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NANCY GRACE
Did Casey Anthony Copy Fellow Inmate`s Drowning Story?
Aired June 22, 2011 - 20:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the case of 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminate when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee. A utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair, the killer duct- taping, placing a heart-shaped sticker directly over the mouth, then triple-bagging little Caylee like she`s trash.
The murder trial of tot mom Casey Anthony under way. Tot mom`s lawyer tells a stunned courtroom she`s got nothing to do with Caylee`s death, but that her own father, ex-cop George Anthony, shows up with Caylee`s dead body, then hides it, leaving it to rot. Tot mom also claims father George and brother Lee both molest her.
Bombshell tonight. Outrage in the courtroom! In the last hours, the stunning defense emerges that tot mom didn`t leave 2-year-old Caylee`s remains behind, skeletonized, half buried in dirt, coyotes did it! Well, should somebody tell Baez Florida doesn`t have coyotes? And what`s next, a wild dingo did it, Bigfoot?
And also in last hours, revealed, did tot mom copycat her Caylee drowning story from a female inmate housed just feet away from tot mom, whose toddler boy drowned exactly how tot mom claims Caylee did? And tonight, we learn the state plans a rebuttal case to follow the defense. Do Anthony home computer IMs -- instant messages -- torpedo the defense claim that Caylee drowned? And to top it all off, is George Anthony`s alleged mistress set to take the stand for the defense?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: Someone just said that Caylee was dead (ph) this morning, that she drowned in the pool.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: April Whalen, an inmate who may have had contact with Ms. Anthony -- apparently, her child died in a swimming pool.
CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: It was very upsetting last night.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And was found by the child`s grandfather, who immediately administered CPR and called 911.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Drowning, 100 percent of the time, when the person finds the child, they call 911.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ms. Whalen was in an adjacent cell to Ms. Anthony.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shortest period of time that the remains of Caylee Marie Anthony could have been at the scene two weeks.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Maximum of two weeks also?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re not of the opinion that the body had only been there for two weeks?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s possible.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now you`ve lost me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Photographs of me at the crime scene and of the -- not crime scene, excuse me, recovery site.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. Outrage in the courtroom! In the last hours, the stunning defense emerges that tot mom didn`t leave 2-year-old Caylee`s remains behind, skeletonized, half buried in dirt, coyotes did it. Yes, that is what the defense told the jury today. Well, should somebody tell lead defense attorney Jose Baez that Florida doesn`t have coyotes?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you find any products that were used to make chloroform?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No printouts?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, sir. Not at all.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Containers?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, not at all.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Rags?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Any receipts?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chemistry kits?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You didn`t think that evidence was significant enough for you to get a search warrant?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Even though we have these indications of chloroform in the trunk and in the computer, we`re still looking for a live child.
CINDY ANTHONY: She`s out there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have nothing to indicate that she`s not alive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After October 14th, we were (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you were no longer on October 14th, because you had charged her with murder...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... looking for a live child, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It does make a difference if the tape or item is in contact with decomposing flesh.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The tape was on the body, which was decomposing that would increase the chance that the DNA on the tape would also decompose.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When we took that carpet sample from the can, we saw chloroform as the major peak, largest peak.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Unusually high.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you find any chloroform at any given time in the Anthony home throughout the entire time you`ve been investigating this case?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A bone, a hip bone, was buried in four inches of what (INAUDIBLE) as muck, which I assume is what I assume you call wet humus -- wouldn`t that indicate pretty conclusively that the skull had been there a whole lot longer than two weeks?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Or a dog buried it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A dog buried -- a dog buried it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They do, as do coyotes. I don`t know if you have those here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, we`re not blessed with coyotes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: There you have it. The stunning defense emerges that it wasn`t tot mom, Caylee (SIC) Anthony, who left her daughter there, her remains to be found, skeletonized, half buried in the dirt, it was a coyote. That`s the tip of the iceberg about what happened today in a Florida courtroom.
We are live at the Orlando, Orange County, courthouse, bringing you the latest at the end of the courthouse day in the trial of tot mom, Casey Anthony, on trial for the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl, Caylee, Caylee`s remains found just 15 houses from the Anthony home, half buried in weeds, vines, dirt. Recall Tropical Storm Fay came in after Caylee went missing, went missing. Experts say for the state that her body raised up with the water, then subsided down with sediment covering it.
We are taking your calls live from outside the courthouse. Straight out to Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session." To top it all off, we`ve got tot mom just a few feet away from a female inmate whose toddler boy dies, drowns in the aboveground pool in the back yard. She can easily hear what this inmate is talking about. We have got that going on. Did tot mom copycat her story? And we`ve got the defense`s own expert telling the jury that a coyote may have left Caylee`s bones there that way.
What happened, Jean?
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": Well, let`s start with Dr. Jane Bog (ph), botanist for the defense. She testified that it was the leaf litter in that area -- that`s right, leaf litter, she testified, was the reason her conclusion and her opinion is that the remains may have only been there for two months. So Jeff Ashton said, OK, do you realize that the hip bone of Caylee Anthony was four inches deep in the muck? And her response was -- and I`m sure this can happen -- she said that a dog can bury a bone, or even a coyote. But as you said, Nancy, there are not coyotes in this part of Florida.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, renowned attorney Raymond Giudice, defense attorney, Atlanta, George Parnham, the famed defense attorney who represented Andrea Yates and many other high-profile defendants.
Ray Giudice, you know what? Maybe it was a dingo dog or Sasquatch or Bigfoot or a martian! You know what? I really think -- you know, I see you laughing, but here`s the deal.
RAYMOND GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, I...
GRACE: The defense can`t laugh. They`ve done it now. They can sit there and laugh in open court. What were they thinking?
GIUDICE: Well, you know, look...
GRACE: A coyote did it?
GIUDICE: We`re seeing is an entire team, not just Mr. Baez, their incompetency. These experts -- and they don`t have a lot to work with, the defense experts, but they are not prepared for their direct exam. The direct exams are sloppy. And as you know, a sloppy direct exam leads to an effective cross. And the prosecution has been eviscerating the defense experts.
GRACE: To George Parnham. Everyone, you know George Parnham. We have watched him many, many times. George, thank you for being with us. George...
GEORGE PARNHAM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes?
GRACE: ... maybe I overdid it when I would prepare direct and cross- examinations. Maybe I overdid it because I would write out by hand every question I intended to ask, and beside each question, if I wanted to introduce evidence related to that question, I would have it in the left- hand column.
GIUDICE: You know, it just seems as if these witnesses, as Raymond Giudice has pointed out, either are unprepared or they think they can pull the wool over the jury`s eyes. Come on, George! A coyote left her bones there?
PARNHAM: Well, Nancy, I agree with my colleague. I think that the witnesses obviously are unprepared. They have not been properly rehearsed, if you will, for potential questions by the prosecution on cross- examination. But that goes to the credibility of that one particular expert. And that expert, based on what I saw, is just unbelievable. And they`re going to have a tough time with that type of testimony, convincing this jury or hanging this jury at the end of this presentation of the evidence.
GRACE: To C.W. Jensen, retired Portland police captain, joining us tonight from Phoenix. C.W., see, we`re all talking like lawyers, or at least they are, Raymond Giudice and George Parnham. And here`s the deal. The jury is not lawyers. The jury -- regular people like us. They`re listening. And they hear this defense witness say a coyote put Caylee`s bones there? A coyote`s running around the Anthony neighborhood? It`s a residential -- a nice residential community. There are not even coyotes in Florida. And this is an outrage, to say that a coyote somehow left Caylee`s remains there, half buried, her hip bone, in the muck, as Jean Casarez pointed out. It`s crazy! It`s offensive!
C.W. JENSEN, FMR. PORTLAND POLICE CAPTAIN: Well, I`ve testified as a witness in dozens and dozens of high-profile homicide cases, and as a witness, you have to be prepared. And you also have to talk to the jury and try to get them to understand what you`re saying. If you see them looking like they don`t understand it, then you`ve got to clarify yourself.
GIUDICE: And just listening to this stuff, I think that when they get to the closing arguments, the prosecution is going to settle in on what`s really important here. So I have a lot of confidence in them.
GRACE: To Steve Helling, writer with "People" magazine, also in court today, joining us from Orlando. Steve Helling, I mean, did the jury get it? And Liz, in a moment, I want you to play that sound for the viewers again tonight. Did they get that they`re saying a dog or a coyote buried Caylee`s bone?
STEVE HELLING, "PEOPLE": Absolutely. The jury heard it. They -- actually, I was watching jurors number 11 and 12. They kind of smirked at each other when that was said. They seemed to have drummed up a little bit of a friendship there. Those two seemed to feel like this was just a ridiculous thing that was being said out there in court, and I don`t think they bought it at all. I don`t think anybody bought it. But we saw it in their faces.
GRACE: And to you, Natisha Lance. You were in court today, as well. I mean, it is just offensive to suggest that a coyote got Caylee and buried her bones there. I mean, that even flies in the face of the defense story that it was an accidental drowning. I mean, how do you go from accidental drowning to, A coyote buried my baby?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes, Nancy, it didn`t make a whole lot of sense. And this is after this witness had said that she had studied botany in semitropical areas for 30 years. But unfortunately, it didn`t seem as if she knew about the animal life in this area.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A bone, a hip bone, was buried in four inches of what is referred (ph) to as muck, which I assume is wet -- I assume you call wet humus. Wouldn`t that indicate pretty conclusively that the skull had been there a whole lot longer than two weeks?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Or a dog buried it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A dog buried -- a dog buried it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They do, as do coyotes. I don`t know if you have those here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, we`re not blessed with coyotes.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She saw George Anthony holding Caylee in his arms.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So many of you that never got a chance to hug her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is not any evidence of anything other than...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She drowned in her family`s swimming pool.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was a pool in the house, which creates a possibility of drowning.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What record evidence is there that the victim drowned? The answer is none.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here we go again. We got a tale of two cities.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you had duct tape laced over someone`s face and mouth, would you still expect to find DNA?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You would expect quite a lot of DNA there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The likelihood of finding any intact DNA is extremely remote.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The conditions which you describe are very bad for DNA.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You just can`t ever know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The two of you will never agree on anything.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live in Orlando at the Orange County courthouse, bringing you the latest on the case of tot mom, Casey Anthony, charged in the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl, Caylee.
And outrage in the courtroom today as a stunned jury hears the defense claim it wasn`t tot mom that left her daughter`s remains to be found skeletonized, half buried in muck, it was a coyote. On top of that, we learn it is now revealed that tot mom housed just feet away from a female inmate whose toddler boy died in the same exact way tot mom claims Caylee died.
GIUDICE: Out to Jean Casarez. The similarities are stunning. Did tot mom copycat this woman`s story? Because after she`s in jail, for a short while this woman is just a few feet away from her. The woman did discuss what happened to her son. She was not booked for that reason. She had a string of petty offenses. Her son`s drowning was deemed an accident. So she`s talking about this with the other female inmates behind bars, and suddenly, tot mom has the idea and comes up with the accidental drowning that we hear in opening statement.
GIUDICE: What happened, Jean?
CASAREZ: Well, that`s the issue. That`s the question. And prosecutors are investigating it right now. They don`t know that it`s going to be a part of their rebuttal case. But her name is April Whalen. And it was back in 2007, on Christmas Day, her little son went missing for 20 minutes around the house. Everybody is frantically looking for him. And his grandfather found him floating in the pool. What was done -- they called 911 immediately, but it was too late. It was determined to be an accidental drowning.
GIUDICE: And April has told investigators that she did tell other inmates about her son`s drowning, but she did not speak personally to Casey Anthony.
GRACE: But the reality is, these houses are just 10 miles apart. She was feet away from tot mom behind bars when she goes over and over the story.
GIUDICE: Let`s take a look at it, Matt Zarrell. They`re both in the same area, almost one of the same neighborhoods, just a few miles apart. They`re both aboveground pools. Both are toddlers. Both families at home at the time of the drowning. Both women claim the grandfather finds the child. In both scenarios, the child wanders away from the family. It`s as if she took the story verbatim, Matt.
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes, Nancy, it is very interesting. And what we`ve learned from the jail is that she was housed near Casey Anthony for a couple of days in July of 2009. And one thing that`s really important to note is we don`t know how she got the information, but Alan Moore (ph) from the jail admits the walls are not soundproof. She could have easily overheard Whalen talking to another inmate.
GRACE: Matt! Matt! Matt! Have you ever been in a jailhouse, Matt? Go ahead and tell me no.
ZARRELL: No, thank God.
GRACE: OK. Let me tell you something, Matt. You can hear everything that everybody else is saying! All night long, you hear it.
GIUDICE: Here are the two houses at issue. Did tot mom copycat a female inmate`s story and then transpose it onto Caylee`s murder? The stories are almost identical. And remember, there is no coincidence in criminal law.
GIUDICE: We are live in Orlando, bringing you the latest and taking your calls.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Caylee Anthony died on June 16th, 2008, when she drowned in her family`s swimming pool.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The name of the witness is April Whalen. Apparently, her child died in a swimming pool and was found by the child`s grandfather.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And anything Casey could do to protect her child she did, including living a lie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ms. Whalen was in an adjacent cell to Ms. Anthony for a very brief period of time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Something`s not right with this girl.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. We are live at the Orlando courthouse, Orange County, bringing you the latest in the trial of tot mom, Casey Anthony.
A stunning new theory emerges from the defense that it was not tot mom who left her daughter`s remains to be found skeletonized and half buried in the muck, it was a coyote. This as we learn a fellow inmate of tot mom`s son died, drowned in the back yard pool, exactly like tot mom claims Caylee did.
Out to Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session." Jean, I heard the prosecution discussing it in court. This suggests to me that there may very well be a rebuttal case by the state.
CASAREZ: There is going to be a rebuttal case, Nancy. And let me tell you one thing it`s going to focus on is the day of June 16th. Prosecutor Linda Drane Burdick said there were computer searches that morning that rebut the theory of accident from the opening statement by the defense.
GRACE: And Jean, are there also some IMs -- instant messages -- that they say rebut that theory that Caylee was found drowned in the pool that morning, some instant messages like, Hey, dude, what`s going on? At the same time...
CASAREZ: We heard that, too.
GRACE: ... Caylee (SIC) says Caylee was drowned?
CASAREZ: Instant messages and computer searches showing pictures of the shot girls.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Chloroform was her babysitter.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was an unfit mother.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: She is not a murderer.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A red flag for homicide.
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: Oh, my gosh.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you visit the area in which the remains of Caylee Marie Anthony were found?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The thing about hair testing --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Which one of these peaks represents the chloroform?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This peak here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is no, you know, certainty with how much drug someone needs to be given or needs to take.
CASEY ANTHONY: Exactly.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Before it will show up as positive in their hair.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me predict you a hypothetical that the body of a young child.
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: A beautiful little girl.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The body is very decomposed.
CINDY ANTHONY: We`re talking about a 3-year-old little girl.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The duct tape.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you telling the jury that the proximity of this tape to rotting flesh --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Somewhere located on the lower half of this face.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- does not increase the likelihood that the DNA on the tape would decompose as well?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If the tape was on the body, it is decomposing, it increased the chances that the DNA on the tape would also decompose.
CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know what the hell is going on.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I didn`t take the photograph.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Photos like that, Casey partying it up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With me was Patrick McKenna, the photographer.
CASEY ANTHONY: The media is going to have a freaking field day with this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And he took photographs of me at the crime scene. Not crime scene -- excuse me. Recovery site.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Welcome back. We are live in the Orlando courthouse bringing you the latest in the trial of tot mom Casey Anthony. On trial for the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl, Caylee.
Today we find out more and more about the crime scene where Caylee`s skeletonized bones were found. The defense actually bringing in evidence of a syringe with chloroform in it, stuffed into the paper cardboard cylinder of a paper towel stack, inside a Gatorade bottle.
Let`s see the shot, Liz. Bringing on evidence of chloroform at the scene. We are taking your calls live.
Also, we learn today, Alexis Tereszcuk, that the witness on the stand says that the stench of a dead body in tot mom`s trunk wasn`t a dead body at all, it was most likely caused by cabbages, onions, or bleach.
But, Alexis, correct me if I am wrong, there is absolutely no evidence that cabbage, onions or bleach were ever in tot mom`s trunk. What are they talking about?
ALEXIS TERESZCUK, REPORTER, RADAROLINE.COM: You`re exactly right. They said that maybe it could have come from these vegetables that, you know, maybe in another place, four million miles away, that that would smell like that.
But in this case, those vegetables weren`t there. That trash wasn`t there. And so their claim is completely unfounded. You`re exactly right.
GRACE: Natisha Lance, you`ve been in court all day as well. I don`t understand why the defense is bringing on an expert to say the smell was really caused by cabbage or an onion when there is no evidence that any of that was found in the car or was ever even in the car.
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Right. And another thing to keep in mind, too, Nancy, is this witness took his air sample test from that trunk of the car after the liner had already been removed, four days after the liner have been removed. He did say that there was chloroform, there were three compounds that were in there, that would be a part of human decomposition. But he could not conclusively say that it was human decomposition.
GRACE: We also heard a lot about soil samples in court. We heard that Caylee`s hair was tested for a cat tranquilizer, a drug used on the party scene.
To Dr. Zhongxue Hua, Union County medical examiner, chief medical examiner, and DNA expert, explain to me what this cat tranquilizer is and how people use it on the party scene.
DR. ZHONGXUE HUA, UNION COUNTY, NJ, MEDICAL EXAMINER: It basically caused you hallucinated and the main effect can put you down, put you into sleep and that`s sort of -- that`s the main purpose. Sedative purposes. And the bottom line is, it was not being founded. But again you interpret the data, should be very careful.
The toxicologist never found a specimen, doesn`t mean the person that be the exposed person, that`s an entirely different question here.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Darryl Cohen, Atlanta, John Burris, San Francisco.
So, Darryl Cohen, where in the world would special K cat tranquilizer come from? The party scene. Who is the party girl? Tot mom. I mean, two and two still equals four, right?
DARRYL COHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, this is so redundant it`s ridiculous. The defense is just setting a trap larger and larger with the quick sand. Of course, it comes in the party scene. But who`s been partying? Caylee? Casey? Who has it been? What happened? Where is the chloroform? Why did it happen? Was it on the -- was it on the Internet?
Everything that the defense is doing is falling into the prosecution trap. They never had a theory of -- a realistic theory of a defense. All they`re doing is throwing in the kitchen sink and hoping that some juror may say, my gosh, she didn`t do it. Not going to happen.
GRACE: To John Burris, renowned defense attorney out of San Francisco.
John, so far the defense has largely brought back on state`s witnesses. Now I think they did score some points with one witness they brought on late in the day today, Karen Lowe. She came on originally for the state to talk about the death band around Caylee`s hair that was found in tot mom`s trunk which shows post mortem. Caylee`s hair and tot mom`s trunk along with that putrid smell.
But today the defense used her to talk about duct tape. They compared duct tape found at the scene to duct tape found in the home and said it really didn`t match. Now that scores a point for the defense at least.
JOHN BURRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it`s a -- you know, a small point in one sense. Look, the way I see what`s going on here is no matter what they`ve said in terms of the opening statement, all this is about is acknowledging that they got to deal with all the scientific evidence that points in the direction of her being the killer here.
And in order to do that, they`re trying to demonstrate if they can that there are other explanations for this and that it does not necessarily point to a first-degree murder. She was a party girl, she was trying to do stuff to get her child to go to sleep while she`s out partying, and she OD`d and then she panicked.
GRACE: Put him up.
BURRIS: And then she did all this other kind of stuff. So I don`t think what this evidence is, is really pointing to the fact that she in fact is the person who did it, but I think she`s raising real questions about whether or not this is a first-degree murder case.
GRACE: OK. Got it. I heard you. I heard you when you said that the first time.
Darryl Cohen, here`s the deal. We three lawyers, we know what malice aforethought means. We know that you can form intent to murder, to kill, in the twinkling of an eye, the blink of an eye. The time it takes you to raise a gun and pull the trigger, that`s enough time to form intent under the law.
It does not have to be a drawn-out plan such as poisoning someone every day for a period of months. So in the time it takes to put the chloroform on the rag, put it over the child`s face, or duct tape the face, or put chloroform in the syringe, that, under the law, is enough time, is it not, Darryl Cohen, to form intent, requisite for murder one? Darryl?
COHEN: Absolutely. What she did was clearly intent under the law. The chloroform, the tape, everything else, she did it. Absolutely.
BURRIS: Well, you know, I disagree with this totally, OK? I hear the point. But that doesn`t necessarily mean it`s first-degree murder intent.
GRACE: We are live outside the Orlando courthouse bringing you the latest in the trial of tot mom Casey Anthony. A stunning evidence emerges today. Caylee`s hair being tested for a cat tranquilizer.
Not only that, we learned tot mom giggling over a, quote, "hot guy" on Facebook, flirting with her, in the days after Caylee goes missing, referring to Caylee in the past tense, repeatedly. And insisting that Lee, her brother, is the biological father of Caylee. Of course the tests prove that`s not true.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The defendant has entered a plea of not guilty.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Guilty. Guilty. Guilty.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So the absence of soil is meaningless in terms of establishing someone`s presence or lack of presence at the area.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The car to clarify, clear as day, I smelled it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Speculating that remains -- the skull had been there a whole lot longer than two weeks?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Or a dog buried it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A dog -- a dog buried it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They do. As do coyotes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can tell you some horror stories.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you, sir, open the skull?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I did. Duct tape was perhaps placed there to hold the lower jaw in place.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What other kind of meaningless work do you do at the FBI?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t feel that any of my work is meaningless.
CASEY ANTHONY: It`s just as (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It must have been homicide.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That is the only logical conclusion.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. We`re outside the Orange County courthouse, bringing you the latest in the trial of tot mom Casey Anthony on trial for the alleged murder of 2-year-old Caylee, her only child, her daughter.
To forensic anthropologist, joining us from Florida Gulf Coast University, Heather Walsh-Haney. What was the defense strategy today, Heather?
HEATHER WALSH-HANEY, FORENSIC ANTHROPOLOGIST, FLORIDA GULF COAST UNIVERSITY: I think that Baez was trying to exploit the CSI effect. He`s trying to dazzle that jury with all of this forensic science that indicates nothing. And then leaves them with the thought that if there is nothing there, it couldn`t have happened.
Well, by analogy, I do cases all the time where it comes out where we have a perpetrator actually confess to the crime, let`s say multiple stab wounds to the chest and arm, and I found no evidence of the stab wounds to the chest and arm because the blade didn`t hit those bones.
That doesn`t mean it didn`t happen. And by extension then, Baez is exploiting that CSI effect. But I think Ashton has done a good job to bring everything back to the simplest answer and to look at the facts that are there.
GRACE: To Robert Hayes, president of Geoforensics, certified forensic geologist.
Robert, thank you for being with us. Today the defense put up a forensic geologist that stated there was no common soil between shoes found in the Anthony home and soil found at the scene where Caylee`s body, her bones were found.
What does that mean to you, Robert?
ROBERT HAYES, PRESIDENT, GEOFORENSICS, CERTIFIED FORENSIC GEOLOGIST: Well, it doesn`t mean a whole lot, frankly. The shoes may have -- may or may not have been present at the crime scene. If there were any soil in them may have fallen off.
GRACE: Hold on, hold on, hold on. Am I actually seeing brand-new shoes that have never been worn? Am I actually seeing strappy party shoes as if that would be taken to a lucky crime scene? Hello? Of course not.
But back to you, Robert Hayes. I wish you could see these photos. Go ahead.
HAYES: OK. Yes, a lot of times the material, as I said, just wears off, falls off or gets contaminated. It just becomes too difficult to compare. May not have enough soil on shoes or clothing. In other cases, it can be a very useful method of -- or relating the soil and clothing to a crime scene.
I could tell you about -- give you an example. There was a rape case several years ago where the police had a suspect with -- and the suspect`s pants had soil at the knees. And the sample -- the forensic geologist sampled the soil at the knees and each knee had a different type of soil.
GRACE: OK. So I guess the bottom line on that is you can`t always rely on a soil sample. But the defense did put up an expert today in soil saying the soil found at the crime scene was not found on shoes taken from the Anthony home.
To Detective Lieutenant Steve Rogers, Nutley, New Jersey, police department, former member of the FBI.
Thanks for being with us, Steve. Steve, we also have the emergence of an inmate that was housed one cell down from tot mom. Her son, her toddler son died exactly the same way as tot mom says Caylee died. They were there at the same time. Apparently tot mom overheard the story. What do you make of that?
DET. LT. STEVE ROGERS, NUTLEY, NEW JERSEY, POLICE DEPARTMENT: Well, when in prison, inmates have a habit of talking and listening. And in this case, tot mom did a lot of listening and I believe that she took this other inmate`s story and now she`s going to try to apply this to her defense.
And the police will certainly look at audio and video footage and talk to this other inmate and get to the bottom of this.
GRACE: You know, there may very well be audio footage of what is happening behind bars. That`s an excellent point, Steve.
Joining me right now is special guest Dr. Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist out of New York. You`ve been watching this from the very beginning. Weigh in, Doctor.
PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I think that Jose Baez has really caught some of the psychological and logical chaos that lives inside of Casey Anthony`s head.
The defense case is not coherent. It`s not logical. There are big holes in it. I think this young woman really shows the cardinal signs of being a psychopath, Nancy. There is a failure in not just conscience and judgment, but in attachment.
The way that Conroy described her giggling and there was another story she told about how there was a baby picture of Caylee on Facebook, Casey Anthony reportedly said to her, yes, but look at my baby pictures.
This is a narcissistic psychopath. And I don`t think that the defense is doing her any good.
GRACE: Well, hold on, Dr. Saunders. Take a listen to this.
Diane Dimond with us, special correspondent, "Newsweek" and "Daily Beast." What can you tell me about when the media began leaving the house? Remember when tot mom was arrested on the -- writing her friends checks for booze and lingerie, caught on video? And so she gets out of jail for that, the house is swarmed with media, but then they start leaving.
DIANE DIMOND, SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT, NEWSWEEK, THE DAILY BEAST: Right. This is all, of course, from the eyewitness inside Tracy Conroy, the woman who looked for Leonard Padilla, and was inside for nine days and nights. She said that they would watch the media outside, but one time there was a thunderstorm and Casey went to the window and looked at the media trucks, but then looked up to the sky and said with a little pout, oh, no helicopters today.
You know, it is -- I think Dr. Saunders got the gist of it exactly, I think I got a real sense of a narcissist who, while you`re looking at baby pictures of Caylee, she comes over with her baby book and covers up Caylee`s book and says, yes, but look at mine. Look at my tattoo. What did you hear that the media said about me?
You know, it`s -- there`s something mental going on there and it`s too bad, I think, that Baez didn`t grab on to that for her defense.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was some damage to some bones, some jawbones.
CASEY ANTHONY: It is sickening.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On the leg, and other longer bones.
G. ANTHONY: Look at what you have done.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And then we found bones with some flesh on them, and they go ahead and chew on those parts.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How come everybody is saying that you`re not upset?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is ashes to ashes and dust to dust. But you`re really in the back.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That you`re not crying? That you showed no care.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can find when you open up the skull.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Of where Caylee isn`t --
CASEY ANTHONY: Because I`m not sitting here (EXPLETIVE DELETED) crying every two seconds.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can find a fracture on the inside, but nothing on the outside.
CASEY ANTHONY: It`s because I have to stay composed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And this is the dust which is remaining.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live at the Orlando courthouse bringing you the latest in the trial of tot mom Casey Anthony on trial for the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl, Caylee.
We are taking your calls live. To Holly in Ohio. Hi, Holly.
HOLLY, CALLER FROM OHIO: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for taking my call.
GRACE: Thank you for calling in, dear. What`s your question?
HOLLY: I have a question. In my opinion Jose Baez is way in over his head. I`ve heard in the past that Casey cannot fire him, but can the judge not step in and politely say you need to step aside and let somebody else handle this so that it does not result in a mistrial or inadequate defense claim?
GRACE: What about it, Darryl Cohen?
COHEN: Well, it`s tough at this time, Nancy. It is a great thought, and should have happened a long time ago, but keep in mind Jose Baez has help, there are other lawyers there.
Yes, he is in over his head, but at this point if the judge would do that, the best possible chance for reversal would be ineffective accounts, ineffective assistance of counsel that took place from the very beginning to now when the case is almost over.
GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Specialist Brian Kubik, 20, Harker Heights, Texas, lost his life after injuries in Iraq. Died at a military hospital June. Awarded Bronze Star, Purple Heart. Wanted to enlist since a little boy just like his father. With a smile that lit up a room.
Never met a stranger. Remembered for generosity. Leaves behind parents Barbara and Jim, brothers Scott, sister Dana.
Brian Kubik, American hero.
Thank you to our guests but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night. We will be outside the Orange County courthouse in our own way seeking justice for Caylee.
I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern and until then, good night, friend.
END
