Return to Transcripts main page

NANCY GRACE

Meter Reader Kronk Grilled by Defense on Finding Caylee`s Remains

Aired June 28, 2011 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the case of 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminate when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee. A utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair, the killer duct- taping, placing a heart-shaped sticker directly over the mouth, then triple-bagging little Caylee like she`s trash.

The murder trial of tot mom Casey Anthony under way. Tot mom`s lawyer tells a stunned courtroom she has nothing to do with Caylee`s death, but that her own father, ex-cop George Anthony, shows up with Caylee`s dead body, then George hides it, leaving it to rot. Tot mom also claims father George and brother Lee both sexually molest her.

Then the Anthony family cover-up. Cindy Anthony says she, not tot mom, is responsible for over 100 murder-related computer searches and that the ladder was up and attached to the pool the day Caylee disappears, leaving the jury to believe the 2-year-old wanders in to drown. And brother Lee covers, too, saying tot mom`s car trunk was covered in stains when he bought the car.

Bombshell tonight. Father George Anthony, back on the stand, denies he ever had sex with mistress Krystal Holloway, who claims George confides Caylee`s death an accident. Former fiance Jesse Grund says tot mom insisted Caylee, quote, "wasn`t safe" around brother Lee."

And tonight, as the state allegedly lays a trap to bust Cindy Anthony for perjury, meter reader Roy Kronk takes a grilling for finding 2-year-old Caylee`s skull and tells a stunned jury he pokes into Caylee`s eye socket with a stick.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is Orange County utility emergency dispatch. We found a human skull.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 99.999 percent sure it was a skull.

ROY KRONK, METER READER: Yes, sir.

I`m a meter reader with Orange County. I noticed something that looked white. I`m not telling you it`s, you know, Caylee or anything of that nature.

I had no idea what it was, but yes, sir, it did look like a human skull to me.

I really rather would not, being a county employee and all that. That`s why I`m talking to you all.

911 OPERATOR: You can remain anonymous.

KRONK: Not if they find a freaking body.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You put that stick in the eye socket of the skull?

KRONK: I gently pivoted it up.

It looked rather (ph) suspicious. I didn`t touch anything.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ever instruct Dominic Casey and Jim Hoover to go search off of Suburban Drive?

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: No, sir. I did not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did your mother tell you about sending Dominic with a video camera?

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY`S BROTHER: Yes, sir.

KRONK: Held the bag out. The third shake, the contents of the bag shifted.

Then a skull dropped out.

I looked down at my feet. The skull was basically at my feet. That was a very horrific thing for me to find.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: So did the Anthony family actually send private investigators to search the scene where Caylee`s remains ultimately found before the body was found? How did they know to go look there? Who would have told them that besides tot mom herself?

Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. Father George Anthony, I did not have sex with mistress.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was looking at it from behind and I still didn`t think it was real.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you call your boss or 911?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I called my area supervisor.

911 OPERATOR: 911. What`s your emergency.

KRONK: I`m a meter reader with Orange County and I had the route today that included the Anthonys` home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You didn`t call the crime line?

KRONK: No, sir.

KRONK: I`m just telling you I saw something.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You didn`t call 911.

KRONK: No, sir.

It just didn`t look like something that should be there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You went back to your vehicle?

KRONK: Yes, sir.

I saw something and I called in a tip the other day.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Called your supervisor and said what?

KRONK: That I had found a human skull.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tried to stress to him to please not (INAUDIBLE) into the area.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Krystal Holloway.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY`S FATHER: She has a brain tumor. She was dying.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you have a romantic relationship with her?

GEORGE ANTHONY: No, sir. That`s very funny.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you ever intimate with her?

GEORGE ANTHONY: No, sir. That`s also very funny.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Never told her this was an accident that snowballed out of control?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Never did.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ever tell her not to say anything about your affair?

GEORGE ANTHONY: I did not have an affair with her, so the answer is no.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You were completely sold on the lies that your sister had told you?

LEE ANTHONY: I believe everything that my sister tells me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She woke up one night with Lee groping her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes and no.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. We are live outside the Orange County, Orlando, courthouse, bringing you the latest in the trial of tot mom, Casey Anthony, on trial for the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl, Caylee.

What a day in the courtroom today. Everybody`s head is just spinning! It comes out that the Anthony family apparently sends PIs, private investigators, to the scene where Caylee`s body ultimately found, long before the body found. How did they know to go there? According to the PIs, a psychic told them to look for three paver stones. And out of that, they find the spot where Caylee`s supposed to be?

Not only that, father George Anthony back on the stand, called by the defense. They question him about the so-called other woman, Krystal Holloway, street name River Cruz. He denies ever having sex with her. That leads to a grilling of utility meter reader Roy Kronk on the stand, who`s taking a beating for calling police about finding Caylee`s body.

To Jean Casarez. Jean, I hardly know where to start. First let`s start with George Anthony. What happened?

JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": Well, George Anthony took the stand. The defense didn`t waste any time. They got into this with this alleged mistress. He denied sexual contact with her at all, but gave details, details we`ve hardly even heard before, that she went to the command center, that she became a part of their family, in a sense, that she was searching for Caylee, too, that she told George and Cindy that she had a brain tumor.

And because of that, he said, She had given to our family, I had to give back to her. So he admitted he went to her condominium two to three times to try to get her through her traumatic situation.

GRACE: Now, wait a minute. Is Cindy Anthony supposed to know that he`s going to River Cruz`s, AKA Krystal Holloway, apartment to comfort her? Does Cindy know about this?

CASAREZ: He testified she knew about it, yes.

GRACE: So can I ask you something? Why don`t they ask Cindy about it on the stand to clear it all up? There are so many questions left unasked in this trial! So what else did we learn?

CASAREZ: From George Anthony, we learned that he denied ever saying that it was an accident that snowballed out of control to Krystal, and that he also denies that he ever said that he pinned Casey against the wall and said, I know you killed your child, I know you murdered her. And Nancy, those are two inconsistent statements that River Cruz has given to authorities.

GRACE: They`re very inconsistent, Jean Casarez, because this woman, River Cruz -- who I believe her sister or somebody sells the story to "The Enquirer" or to one of the tabloids about her and George Anthony. So I know she`s going to be cross-examined, if they even bring her to the stand on selling her story for money.

But on one hand, she says, George Anthony tells me it was a big accident that snowballed out of control. On the other hand, she says, George Anthony told me he pinned Casey to the wall, he smacked her around and said, I know you did something to Caylee. Where is she? You can`t have your cake and eat it, too. So which one? Was it an accident, or did he think tot mom did it?

CASAREZ: Well, it`s very inconsistent. Furthermore, Nancy, River Cruz, when she spoke with authorities -- sworn affidavit -- she said there was never an affair, and then later she changed her story.

GRACE: Yes, well, I`ve got it right here. River Cruz says point- blank she did not have an affair with George Anthony. She says that to police. And when you say a sworn statement, that means, Jean, that she raises her hand and she signs at the bottom that she swears or affirms that what she says in that statement is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So under oath, she says she did not have an affair with George Anthony.

Now, to Aphrodite Jones, also in court today, host of "True Crime" on Investigation Discovery. Aphrodite, thank you for being with us. What about this so-called text that George Anthony sends River Cruz?

APHRODITE JONES, HOST, "TRUE CRIME": Well, we heard about that text in the opening statement, Nancy, you and I sitting next to each other for that. And the defense wanted us to know, the jury to know, that there was supposedly an affair going on and that text was proof of it.

And the text said, I need you in my life, something to that effect. I can`t -- you know, I need you in my life. Remember, Nancy, this is a man who when he was questioned today had to say that he did send a text, that he did leave a letter at this woman`s doorstep, that he did visit her condo on multiple occasions when, hey, no one else is around and he was supposed to be at work, to comfort her?

If any woman in America heard that about their husband being -- comforting some woman with -- and having evidence of it and cell phone call records, as well, that show he was calling her -- I don`t think any woman in America would believe that something wasn`t going on.

GRACE: Well, I can tell you this much, Aphrodite Jones. I`m not saying anything out of school. I`m not saying anything I haven`t told my husband straight to his face. There would be hell to pay, all right, if my husband`s out comforting somebody when he`s supposed to be at work and sending a text, I need you in my life. Oh, yes! Oh, yes, I would be beside myself!

But let`s get back to the...

JONES: And Nancy, here`s the thing. He`s supposed to be looking for his child. This is a volunteer. Not only is it so inappropriate, he`s having this, quote, unquote, "romance," whatever it is. Maybe it`s a blooming romance. I don`t know. But he`s doing it with somebody who is a volunteer, supposedly there to help the Anthonys to find Caylee?

GRACE: Well, I`m going to go to Caryn Stark, psychologist. You know, Caryn, when people are suffering and in a lot of grief, they do a lot of crazy things. I mean, I remember for many, many years after my fiance`s murder, you know -- I was prosecuting by that time. I would, you know, tromp through housing projects without an investigator, unarmed, you know, half -- in the middle of the night, delivering subpoenas, you name it. I mean, your mindset is not what it normally would.

But this lady says under oath they did not have an affair. George says they did not have an affair. If there was a flirtation or something like that, who cares? I don`t care! Do you care? Caryn, explain to me how this could have happened and still be platonic.

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, it could be, Nancy. Anything could be platonic. He could have gone there. It is during a grief period. Anything can happen.

GRACE: I mean, Caryn -- Caryn!

STARK: Yes, Nancy? Yes?

GRACE: His granddaughter is gone. That`s the love of his life. She`s gone! So he finds a shoulder to cry on. Why are we having to hear about that in court? Why are they tearing down George Anthony?

STARK: It doesn`t make sense. I keep thinking they`re tearing him down, Nancy, because he`s the weakest link, because he`s the one that tried to kill himself, and he`s the most vulnerable.

GRACE: No!

STARK: So he`s just the easiest...

GRACE: I`ll tell you why...

STARK: ... one to attack.

GRACE: ... they`re tearing him down.

STARK: OK, you tell me.

GRACE: They`re tearing him down because he is tot mom`s golden ticket. He is the lottery. He is the jackpot. They`re going to blame all this on father George Anthony. And any way they can make him look bad or drag him through the mud, they`re going to do it!

STARK: Yes, Nancy, they will do it. And it`s just such a shame because he is suffering. And who really cares what he did while he was grieving to take care of himself? It has nothing to do with what`s happening here.

GRACE: Father George Anthony taking a grilling on the stand today over this woman, who says under oath there was no affair. That`s the tip of the iceberg of what went down in Orlando courtroom today. We are taking your calls live. Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was a little pissed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because he`s trying to use me again, like, as a scapegoat.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that fair to say you had an affair with George Anthony?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An intimate affair.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Intimate affair.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But when the investigators asked you about it, you denied it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I did.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I figured I could tell them everything without having to tell them that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Anthony, do you know a woman by the name of Krystal Holloway?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that fair to say, you had an affair with George Anthony?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

GEORGE ANTHONY: To me, that`s -- that`s -- that`s very funny.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you have a romantic relationship with her?

GEORGE ANTHONY: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Intimate affair.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I never had a romantic affair.

It`s also very funny.

You don`t want to be knocked down, get out of my way!

She has a questionable past.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s trying to use me again, like, as a scapegoat.

GEORGE ANTHONY: She has a brain tumor. She was dying. She needed someone to comfort her and just someone who volunteered at our site.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was a little pissed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ever send her a text message telling her that you needed her in your life?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes, I sent many text messages to many, many volunteers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You grabbed her by the throat, threw her up against the wall and said, I know you did something to Caylee. Where`s Caylee?

GEORGE ANTHONY: The person who was in the back of my granddaughter`s (SIC) car is not my granddaughter!

No, sir. I never did do that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tell Krystal Holloway, or River Cruz, Caylee`s death was...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was it an accident?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Shut up! Shut up!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That it was an accident that snowball out of control.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Snowballed out of control.

GEORGE ANTHONY: That conversation was never there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. We are live outside the Orlando, Orange County, courthouse, bringing you the latest on the trial of Casey Anthony, on trial for the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl, Caylee.

Once again on the stand served up like a Thanksgiving turkey to slice, father George Anthony. The defense goes back to drink at the well, trying to drag George Anthony through the mud again in their attempt to save their client, tot mom, and now claiming George Anthony had an affair with one of the searchers, Krystal Holloway, street name River Cruz. Yes, she does have a criminal record. Doesn`t matter. What matters is she told police in a sworn statement this didn`t happen. And why do they even care about an affair? Because this woman claims George told her Caylee`s death was an accident.

We are taking your calls. Out to Jeremy in Tennessee. Hi, Jeremy. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Nancy. Thanks so much for taking my call. My wife and I love you!

GRACE: Thank you, Jeremy. I appreciate that. What`s your question? What do you think?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I think a lot of what the defense has been saying stinks from the start. But my question is -- so let`s humor them and say that George Anthony is holding the dripping, dead Caylee, that she was never thrown out into the woods until just a few weeks prior to her discovery. What`s happened to all that time in the middle? How would that exonerate the defense?

GRACE: You`re absolutely right, Jeremy in television! Unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Christopher Amolsch, defense attorney, Washington, Raymond Giudice, defense attorney, Atlanta.

Ray, how is this helping?

RAYMOND GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, I don`t think the defense has a coherent theory here at all on this timeline. I don`t think it`s helping. I do think they blundered just now in their cross of George Anthony here. He denied it. And I don`t think Krystal Holloway`s going to bail the defense out at all.

GRACE: What about it, Amolsch?

CHRISTOPHER AMOLSCH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think Krystal Holloway`s credibility, as bad as it is, is probably better than George`s. He denies having an affair, and they`ve got text messages that certainly make it look like he did.

GRACE: So "I need you in my life" means a full-blown affair to you, Amolsch?

AMOLSCH: He`s got a lot more explaining to do because that`s not something you say to a volunteer.

GRACE: Well, that was on the defense, and they dropped the ball.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That whole period for me is...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That was very traumatic for me.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Just makes no sense to me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nothing was making sense to me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was a very horrific thing for me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) pieces of stuff.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t remember exactly, or what, if anything.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) a little fuzzy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What, if anything, do you remember, sir?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t exact -- I don`t remember the exact content of it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just really can`t tell you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t recall.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have no earthly idea.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Once again, you`ve completely lost me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. We are live outside the Orange County courthouse, bringing you the latest in the trial of Casey Anthony, tot mom, on trial for the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl. What a day in the courtroom today!

Then we find out, did the Anthony family send private investigators near the scene where Caylee`s body actually ultimately found? How did they know to go there unless tot mom told them? What did we learn, Jean Casarez?

CASAREZ: Well, we learned Cindy Anthony took the stand and she was point-blank questioned and asked, Did you send George (SIC) Hoover over to that wooded area in November because of a tip? She denied it -- I never sent them. So then Lee takes the stand. Same question -- Yes, my mother told me that she sent them there.

GRACE: So bottom line, Cindy sitting in the courtroom when Lee takes the stand, Jean?

CASAREZ: They were sitting together, Nancy. One gets up, one sits down, the other one goes up.

GRACE: To Ellie Jostad. What is the significance of Lee`s testimony following Cindy`s?

ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, yesterday the jurors saw that videotape of Dominic Casey and James Hoover in the woods just a month before Caylee`s remains were found. Now, what the defense is trying to say is that the remains were not there. In fact, they claimed Roy Kronk had the remains in his control during that time.

So Lee is saying, Yes, my mom and I talked about it, she told me that they were looking for a dead Caylee. They actually got in an argument about it because Lee said he couldn`t believe his that parents were willing to accept that Caylee was dead and that they were sending someone to look for the remains.

GRACE: So Natisha Lance, all this business about the only reason they were there is because of a psychic, when we now know Cindy Anthony sent a PI out there to look? And this is in the same general area where Caylee was found. How did they know to go look there, Natisha?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Right, Nancy. She`s saying that this tip came from a psychic. But not only that, she was also questioned about December 20th, when investigators came to execute a search warrant and she told investigators at that time, too, that area`s been searched. Caylee is not there.

GRACE: When we come back, Ginette Matacia Lucas, the psychic who gave the tip to find Caylee`s body.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROY KRONK, METER READER WHO FOUND CAYLEE`S REMAINS: Roy, R-O-Y, Kronk, K-R-O-N-K.

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: You had control of Caylee`s remains obviously for several months.

KRONK: I had previously reported that I had spotted something suspicious.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In August when you first found the dead body, the whole area was dry enough to walk around in, wasn`t it?

KRONK: I never discovered a body in August. I noticed something the looked white and there was -- I don`t know what it is. I`m not telling you it`s, you know, Caylee or anything of that nature. It`s something round and white underneath of it. I don`t know what it is.

UNIDENTIFIED DISPATCHER: Regardless if you`re a county employee, you can remain anonymous.

KRONK: Not if they find a freaking body. I`m a meter reader with Orange County. I have the Caylee`s route and I called in a tip the other day and they said they would dispatch an officer out to me when I got there. And I`m here.

BAEZ: He`s broke. It`s time to cash in his lottery ticket.

KRONK: This is Orange County Utilities Emergency dispatch. We found a human skull.

UNIDENTIFIED DISPATCHER: Oh, my gosh.

KRONK: I very gently took it and put it into the right eye socket and I gently pivoted it up and looked down and I realized what it was.

UNIDENTIFIED DISPATCHER: What is the location?

KRONK: It`s right off of Suburban and Chickasaw in the Caylee Anthony area right by the -- I know that I haven`t done anything wrong, so I don`t have a reason to be fearful or troubled by any of this.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are live outside the Orange County, Orlando courthouse, bringing you the latest at the end of the courtroom day in the trial of tot mom Casey Anthony. Charged in the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl.

What a day in the courtroom today. Father George Anthony dragged back on the stand by the defense and questioned about an alleged affair that he denies. George Anthony being offered up like a sacrificial lamb to take the focus off his daughter tot mom.

Then we learn through Lee Anthony that the Anthonys had sent private eyes to the general area where Caylee`s body ultimately found long before the body found. How did they know where to go?

And utility meter reader Roy Kronk on the stand, taking a grilling. Tell me, what`s wrong with him getting the reward for finding the body? Why? What`s the problem? I don`t understand it.

We are taking your calls live, but right now, a very special guest, Ginnette Maticia Lucas, psychicatparanormaladvisers.com. So she leads the private investigator to the area where Caylee`s body ultimately found.

Miss Lucas, thank you for being with us.

GINNETTE MATICIA LUCAS, PSYCHIC, LEAD PI TO AREA WHERE CAYLEE`S BODY FOUND: Thank you for having me.

GRACE: Miss Lucas, what did you tell the Anthony family or Anthony family contacts to lead them to the area where Caylee was ultimately found?

LUCAS: I gave a house location, meaning their house. I used it as a landmark. And then I told them to leave the house, take a right and go to suburban, because I was -- I was thinking -- I was picking up a truck.

And I said you`ll see a suburban and then you take a right and there`ll be an empty house on the corner. And then you go past the house and there`ll be some pavers, like three pavers, and that`s the land to mark. I said start at the house to be safe and then move on and just go into the woods.

And I was told there weren`t any pavers there. So I said, are you sure? And he goes, no, just a bunch of rocks. And I said, are you sure, he said no, no, no pavers. And I said OK, just keep going into the woods because we`ll get some more information and I`ll disclose it to you as you go in.

So, finally I said, you`re there, go in the woods. And he kept saying I can`t, I can`t and he started getting upset --

GRACE: Hold on. Hold on. We`re showing you a shot of what we believe to be the pavers that everyone is talking about, these white stones found at the crime scene.

Go ahead, Miss Lucas.

LUCAS: Well, I just want to say that I gave directions from the house, from the Anthony house, and saying take a right, go to the end of the driveway, take a right, go to the end of the street, there`s like a T intersection. There is an abandoned or empty house. I said it doesn`t look as nice compared to the other houses, and then keep going back straight into the woods but look for the pavers, the three pavers.

And I mentioned, you`re not looking for a little girl, you`re looking for unfortunately trash. And I said you`re looking for either a white bag that has turned black from mold or environmental damage, and I kept going into detail and he goes, I can`t see it. And then eventually he just started getting very, very upset.

And I said, it`s a deceased person. It is only trash. It is body parts, that kind of thing. It is bones. The animals had gotten to it. Forget it, you have to get strong, you have to keep going. And that`s what we know.

GRACE: Can I ask you, while they were on the phone with you, they did not find Caylee`s remains, did they, Miss Lucas?

LUCAS: Well, he said there were snakes there so he couldn`t continue.

GRACE: OK. Miss Lucas, of course you know that many, many people do not believe that psychics have clairvoyant abilities.

Could you describe for us, Miss Lucas, what vision or what feeling came to you to give you these directions?

LUCAS: Well, I use every possible technique there is in the paranormal field. I`m from D.C., so I use an ability called remote dousing. I don`t know if you`ve ever heard of it. (INAUDIBLE) use it -- uses it and has a book on it. My father is a famous Marine Corps analyst and uses dousing and I use dousing to pinpoint price and locations like the Sandra Levy case and the --

GRACE: Wait, wait, wait. Just -- if you could tell me, I don`t know what remote dousing is. I don`t know what dousing is. But what vision or thought or feeling came to you to give you these directions, is my question.

LUCAS: All right, what I do, because I`m a female, females are different in the police force versus males. And I`m the same thing, I`m a former PI, Virginia PI, and what happens is you use a landmark, and you start from your landmark and there is a process. Whenever you work on any case, there is pattern and there`s consistency.

So I said start at the house. So you have the house as the landmark, that`s the starting point, the point of origin.

GRACE: I understand that. I know the directions you gave them. I`m going to try one more time.

LUCAS: OK, you want to know what vision I`m seeing?

GRACE: What feeling or thought or vision? What came to you that led you to these directions?

LUCAS: All right, I had a -- I used a pendulum and then I put it by my bed, I got a teddy bear in the mail without any notes from Cindy Anthony, no notes, no nothing, just a teddy bear in the mail, and I put it by the bed and I do what`s called dream incubation. And the dream incubation is that you write up notes, and you tell yourself, I want to see, show me what or where the item is that I`m looking for.

And then I use that technique and it is very successful.

GRACE: With me is Ginette Maticia Lucas, the psychic that allegedly tells Anthony family PIs where to look for the body.

Out to Judie in Tennessee. Hi, Judie, what`s your question? Excuse me, Judie, Illinois, hi, dear, what`s your question?

JUDIE, CALLER FROM ILLINOIS: Hi. Thanks for taking my call, Nancy. And I want to say, God bless you for being the voice for all the innocent victims in this world.

GRACE: Thank you.

JUDIE: I was just wondering, has Caylee`s body been released for a proper burial or is she --

GRACE: Yes, it has. It has been released to the Anthony family. Although to our understanding it was never buried. And it has not ever been made public, like in a public memorial, buried in a mausoleum of any type for fear of vandalism.

We are taking your calls outside the Orlando courthouse.

I want to go to Woody Tripp, former police commander.

Woody, do police use psychics?

WOODY TRIPP, FORMER POLICE COMMANDER, POLYGRAPH EXPERT: They have, Nancy, on occasion.

GRACE: OK. Would you put a psychic up in front of a jury?

TRIPP: That would be very risky. And that --

GRACE: That`s a yes/no question.

TRIPP: Probably not. No.

GRACE: OK. Giudice and Amolsch, everybody who`s ever prosecuted a murder case has likely at some point dealt with psychics. Now a lot of people don`t believe in psychics, but the reality is somehow, someway, they have cracked cases in the past. Don`t ask me how. I`m not psychic, I`m not clairvoyant.

But the fact is they have given information to police that have led to bodies in the past. How do they do it? Don`t know, don`t care. But I know it has happened in the past. But would you put it up on the stand? Giudice?

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, if I knew that the prosecution had used it, I would and I would cross that witness and say this, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, is the best the prosecution`s got.

GRACE: OK. To Christopher Amolsch, would you put a psychic on the stand?

CHRISTOPHER AMOLSCH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I wouldn`t put one on the stand but I would certainly cross-examine one. I mean that`s just nonsense you heard from --

GRACE: OK. This is what we`re left with, people. By the way, I`m getting a note. Caylee was in fact cremated.

Here`s the dilemma. So for the defense, do they want to tell the jury that a psychic led these private investigators to the body? Or do they want the jury to come to the conclusion, the practical conclusion that one of the Anthony family members told the PIs where to look. And who would that member be other than tot mom? Who else would know where Caylee was disposed?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BAEZ: This is a tragic accident.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: There`s something wrong.

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: Shut up.

BAEZ: That happened to some very disturbed people.

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: Nobody`s -- come on. Letting me speak. Because I lie.

CINDY ANTHONY: It smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

L. ANTHONY: This family is united.

CINDY ANTHONY: We`re falling apart.

BAEZ: Mrs. Anthony, did you ever instruct Dominick Casey --

L. ANTHONY: I was very angry at my mom.

BAEZ: To go search off of Suburban Drive?

CINDY ANTHONY: No, sir, I did not.

L. ANTHONY: This family is incomplete.

CASEY ANTHONY: That`s true.

BAEZ: Did you tell your son Lee Anthony that you had sent Dominick Casey to Suburban Drive to look for Caylee with a video camera?

L. ANTHONY: Yes, sir, that did happen.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Lee basically contradicting his own mom.

CINDY ANTHONY: I never told anybody that I sent those guys there.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Calling her a liar.

CINDY ANTHONY: Because I never sent those guys there.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Calling her a liar right there in court.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why did you say that for?

CINDY ANTHONY: I`m done.

CASEY ANTHONY: It is obvious where everybody`s intentions lie.

L. ANTHONY: With all your heart, with compassion and truth.

BAEZ: Did you tell Lee or have an argument with Lee?

L. ANTHONY: Yes, sir, that did happen.

BAEZ: About sending Dominick to go and search in that area?

CINDY ANTHONY: I had no knowledge of that search in that area.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Yes, the hell, you did.

CINDY ANTHONY: So we would not have had an argument regarding that.

CASEY ANTHONY: I mean honestly --

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: It`s very muddy at this point.

BAEZ: Did you ever have an argument or discussion with your mother?

CINDY ANTHONY: Back off.

BAEZ: About sending Dominick Casey --

CINDY ANTHONY: I already answered the question.

BAEZ: To look for Caylee off Suburban Drive with a video camera?

L. ANTHONY: Yes, sir, I did.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: There is the back and forth.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: She`s lying about this.

CASEY ANTHONY: I would lie, I would steal.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Maybe she`s lying about all those sinister Internet searches for chloroform.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s right.

CINDY ANTHONY: I`ll do whatever it takes.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. We are live at the Orange County, Orlando courthouse, bringing you the latest on the trial of Casey Anthony, on trial for the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little Caylee.

And today Roy Kronk, utility meter reader, on the stand taking a grilling. Why? He`s the good guy. He`s the one that finds the remains and calls the police. In fact, he calls them one, two, three times before he can get somebody to come and really take a look.

Why is he being destroyed by the defense?

And out to you, Aphrodite Jones, the defense theory in my mind doesn`t make sense. If Roy Kronk is somehow hiding the body, why did he call police? Many, many times to try to get them out there? Why would he do that if he was trying to hide the body?

APHRODITE JONES, HOST, "TRUE CRIME" ON INVESTIGATION DISCOVERY, IN COURT TODAY, FROM TOT MOM COURTHOUSE: Well, it doesn`t make sense, but yet I watch the jurors today, and there is a question, I can see the wheels turning in their heads because here`s the deal, Nancy, Kronk says on the first day, when he saw a human skull, that he wasn`t sure if it really was human or plastic or a prop.

And so his co-workers, he mentioned it to them, but then he didn`t give them enough of a sense that it was urgent and he let them get distracted by a snake. What does that tell you?

Well, as a juror, I`m thinking, hey, this guy did want to collect on the money. He didn`t want anyone else there. He later called it in at 9:00 p.m. at night when he could be the only one there to, voila, find the body. Why didn`t he just go to the media around the corner, Nancy?

GRACE: Wait, wait, wait. Yes, I`m down with that. I don`t have a problem with any of that. He finds the body, he wants the reward, he doesn`t want to share it, so what? Don`t care. The point is, they are trying to claim this guy stole the remains, what, kept them in a jar on the coffee table?

JONES: They want to create a mystery.

GRACE: And then finally months later goes out, re-scatters the remains -- it doesn`t even make any sense.

To Dr. Jennifer Shu --

JONES: You`re right, Nancy.

GRACE: -- pediatrician and editor of "Baby and Child Health."

Dr. Shu, the way the body was finally found, where the head, the skull was sunk down in dirt and vines, up to about sideways, if the head was laying back like that, the bones scatter and gnawed by animals. There is no way that a civilian, really anyone, could go and stage that scene. No way.

DR. JENNIFER SHU, PEDIATRICIAN, CO-AUTHOR OF "HEADING HOME W/YOUR NEWBORN": Right. I mean, this is also confusing, Nancy. We don`t know, you know, how long the remains have been there, what animals have moved them around. What we do know is that when remains are left into the -- in the elements with animals that they will decompose in a matter of weeks to months, much faster than if they had been buried, for example, or even in swampy water.

GRACE: If her body had been floating or sitting in the water from Tropical Storm Fay for a period of weeks, what condition would it be in, Dr. Shu?

SHU: You know, it really depends on the conditions of the water, what kind of animals might have been in the water, what kind of bacteria might be in there. We might still see some tissue.

It`s really hard to say, Nancy. But you mentioned something about the vines being found in her skull or in her skeleton. It`s possible that an expert could figure out how long that plant had been growing there.

GRACE: Absolutely. And to Jean Casarez, all of the experts for the state have stated that the body had been there for some time. And also, Jean Casarez, this whole theory that Kronk took the body and then hit it again, I kept waiting for that to come out in court today. It never happened. I was waiting for the other shoe to drop. Nothing happened.

JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Nothing happened. You know, Nancy, I saw the picture in court when the skull was found with the remains. And what Roy Kronk described today that he saw in August, that`s what I saw in that picture from December 11th. I think he saw the remains in August. That means the remains were there in August.

GRACE: So Jean Casarez, the reality is if he calls police in August to this spot, and then her body is found in this spot, it is just as you say, regardless of what happened after that, that body was there in August, at that spot.

Isn`t that the beginning and the end of it?

CASAREZ: And it was skeletonized because he saw something off white and glossy and smooth. And that was her brain.

GRACE: Jean Casarez, did they ever get anywhere with their theory they said in opening statement that he stole the body and hit it and redistributed it to get the reward? Did that ever come out?

CASAREZ: No. The only way they can go on closing argument is to say that they didn`t have his phone records during those other months of time.

GRACE: But, Jean, can`t the defense subpoena phone records, too?

CASAREZ: Yes, they can. They sure can and the judge told him that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A very large amount of chloroform.

BAEZ: Dr. Voss` study is this two paper --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The chloroform was shockingly high, unusually high.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything from the drinking water to a household foods.

CASEY ANTHONY: Like I said, that none of this would have happened.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BAEZ: She immediately grabbed Caylee and began to cry, and shortly thereafter George began to yell at her.

G. ANTHONY: Look what you`ve done. I would have done everything possible, humanly possible to save my granddaughter.

BAEZ: Did Casey express an opinion or a desire not to have Caylee around Lee?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Take a deep breath, George.

G. ANTHONY: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She told me at one point in recent years that she woke up one night with Lee standing over her in bed, staring at her sleeping.

CINDY ANTHONY: I have a 3-year-old that`s been missing for a month.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Defense calls George Anthony. George Anthony. George Anthony. George Anthony. George Anthony.

G. ANTHONY: George Anthony.

CASEY ANTHONY: My daughter has been missing for the last 31 days.

CINDY ANTHONY: Never would have dreamed that I`d be walking and living this nightmare right now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And in another instance was groping her in the middle of the night.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you have a romantic relationship with her, Crystal Holloway?

G. ANTHONY: No, sir.

CINDY ANTHONY: I`m getting tired and tired of having to justify things.

G. ANTHONY: To me, that`s a -- that`s very funny. You guys don`t care about me.

CINDY ANTHONY: Caylee`s been missing. Caylee is missing.

CASEY ANTHONY: I`ve been looking for her and gone through other resources to try to find her, which was stupid.

G. ANTHONY: I have nothing to hide, sir. Never have.

BAEZ: You never told Crystal Holloway while the two of you were being romantic --

G. ANTHONY: It also was also very funny.

BAEZ: -- that this was an accident that snowballed out of control?

G. ANTHONY: The answer is no.

CHIEF JUDGE BELVIN PERRY, CIRCUIT JUDGE, ORANGE COUNTY: Who`s your next witness.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Let`s stop and remember Navy Hospitalman Chadwick Kenyon Clark, 20, Tucson, Arizona, killed Iraq. Awarded two Purple Hearts, Navy and Marine Corps commendation medal. Compassionate with a heart of gold. Put his life on the line for others.

Loved graphic design, creating musical beats, basketball, favorite teams, Boston Red Sox and Arizona Wildcats. Leaves behind grieving Gold Star mother Sharmane.

Chadwick Kenyon, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night. We will be live at the Orlando courthouse in our own way seeking justice for Caylee. I`ll see you tomorrow night. 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night.

END