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ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL
Criminal Past of Kidnapping Suspect Comes to Light; Neighbor Shares Insight into Kidnapper
Aired September 3, 2009 - 19:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, ground-breaking developments in the Jaycee Dugard abduction saga. Personal details emerge from Jaycee`s maternal aunt about the amazing and emotional family reunion. Eighteen years ago, Jaycee was tragically ripped from their lives. How has her world been turned upside down since being freed from captivity? What are Jaycee`s two daughters like? What lies ahead for the Dugard family? Questions we`ve all been asking. The answers we`ve been waiting for.
Then, is the high-priced hooker who hooked up with Eliot Spitzer paying the ultimate price while the former governor contemplates another run for public office? Ashley Dupre complains of women looking down at her. She says she`s no worse than many other women targeting men for money. Give me a break. She sold her body for sex to the highest bidder. Is this young girl blind with denial? Is her life that delusional? Or can she get her life back on track? We`ll debate it.
Plus, Michael Jackson finally being laid to rest tonight. With family and his closest friends by his side, the King of Pop will enter his final resting place: an ornate mausoleum, that boasts Da Vinci`s "Last Supper" adorned in stained glass. We have cameras from every angle, reporters, inside sources, scattered throughout Forest Lawn Cemetery. Details of this highly private and secured service you`ll only hear tonight on ISSUES.
ISSUES starts now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, more stunning details about Jaycee Dugard`s life in her backyard prison and her unbelievable reunion with her family. They say, despite being held captive by a convicted rapist, Phillip Garrido, Jaycee somehow taught her daughters to read and write. Her family says the two girls are, quote, "happy and normal." These are children whose only home was a filthy, isolated collection of tents and sheds.
The Dugard family now enjoying the overwhelming reunion they`ve dreamed of for 18 long years. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TINA DUGARD, JAYCEE`S AUNT: Jaycee remembers all of us. She is especially enjoying getting to know her little sister, who was just a baby when Jaycee was taken. Not only have we laughed and cried together, but we`ve spent time sitting quietly, taking pleasure in each other`s company.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s about time that family had something to smile about.
Meanwhile, police say Garrido may have begun his sexual crime spree way back in 1972 when he was just 21. His alleged victim, a 14-year-old girl. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LT. LEONARD ORMAN, ANTIOCH POLICE DEPARTMENT: There was a period of time where she ended up at a motel with Mr. Garrido after being given more barbiturates and basically awoke, found herself there, and was repeatedly raped and sexual assaulted at that time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But the charges in that case were dropped when Garrido`s alleged victim refused to testify. So many missed opportunities to stop this creep years before he raped Katie Callaway Hall and decades before he allegedly snatched Jaycee.
So much to debate with my fantastic panel: criminal defense attorney, former prosecutor Michael Cardoza; Tara Fields, marriage and family therapist; Curtis Sliwa, founder of the Guardian Angels and WABC radio talk show host; and Dan Simon, correspondent for our sister network, CNN, in Antioch, California, where it`s all going down.
Dan, so many new developments on so many fronts. What is the very latest?
DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the latest is that police here in Antioch announcing that Phillip Garrido had been arrested back in 1972 for allegedly raping a then 14-year-old girl. He and somebody else, another man met this girl at a public library. She was eventually lured back to a local motel. The woman woke up, next day realized that she`d been repeatedly raped. Eventually, her parents showed up. They called police. Phillip Garrido arrested for the crime.
But Jane, the case never went to trial, because the girl at the time - - remember, this was back in the `70s -- `70s, and she did not want to testify, which was more common back then than it is today.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And this is part of the outrage of fumbles by the system, as it were. So many mistakes. We`re getting a clear picture of Phillip Garrido`s criminal M.O. leading up to the alleged rape in 1972.
As you just heard, he apparently took two teenage girls back to his Antioch house -- that`s the same town we`re talking about now, people -- where they partied in a backyard shed. Operative words, backyard shed. Sound familiar?
But police say all the records on that 1972 case are MIA. They vanished. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ORMAN: We truly do appreciate the victim contacting us, because the records of this case no longer exist as far as we can determine at this time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Curtis Sliwa, I hate to say it, but it seems like another fumble by law enforcement. Why were those police records about the alleged rape of a 14-year-old girl in Antioch, California, lost? If parole officers had read those details, when they went to visit him and they saw the sheds in the backyard, they might have made a connection.
CURTIS SLIWA, FOUNDER, GUARDIAN ANGELS: Oh, there`s no question. A dollar short, a day late on everything: from parole to the federal system, to the state system to local law enforcement.
But Jane, bottom line is, there were officers who were summoned to that home who never took it upon themselves to go into that back yard to search it for belly button lint.
This is a sexual predator. This is an enemy of society. You would have thought you would turned everything upside down. They search a welfare recipient`s home more thoroughly than they do somebody who has already signaled to us, when he said to them, "I can`t control myself. I have sexually deviant urges to go out and rape children." And we don`t even bother to check from top to bottom, side to side, every square inch of their living space? This is a double disgrazia (ph) on all aspects of law enforcement here.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, I like the way you said that. Say that one more time.
SLIWA: A double disgrazia (ph).
VELEZ-MITCHELL: A disgrace. It`s an international word. We all understand it.
Jaycee`s family, however, says her daughters are educated and bright. They know how to use the Internet. They have their favorite video games. During their reunion, the girls identified constellations in the night sky. They named edible plants. Remember, these kids have never had a formal education. What a testament to their mother`s spirit. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DUGARD: Jaycee did a truly amazing job with the limited resources and education that she herself had. And we are so proud of her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So Tara Fields, you`re the psychotherapist. Jaycee was 14 years old when her first child was born. Cops say that means she was sexually violated at 13, if not before. How was this undoubtedly traumatized young women able to not only survive but raise these two seemingly bright, well-informed, well-adjusted kids?
TARA FIELDS, MARRIAGE AND FAMILY THERAPIST: Well, it`s such an example of -- and this happens all the time -- women that are forced to be adult children. She never got to be a child.
And -- and she was able to put her compassion, her mothering instincts into making sure that she protected these girls and maybe even protected them from the reality of what was going on so she was able to put herself aside to do the right thing with them. And it`s a wonderful thing that now she`s able to get some mothering.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dan Simon, let`s talk about Nancy Garrido`s role. She`s the wife of the alleged rapist-kidnapper. She`s also facing many felony charges. We`re hearing now she worked as a nursing aide during this whole time period while this girl was being held hostage. And there`s a question now as to whether she might have been the one, because she was a nursing aide, to deliver the two girls. What do you know?
SIMON: Well, from what we`re hearing from her past employer where she worked for ten years here in Contra Costa County. She was a registered nurse`s aide, apparently performed her work very well. She left in 1998. She left not for doing anything poorly. She just apparently deciding to venture out and do something else.
But Jane, something else that I think is interesting is, you know, her attorney made the rounds on all the morning shows yesterday. And I think we started to hear the ground work for a defense. He used the word "victim," used the word "victim" while describing her, suggesting strongly that she was under Phillip Garrido`s control and powerless to do anything. Powerless to release Jaycee Dugard.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Michael Cardoza, she can`t get away with this.
MICHAEL CARDOZA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, she`s not going to get away with it. I was talking to some of my friends in law enforcement, and they told me that Nancy Garrido talked to the police.
Nancy Garrido told them that the day before Jaycee was kidnapped, she and Phillip were out looking, child shopping for a victim to kidnap. When Garrido -- when Phillip Garrido saw Jaycee, he said, "That`s the one I want. She`s cute. I want her, but she`s with the other kids. Let me come back later. Let`s come back later and get her."
The next day, they went, both of them, husband and wife, and kidnapped Jaycee, kidnapped her the next day. So was Nancy Garrido knee deep into this? Absolutely.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You bet she is.
CARDOZA: And then keep in mind, in 19 -- in 1993, remember, Phillip Garrido went back into custody. There was a parole violation, and Nancy Garrido watched Jaycee for four or five months. Perfect opportunity to turn her in.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. She could`ve called...
(CROSSTALK)
CARDOZA: Hold on, everybody, wait a second. We`re going to have more after the break and we`re going to meet a woman who`s been in the Garrido house and talk to her about Phil Garrido. She knows him.
We`re taking your calls: 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297.
Also Ashley Dupre, the high-priced call girl who hooked up with Eliot Spitzer, who (UNINTELLIGIBLE), she`s now lashing out. You won`t believe who she`s attacking.
Then Jaycee`s alleged abductor, Phillip Garrido, he`s facing life behind bars due to a sick sexual crime spree that began decades earlier.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DUGARD: The smile on my sister`s face is as wide as the sea. Her oldest daughter is finally home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jaycee Dugard`s aunt, talking about the family`s joyous reunion nearly two decades after Jaycee was abducted.
More stunning new details today about what cops say alleged kidnapper- rapist Phillip Garrido did during those 18 years of torture. That`s my fantastic expert panel. And we`re joined by Janice Gomes.
Janice, thank you so much for joining us. Look at -- look at me, ma`am. There you are. So glad you could join us.
You knew Phillip Garrido. You are a client of his printing business. Janice, this is a wild, horrifying irony. I couldn`t believe it when I was reading it. You are a child safety advocate. You went to him to print up leaflets for parents on how to prevent child kidnapping, and he once told you, "Children shouldn`t be walking to the bus stop by themselves. Children are no match for adults."
When you found out that he is the man who allegedly kidnapped Jaycee near a bus, what was your reaction?
JANICE GOMES, NEIGHBOR: The first reaction I had was kind of a sick to my stomach. I had a son-in-law call me and ask if I`d watched the morning news. And I told him I had it on but I kind of slept through it. And he said, "Phillip`s on the news."
And actually the first thing I said was, "Don`t tell me they found him to be a child pedophile."
And he said, "Not only that. They found him to be a kidnapper, too."
And after that, I don`t remember what was said because I was kind of being sarcastic, but maybe that was in the back of my mind, but that`s what came out. And after that, I can`t even remember our conversation very much. I was really shocked.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, everybody is wondering how is it that the parole officers went into his house and didn`t notice that crazy scene in the back yard with the tents and the sheds. You actually visited his house. You went in there. Did you ever get creeped out? Did you ever get a feeling, either from him or the house or the back yard that something was just fishy in Denmark, as they say?
GOMES: I think to know Phillip was to be creeped out. I think that`s a good way to put it. He was kind of just a jumpy individual that often talked in words that I didn`t understand. He was still talking English, but I didn`t understand what he was saying.
Being over at the house, to answer your question, when I was in his house, the only time I was in his house, I had asked him about his yard. The reason I did is because the neighborhood is such that I was wondering how far back his neighborhood actually went. And there`s a street called Vieira, and he lives on Walnut, and his backyard almost went to Vieira, he said. He said there was one house down there on...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Did he offer you an explanation for the mess -- did he offer you an explanation for the mess in the back yard? Or was it hidden from view?
GOMES: It was hidden from view. I heard your other speaker say, "Why didn`t somebody go back into the back yard and investigate?" That whole place was locked up all the way around. There was fences all the way around the house. But when you would go to pick up your business cards, he would often come out from the back yard, and he would shut the gate.
And all you could see at that time was the printing area. He had -- you can kind of see a blue garage top. And about ten years ago, that`s actually where his printing business was.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, I understand you actually talked to Jaycee herself on the phone. What did she sound like? Did you get any sense at all that there was anything wrong?
GOMES: Oh, not at all. She was very polite. She was very professional. I`d talked to her a couple of times because of misspellings in my business cards and once on a brochure. And she just said, "I`m really sorry about that. We`ll take care of it," and that`s what they did.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So when you heard that she was being held hostage for 18 years, you must have just -- I would have fallen off my chair, thinking, "I talked to this girl. She never said anything." But of course, we now know that she was probably in fear for her own daughters.
GOMES: Oh, I`m sure there was some kind of a threat or she felt some kind of danger if she, you know, tried anything. She had two daughters, it sounds like she just loves dearly, and I don`t think she was going to do anything to jeopardize that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I want you to stand by, Janice. It`s absolutely fascinating.
Michael Cardoza, so many people, you`ve covered so many of these big cases. They say why is it that somebody doesn`t run for help or call for help? They have no way of understanding the terror that this person is living in day in and day out when they`ve got other hostages, two of their own daughters.
CARDOZA: Well, you know, there`s something called the Stockholm Syndrome that we`ve all heard about. And when people are taken, when they`re kidnapped, when they`re raped, they become completely dependent on their captors. I mean, right from eating to going to the bathroom and such. So they, on a certain level, have a very emotional tie to that person. You can imagine after 18 years, Jaycee must have had some emotional tie to Phillip Garrido.
Couple that with the fact he`s probably threatened her, probably threatened her and said, "You leave, I kill your daughters, or I do something awful to your daughters." So that alone would keep her there, I would think, and keep her quiet about what`s going on because of that motherly instinct or parental instinct to protect your young.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tara Fields, you`re the psychotherapist. Of all of the things that I`ve read about what Janice, our guest, has said, she says that one of her relatives, somebody she knew, said that he often sang "Like a Virgin." That`s the Madonna song. That is very, very, very sick, because his own relatives say he was obsessed with de-virginizing young girls.
FIELDS: Yes. What I think is so interesting is that he was almost seductive in all the information that he was giving out all the time: "Come close. I have nothing to hide." And he really didn`t feel any kind of anxiety.
I mean, aside from the fact that this man was for sure a sociopath, meaning that you don`t feel empathy, you don`t feel remorse, but there`s the arrogance of narcissism. So he`s singing the song, saying, "I have nothing to hide. And I am so good at controlling people that I can pull you in, and you`re not going to do anything."
He practically dangled his situation in front of people, in front of the police. The neighbors.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And Curtis, no wonder -- no wonder -- Curtis, no wonder he was brazen. In 1972, he allegedly took two young teenagers into his back yard shed, did drugs with them, pumped drugs into them, allegedly raped one of them. Nothing happened. He`s in the same town decades, decades, decades later with a hostage of almost two decades. Nothing`s happening to him.
FIELDS: And it just -- and it just...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, but let me go to Curtis. Yes, it`s arrogance, Curtis.
SLIWA: Well, you know, he feels he`s an untouchable. You better believe he was probably the most surprised guy in town. He figured, "I`m cold busted with my partner, my deviant partner. And they`re letting me walk," because the victim wouldn`t testify. Then they lose the paperwork.
Then, remember, "I get 50 years for grabbing the woman in South Lake Tahoe. I`m gone for half a century. They release me in ten. They let me move from Nevada to California." Unbelievable.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. More on this in a second.
And coming up, Michael Jackson`s funeral. Tonight we`re going to take you to Forest Lawn, behind the scenes of a very private burial service.
And more on this Jaycee Dugard case. It`s vile.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What happened to your marriage?
CHRISTINE MURPHY, PHILLIP GARRIDO`S EX-WIFE: It fell apart because of his neediness for sex. I just wanted my life the way it used to be, before Phillip Garrido.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Phillip Garrido`s first wife got sick to her stomach when she heard what he`s accused of doing. Christine Murphy -- you jut saw her there -- told "Inside Edition" he was a violent sex addict who once tried to gouge her eyes out with a safety pin.
Phone lines lighting up. Lisa, Ohio, your question or thought, ma`am?
CALLER: Yes, I have a comment and a question. Excuse me. My comment is this. I hope that this -- this case in particular prompts other rape victims to come forward, whether it be that by the hand of this man or any other.
And also my question is, can this -- this be prime example, be enough to change government laws, things that are held by the state laws, police officers, and probation officers even?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I agree with you that rape victims should come forward.
And let`s not forget, Michael Cardoza, that there was a very brave woman who came forward on "LARRY KING LIVE" and talked about how this guy you`re looking at right here raped her for eight hours in a storage warehouse. And she spoke about it, and so she should be commended.
CARDOZA: That was Katherine Hall. She told about how he had abducted her, how he walked up to her car, said, "My car had broken down." She offers to give Phillip Garrido a ride. He gets in. He takes her to a shed that he had rented, and he begins a sexual ordeal for, what, five to eight hours?
She testifies against him, and that`s the case for which he got 50 years, but was let out after ten years. What a horrible mistake.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tara Fields. Shed.
CARDOZA: Pardon me?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tara Fields, the psychotherapist. What do you make of his obsession with sheds? There`s a constant theme in all his alleged crimes. Sheds, storage warehouses, containing women where they can`t get away.
FIELDS: Sure, that`s exactly what you do with animals, with things...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I don`t do that with animals. I care about animals. I don`t ever do that to an animal.
FIELDS: No, no, no, Jane, you`re talking to someone who`s very involved in animal rescue. But we`re talking about the same kind of people that do chain their animals up, stick them in a shed. But it`s also really convenient.
And this is also someone who objectifies someone, and who over time, his belief and his narcissism, "I`m actually doing God`s work, that this is OK. Maybe they enjoy it. Because I`m untouchable."
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`ve got to go to Janice.
CARDOZA: Well, remember, Jane...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wait a second. One second. Janice.
GOMES: Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: He said something about Bible study with your granddaughter. We`ve only got a couple of seconds.
GOMES: OK, he had asked my granddaughter if she wanted to go to Bible study on Wednesday. She is also a blue-eyed blond, and she had both her parents there at the time. And she was very freaked out and didn`t -- this was right after he broke out in song and started singing to her. And he stopped in the middle of the song and said, "Would you like to come to Bible study at my house on Wednesday?"
And she said no and got out of there.
And what struck me is she had both her parents there, and Jaycee didn`t. I can`t imagine the fear that she felt, because she had nobody there to protect her.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thank God he got caught and your granddaughter is OK. And thank you, outstanding panel.
Ashley Dupre made a name for herself when she took Eliot Spitzer`s money in exchange for sex. Now she`s angry. We`ll tell you why.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is the high-priced hooker who hooked up with Eliot Spitzer paying the ultimate price while the former governor contemplates another run for public office?
Ashley Dupre complains of women looking down on her. She says she`s no worse than many other women targeting men for money.
Give me a break. She sold her body for sex to the highest bidder. Is this young girl blind with denial? Is her life that delusional? Or can she get her life back on track?
We`ll debate it.
Plus, Michael Jackson finally being laid to rest tonight with family and his closest friends by his side; the King of Pop will enter his final resting place, an ornate mausoleum that boasts da Vinci`s Last Supper adorned in stained glass.
We have cameras from every angle, reporters, inside sources, scattered throughout Forest Lawn Cemetery. Details of this highly private and secured service you`ll only hear tonight on ISSUES.
The high-class prostitute hired by disgraced former New York Governor Eliot Spitzer back in the spotlight tonight. Ashley Dupre posted an online rant responding to an article about Eliot Spitzer possibly going back into politics -- we hope not.
The young woman at the center of the scandal is furious. She`s mad that Eliot Spitzer could get to move on while she is being judged. And women out there, she is speaking to you. Saying, hey, you`re no better than me.
Dupre whose hooker name was Kristin, says, quote, "most women want to be pampered and have nice shoes and clothes. They target guys with money to get these things," end quote. It`s an excuse she`s been clinging to since she was first outed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ASHLEY DUPRE, ESCORT: I felt like it was in a way it was...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You felt nothing?
DUPRE: Nothing.
I really didn`t see the difference between going out on a date with someone in, you know, in New York and him taking me to dinner and expecting something in return. I really thought it was more of a trade-off.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Sorry, my dear, your rationalization doesn`t cut it with me. Dating involves going out with somebody you`re attracted to. Most women don`t go out with a man to get a free dinner, they go out to dinner with a man they find attractive.
Prostitutes sell their bodies for a few thousand bucks sometimes to men that they find unattractive. And if Ashley doesn`t want to be judged, why is she crying out for attention? Could it have something to do with that new song she posted along with her tirade? You`re going to get to listen to it in a minute. It`s a gem.
Straight out to my expert panel: defense attorney Michael Cardoza; and marriage and family therapist Dr. Tara Fields; Kristin Davis, author of the "Manhattan Madam: Sex, drugs, scandal and greed inside America`s most successful prostitution ring.
Kristin, we`re delighted to have you on, and we`re going to debate Ashley`s rant. You know how I feel about it. And I have to ask you, why is it that women who sell their body always seem to have the same argument? They`re no different than other women. But aren`t they?
KRISTIN DAVIS, AUTHOR, "MANHATTAN MADAM": You know, I tend to think that prostitution should be legal, taxed, and regulated. So I think it`s the woman`s right to choose if she wants to sell her body then it`s her choice. I don`t know that she`s any different.
There`s many regular women that actually choose that as their profession.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I have to say -- I personally agree that prostitution should probably be legalized along with certain lesser drugs. We have a criminal justice system that is working overtime on prosecuting all these so-called victimless crimes and yet we have the sickos like Phillip Garrido running around terrorizing, raping women, allegedly, and he`s not caught because we`re spending so much time on these prostitution rings where people consenting adults doing what they want.
I actually agree with you. What I don`t agree with, Tara Fields, is this notion prostitutes are just like any other women. You know, all the women I know that buy their own shoes, they buy their own handbags, they buy their own lunch. You know why? They`re working, they`ve got jobs, real jobs.
TARA FIELDS, MARRIAGE & FAMILY THERAPIST: Thank you. And they`ve been waiting on tables like I did to go to graduate school to have a profession. And maybe grow up some day and have a wonderful husband who occasionally buys you something. There`s nothing wrong with that. But they`re also their husband.
This is such a classic example of why Freud came up with ego defenses. It`s how we live with ourselves, we rationalize. That`s one ego defense.
But also, you know, I`m the therapist here. This is the classic Oedipal struggle. "Gee, I couldn`t get daddy`s attention, all his attention, I couldn`t kill off mom. So I`m just going to find a way to heal that wound later in life."
And this is a woman who would do better to go into therapy. She would let all of the other women off the hook and get into a healthy relationship and find out that women and maybe she has more value than her body. And you can get more out of life in men than a steak dinner or shoes or a new purse.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, so what`s bringing this tirade on? We know Ashley Dupre likes the limelight.
Here she is before she knew Spitzer, showing it off for girls gone wild. Now she wants to be a singer and she`s got a song to promote. It`s conveniently linked at the bottom of her blog post. Listen to this if you dare.
All right. In a cruel twist of fate, we couldn`t find that clip, and you are spared from having to listen to it. But I`ve got to tell you, she`s not going to be nominated for a Grammy any time soon. I can tell you that.
So Michael Cardoza, we`ve been talking about prostitution.
MICHAEL CARDOZA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And I think the bottom line we have to look at is, should it be legalized? I happen to agree with...
CARDOZA: Jane, I absolutely agree with you. It should be legalized just like marijuana. We waste a lot of our legal time on that in courts. We can make a lot of money as a government taxing marijuana, taxing prostitution.
And it`s not -- you know, a lot of people say well, it`s really not a victimless crime because people go around and commit crimes. Well, regulate it and then those things would not happen.
But now I get back to Eliot Spitzer. Does he really think he`s going to be elected? Here`s a guy that went around pontificating, took down half of Wall Street, and then he goes out and does things like this.
I don`t care about the prostitution. Eliot, it`s fine with me if that`s what you wanted to do. If your marriage was that bad that you had to go get a prostitute, that`s between you and your wife not between me and you or the rest of the country...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to jump in here.
CARDOZA: But you lied to us. He lied to us all
FIELDS: It`s not necessarily -- ok, but I just want to jump in and say a man doesn`t have an affair necessarily with another woman because he`s unhappy in his marriage or as so many people who will rush to pathologize women to say that she wasn`t as sexual. It has nothing to do with sex and romance...
(CROSS TALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Kristin Davis -- Kristin Davis, are men who use prostitutes sex addicts?
DAVIS: Well, first and foremost Eliot Spitzer did not just use the prostitute one time. I think we`re missing the bigger picture. He used prostitutes...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s why I`m asking.
DAVIS: ... dozens of times with numerous agencies. He was the chief law enforcement officer of New York.
CARDOZA: There you go.
DAVIS: And he went around as attorney general arresting people and putting them in jail while he was going home to his high-rise calling up and ordering a hooker, doing the same crime that he was arresting people for. There`s a difference.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: There`s a double standard. There`s a double standard.
FIELDS: Double standard, sexist.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, men don`t pay, the jobs don`t suffer, and the women do. Michael Cardoza.
CARDOZA: What do you mean the women? What women? The wives? Who?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Kristin Davis, didn`t you go to jail, Kristin?
DAVIS: I spent 4 months in Riker`s on a $2 million bail which, I don`t know from your experience, what do you consider that bail amount, $2 million. They asked for $10 million, which is the same as Bernie Madoff. I had two counts on my indictment.
CARDOZA: That`s ridiculous. That`s ridiculous.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: How much time did Eliot Spitzer do in jail?
CARDOZA: Zippo.
DAVIS: None.
(CROSS TALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: By the way, we`ve got the song. Let`s listen to the song. Let`s listen to the song. It`s funny.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
ASHLEY DUPRE: If I was faithful, if I was true. If I love no one else but you, would you forgive me and stay around if I fell down would you see me through.
If we can measure all that we are
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh. I`ve suddenly got a pain in my ear. I don`t know where it`s from.
Kristin, what do we say about that song? What do we say about that song, seriously? Can we say anything?
DAVIS: She still hasn`t found her niche.
CARDOZA: I`ll tell you what we say. We say what she`s doing now is getting her a lot of publicity and maybe somebody will buy the song. That`s what this is all about.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tara, this is about a woman who is taking shortcuts.
CARDOZA: That`s right. I agree with that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I feel very compassionate with a lot of prostitutes who are -- come from extreme poverty, some of them are sold by their families.
CARDOZA: Right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Total compassion -- this lady is a middle class girl. She doesn`t need to be doing this.
CARDOZA: She makes a lot of money though. She made a lot of money doing it.
FIELDS: Yes, but at what cost? And at some point, you know...
CARDOZA: I`m surprised she was willing to pay... --
FIELDS: Well, I know, but what Jane said is so important. It`s a shortcut. Even now she hasn`t had the wake-up call that maybe...
CARDOZA: Come on, a lot of people take shortcuts.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s a great subject. We`re going to revisit it.
I want to thank my amazing panel and Kristin, thanks for being a good sport and debating.
A 68-year-old nun arrested and charged for what? We will tell you after the break.
Plus, more than two months ago, the devastating news of Michael Jackson`s death heard around the world. Tonight he will finally be laid to rest; a look inside the burial of the King of Pop. It`s coming up momentarily.
Give us a call: 1-877-JVM SAYS; 1-877-586-7297.
You know I`ve had my own struggles with addiction. In my new book, "I Want," I reveal details of my personal battle with alcoholism and how I finally got sober more than 14 years ago.
You can order my recovery memoir; it`s out now on bookstores or you can just click on cnn.com/jane. Look for the order section.
You know they say the only thing that has to change is everything. That`s exactly what happened to me when I sobered up.
There`s some real shockers in there, you will not believe all of the things that changed in my life when I got sober.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Michael Jackson will finally be laid to rest later tonight; all the details on that amazing ceremony next.
But first, "Top of the Block" tonight: a very naughty nun is going to have to do a lot of confessing this week. Authorities say that at about 3:00 p.m. on Tuesday, Sister Lauren Hanley began drinking at work in Long Island.
The spiritual director supposedly downed half a bottle of gin. And hours later decided to take a drunken joyride, allegedly, after leaving the church. Police say Hanley sideswiped cars, zigzagged on residential streets and nearly hit a group of kids before actually hitting a tree. The cash site is about .2 miles away from the church.
A bottle of what appeared to be alcohol found in the car. Prosecutors say the 68-year-old`s breathalyzer registered a .18; that`s more than two times the legal limit. Thankfully nobody was hurt.
The nun, charged with misdemeanor drunk driving, arraigned yesterday, released today in her own recognizance. She could face up to a year in prison if convicted. This nun proving again that alcohol abuse knows no boundaries, no career boundaries, no racial boundaries, no financial boundaries.
When are we going to get real about alcohol abuse? That is tonight, "Top of the Block."
Tonight, a milestone for Michael Jackson: his family and fans in the 70 days -- can you believe it`s been 70 days since his sudden death? Rumors about when and where he would be buried has run rampant. But just hours from now, Jackson`s body will be finally laid to rest.
His family set to hold a secret ceremony at 7:00 Pacific time at Forest Lawn Cemetery in southern California. Jackson was expected to spend eternity here in the massive great mausoleum alongside Hollywood stars like Clark Gable and Sammy Davis Jr.
But tonight we are hearing that the Jackson family might have had a change of heart. What? The "New York Post" is quoting a family source who said Michael`s body will be entombed in the Freedom Mausoleum close to his idol Walt Disney.
Well this last minute change is no surprise given the public family battle over his burial site.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JERMAINE JACKSON, BROTHER OF MICHAEL JACKSON: I want him at Neverland, and there`s a question. But still...
LARRY KING, CNN HOST: Yes, Katherine -- she`s your mother. So can`t you say, hey, mom...
JACKSON: I`m not the only one, Larry. There`s like so many.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: The question for fans who came around the world to support him during his 2005 trial, will they ever be able to get close to their idol? Or will they have to adore Jackson from a distance?
Meantime, no rest for Dr. Conrad Murray: law enforcement sources tell TMZ Jackson`s personal physician is only the -- the only one in the cross hairs of the LAPD. Dr. Murray`s attorney tells ISSUES they will not comment on rumor or speculation.
So much to talk about and we`re taking your calls. Straight out to my fantastic panel: Michael Cardoza, criminal defense attorney; Firpo Carr, Jackson family friend and former Jackson spokesman; Bryan Monroe, former editor of Jet and Ebony magazines -- Bryan was the last journalist to interview Michael Jackson in the U.S. before his death; and Ted Rowlands, CNN correspondent, he is standing by right now on location at Forest Lawn Memorial Park.
Ted, what is the very latest?
TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the very latest is that in a few hours as you mentioned family and friends are coming to this very private ceremony at Forest Lawn. At the mortuary behind me basically where it`s going to take place is just over the hill behind me.
Kind of tough to see, the security here is extreme. A number of streets have been cornered off. There are no fans here at all and no way to get here because the local police department have cordoned it off, high security.
We`re not quite sure what`s going to happen inside, we do know a lot of folks who are going in. Afterwards, I`m sure we`ll be told what`s going on. But Jane, basically what we can tell you is it seems to be the private ceremony that one would think has not taken place yet in terms of close friends, people that Michael`s family thinks that Michael Jackson would`ve wanted to be there have been invited.
The people like, McCauley Culkin apparently was invited -- I`m not sure if he`s going to be there. People like Miko Brando and his wife Karen who were married in Neverland. And then the family members as well.
So it is billed as a very, very intimate ceremony that`s going to take place here and a very private one.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Firpo Carr, we`ve been hearing about this battle over which part of Forest Lawn Michael Jackson is going to be interred in. Do you know anything about this battle? We know Jermaine actually wanted Neverland.
FIRPO CARR, JACKSON FAMILY FRIEND: Yes, Jermaine wanted Neverland. But the problem with that is that Michael didn`t want to be there. And Katherine is honoring that wish.
And although Jermaine says that we saw on Larry King that, well, you know I can talk to mom. Make no mistake about it, when Katherine makes up her mind, she will tell Jermaine and everyone else exactly where they stand on the issue or where she stands on the issue.
So as far as this battle over where he`s going to be, this part or that part, for the most part it`s immaterial to some family members. But there are some among the family who really want Michael to be buried where they think he would want to be buried, namely as you stated, next to Walt Disney because he loved that whole idea about this fantasy land.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You want to hear something bizarre, Bryan Monroe? We`re hearing now from TMZ that Michael Jackson`s family will be rolling into his funeral in style because they got themselves a fleet of Rolls Royce Phantoms for the event.
Is that really appropriate at this point? Given all the talk about Michael Jackson`s money problems, the fact that this is a monstrously expensive funeral already, that the estate is going to pay. The estate is supposed to be for the benefit primarily of the kids. Why a fleet of Rolls Royces?
BRYAN MONROE, FORMER EDITOR, JET MAGAZINE: Well, you know those stretch Rolls Royce Phantoms, they`ve actually used those cars before for the funeral. And in fact, the family has a relationship with the company providing the services. So I even hear her getting a discount on those Rolls Royces.
But you know, seriously, the cost of the services are going to be astronomical. We know that they went to court earlier to get approval to use funds from the trust to -- from the estate, to pay for the costs.
But you know in an odd way, we talked earlier about Michael`s desire to be buried amongst his heroes; you know Sammy Davis Jr.`s buried there and Walt Disney. Michael in our last conversation, Michael actually told me about his admiration for Walt Disney. He talked about the competition he and a writer name Rod Timperton (ph) had in writing music for "Thriller."
He said was inspired by Walt Disney`s approach. Walt Disney used to bring amongst all the artists that he worked with, he used to bring an animal, a deer, into the middle of the stage with the artist.
(CROSS TALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We got it. He loved Walt Disney.
Stay right there, we`re going to have more on the funeral in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL JACKSON, KING OF POP: I`ll be performing the songs my fans want to hear. This is it. I mean, this is really it. This is the final - - this is the final curtain call. Ok? And I`ll see you in July.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That was Michael Jackson announcing his final series of concerts, but truly tonight is the final curtain call as he is ultimately laid to rest.
Let`s talk a little bit about the criminal investigation. Michael Cardoza, you won`t believe Dr. Murray getting an unwelcome assist from an infamous doctor, Dr. Jack Kevorkian, a.k.a. Dr. Death, known as a champion of assisted suicide. You may remember he served time for second-degree manslaughter after administering a very sick man a lethal injection.
Dr. Death says Michael Jackson the patient, quote, "got what he wanted," end quote, because he asked for those drugs.
Michael Cardoza, as a criminal defense attorney, do you think Dr. Death has a point? And do you think he`s helping Dr. Conrad Murray? Or hurting him?
CARDOZA: Come on, it`s not even close. What Michael Jackson asked for was to get some sleep. What does Michael Jackson know about Propofol and what it could do?
I mean Michael was so overcome by all the drugs he was taking he probably couldn`t make a rational decision at the time he asked for more. I don`t get that analogy at all.
What the doctor did, however, could be criminal because he is the doctor. He knows how dangerous that drug is. He knows that drug could cause death.
Everybody keeps talking about manslaughter and I know the L.A. D.A.`s office -- or the LAPD and the LADA are investigating it for manslaughter but I will tell you what, it could get into that second degree range.
The other thing that I have a big problem with as a defense attorney is why in the heck did the defense attorneys to the doctor let him fill in the all of the blanks for LAPD? It`s their job to investigate, not you as the suspect to help them.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right.
CARDOZA: I think that the doctor ought to kick back, let them do their own job because he could still get prosecuted and get convicted.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to go to the ceremony tonight because he`s going to be laid to rest in Forest Lawn Cemetery. And we`ve talked a little bit about where indeed, if it is indeed inside the Great Mausoleum, he`s going to be in the company of entertainment legends, including Oscar winner and star of Casablanca, Humphrey Bogart, Rhett Butler, a.k.a. Clark Gable, Sammy Davis Jr.
Firpo Carr, but is all of this beautiful, beautiful symbolism going to be overshadowed by the criminal investigation that continues to haunt the Jackson name?
CARR: Well, I think what will happen is you will have a two-part situation here.
One, Michael Jackson will be finally laid to rest so you`ll have some closure there. But on the other side, you have this strange dichotomy of this continuing investigation.
So, yes, something is going to happen. Something is going to come of that. You will here the world media here again especially when charges -- and that`s a very probable situation when charges are filed.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ten seconds Bryan Monroe. This case is not anymore near over, is it?
MONROE: Not at all. It is good that finally Michael`s soul will be laid to rest and hopefully he can rest in peace.
The investigation will continue. The state of California said they`re going to have the attorney general`s launching an investigation. The medical board, I`m sure, will be looking into this. This is not over.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Absolutely not. It is just unfortunately in some ways the beginning.
You`re watching ISSUES on HLN.
END
