Return to Transcripts main page

NANCY GRACE

Pastor`s First and Second Wife Turn up Dead after Alleged Affair with Secretary` Pregnant Babysitter Missing after Fight with Boyfriend; Pastor Accused of Murdering Wife

Aired September 28, 2010 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, upstate, Pennsylvania. A beloved Methodist minister suffers crushing heartbreak not once, twice. His first wife of 30 years, the mother of his three children, Jewel Schirmer, dies in a home accident, and now the second wife mangled to death in a car crash.

Bombshell tonight. Prosecutors say that tragic car crash was a fake, people! It was staged. Police claimed the renowned minister, the Reverend Arthur Schirmer, murdered second wife Betty Jean. Police say her injuries do not match his version of the crash.

And as we go to air tonight, in a stunning twist, the DA launches a brand-new investigation into the first wife`s death 11 years ago, noting 14 blows to the head, the neck, the face, more blows covering the arms, the legs, even the anus. Now, that`s some fall down the stairs. And now, 11 years later, the same preacher does it again? Now, wait a minute! Could it have anything to do with the church secretary, the one he was sleeping with?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A retired pastor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Arthur Schirmer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A pastor at Reeders United Methodist Church.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Charged with murder.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Arrested by state police.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say he killed his wife and then faked a car accident to try and cover it up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He says a deer jumped onto the road. He swerved and hit a guardrail.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Schirmer was uninjured, but his wife, 58-year- old Betty Jean Schirmer, was fatally injured.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The death of Betty Schirmer was initially ruled an accident.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Detectives now say he staged the accident.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her injuries and the damage to the car were not consistent with what husband Arthur Schirmer claimed happened.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And accident reconstruction experts also say the crash could not have killed Mrs. Schirmer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now officials say they plan to reopen the investigation into the death of Schirmer`s first wife, Jewel.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jewel died of blunt force trauma.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She died from a fractured skull from a fall down a flight of stairs.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, a beautiful pregnant baby-sitter, Gisela Andrade (ph), goes missing. Where is the pregnant baby-sitter Gisela?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The family of a missing Mt. Vernon woman is seeking the public`s help. Thirty-two-year-old Gisela Andrade set off from home and never returned after allegedly getting into an argument with her boyfriend. Gisela, who is four months pregnant and diabetic, reportedly called her twin sister Saturday night, saying she planned to return home. Authorities are desperately searching for answers as to what happened and believe Gisela may be traveling in a vehicle, a white Toyota Venza (ph) with license plate number EWX 3056.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. A beloved Methodist minister suffers crushing heartbreak, not once, twice. First wife, 30 years, the mother of his three children, Jewel Schirmer, dies in a home accident, and now the second wife mangled to death in a car crash. Prosecutors say that tragic car crash was a fake. It was staged. They claim the renowned minister, the Reverend Arthur Schirmer, murdered not only his first wife but his second wife, Betty Jean.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say a retired Pennsylvania pastor killed his wife.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you want to say anything about what happened that day?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And then staged car a accident to try and cover it up.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Former pastor Arthur Schirmer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Charged with murder and evidence tampering.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These are serious charges.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you sure you don`t want to say anything at all?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Paramedics were called after a passerby noticed Schirmer and his wife in their car pressed against a guardrail.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Betty Jean wasn`t wearing a seatbelt.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He says a deer jumped onto the road. He swerved to miss the animal.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators reveal the damage to the car and the injuries sustained by Betty.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The head injuries were too severe.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were not consistent with Schirmer`s account of the accident.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Betty Jean Schirmer was badly injured from severe head trauma.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When police searched the Methodist church where Schirmer and Betty lived.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: they found a trail of Betty Jean`s blood.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dried on the floor of the garage.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say all of this now has them looking at the death of Schirmer`s first wife.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Schirmer told police he found Jewel Schirmer dead at the bottom of the basement stairs.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls. Did a beloved Methodist minister murder not one but two wives, the alleged murders occurring 11 years apart? And why wasn`t the first murder detected, with 14 blows to the head, the face, the neck, blows covering the arms, the hands, the legs, the shins, even her anus? That`s some fall down the stairs!

Out to you, Bob Matthews, news director, WSBG radio, joining us out of Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania. What do we know, Bob?

BOB MATTHEWS, WSBG RADIO (VIA TELEPHONE): Well, Nancy, late-breaking developments. Earlier today, we had a preliminary hearing for Pastor Schirmer. It lasted four-and-a-half hours. Nine witnesses appeared before (INAUDIBLE) district judge (INAUDIBLE) and after everything was said and done, he found there was enough evidence to bind over to trial in Monroe County court murder and related charges, including tampering with evidence.

GRACE: Joining us is Bob Matthews, the news director at WSBG radio. Also with us, Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session." Jean, first of all, let`s go in reverse chronological order, Jean. First of all, let`s take the second wife. That would be Betty Jean. They were married how many years, seven years?

JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": Yes. That`s right. This is the pastor`s wife. This is the beloved of the Poconos pastor`s wife. They were driving down a country road. He says he swerved so he didn`t hit that deer, going 45 to 55 miles an hour, and hit that guardrail. And that`s when he says that she died. Well, he said it was an accident, but prosecutors are saying now it`s going to trial, and Nancy, because the injuries of Betty Jean, as immense as they were, just don`t comply with what the pastor is saying.

GRACE: Well, joining us right now is an accident reconstructionist. It is Rusty Haight, the director of Safety Collision Institute. Very quickly, Rusty, of course it doesn`t make sense. You`d have to be deaf, dumb and blind not to figure this out. I mean, the woman, Betty Jean, has massive bleeding. She`s in a pool of blood. She`s barely breathing, many, many blows to the head. I`m talking about the second wife, Betty Jean. There`s her autopsy. He doesn`t even have a scratch!

RUSTY HAIGHT, ACCIDENT RECONSTRUCTION EXPERT (via telephone): No, Nancy. Doesn`t make any sense. How`re you doing?

GRACE: I`m good. What do you make of it?

HAIGHT: Well, it doesn`t make any sense at all. There`s just too many injuries for the kind of crash they`re describing and the type of car, you know, where I hear things like, well, the seatbelt was supposed to have come undone and that sort of thing. Just none of it -- none of it pieces - - you know, works together. None of it makes any sense at all. I mean, deer jump out in front of cars all the time, but we don`t run into -- gosh, we don`t run into guardrails and then have people repeatedly bang their head on the inside of the car. It doesn`t work that way.

GRACE: You know, while I`ve got you, Rusty -- joining us out of San Diego -- Rusty Haight, I remember a state trooper told me one of my first years as a felony prosecutor, he said, Nancy, in 35 years of being a state trooper, I have never pulled a dead body from under a seatbelt, never once. What did they say, Rusty, about the seatbelt coming undone? I`ve never heard of that.

HAIGHT: Yes, I heard some of the stories that -- I guess the pastor had passed on that his wife`s seatbelt had come undone and that`s how she was able to move around inside the car. It just doesn`t work. It doesn`t make sense.

GRACE: To Matt Zarrell, our producer on the story. What more than you tell me, Matt? I want to talk first about the second wife. That would be Betty Jean Schirmer. Now, he married her after the death of first wife, Jewel Schirmer, the mother of his three children. Now, that`s another one. It`s, like, staring you right in the face. This woman is covered in contusions, covered in blows. Even her anus has wounds to it. And they said she fell down the stairs? That is a load of BS. And I hope you`re listening, Pennsylvania! That`s a technical legal term.

Matt, back to Betty Jean. What more can you tell me about the crash?

MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, here`s what`s interesting. When paramedics arrived, it was not Schirmer who called 911. It was a passerby who came by.

GRACE: Wait, wait, stop, stop, stop! Put Zarrell up. Put him up! Tell me that again.

ZARRELL: Schirmer did not call 911. It was a passerby who called 911.

GRACE: Go ahead.

ZARRELL: Now, Schirmer had a cell phone on him. And when paramedics arrived, they noticed immediately that something was wrong. Her side of the -- her side of the car is covered in blood. She`s got contusions everywhere. They say that her head injuries don`t match the accident. There`s no rear-end damage to the vehicle. They believe the vehicle was probably going about 20 miles an hour. And they have every idea that this was staged. They do not believe this was a legitimate accident.

GRACE: You know what, Matt? I can just see him edging down the bank toward the guardrail so he wouldn`t get hurt, as his wife is still breathing, dying beside him. At least, that`s what police are alleging tonight. And Matt, what can you tell me about blood found in the home?

ZARRELL: Yes, what happened is that police began to investigate. They execute a search warrant on the home. Now, Schirmer lives inside the church at the time. He is the pastor of the Reeders Methodist united Methodist church. He lives there with his wife, Betty. They search the home and the garage. They find blood.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Latoya, South Carolina. Hi, Latoya.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello.

GRACE: Hi, dear. You`re on. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, yes. My question is about the first wife. Was he a person of interest in the first murder, or did they just assume that she fell down the stairs (INAUDIBLE)

GRACE: Oh, oh, Latoya, I hope you`re sitting down. Actually, you better lay down for this one. There was no person of interest in the first case because they decided that was an accident, Latoya -- an accident!

Explain that one to me, Jean Casarez. It reminds me of the Michael Peterson (ph) case you and I covered together, where the woman is just beaten to smithereens. The wife is at the bottom of the staircase. And then we find out he`s got another dead girlfriend back home in Germany with the same number of contusions to her head.

Tell me about Jewel Schirmer, his first wife. They were married 30 years.

CASAREZ: This was determined to be an accident. She was found dead at the bottom of the staircase. It was believed even by authorities that she fell down the staircase. But Nancy, the lacerations to the head, the skull fractures were immense. They have opened up that case now in light of this second wife. And Nancy, look at the similarities. First wife, fractures to the head. Second wife, fractures to the skull.

GRACE: Hey, Jean, don`t move. Liz, put that body, the body of Jewel Schirmer, back up there. Look, 14 separate impact injuries to head and face, lacerations to head, abrasions, contusions, skull fracture. Jean, do I still have 20/20 vision? Do I see dilation, abrasions and bruising to the anal area? Are you telling me he sodomized her before he killed her?

CASAREZ: They are saying these injuries came before death, that`s right. And that`s exemplified because of the blood that was pooled and spattered at their home.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Paramedics were called after a passerby noticed Schirmer and his wife in their car pressed against a guardrail. Investigators reveal the damage to the car and the injuries sustained by Betty were not consistent with Schirmer`s account of the accident. When police search the Methodist church where Schirmer and Betty live, they found blood on the floor of the garage which they believe is Betty`s.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The grand jury indictment against 62-year-old former pastor Arthur Schirmer weaves a complicated web.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Schirmer was pastor at Reeders United Methodist Church.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Schirmer crashed his PT Cruiser into the guardrail.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Schirmer was uninjured but his wife, 58-year-old Betty Jean Schirmer, was fatally injured.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Accident reconstruction experts also say the crash could not have killed Mrs. Schirmer. Her head injuries were too severe to be caused by that slow speed crash.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The indictment goes on to say that information was never forwarded to investigators, so Schirmer`s story was never challenged.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say all of this now has them looking at the death of Schirmer`s first wife.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The coroner testified while Jewel died of blunt force trauma, her death was not consistent with a fall.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police reopened the investigation into that car crash after a man committed suicide in the office here of Reeders United Methodist Church. It turns out, police say, Reverend Schirmer was having an affair with that man`s wife, who worked as an assistant for the church. According to arrest papers, police found Mrs. Schirmer`s blood dried on the floor of the garage of the church parsonage. And accident reconstruction experts also say the crash could not have killed Mrs. Schirmer. Her head injuries were too severe to be caused by that slow-speed crash. Police say all of this now has them looking at the death of Schirmer`s first wife. She died from a fractured skull from a fall down a flight of stairs.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Michelle in Texas. Hi, Michelle. Oh, excuse me. Stacy, Ohio. Hi, Stacy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

GRACE: Hi, love. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I was calling, I wanted to know if maybe he had more women out there that he killed and it hadn`t come up yet.

GRACE: You know what? That`s a very good question. To Bob Matthews, joining us from WSBG radio in Stroudsburg. What do we know now? One lady we haven`t mentioned would be the church secretary. Where does she play into all of this, Bob?

MATTHEWS: Well, apparently, Nancy, he was engaged to her up until -- and we think he still is engaged. But up until a few weeks ago, from what I was told they were still together. And her husband, of course, is -- was mentioned by Andy Maholchik (ph), killed himself apparently over this alleged love affair between the pastor and this woman, who was his helper or his secretary. But she is alive, OK, doing fine, and from what I understand, they`re still engaged.

GRACE: So you`ve got one dead wife, Jewel Schirmer. You`ve got another dead wife, Betty Jean Schirmer. And you`ve got the husband of the church secretary he`s allegedly sleeping with blows his brains out in the church office. Now, that`s some scenario, you know? And you don`t usually hear of all of this when you`re dealing with the Methodists. They`re a pretty quiet bunch. I know. I am one. You don`t hear about all this. And now Schirmer comes along and blows that to hell and back.

OK, out to you Marc Harrold, former police officer, author of "Observations of White Noise," joining us out of D.C. How do we put this case together?

MARC HARROLD, ATTORNEY, FMR. OFFICER, ATLANTA PD: Well, the good news is it looks like they, hopefully, had a lot with the preliminary hearing lasting so long. They`re going to have to go back to the physical evidence, if they can. The good thing is they found that blood. It was still a residence they had access to. Basically, I would go and look for more victims, too. I think this is an MO. I think it`s a pattern, and they`re probably going to find more people from his past that he`s had access to, especially since, you know, his crimes just don`t make any sense. He`s not a savvy criminal. He just got lucky two times and it was ruled an accident.

GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Robin Sax, former prosecutor, author of "Predators and Child Molesters," Atlanta defense attorney Raymond Giudice, New York defense attorney Richard Herman. All right, Ray. Go ahead. Hit me. Tell me why the preacher is innocent.

RAYMOND GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I don`t know why he`s innocent, but I will say I`m very happy he had a lengthy preliminary hearing today. That gave his defense counsel a great opportunity to cross- examine witnesses and get prepared prior to trial. This matter`s going to trial, and he`ll probably get indicted on the other homicide.

GRACE: Richard Herman, I saw you smiling down there in the bottom box on the left. What`s there to smile about? You`ve got -- yes, and it`s going to come right back at you like a boomerang, buddy.

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, the twins are so beautiful. I must tell you, Nancy, the twins are amazing.

(CROSSTALK)

HERMAN: ... soften you up a little. Let`s go.

GRACE: Listen, Richard, did you see the first wife? Now, he has not been charged with the murder of the first wife, all right?

HERMAN: Yes.

GRACE: In fact, that`s going to go to the trial judge to determine if it will be allowed in as a similar transaction. But did you see the dilation and the bruising to the anus before she fell down the stairs?

HERMAN: Nancy, I don`t know what this woman`s history is in that part of her body. But she fell down a flight of stairs, and those bruises are consistent with that flight. But more importantly...

GRACE: Really?

HERMAN: Yes. More importantly...

GRACE: What about it, Robin Sax? Do you think they`re consistent?

ROBIN SAX, FORMER PROSECUTOR: They`re not consistent. And if I were the DA handling this case, I would be charging this also. That`s the one way sure to get the prior act in, is to charge both of them. There`s no statute of limitations. I say charge him for both and find more.

GRACE: This Methodist minister hid behind his robes for too long. But not anymore, Schirmer!

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Detectives say he staged the accident.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A retired Pennsylvania pastor, Arthur Schirmer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He says a deer jumped onto the road. He swerved to miss the animal and hit a guardrail. His wife, Betty Jean Schirmer, died the next day from severe head trauma. Experts say the crash could not have killed Mrs. Schirmer. Her head injuries were too severe to be caused by that slow-speed crash.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The indictment says a trail of Betty Jean`s blood was later found in the couple`s garage, but Schirmer says that was from an earlier accident.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Murder is bad enough, but to hide behind your pastoral robes makes it stink even worse. Did this Methodist minister, Pastor Schirmer, murder not one but two of his wives? And are there other women dead in his wake?

We are taking your calls. Out to Michelle in Texas. Hi, Michelle.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a question and a comment.

GRACE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK? How long was he seeing the church secretary?

GRACE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And how long were they engaged?

GRACE: OK. Don`t go anywhere. Hold onto Michelle. Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session." What do you know, Jean?

CASAREZ: Well, we know they`re engaged. We know it was a serious relationship. And it seems as though it`s been going on for a while, until the congregant, the husband, found out and committed suicide in the pastor`s office.

GRACE: Hey, Jean -- Jean is joining us live, everybody. Jean, what year did the husband kill himself?

CASAREZ: 2008, I believe, was the date. Yes, 2008 is when the husband committed suicide in the pastor`s office.

GRACE: OK. So back to you, Michelle. I know that the affair has been going on since 2008, and that was when they were finally caught. And I also know that the husband had gone to the pastor and said, Leave my family alone. So at least, say, two-and-a-half years.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, that`s sick!

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say a retired Pennsylvania pastor killed his wife and then staged a car accident to try and cover it up. Sixty-two- year-old Arthur Schirmer has been charged with murder and evidence tampering in the death of his wife, Betty Schirmer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police say a retired Pennsylvania pastor killed his wife.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Want to say anything about what happened that day?

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: And then staged a car accident to try and cover it up.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Former Pastor Arthur Schirmer.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Charged with murder and evidence tampering.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These are serious charges. Are you sure you don`t want to say anything at all?

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Paramedics were called after a passerby noticed Schirmer and his wife in their car pressed against a guardrail.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Betty Jean wasn`t wearing a seatbelt.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: He says a deer jumped on to the road. He swerved to miss the animal.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Investigators reveal the damage to the car and the injuries sustained by Betty.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Her head injuries were too severe.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Were not consistent with Schirmer`s account of the accident.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Betty Jean Schirmer was badly injured from severely head trauma.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: When police searched the Methodist Church where Schirmer and Betty lived, they found a trail of Betty Jean`s blood --

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Dried on the floor of the garage.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police say all of this now has them looking at the death of Schirmer`s first wife.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Schirmer told police he found Jewel Schirmer dead at the bottom of the basement stairs.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: We are taking your calls. What I don`t understand is how the first death was declared to be an accident.

Back to you, Jean Casarez. Joining us live in the field.

Jean, explain to me how the preacher said the wife died while he was out for a jog.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: You know a lot of murders, a lot of --

JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Do you know how many cases I`ve covered --

GRACE: -- somebody is out jogging. Have you noticed that? Everybody is out jogging.

CASAREZ: Yes.

GRACE: And then their spouse dies.

CASAREZ: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: I`m telling my husband all he could do --

CASAREZ: And they come home and they find them. Do you know how many cases --

GRACE: -- is a stationary bike. Forget this jogging thing. Go ahead.

CASAREZ: Do you know how many case I`ve covered that have to do with this accident? They originally believe it`s an accident and then they go forward and finally look into it.

She was found at the bottom of the stairwell. And the husband said it was an accident. That was accepted.

Nancy, do you realize -- that was wife number one. Do you realize that Betty Jean, wife number two, the blood that was found at the home, it was near the top of the stairwell. Staircases involved in both cases.

GRACE: You know, Jean, that`s a fact I hadn`t picked up. I didn`t realize the blood they found near -- in Betty Jean`s home was near the staircase.

Hey, Matt Zarrell, what more can you tell me about the condition, the circumstances surrounding the death of first wife Jewel Schirmer? Don`t tell me 14 blows to the head. I know that. Tell me something else.

MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE STAFFER, COVERING STORY: Well, what is bothering me is we don`t know how exactly police and prosecutors didn`t proceed with the case in the grand jury for Betty`s investigation.

The pathologist who did the autopsy for the first wife testified and he believed it was homicide. He went through a list of injuries. He said these injuries are not consistent with a fall. There`s no way it could have been just from a passive fall down the stairs. He believed it was homicide.

GRACE: OK, Matt Zarrell.

ZARRELL: That was what`s unclear.

GRACE: Matt.

ZARRELL: Yes.

GRACE: As much as I like you, I`m going to have to cross-examine you. Just answer yes or no. All right?

ZARRELL: OK.

GRACE: Was there a cord tied around a limb of her body?

ZARRELL: Yes.

GRACE: What limb of the body was that?

ZARRELL: Her leg.

GRACE: And what type of cord was it?

ZARRELL: It was a Shop-Vac cord, like an electrical cord.

GRACE: Was she found at the bottom of the basement stairs?

ZARRELL: Yes.

GRACE: At that time was it ruled an accident?

ZARRELL: Yes.

GRACE: Do you know any other circumstances surrounding the fall that you are not telling us right now?

ZARRELL: Not that I know of, no.

GRACE: OK. Let`s take a look at that, Jean Casarez. How did she get a cord wrapped around her leg as she was falling down the basement stairs? How did that happen?

CASAREZ: How -- where was the Shop-Vac cord in relation to the Shop-Vac itself, right? I don`t think we know that answer. But, of course, investigators believe the pastor of the United Methodist Church in the Poconos --

GRACE: Jean. Jean.

(CROSSTALK)

CASAREZ: He has to --

GRACE: Jean, do you have to keep saying Methodist, Methodist, Methodist? You are stabbing a dagger in my heart.

OK. All right. Go ahead. Say it again. Methodist.

Let`s go to the line. Sherry, North Carolina. Hi, Sherry. I think I`ve got Sherry in North Carolina. Are you there, dear?

SHERRY, CALLER FROM NORTH CAROLINA: Yes, ma`am, and honey, I am so tickled to talk to you. I have waited to talk to you. You just don`t know how long.

GRACE: Thank you.

SHERRY: And those twins are beautiful. You are beautiful. And you do so much work. And I think that y`all are answering my -- the question that I had to ask was about his first wife. Because I live here in Durham where you and Jean Casarez --

GRACE: That`s right.

SHERRY: -- did the Michael Peterson --

GRACE: Michael Peterson.

SHERRY: Yes, ma`am, and I was in court every day.

GRACE: You are kidding. You know they turned that into a movie and it was a great movie.

SHERRY: They did.

GRACE: The staircase movies. It was on Lifetime.

SHERRY: They did. And I was in court just about every day and talked to her sister, too. But I think you`ve answered my question that they are going to investigate his first -- this is what I wanted to know about his, you know, his first wife because it sounded -- it didn`t sound right.

GRACE: No, it didn`t sound right. And neither did the case you`re talking about with Peterson`s wife that fell down the stairs, like his girlfriend back home in Germany.

You know, let`s take a look at this. Back to you, Jean Casarez. Jean, you have got the first wife dead. About 11 years ago. You`ve got the parishioner, the husband of the church secretary kills himself in the preacher`s office after begging the preacher to leave his family alone. Now you`ve got a dead second wife.

Are they investigating where he`s been over the last, say, 20 or 30 years, if there are other women that have turned up dead?

CASAREZ: You know, Nancy, I think at this point they definitely are. Today in the preliminary hearing they allowed evidence to come in, testimony, in regard to the parishioner that killed himself and also the first wife.

And so you know the intent there is to include this in the trial, if possible, because we know wife number two, that`s going to trial.

GRACE: Back to Rusty Haight, accident reconstructionist, director of Safety Collision Institute.

Rusty, the airbag did not deploy in Betty Jean`s death. The crash against the guardrail. Why?

RUSTY HAIGHT, ACCIDENT RECONSTRUCTIONIST EXPERT, DIR., COLLISION SAFETY INSTITUTE: Well, Nancy, that`s -- you know, that`s the whole thing here. You run into -- you run into a guardrail and you kind of expect, wow, you know, airbags and that sort of thing.

But airbags are there for -- they`re not to replace the seatbelt. They`re there to keep you from hitting your head on stiff objects in the car. And if the system, the airbag control module doesn`t think you need airbags, they`re not going to deploy.

So this crash, as far as the module and the car were concerned, really wasn`t bad enough to deploy airbags. I mean even somebody --

GRACE: Well, I know this. I know this, Rusty Haight. I was returning in the rain from a local jail. I was digging up a similar transaction witness. And I skidded on some -- on the surface. I put on my brake and skid. I was only going about 35 miles an hour.

Skidded into the back of a taxi. It hardly touch -- there was no markings on the taxi, but my airbag deployed. The only injury was the taxicab`s driver. The button on his pants flew off. That was it. That was the whole thing.

But my airbag deployed. It really doesn`t take that much of a jolt to deploy your airbag.

HAIGHT: Not usually. Especially when you`re hitting a stiff object and in this case a guardrail. But, you know, the whole idea is that even if -- even if the woman was, you know, lounging in the seat, she was out of position, she was not belted, and that airbag was to deploy, you know, it would only be one impact.

Multiple impacts to the head, it ain`t going to happen. And then not having an airbag deploy suggests it`s a really, really, really minor crash and then you`re not going to have multiple head injuries, much less probably one substantial one. It just doesn`t make any sense from a crash reconstruction perspective.

GRACE: You know, I`m looking at this pastor. And he`s just not all that. I don`t know what all those women saw in him.

OK, Dr. Patricia Sanders. Boy, do we need a shrink. Weigh in, Doctor.

PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, this guy really should join the Peterson pantheon. We have Scott and we have Drew, all of the multiple ex dead wives.

A psychopath is a psychopath, Nancy, whether they`re in pastoral garb or they`re former policeman like Mr. Drew Peterson.

I wonder if the suicide of his lover`s husband was in fact a suicide. Just speculating. But might he have abused his position as a man of the cloth in convincing this man to kill himself or did he kill him?

GRACE: You know, Dr. Saunders, you have just raised another specter that I as cynical as I can be when it comes to murder had not even considered.

It`s amazing to me, Patricia, how people think that they can go on and on and on and never get caught.

To Dr. Michael Arnall, board certified forensic pathologist joining us out of Denver. Michael, excuse me. Dr. Arnall, can you reconcile all the injuries to the first wife Jewel`s body to an accident falling down the stairs. Is that possible?

DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: No. You have correctly pointed out that the bruises in the rectal area are inconsistent with any type of fall I`ve ever seen down any type of staircase.

GRACE: Hey, Liz. Put up the diagram of the body one more time. I`ve got a specialist, Dr. Michael Arnall, board certified forensic pathologist joining us out of Denver. The abrasions and contusions all along her arms. I`m wondering if they were defensive.

A skull fracture. How can you get 14 separate impact injuries to the head and face just falling down some stairs, Doctor?

ARNALL: It depend on whether she rolled or bounced to the left or right. It`s possible that she could have gotten injuries on her arm as she put them out to defend her body from falling down.

But you are correct. Injuries on the arms and on the hands are precisely where we would expect defense injuries if an individual was attacked with a blunt object as well.

GRACE: Doctor, what about the dilation, abrasions and bruising to her anal area?

ARNALL: OK, that almost assuredly did not come from a fall down the stairs. But I would caution you. We don`t know that those injuries did not occur eight hours later during some type of intimate physical reaction, relationship between she and her husband. And that may be why the pathologist didn`t know what to do with those injuries.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRANDON REISH, PASTOR, ARTHUR SCHIRMER`S ATTORNEY: We are fully prepared to be able to surrender Mr. Schirmer. We anticipated that they were investigating and we`d have to face these accusations. And we`re fully prepared to do so.

GRACE: There has not been -- it has not been named a suspect in the murder of his first wife Jewel.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Mt. Vernon police are searching for a missing 32- year-old woman who is four months pregnant. Reports say no one has had contact with Gizela Andrade since Saturday night when she called her twin sister to vent about a fight with her boyfriend.

Gizela`s family says she never goes more than a few hours without talking to her twin sister and that they are increasingly concerned because she`s diabetic and has been known to go into shock.

Gizela was reportedly last seen driving in a vehicle, a white Toyota Venza with the license plates EWX-3056.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Terry Sheridan, reporting with 1010 WINS at (INAUDIBLE), Connecticut.

Terry, what do you know about the missing pregnant babysitter?

TERRY SHERIDAN, REPORTER, 1010 WINS: Well, I know that Mt. Vernon Police and Westchester County Police, Nancy, are looking for her. I guess they`re hitting the ground, checking the emergency rooms and the hospitals of both Westchester, Northern Bronx, Mt. Vernon borders New York City.

And they are checking the shelters as well as checking the roads for any trace of her. She`s not been seen since Saturday night. She`s not been heard from since Saturday night. And they are very concerned. Especially because of her health issues.

GRACE: Out to you, Marlaina Schiavo, our producer on the story. Marlaina, what more can you tell me about her disappearance?

MARLAINA SCHIAVO, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER, COVERING STORY: Well, I can tell you, Nancy, that she was at a counseling session with her boyfriend. And apparently she came home that night. Had an argument with him and then she went off driving.

She called her sister, too, as her sister describes it, vent. And her sister was encouraging her to come to her house. And although Gizela didn`t ever show up there, she considered going there and then she was never heard from again.

GRACE: OK. Let me get this straight, Marlaina. I thought she told the sister she was planning to go on home.

SCHIAVO: She was -- well, she, was wavering between going home and going to her sister`s house. She didn`t commit to either and then no one ever heard from her again. And then by Sunday, they reported her missing. And no one has seen or heard from her since.

GRACE: I`m going to go to Dr. Michael Arnall, a board certified forensic pathologist, joining us out of Denver. She is diabetic. What effect could that have on the baby?

ARNALL: If her diabetes is not kept under control, if she has out-of- control diabetes, I would have a concern for both her health as well as the baby`s health.

GRACE: Look at this. Extra -- wait, put that back up, Liz. Extra large baby, possibility of a C-section, high blood pressure with preeclampsia, early pre-term birth, low blood sugar or hypoglycemia, miscarriage or stillbirth.

Why would you suffer all of that because you`re diabetic?

ARNALL: Eclampsia, preeclampsia is a condition which can affect mothers during pregnancy. Can be associated with high blood pressure and can result in both the death of the mom and the death of the child if it`s not treated in a prompt fashion.

GRACE: This babysitter, this pregnant babysitter is now missing for days. The boyfriend thought she -- allegedly thought she goes to the sister`s. The sister, I guess, thinks she goes to the boyfriend`s. Nobody reports her missing that night.

We all know the first 72 hours are critical.

Out to the lines. Shaina in Louisiana, hi, Shaina.

SHAINA, CALLER FROM LOUISIANA: Hi, Nancy. I love both of your shows. I have two questions. My first question is, did they interrogate the boyfriend? Did they question him?

And my second question is, why are all these pregnant women coming up missing?

GRACE: Let me tell you something. I was shocked when I learned this. I learned this back in the Laci Peterson case. And I`m pretty sure it was the "New England Journal of Medicine" which is a very well known, renowned, esteemed journal.

They did a study. The number one cause of death amongst pregnant women is homicide.

What about that, Shaina in Louisiana?

First of all, to you, Terry Sheridan, was the boyfriend interrogated?

SHERIDAN: Mt. Vernon Police say yes, the boyfriend has been very cooperative. He is not a suspect and they do not consider foul play. As of yet, in this case.

GRACE: Really?

SHERIDAN: Yes.

GRACE: So, you know, Terry, I can tell by the tone of your voice you`ve never been pregnant before.

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: Listen.

SHERIDAN: No.

GRACE: You don`t just disappear when you are pregnant. You`ve got to go home and lay down. All right? She hasn`t just wandered off. I can tell you that much.

To Dr. Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist, New York. I want you to address, if you can, Shaina in Louisiana`s question regarding she said all these pregnant women turning up missing or dead.

SAUNDERS: Well, as you said, Nancy --

GRACE: She`s right.

SAUNDERS: Yes, the -- one of the leading causes of death in pregnant women is homicide. It was a subsequent study shown that about 20 percent of pregnant women who die die because of murder. And murder at the hands of usually the baby`s father.

That in a fit of rage the baby -- the guy sees the baby as a parasite and kills the mother. Just like that.

GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Robin Sax, Raymond Giudice, Richard Herman.

You know, if someone has preyed upon this girl, do we know -- is that a death penalty state, Ellie? Do we know if that`s a death penalty jurisdiction?

I`m guessing no but tell me, Ellie, in my ear if you can. It`s the New York jurisdiction. Oh, no. Yes. We don`t have the death penalty in New York. They think it`s odious. So we don`t -- I guess the killer if there is one doesn`t have to worry about that.

What about it, Robin Sax?

ROBIN SAX, PROSECUTOR, AUTHOR OF "PREDATORS & CHILD MOLESTERS": Well, here you`ve got potentially a double homicide. If, in fact, there is a foul play and that there is a crime, you have not only the crime against the -- with Gizela but you also have this potential baby.

GRACE: Raymond?

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Let me disagree with Robin. The New York state statute is 24 weeks meaning six months for infanticide, homicide of the infant -- of the unborn fetus.

GRACE: OK. Richard, what about it?

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, we don`t even know if she ran away with another boyfriend or we don`t even know if she was pregnant. Come on. We don`t know anything about this.

GRACE: I do know that she`s pregnant. And I guess your suggestion is that she`s carrying on an affair during her pregnancy.

Hey, thanks, Richard. That will fly with the jury.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Gizela`s family says she never goes more than a few hours without talking to her twin sister and that they are increasingly concerned because she`s diabetic and has been known to go into shock.

Gizela was reportedly last seen driving in a vehicle, a white Toyota Venza with a license plates EWX-3056.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls. Very quickly, back to Terry Sheridan with 1010 WINS.

Terry, I`m going to go back to when she goes missing.

SHERIDAN: Right.

GRACE: Tell me that part again.

SHERIDAN: All right. Well, she was having trouble with her boyfriend. She goes to counseling. They have a counseling session Saturday night. They go back to their house. They get into some sort of an argument.

She gets into a car that belongs to her boyfriend -- a family member of her boyfriend. We`re not sure of the connection yet. And is going to clear her head. Calls her sister. Sister trying to convince her to come to her house in nearby New Rochelle. She`s noncommittal. And that`s the last that they heard from her. So it`s Saturday night.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Quince in New York, hi, Quince.

QUINCE, CALLER FROM NEW YORK: Hi, Nancy. How you doing?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

QUINCE: My question is, I am an identical twin, and I don`t care if me and my boyfriend fight over who picked up the last piece of chicken, I`m calling my twin sister to tell her. And for her not to talk to her sister, her twin --

GRACE: Yes. It`s not right.

QUINCE: It`s not right because I talk to my identical twin every single day. We talk every day. If we go for a whole day without talking, something is wrong. I`m looking for her and she`s looking for me.

GRACE: With me is Quince in New York, and that is one of the big, red flags that are alerting police that something very wrong is happening with Gizela Andrade. Four months pregnant.

Tip line 914-665-2500.

Let`s stop and remember Marine Lance Corporal Dustin Birch, 22, St. Anthony, Idaho, killed Iraq. Loves soccer, saxophone, running track, involved in the Order of the Arrow, a service arm of the Boy Scouts.

Talented debater. Active on the high school newspaper. Loved to read, hike, camp, devoted to his church. He is so young. Leaves behind parents Debby and Paul, brothers Daylon and Tarek. Sister Jessie. Fiancee Melissa.

Dustin Birch, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you, and happy birthday to our star, Dana.

Happy birthday, Dana.

And also, a special good-bye and break a leg to our superstar, Ricky Cruz, who I feature in my books. A long-time friend, I watched him go through school to become a journalist. Onward and upward.

And a special goodnight from Georgia friends of the show, Sherry and Chris, winners of the UNICEF auction. Beautiful on the outside and the inside.

Everybody, I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END