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NANCY GRACE

Casey Anthony Takes the 5th in Civil Case

Aired February 3, 2009 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a beautiful 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminates when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthonys` confirmed to be Caylee, manner of death homicide, the little girl`s remains completely skeletonized. This after a utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag containing a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair. The killer duct tapes the child`s mouth, then finishes off by placing a child`s heart-shaped sticker over the duct tape, little Caylee`s tiny skeleton double-bagged like she`s trash.

Bombshell. Tot mom Casey Anthony takes the 5th, refusing to answer questions under oath in the suit by Zenaida Gonzalez, who tot mom accuses of kidnapping Caylee. With tot mom`s sticking to her story the nanny did it, what did she have to hide?

And tonight, brother Lee Anthony`s lawyer announces he, too, may refuse to answer questions under oath. But why? All three depos, for brother Lee and grandparents George and Cindy Anthony, set to take place in just days and to be videotaped and be released. But the Anthony lawyers don`t want the public to ever view the questioning under oath. Why not?

And has a date been set for a public memorial for little Caylee? Reports say grandmother Cindy personally hand picks location, flowers, music, set down one week from today at the 1st Baptist Church of Orlando, seating capacity 5,000. But when will little Caylee actually be put to rest? The funeral still not set as Caylee`s remains sit alone in a box at a local funeral home. And tonight, we learn the Anthonys planning to grieve together with tot mom behind bars via video.

And bombshell. As we go to air, grandfather George Anthony has just walked out of a hospital psych ward after sending multiple text messages he wanted to end his life to go be with Caylee. Is the investigation of tot mom`s lead defense lawyer set to be reopened? The defense still planning to get out of town, moving the trial out of Orlando. But who will foot the massive bill for tot mom`s change of venue?

And tonight, pop icon Olivia Newton-John`s long-time love vanishes off the California coast nearly four years ago. Tonight, he`s reportedly seen alive -- repeat, seen alive -- throughout Mexico and across South America. Did the superstar`s lover fake his own death?

Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tot mom Casey Anthony takes the 5th and brother Lee Anthony`s lawyer announces he, too, may refuse to answer questions under oath. Has a date finally been set down for a public memorial for Caylee? But when will little Caylee be put to rest?

Right now, I want to go out to Kathi Belich with WFTV. Kathi is standing by there in Orlando. Kathi, what can you tell me about George Anthony just walking out of the hospital?

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: Apparently, that has just happened. And what we have been told in the past by the family attorney is that he would be released to another hospital somewhere in this area, in the Orlando area, and he won`t say where. They didn`t really want us to know where he would be going in Orlando. But at this point, it`s just happening and we don`t have all the details yet.

GRACE: OK. Let me get something straight. He`s released from one hospital, but he`s being transported to another hospital?

BELICH: That`s what the family attorney had told us. He said this is going to be a very long recovery for George and he said that they would like to keep the location of the hospital here in the area closer to home a secret because they don`t want media, obviously, camped out at that hospital. But that`s what I was told just last week.

GRACE: But Kathi Belich, joining us tonight from WFTV, if he is in a psych ward and there is security, has the media actually gained access to George Anthony?

BELICH: No, they have not. There is security outside his hospital room to prevent any of that. I know that he wanted to keep his release secret. He didn`t want all of us to be camped out at the hospital in Daytona Beach, Halifax Medical Center, waiting to get some sort of a shot of him leaving the hospital. So apparently, that`s just happened just in the last few minutes, and I think he would like to keep the new location here in Orlando from the media, if he can.

GRACE: Out to our producer standing by there at the jailhouse. Natisha Lance is with us in Orlando. Natisha, what more do you know?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, just what Kathi said, Nancy. This is just happening. We heard from Halifax Medical Center that George Anthony has been released. We are trying to find out more details, such as what time his release happened. And as Kathi said, we were hearing previously that he would be turned over to another hospital that`s closer to his home in Orange County because they were working out some type of long-term treatment plan for him. But at this point, we are hearing George Anthony has been released from Halifax Medical Center and waiting to hear more details about that.

GRACE: You know what? I don`t blame him for trying to keep it a secret. There`s a horde of media there outside the hospital.

We are taking your calls live. To Susie in Ohio. Hi, Susie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a question concerning Lee and Cindy saying that -- I heard Lee had said that back in the summer he had pictures of Caylee at the nanny`s that he was going to produce. And also, Cindy calling the -- the first call she made, said the nanny took the baby. And now they`re all saying there is no nanny. So I don`t understand that. And I`ve been trying to call you since July.

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: You know, Susie, I want to thank you for continuing to call. Our lines get extremely jammed. I want to thank you for calling.

I want to go straight back to Natisha Lance, our producer, standing by at the courthouse. Do you recall Lee Anthony stating he had photos of the baby at the nanny`s, or is he simply repeating something the tot mom had told him?

LANCE: I don`t recall Lee Anthony saying that. Actually, Nancy, one of the things that investigators were looking at were Casey Anthony`s photos. She claimed to have lots of photos of Caylee. But the one thing that was interesting about it is that there were no pictures of Caylee with Zenaida or any pictures of Zenaida whatsoever. But I don`t recall Lee Anthony talking about having a photo of Caylee at the baby-sitter`s, no.

GRACE: Well, let`s get back to the breaking news right now. Number one, the tot mom takes the 5th, refusing to answer questions under oath, a lawsuit filed by the real Zenaida Gonzalez. Why is she sticking to her story that a Zenaida Gonzalez took little Caylee? Why can`t she answer the questions? George Anthony has just walked off a psych ward at the hospital, but now we learn he`s headed to another psych ward at another hospital.

Back out to Kathi Belich with WFTV. Kathi, is he moving to a hospital closer to home?

BELICH: That was the plan. That was the plan that their attorney had talked about. He said it`s going to be a long-term recovery. And he actually told me that his biggest fear is that somewhere in this area, someone who`s working at whatever hospital George goes to in this area is going to call one of the reporters locally, and he`s worried about then the media showing up at that hospital. He was hoping that if that does happen, in fact, that whoever gets that call would be responsible about it. But that is a big concern up there.

GRACE: To Nikki Pierce with WDBO, also standing by there at the jailhouse. Nikki, won`t the press, the media, observe Cindy or Lee Anthony going to visit George and thereby find out what hospital he`s going to?

NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: It`s very possible. I know that he is trying to keep the location a secret. And as you said, I don`t blame him, either. But it`s entirely possible that members of the media can follow Cindy or leave from their home to the facility, wherever it would be, or find out through other means.

GRACE: Back out to the lines. Joann in Georgia. Hi, Joann.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, hi.

GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Hi. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`d like to know -- I thought that usually, people pled the 5th whenever they were guilty of something and wanted to cover it up.

GRACE: And your question is?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does this mean that she`s saying that she is guilty? I mean...

GRACE: Well, no, she`s not formally stating she`s guilty, but you`re right on regarding taking the 5th. You take the 5th because under our Constitution, the 5th Amendment says you do not -- you have a right not to self-incriminate yourself. You can`t be forced to the stand in a criminal proceeding.

Let`s the unleash lawyers on this, Susan Moss out of New York, Raymond Giudice out of Atlanta, Mickey Sherman out of New York. What about it, Ray?

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, absolutely, if I`m her lawyer, I`m not letting her answer these questions in a maybe frivolous civil lawsuit when she may be...

GRACE: Frivolous?

GIUDICE: ... looking at life in prison or the gas chamber. It`s frivolous in that, Nancy, it`s never going to get a judgment that`s collectible. It`s a waste of time.

GRACE: Right, Ray. And I`m sure that you and Mickey Sherman have never filed a lawsuit where the target wasn`t a multi-millionaire. Listen, we never know if the tot mom`s going to get a movie or a book deal. That means ka-ching, money, Sherman.

MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, but if her whole idea is that she`s been slandered -- you know, everyone quickly forgot her name. Also, nobody ever believed the story that she was responsible anyway. It`s a civil lawsuit. They`re out for money. They`re out for a Lifetime movie. It doesn`t make a lot of sense. Why should she testify?

GRACE: When we come back, the counsel for Zenaida Gonzalez is with us. We`re taking your calls. We`ll be back in 30 seconds.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Back to Natisha in Orlando. I want to go back to George Anthony just released. Any idea which hospital is close to home?

LANCE: You know, Nancy, I don`t know exactly which hospital would be closest to home here in the Orlando area, but I will work on finding that out for tomorrow for sure.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: While in court, there was talk about a change of venue for the trial. Baez spoke with reporters about when he might file that motion.

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: I -- you know, I anticipate it being soon because we want to -- you know, we feel our client`s innocent and we want to have her day in court. She wants her day in court. And I know that`s a hard thing for everyone to believe here, but she is innocent.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As for when the trial could be scheduled, prosecutor Lena Drain (ph) suggested it won`t be anytime soon.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t anticipate this being ready for trial until later this year.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. All right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "The Orlando Sentinel" reports Caylee`s mother is taking the 5th in a defamation suit filed against her. Zenaida Gonzalez said Casey Anthony ruined her name by claiming a nanny with that same name had kidnapped her daughter, Caylee. Anthony has 30 days to answer questions in the defamation suit. Anthony`s attorneys are concerned her answers could be used against her in her criminal trial.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: As we go to air, in the last moments, grandfather George Anthony is released from Halifax hospital. But the word is he is traveling to yet another psych unit in a hospital closer to home. Also tonight, the tot mom takes the 5th, refusing to answer questions under oath. But will her brother, Lee, join her? Her attorney suggests he, too, will avoid questioning.

We are taking your calls live.

Out to Keith Mitnik, counsel for the real Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez, the woman that the tot mom accuses of kidnapping little Caylee. Keith, you just heard from another civil attorney, Ray Giudice, your claim against the tot mom is frivolous. I disagree.

KEITH MITNIK, ATTORNEY FOR ZENAIDA GONZALEZ: Yes, I heard it. I heard it. And it`s a shame. That saddens me to hear a fellow member of the bar talk like that. Does he realize that this lady lost her home? Does he realize that she had to move out? Does he realize she lost her job? Does he realize all of the hateful messages that she received from people that did believe it? Does he think that a suit, a righteous suit over trying to restore someone`s reputation, a righteous fight over principle, is suddenly frivolous because he isn`t going to put a lot of money in his pocket out of it? Shame on him.

GRACE: Well, Ray, here`s your chance.

GIUDICE: Well, Nancy, my perspective is this. When I`m representing a client in a potential death penalty case, I could give a tinker`s damn if she answers these civil lawsuits. They can hold her in contempt, if they want. They can get a default judgment. And that piece of paper won`t be worth two cents` worth of ink.

GRACE: But as I recall, Ray, your reasoning was not on the death penalty bandwagon. You said very simply it`s frivolous because tot mom doesn`t have any money, didn`t you?

GIUDICE: It`s an uncollectible judgment.

GRACE: So that`s...

GIUDICE: It`s a waste of time.

GRACE: ... what your reasoning was. Keith Mitnik, response?

(CROSSTALK)

GIUDICE: No, my reason is to protect her from testifying.

GRACE: Repeat?

MITNIK: I said, what we now have is someone trying to back down from running their mouth and making a comment that was inappropriate.

GRACE: But you know, Keith Mitnik...

MITNIK: It`s not frivolous. It`s not a waste of time. And if it was his family member that had been accused of kidnapping someone, he wouldn`t consider it frivolous. He`d be on a fight to the end of life to clear their name.

GRACE: Mr. Mitnik...

MITNIK: This lady has a criminal charge...

GRACE: ... wouldn`t you agree...

MITNIK: ... I understand that but...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Hold on. Hold on!

MITNIK: ... doesn`t take the back seat because of it.

GRACE: Mr. Mitnik, wouldn`t you agree with Giudice that if the death penalty or life without parole is a possibility that any civil suit would take a back seat?

MITNIK: I certainly understand this lady sitting in jail is more concerned about her criminal case than this case. But it doesn`t diminish the importance of the effort to try to clear this lady`s name.

GRACE: Got it. You know what the reality is, Mickey Sherman? They`re both right. They both have a leg to stand on. Explain.

SHERMAN: But you know, there`s another issue. President Clinton. He was impeached...

GRACE: I couldn`t hear you. Repeat?

SHERMAN: President Clinton was impeached not for having sex with Monica Lewinsky, but for lying -- for lying in a deposition in a civil lawsuit.

GRACE: Mickey, could you leave...

SHERMAN: Those things come back to bite you in the rear end.

GRACE: Just once, could you leave Clinton out of it? And to Susan Moss, can you explain why Giudice and Mitnik are both correct?

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Well, Mitnik is right because this woman wants to clear her name.

GRACE: Right.

MOSS: Certainly, she has suffered substantial damages. She`s lost her job. Who`s going to hire her? Everyone has this cloud of doubt over her head. But what`s she going to get? Maybe half the Doritos from the jail commissary...

GRACE: Continue.

MOSS: ... and some of the siphoned gas.

GRACE: And Giudice is also right because when you`ve got LWOP, life without parole, or the death penalty potentially on the table, everything takes a second seat. So everybody has a dog in the fight. Everybody`s got skin in the game, including Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez.

We are taking your calls live. To Susan in Tennessee. Hi, Susan.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello.

GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When can we reasonably expect this case to go to trial? And what might cause further delays just as a function of the judicial system?

GRACE: Well, Susan, since the state has taken the death penalty off the table for right now -- of course, that was announced before this little child`s body was found, double-bagged like she`s trash. If it were any other murder case, it would already be on a trial schedule, OK? But for some reason, there`s a delay.

Typically speaking -- to Natisha Lance. It was set down for March. Why the delay? This is not a death penalty case as of right now.

LANCE: Well, the dynamics of the case changed, Nancy, when the remains were found, and so that has caused the prosecution to basically reconstruct their entire case. But not only that, this brought a lot more forensics into the case. And the defense is saying that they are still waiting on mound and mounds of forensic evidence to come in. So we have a status hearing the end of February, and we`ll then find out when this case will actually go to trial.

GRACE: OK, let`s unleash the lawyers again -- Susan Moss, New York, Raymond Giudice, Atlanta, Mickey Sherman, New York, also author of "How Can You Defend Those People?" We now learn through his lawyer that brother Lee Anthony is also going to be deposed under oath, along with the grandparents. And Lee Anthony`s lawyer announces he may refuse to answer questions.

Hold on a moment. He`s not a target. He is a potential witness. So how does he claim the 5th, Susan Moss?

MOSS: Well, his lawyer seems to think he`s going to be charged any day now, and something in connection with the facts herein. How many Anthonys does it take to answer a simple deposition question? The world will never know.

GRACE: And to you, Mickey Sherman, there is no brother-sister privilege, such as husband-wife, priest-parishioner, attorney-client privilege, where you can actually avoid answering what you were told in court. They can`t -- brother Lee can`t claim any kind of privilege.

SHERMAN: No, there`s no privilege whatsoever, like a priest-penitent or an attorney-client or a doctor-patient. No. Brother -- siblings...

GRACE: You know, I just said that.

SHERMAN: Yes, siblings have no claim. But obviously, his lawyer has advised him or is possibly advising him that he is in some jeopardy and that if he testifies under oath in a civil deposition, he may tend to incriminate himself. So he`s taking the safe way out and saying, I`m not talking. That`s his privilege.

GRACE: So Kathi Belich, joining us from WFTV, what is brother Lee Anthony`s reasoning about why he also refuses to answer questions? And also, is this actually going to be on videotape, we will get to see the questioning under oath?

BELICH: I understand that Mitnik and his partners at Morgan and Morgan are planning to invite the media to these depositions, and also videotape them. Lee might just be trying to protect his sister. I`m not a lawyer. I don`t know if he has legal grounds to refuse to answer questions. But it may be as simple as trying to protect his sister, or maybe protect himself if he thinks he`s in jeopardy.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Caylee Anthony`s remains may finally be laid to rest. Orlando affiliate WFTV reports A public memorial will be held in Caylee`s honor at the 1st Baptist Church next Tuesday. Church officials say they haven`t confirmed the date with the Anthony family.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Burying your loved one is one of the biggest steps towards healing, and they have not been able to do that. They need to take that step.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: As we go to air, grandfather George Anthony is released from the Halifax psych ward. He has been there under tight security after sending text messages he wanted to end his life to go protect little Caylee in heaven. But is he headed to yet another psych ward closer to home, possibly the Orlando Regional Medical Center, which is closer to his home? We are taking your calls live -- this as the tot mom refuses to answer questions under oath, and her brother, Lee, seems to be following in her footsteps.

We are taking your calls live. To Diane in Colorado. Hi, Diane.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. This is such a sad, sad case.

GRACE: Yes, it is.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don`t you think now that George feels like he`s the rope caught in a tug-of-war between two very controlling women and that he feels guilty that he didn`t go to the trunk of the car when he asked Casey for his gas cans back, and now he fears like she will never, ever tell the truth?

GRACE: Well, to Dr. Lillian Glass, psychologist and author of "I Know What You`re Thinking." Dr. Glass, as a crime victim myself, many crime victims such as George Anthony blame themselves for no reason.

LILLIAN GLASS, PSYCHOLOGIST Well, he`s going through a lot of psychological trauma, and blame is just one of the things he`s going through. He`s going to have a long journey.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEITH MITNIK, CO-COUNSEL, ZENAIDA FERNANDEZ-GONZALEZ: Is this lady -- is this Zenaida Gonzalez, the lady you told the police about? We want to clear her name.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As part of Zenaida`s defamation lawsuit against Casey Anthony, Zenaida`s attorneys are demanding that Casey answer a list of written 29 questions.

Attorney Diana Tennis who is not associated with the Anthony case thinks it`s unlikely the judge will force Casey to answer such questions as how many children did Zenaida have? What were the children`s names? What kind of car did she drive? And did she have any tattoos?

Tennis believes such questions would violate Casey`s constitutional Fifth Amendment right to not incriminate herself in her felony case.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her answers in any way could be used against her. And frankly, all of these answers could be used against her. She has the right to say thank you, but no, thank you, I prefer not to answer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Straight back to counsel for the real Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez.

Keith Mitnik, no stranger to the courtroom. His client apparently has lost her home. Can`t get a job. You name it. She`s got children to raise. Her name has been smeared by many people who believe she`s the person accused of kidnapping little Caylee.

Mt. Mitnik, they`ve made it very clear that the tot mom is taking the Fifth. She`s not going to answer your questions. If you could ask her one question, and get an answer, what would it be?

MITNIK: It would simply be, and it`s in those, in those questions, is this Zenaida Gonzalez -- and we gave her a picture -- the lady that you were talking about? Her lawyers have said no. Her lawyers have said she told the police no. They put in public court files that no.

So what possible incrimination could it have for her to verify under oath, once and for all, no.

GRACE: And she, she also.

MITNIK: How about answer that one question and stop giving lip service and let her answer that question. In which lost in here, she`s had the gall to sue Zenaida Gonzalez in a counterclaim. You cannot exercise your civil justice rights and sit quiet saying, I have a criminal matter. You can`t have it both ways.

GRACE: And Mr. Mitnik, no offense, but when your client does show up in court, please don`t have her wearing that revealing tank top. It`s not doing anybody any favors.

We are taking your calls live. To Elana in California, hi, dear, what`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I have a 2-year-old granddaughter and twin 10-month-old granddaughters. And unlike Caylee, who lived with George and Cindy, our granddaughter lives with their grandparents -- their parents, rather, about 10 miles from us. And I couldn`t go for a week without seeing my granddaughters much less 31 days.

Have Cindy or George ever addressed how they sat around for 31 days without seeing Caylee? That`s just not normal grandparent reaction.

GRACE: You know, if -- that were the case, I would agree with you. But I have indications that the Anthonys were beside themselves because they wanted to see her.

Correct me if I`m wrong, Kathi Belich, but weren`t they champing at the bits to see little Caylee and didn`t tot mom tell them she wanted to go away from them so she could bond with Caylee?

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: Yes. They were beside themselves. They were worried. They were talking about it among themselves. I know Cindy had talked to co-workers about it. She was worried that she hadn`t seen Caylee all month.

She was -- Casey kept giving excuses about why she couldn`t see Caylee that whole month. There were text messages back and forth. She was very concerned. And when you listen to that 911 call when she said that there`s something wrong, there`s a smell of a dead body in the car, you can hear in her voice the emotion. She was very concerned during that month.

GRACE: And of course.

BELICH: And then that was the worst of it.

GRACE: Kathi, that`s just what we happened to hear. Can you imagine the phone messages and text messages must have been sending the tot mom trying to see Caylee again?

But I agree with Elana, if they have just sat by on their thumbs for a solid month, that would be highly unusual. But I don`t get the sense that that is what has happened. We just don`t have all the inside information about how much they wanted to see the little Caylee.

I want to go back to the lawyers, Susan Moss, Ray Giudice, Mickey Sherman.

We now understand that the video -- that the depositions are going to be videotaped and released to the public. The depositions of brother Lee, Cindy, and George Anthony.

Any reason, Sue Moss, they shouldn`t be?

SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Well, I don`t think we`re really going to get much in terms of depositions, because I think everyone is going to take their Fifth Amendment rights. But in most jurisdictions you`re allowed to videotape, and those videotapes are allowed to be released.

GRACE: Mickey?

MICKEY SHERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "HOW CAN YOU DEFEND THOSE PEOPLE?": I disagree. How does that advance the cause of justice, civil or criminal? I mean is the idea to poison both the civil possible potential jury pool as well as the criminal? I don`t see the point.

GRACE: But why would it poison the jury pool? I mean, why would their questions and answers poison a jury pool, Ray Giudice?

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, look, this case is going to be picked -- the jury is going to be picked in the next few months. There -- people are forming an impression. And if this is a pursuit of civil justice, I can`t understand why they want to take the deposition of George who just tried to commit suicide, is under heavy medication, and is in a psychiatric hospital.

I agree with Mickey, what does that help the pursuit of civil justice in this case and how does that help a jury be -- a fair jury be picked?

GRACE: Well, I can tell you right now that George Anthony is not going to be deposed...

GIUDICE: Is not going to be deposed. That`s right.

GRACE: . on February 26th to 27th. I guess.

GIUDICE: But as a lawyer, you can`t.

GRACE: That`s not going to happen.

GIUDICE: Has the lawyer canceled his.

GRACE: Wait, wait, wait. Hold on.

GIUDICE: OK. I`m sorry.

GRACE: Hold on. What about the other two depositions, Giudice?

GIUDICE: Well, Lee, if there`s a good faith basis for his believing, and his lawyers announced that he is under investigation for serious criminal charges of obstruction, he can take the Fifth and he will.

GRACE: And Susan Moss, what about Cindy Anthony?

MOSS: Well, she`s got some obstruction problems, too.

GIUDICE: Right.

MOSS: Remember, she may have lied about the brush and there`s some other obstruction issues that might come through.

GRACE: OK, we`re taking your calls live. But right now, onto a memorial now apparently set down, the location set as well.

What about it, Natisha Lance?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, this is -- the memorial is going to be held at Orlando First Baptist -- First Baptist Church of Orlando, which is not too far from the jail, just down the street. And what they are saying is that this could possibly happen on February 10th. However, they are not confirming the specific date to us.

And what reports are saying is that Cindy Anthony has picked out some flowers. She`s also in the process of doing arrangements for that memorial. This church seats about 5,000 people. And I did go over there today and take a look at it. It is a huge, massive compound over there.

So we would expect to see a lot of people there. But February 10th is the date tentatively that we are looking at, but no confirmation on that date yet.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, the bounty hunter who first bonded tot mom out, came off the bond and then looked exhaustively for little Caylee. Leonard`s joining us from Sacramento, California.

Leonard, very quickly, regarding this whole idea that the Anthonys are going to gather together behind bars and have a video grieving process, you know, what do you think? Do you think they`re really going to go through with it? Because in the jurisdiction of Florida, all of that is taped and released. It`s public document.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPED LOOK FOR CAYLEE & SPENT TIME WITH CASEY ANTHONY: Well, I`ve got to believe that Cindy is definitely going to go through with it. I -- don`t know that George will be up to it, or Lee. But I can tell you this, Cindy will be there in all of her blazing glories. There`s no doubt about it.

GRACE: Man, you really have it out for Cindy Anthony. Remember, the tot mom, Casey Anthony, is the one facing trial. Not Cindy Anthony. But while I`ve got you.

PADILLA: Everything has a genesis.

GRACE: OK. Remember, you can`t blame the sins of the child, not blamed on the parents. Keep -- that in mind. They`re not responsible for this.

Leonard Padilla, while I`ve got you, what do you make of the fact that there is going to be the public memorial but no private funeral to actually lay Caylee to rest has been made?

PADILLA: Well, I think the situation is that Cindy wants a public memorial. She wants to have 5,000 people there. There`s nothing wrong with that. I do know that some people are talking about not going because of Cindy`s attitude towards a public memorial and --making it an occasion that`s other than just for Caylee.

In other words, Caylee is the.

GRACE: Well, you -- you can`t really have a public memorial and have it something intimate and private. So what you`re saying is impossible. But what`s the holdup in a real funeral to lay her remains to rest is my question.

PADILLA: It`s Cindy. It hasn`t got anything to do with anybody else. It`s Cindy. She`s calling the shots.

GRACE: To -- to Dr. Michael Bell joining us out of Miami, he`s the Palm Beach County chief medical examiner.

Dr. Bell, all the tests have been done. What`s the holdup on the funeral?

DR. MICHAEL BELL, PALM BEACH CO. CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, it`s my understanding that the defense is still examining some of the remains, or the remains of the child.

GRACE: Well, the second autopsy is complete. And any tissue sampling is not going to change the burial of the remains.

BELL: I would agree. So I guess I don`t know what`s going on.

GRACE: OK.

BELL: I don`t know why there`s delay.

GRACE: I was just wondering if there was some medical reason that I couldn`t comprehend.

Everyone, joining us out of Miami, Dr. Michael Bell. We`ll all be right back. But as we go to break, a very happy birthday to a Minnesota friend of the show, Tawney. She is bed ridden right now, expecting her second child.

Tawney, please stay strong and happy birthday.

And tonight a very special get-well to Aunt Ella Stokes, Jacksonville, Florida. At 99 years old, she inspires all of us.

And tonight our thoughts and prayers are with you. And please, Aunt Ella Stokes, Jacksonville, Florida, keep the faith.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: You think she`s going to change her mind and let her -- I mean, what can I say to her on the air? Because I can get the one person to let me say what I need to say, or what you want me to say to Zany. What do you want me to tell her that`s going to make her bring her back?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: Tell her that we forgive her. That`s all we want is -- our Caylee.

CINDY ANTHONY: I told her that yesterday.

CASEY ANTHONY: Well, mom, that`s -- again, that`s all I can think of. That`s all I can say.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. I want to go straight back out to the lines. Sheila in Florida, hi, Sheila.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I just want to know who`s paying her lawyers?

GRACE: Excellent question. Natisha Lance, what do we know about that?

LANCE: That has been a big question all along, Nancy. And we don`t know the exact answer to it. But we do know that there have been some media deals that have been done, and allegedly Jose Baez, her attorney, has been paid some money for some video that has been licensed to ABC News as well as NBC News.

But we don`t know who`s paying these bills. It`s not Casey Anthony.

GRACE: Well, we also know that over $200,000 have changed hands between media and somebody, be it the defense team or somebody is getting paid that money.

To Detective Lieutenant Steven Rogers with the Nutley, New Jersey Police Department, former member of the FBI Terrorism Task Force.

Detective, thank you for being with us. This investigation is not yet closed. Does that mean there could be additional information the defense has yet to see?

DET. LT. STEVE ROGERS, NUTLEY, NEW JERSEY, POLICE DEPARTMENT: Yes. Nancy, the police are going to let no stone be left unturned in this case. They`re going to watch every interview, look at people`s body language. This is going to be a battle of the scientists in a court of law. This case is far from over.

GRACE: And Detective, do you believe that the defense should be allowed to view the crime scene where the body was found anyway unsupervised?

ROGERS: Well, if it still is indeed a crime scene. If the police received all the evidence that they need to collect at that crime scene and if it`s no longer guarded by the police, sure, they could go in there. I don`t think they`re going to find very much.

GRACE: Everyone, we are taking your calls. But right now switching gears to the Olivia Newton-John story. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The former boyfriend of singer Olivia Newton- John has been missing for over two years. But now a private investigator says he has evidence Patrick McDermott is alive.

According to private investigator Philip Klein, McDermott has been sailing between Ports of Mexico and South America reportedly working as a deckhand on luxury boats. Klein reportedly claimed he was able to track McDermott to a coast 25 miles north of Puerto Vallarta, Mexico, using a Web site that tracks the location of all its visitors.

Klein believes McDermott visited the site which was dedicated to his disappearance. Klein has spoken to a number of witnesses who say they have seen McDermott in the last couple of years. The P.I. believes McDermott faked his own death to avoid paying tens of thousands of dollars in debt and to clear the way for his teenage son to collect the McDermott`s life insurance policy worth over $100,000.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Tom O`Neil with "In Touch Weekly." Tom, what gives? This guy is alive?

(LAUGHTER)

TOM O`NEIL, SENIOR EDITOR IN TOUCH WEEKLY, COVERING STORY: I think we always suspected that, Nancy. It was a little too suspicious that he disappeared when he did. At the time that he vanished off during this boating expedition. He was not only behind on his rent.

GRACE: Well, you could say that about half of America right now.

O`NEIL: I know but he had just busted up with Olivia Newton-John.

GRACE: So?

O`NEIL: He had just been served with a court order that says you either come up with this money for that child support.

GRACE: You`ve never been dumped?

O`NEIL: .or you go to jail.

GRACE: You didn`t fake your own death.

O`NEIL: Well, he -- hasn`t been formally accused of that yet. But the circumstances of the boat trip, too, when he vanished are very suspicious, Nancy.

GRACE: Out to our producer, Ellie Jostad. Ellie, why do we think McDermott is alive?

ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER, COVERING STORY: Well, there is a private investigator who`s hired by "Dateline NBC." This investigator set up a Web site, a "Find Patrick McDermott" Web site, in hopes that McDermott himself would visit this Web site and thus reveal his whereabouts. Now this P.I. says that not only did somebody check the Web site from the coast of Mexico, but that he has sightings of McDermott in those areas that coincide to places where the Web site was checked.

GRACE: Sightings by whom?

JOSTAD: Well, there`s a variety of people. He says there`s five American tourists who are willing to sign affidavits they saw McDermott. There`s also a couple of waiters, a couple of bartenders, people in the area who claimed who`ve seen him.

GRACE: OK. This is what I don`t get, Ellie Jostad. They`re willing to sign an affidavit.

JOSTAD: Right.

GRACE: Why don`t they sign the affidavit and make themselves known?

JOSTAD: Right.

GRACE: If they`re legit, let`s find out who they are.

JOSTAD: Good question, Nancy.

GRACE: And isn`t it true, Tom O`Neil, joining us from "In Touch Weekly," that this Web site is called a spider site? In other words it`s a fake Web site, and what it does is it monitors who`s checking the Web site. And the same person kept checking, where is Patrick McDermott? Hello, it`s Patrick McDermott.

O`NEIL: And Nancy, it was right after the investigators tipped of his ex-wife and son.

GRACE: What an idiot!

O`NEIL: . that by the way this Web site exists and then, of course, they tracked to see where the hits were coming from. And they came from a place that they knew he was at.

Nancy, this is the second investigation. There was an investigation done by Nick Papas, the Australian journalist, three years ago that came to these same conclusions and put him in the same location.

GRACE: And so what do we -- how has he been supporting himself, do we believe?

O`NEIL: Well, he speaks Spanish. And he is an accomplished boater and a deckhand. He`s working on these luxury liners back and forth. But the question is, how is he getting in and out of these ports between Mexico and South America with a passport?

And the Coast Guard may have the answer to that. When he went missing in 2006 it was discovered that he had a second passport made out to the name of Patrick Kim, with Kim being his middle name, and it`s believed that he`s using that.

GRACE: To the lawyers, Susan Moss, Ray Giudice, Mickey Sherman.

Mickey Sherman, Susan Moss, I don`t get it. I`ve got to show photo I.D. when I try to use my American Express card at the bookstore. So how does this guy pull it off?

MOSS: I don`t know. But he`s the one that they want. And they want him for insurance fraud, for life insurance fraud, for Social Security fraud, for child support fraud. This guy`s going down, and not into some mythical ocean.

GRACE: To Giudice and Sherman, I was about to ask what type of criminal liability would he be facing, Mickey?

SHERMAN: Not a whole lot. And you know, and that`s the key.

GRACE: Didn`t you just hear Moss?

SHERMAN: Yes, I -- I disagree. There`s so much media involved in this thing. And -- where are the insurance investigators? Where`s the FBI? Where`s the police? It`s not the authorities looking for him. It`s people who want to make a cool story out of it that are looking for him. That`s the.

GRACE: Ray Giudice?

GIUDICE: Homeland Security is not looking for this guy. There`s no Interpol warrant. He`s crossing the border which they consider to be a legal passport. He`s fine. He`s in international waters. Unless somebody is going to go and take this very serious custody child support contempt order and take him off some boat off the international waters, he ain`t coming back.

GRACE: Susan Moss, recap of those criminal charges possible?

MOSS: What about that Social Security fraud? What about the life insurance fraud? What about the fact that Mexico does have an arrangement to get child support?

GRACE: OK. Tom O`Neil, how much money are we talking about?

O`NEIL: Well, the life insurance policy is worth $100,000, but it hasn`t been claimed yet. So if it`s claimed, yes, then somebody could press fraud.

GRACE: OK.

O`NEIL: But -- for now it`s not.

GRACE: Ellie, really, who wants him back?

JOSTAD: Well, that`s a good question. Apparently, you know, obviously, his family would like him back. Olivia Newton-John said that she suffered depression after he disappeared so there are people that love and care about him.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LILLIAN GLASS, PSYCHOLOGIST, AUTHOR OF "I KNOW WHAT YOU`RE THINKING": He`s living it physically, but not mentally and he`s a very troubled individual.

GRACE: But why would somebody go through the trouble of faking their own death and not seeing their family? Isn`t that a little extreme, Lillian?

GLASS: Absolutely. I mean you`ve got someone who`s really psychologically very disturbed, who`s a runner, who is a non-coper, and when things got tough, he ran and very selfish and very cowardly.

GRACE: Special thanks to Tom O`Neil and Ellie Jostad.

Right now let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant First Class George Stanciel, 40, Greenwood, Mississippi, killed Iraq on a second tour. Lost his life saving fellow soldiers. Had a smile that lit up a room, dreamed of retiring to spend time with his children.

Favorite romantic lines to his wife, "I love you all the time." Leaves behind widow Shakita, son and a daughter.

George Stanciel, American hero.

Thanks to our guests and especially for you for being with us and a special good night from Denver friends of the show, Donald and Paul. Aren`t they handsome?

Everybody, I`ll see you tomorrow night at 8:00 sharp Eastern and until then, good night, friend.

END