, CALLER FROM COLORADO: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: Hi, dear.

JOYCE: I wish Cindy would quit making excuses for her daughter, and that they would just see that she was the last person seen with her daughter, and all she cared about was going out partying, living her life. She didn`t report her child missing for 31 days, and now they`re talking about tumors and schizophrenic, and all this other stuff on Dr. Phil, when it`s ridiculous already. Who lets their child go missing for over an hour?

GRACE: You know what, Dr. Saunders, you know, I have my own opinion on that, because I will never forget the one minute John David went missing in Babies `R Us, OK? And the moment I turned around and saw he wasn`t right there with Lucy, the first thing I thought of was Adam Walsh. And John Walsh`s son that went missing I believe it was in a Sears.

And I immediately screamed bloody murder, my baby boy`s gone, honey, security started running from all over. We found him. He was playing hide-and-seek with mommy, and he had run up to the front of the store and was hiding behind something.

But answer her question. Answer Joyce in Colorado`s question.

PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Two parts, Nancy. One, you`re not a psychopath. I think Casey Anthony is. And two, I think that it`s impossible for Cindy to acknowledge that she has given birth to a monster, and she may feel guilty about that. That may be what she can`t acknowledge.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. I want to go to Steve Helling, writer with "People" magazine, author of "Outrage: The Casey Anthony Story" that is out today.

Let`s see the cover, Liz, of "Outrage: The Casey Anthony Story."

Steve Helling, what did you make of George and Cindy`s demeanor as they spoke to Dr. Phil?

HELLING: Well, you know, I`ve spent time with George and Cindy Anthony, and you know, it`s interesting to watch them talk, because sometimes you think they don`t even believe what they`re saying.

I would say today, you know, on "Dr. Phil" they spoke some truth, but I don`t think it was the whole truth. It really felt like they were holding things back. And it was the same thing that I saw three years ago when they were being really careful about everything that they say.

That`s why I don`t know that we`re ever going to get real answers from that and real -- you know, concrete explanations of everything that happened.

GRACE: To Jean Casarez, legal correspondent "In Session." What did we learn about those damning computer searches, Jean?

JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Well, in today`s episode I think that`s left. But there`s two more parts to this, but Cindy does not claim responsibility that Casey did those searches, so that is a repeat of the trial. But you know what we learned today that we haven`t learned before? That Cindy has been in therapy for three years about all of this, and I truly think she believes what she`s saying.

GRACE: So you believe that Cindy believes she went on the computer and searched for chlorophyll, about how bamboo grows, and that somehow the computer auto -- as she says auto filled in the world chloroform?

CASAREZ: Yes.

GRACE: Chloroform and chlorophyll are nothing alike.

CASAREZ: That`s right. And in the trial it was so obvious that those searches were not done by Cindy. She was at work. The records showed it. The evidence showed it. But she`s not claiming the responsibility for anyone but herself.

GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Raymond Giudice and Randy Kessler, both defense attorneys.

To you, Raymond, Dr. Phil revisits the whole sex abuse allegation, and do you think that anything either George or Cindy could say today could be actionable in court? Regarding those claims tot mom made?

GIUDICE: Well, if I was advising George and Cindy, I`d say listen, your daughter still has a defamation case from Zenaida Gonzalez against her. She has an appeal on a criminal case. The state of Florida wants three quarters of a million dollars back. Why don`t you bite your tongue and maybe write a book in a couple of years?

I think they should be much more careful and circumspect about what they`re saying and to whom.

GRACE: Because of civil lawsuits?

GIUDICE: Well, absolutely. I mean, the statute of limitations on perjury from this jury trial for any party that may have testified has not yet run yet, Nancy, as Jean Casarez I think was alluding to.

GRACE: But, Kessler, come on. What`s the likelihood that they`re going to prosecute Cindy Anthony for perjury?

KESSLER: It`s very low. But again this is a high profile case, and if they`re going to make an example of anybody, this would be the one to make the example of.

GRACE: -- your calls but I want to go back to Drew Kesse.

Drew, I want to hear your thoughts on their demeanor.

DREW KESSE, FATHER OF MISSING WOMAN, JENNIFER KESSE, ANGRY ABOUT ANTHONYS` INTERVIEW ON DR. PHIL: I thought they were -- I thought they were overly calm. I thought that they were making up more excuses again. I think they were not telling some of the truth. I think George was telling more truth than Cindy was from what I can gather and from what I`ve learned through education of body language for many, many years, actually.

But you know, let`s get back when we came out of break. We heard Cindy say that she could just never imagine that her daughter would make up these lies. Yet she stood right on that stand and committed perjury.

And no, the AG in Florida is not going to go after them, I`ve had conversations with her.

GRACE: I think you`re right about that. I don`t think there`s going to be any prosecution.

KESSE: No.

GRACE: Hey, Ellie, what did we learn about all those hot body pictures, the pictures of tot mom immediately after Caylee goes missing in the pushup bra and the go-go boots?

JOSTAD: Right. Well, Cindy Anthony had an explanation for that. She said that Casey didn`t want to part -- take part in this hot body contest, that she only did it reluctantly when another girl didn`t show up, and she said she was much more subdued. They only showed a picture taken out of context that showed Casey Anthony in the worst possible light.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCGRAW: Do you excuse the lies that Casey has told in this situation?

C. ANTHONY: Not at all.

MCGRAW: Some of them seemingly denying, but significant, for two years, you thought she worked at Universal?

C. ANTHONY: Yes. And to this day I`ve never had an opportunity to really talk to Casey about that.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCGRAW: What do you now believe the smell was from?

C. ANTHONY: Truthfully to this day, I don`t know. To be honest.

G. ANTHONY: Do I want to believe that Caylee was back there? I don`t want to believe it. I mean I`m going by what investigators have told me. All I know is that Caylee is not with us any more. I know that.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You`re seeing Dr. Phil`s interview with George and Cindy Anthony from CBS. We are taking your calls.

Jean Casarez, did we learn anything as to whether tot mom has been in communication with her parents? Has she even called them since the trial?

CASAREZ: You know Mark Lippman has repeatedly said there was no contact. I think I heard at one point that there may have been some small contact. But George Anthony is saying that Casey is not welcome back into their home and that relationship is over.

GRACE: Not welcome back in the home. What did Cindy say?

CASAREZ: I don`t think Cindy is making a comment. And I think they`re divergent on a lot of issues. I think Cindy would welcome Casey back in their home.

GRACE: Yes, you know, Jean, I guess falsely accusing your father and brother of molesting you sexually pretty much severed those ties.

Let`s stop and remember Navy Petty Officer 1st Class David Tapper, Atco, New Jersey, killed in Afghanistan. Also served Iraq. Awarded two Bronze Stars, Purple Heart, Elite Navy SEAL, involved in a high profile rescue of POW Jessica Lynch.

A Navy plane named in his honor. Loved scuba diving, sky diving, skiing. Leaves behind parents Judith and Ken, sisters Judy, Ruth, Miranda, Diana, widow Tracy. Four children.

David Tapper. American hero.

Thanks for our guests, but especially to you, and tonight a special good night from our Georgia and Michigan friends, UNICEF auction winners Sherry and Michael.

Now aren`t they beautiful?

And tonight, a very warm and loving happy birthday to our show`s executive producer, Dean Siccoli. He co-created the show way back when. He has stuck with us all through thick and thin. His true loves, three boys, Luke, Will, and Matthew. And of course, his beautiful wife, Corinne.

Sweet 16, and never been -- well, OK, happy birthday anyway, Dean.

And happy birthday to sweet friend Donna, married to Steve, mother of twins Zach and Nick, and mother to two golden labs Buddy and Bo.

Happy birthday to one of our stars, Riki, a Boston Celtics fan. Loves traveling, favorite spot, Greece.

Happy birthday.

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END