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NANCY GRACE

Investigative Documents Show Casey Anthony`s Preoccupation With Social Life

Aired September 24, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 14 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. We learn mom, Casey`s, movements, her lifestyle, her very thinking in the days leading up to and immediately following her little girl`s disappearance. Over 600 pages of investigative files reveal mom, Casey, rarely mentioned her daughter, complained she needed a, quote, "freaking vacation," inviting friends to hip-hop parties, ladies` nights at clubs and even to a bar`s "hot body" contest, this just days after little Caylee vanishes, her social life like a roller-coaster of men, having manicures, pedicures, even getting a tattoo that says, "The good life" after her daughter is gone, giddy over a new boyfriend.

We learn Casey Anthony borrowed a neighbor`s shovel, then backed her car into the family`s garage three times. Later, that very car towed after she said it ran out of gas. And her family described the smell of death in the car. It ultimately made them frantic.

Bombshell new theories emerge tonight. Huge amounts of chloroform found in mom, Casey`s, car trunk, along with evidence of human decomposition. Reports reveal police now believe mom, Casey, disposed of little Caylee in a dumpster near a local check-cash business, the same place the car was abandoned.

Tonight: Why were Casey Anthony`s e-mails just before little Caylee was reported missing deleted? At the same time, a huge chunk of mom, Casey`s, MySpace messages completely wiped out. Why? And in the last hours, the Zenaida Gonzalez attached to Sawgrass apartments files a defamation lawsuit against mom, Casey, Anthony. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Investigative interviews with Casey`s friend, Amy Huizenga, and boyfriend Tony Lazzarro (ph) reveal new information about a rich social life for Casey Anthony not long after her daughter was gone from the picture.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: I lied.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Huizenga tells investigators, "I know she had started smoking more pot than she ever had. She would maybe eat a brownie here or there, maybe smoke every once in a great while. But she did tell me that she`s been smoking a lot more pot."

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: That was a lie.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That statement about Casey referred to mid-June, right around the time Caylee was last seen.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: Walked her to the stairs. That`s where I`ve dropped her off a bunch of other times.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I lied.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So many text machines Casey received and also that she sent out, and those were her favorite topics, who she wanted to have sex with, drinking and smoking pot. That seemed to be the thing she was concentrating on mostly, not about Caylee.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: That was a lie.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I dropped her off at that apartment.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, you didn`t.

CASEY ANTHONY: That`s exactly where I dropped her off.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, you didn`t.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey writes, "You and the girl should try and come out to Fusian this week. There`s a "hot body" contest. First prize is $50 and a bottle. It`s the all-white party.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I lied.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Pot brownies? And tonight, police still on high alert for four little children in extreme danger, Missouri.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities are frantically searching for four Missouri children who are believed to be in extreme and imminent danger. Police say the four children were abducted by their own mother, 39-year-old Shirley Riggs (ph), who does not have custody of any of the children. According to cops, Riggs was having an unsupervised overnight visit with the children when she put them in a 1992 Dodge Caravan and fled the area.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s been sitting at this house all summer to get the children, and it keeps gets getting delayed and delayed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is not the first time Riggs has taken the children, With reports saying this is now the fourth time she has taken them, the first three times out of state. Police are now on the alert in Denver, Colorado, and Oklahoma, hoping to find Riggs and return the children to safety.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening, I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. The desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Reams of documents released in the Casey Anthony investigation reveal shocking new details.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: That was a lie.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: She said, Hi, Mommy, and she started telling me a story, talking to me about her shoes and books.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I lied.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Boyfriend Tony Lazzarro reveals, "She would wake up or wake me either in the middle of the night or I would just wake up in the middle of the night and see that she was sweaty in bed. And I would ask her why, and she said that she would have a nightmare."

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: She was excited to talk to me.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: That was a lie.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: The first time I`d been away from her for more than a day.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Around the first week of July, Casey told Amy that Caylee was with the nanny at Seaworld.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I lied.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The investigator asked, "She had her nails done that week?" Amy says, "yes, I`m pretty sure she had those done on Tuesday."

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: After about 7:00 o`clock, when I still hadn`t heard anything, I was getting pretty upset, pretty frantic.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey gets a tattoo on her shoulder that reads, Buena Vita, "good life."

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: That was a lie.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The investigator says, "So she got her fingernails cleaned, done up pretty, and a tattoo, in the week that Tony is gone?" Amy answers, "Uh-huh." The investigator says, "Goes out partying the 2nd and 3rd?" Amy says, "And the fourth." "The 4th," the investigator asks? Amy answers, "Because we had a 4th of July party."

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I wasn`t sure what I`d say about not knowing where Caylee was, still hoping that I would get a call or, you know, find out that Caylee was coming back so that I could go get her.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I lied.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In his interview, boyfriend Tony Lazzarro reveals that in the second week of July, after he returned from a trip to New York, he says he and Casey and friends watched a USC fight (ph) at a local restaurant and went grocery shopping the next day.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: That was a lie.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: "You and the girl should try and come out to Fusian this week. There`s a `hot body` contest. First prize, $50 and a bottle. It`s the all-white party. Give me a shout," this dated June 25, 10:33 AM. A few days before, 8:05 AM, "Hey, we should get together. Come out to Fusian, ladies` night until midnight. Give me a call." This is 8:00 o`clock in the morning?

Mark Williams, what`s going on?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Boy, oh, boy. You know, your guess is at good as mine, Nancy.

GRACE: No. No, no, no. I don`t have a guess, Mark Williams. I have an educated assumption as to what`s happening. Continue.

WILLIAMS: Well, obviously, she sends these text messages to her friend, Brittany Schieber, who invites her on her birthday to come out to this "hot body" contest at Fusian, again, for a $50 prize and a bottle of booze. I mean, that was her life after little Caylee allegedly went missing. She had no remorse whatsoever. She did not care whatsoever about what happened to little Caylee, even though she tells investigators that she couldn`t live a day without seeing little Caylee.

Little Caylee is missing on June 16, as best as we can find out, and you know, she`s sending these text messages for June 25, nine days after Caylee went missing, Nancy.

GRACE: What did you learn? What jumps out at you about these reams of interviews and text messages we have found?

WILLIAMS: Well, the big thing is, taking a closer look at the documents, Lee Anthony, Casey`s older brother, telling investigators that when his sister went back to the house in July, mid-July, around the 14th or 15th, after she had been missing for nearly 30 days, he tried to mediate a bad situation between Casey and her mother.

And basically, she said -- and I`m quoting from the documents, you know, Maybe it`s because I`m a spiteful (DELETED) that I cannot produce Caylee and you (ph) won`t see Caylee. And it just -- it went on like that, and that just knocks everybody`s socks off because she had been stealing, she had been philandering from her parents, she had been driving around. And you know, all this time, she`s been living with boyfriends.

GRACE: Out to the lines. We`re taking your calls live. Rochelle, Iowa. Hi, Rochelle.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think that since all these documents have come out, that maybe this would open the parents` eyes, maybe, that she did have some involvement?

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, trial lawyer out of Atlanta Renee Rockwell and high-profile trial lawyer out of the Seattle jurisdiction Anne Bremner. What about it, Renee?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: This is not going to make any difference, I don`t think, with the parents. I think they`ve already got an opinion. But Nancy, they are standing by their -- the only piece of the family that they have left along those lines. I can totally understand what they`re doing.

GRACE: Anne?

ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I agree. And the question also is whether or not it makes a difference with the authorities. But of course, they already had those documents and they released them, and there are no charges.

GRACE: Here`s part of the documents we`re seeing. A lot (ph) from Lee Anthony states the smell in the car was atrocious. He couldn`t even stand to be next to the car. Over a minute beside the car, and he`d have to leave and breathe. Asked sister about it. She said it started when two squirrels crawled up under the hood and died. She later gave a different story, Anne Bremner, stating somebody must have run over an animal, that it was plastered on the front of her car. She can`t even keep the story straight about a dead animal?

BREMNER: Well, you know, that squirrel story was a bit too much. I mean, I...

GRACE: A bit too much.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: I`m talking about a missing little girl.

BREMNER: Well, you are, Nancy, but the thing is, you said it best when you said, I have an educated assumption about what this is. Our guess is as good as anybody else`s. Can this be charged? And the answer is no right now, even though she lies, lies and lies some more.

GRACE: To Caryn Stark, psychologist joining us in New York. The caller, Rochelle from are Iowa, wants to know, the release of all of these police files -- if it does open the parents` eyes, what will they do about it, if anything?

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, you would think that they would really try, then, to influence their daughter to get more information. But Nancy, I truly doubt that it`s going to open their eyes. They know what she`s like. They`ve lived with her. And they need to have denial right now.

GRACE: Why?

STARK: Because it`s their daughter. They feel connected to her. They want to believe. And that`s what denial is all about.

GRACE: You are seeing more from the police documents. This is more of Lee Anthony, regarding getting to the home. That`s what we just talked about. We`ll move on.

I want to go out to Nikki Pierce with WDBO radio. Weigh in, Nikki.

NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: Well, what seems to jump out to me from these documents is just the depiction of her lifestyle, the text messages, the MySpace messages, Come party here, come party there. It`s clear that there`s one reference in 500-something text messages about Caylee.

GRACE: What can you tell me about the pot and the pot brownies, Mark Williams?

WILLIAMS: Well, she mentioned that -- that people have seen her use a little bit more pot, been using some brownies, and basically, she`s been on more marijuana than she had been in the past, Nancy.

GRACE: Was this around the time Caylee goes missing?

WILLIAMS: Yes, it was, Nancy.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Mom has thrown it in my face many times before that I`m an unfit mother. And you know, maybe she`s right and maybe I am." Lee says partly because of that atrocious smell in the car, their mother angrily confronted Casey about her claim that the nanny took Caylee, telling Casey, quote, "We could have found her a month ago. Why did you wait? What have you done?"

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re more afraid of your mom`s reaction than you are if you ever see your daughter again?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, I`m absolutely petrified. Absolutely petrified. I know my mom never will forgive me.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Reams of documents inside the police investigation reveal the thinking, the lifestyle of mom, Casey Anthony, around the time her daughter disappeared.

To Marc Klaas, child advocate, president and founder of Klaas Kids Foundation. Marc, what do you think after speaking her very thoughts through hundreds of text messages?

MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: Well, I think that what we`re seeing here is a girl whose life changed dramatically, in her mind for the better, once her child was gone. She was complaining a lot beforehand, having these issues with her mother, being sort of tethered to the home itself. But once Caylee was gone, in her mind, she seemed to blossom. She got to go to the party. She got to go out. She got to have the life that she seemed to really want.

And I think just like others before her, Michael (ph) Peterson, Scott Peterson, Mark Hacking, most importantly, Susan Smith, there was a child in the way of the life they wanted, and the best way to get the life they wanted, apparently, in their minds, was to eliminate the person that was the hindrance.

GRACE: Out to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who actually put up the original $500,000 bond. You`ve read through these text messages. What do you see? Does it confirm your original thoughts?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, my original thoughts were that she`d given the baby away or the baby was somewhere out of the residence. But obviously...

GRACE: But did you just see what we`ve just put up...

PADILLA: Yes.

GRACE: ... that she left behind the baby doll?

PADILLA: And what Marc just said is absolutely correct, I`m telling you. He hit it -- hit the nail right on the head. And if you go to the excuses that she was building already back on the 27th, if you look at that and take that apart word by word, where she says to her friend, I got rid of the squirrel, I scraped it off the side of the car -- that was done -- I`m telling you, it was done on the evening of the, 26th when that car ran out of gas and it was next to a dumpster. And it was probably by luck that she considered it, Hey, I`ve got rid of the body now, except the bag ripped and left a decomposing portion of the body in the trunk.

GRACE: Leonard Padilla, I could not hear what you were saying. What was the date that she stated she scraped the animal off her car?

PADILLA: I believe it was the 27th, if you look in those documents.

GRACE: Yes. So that`s three separate stories, trying to explain away the smell of human decay within the car.

We are taking your calls live. To Tammy in Illinois. Hi, Tammy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Evening, Nancy. Love you, love your show.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you for sharing your beautiful babies with your viewing family.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know, Nancy, I`m wondering, wouldn`t it be better if Casey did not live with her parents at this particular time? In other words, if Casey was on her own, let`s say, in a more desperate, destitute situation, would she psychologically be more inclined to crack under the pressure and perhaps provide more information to authorities as to what might have happened to Caylee?

GRACE: You know, Tammy, that`s an interesting question. Caryn Stark, do you think anything will make her give up the truth?

STARK: I really don`t, Nancy, because you`re not talking about somebody who`s in touch with any of her feelings. And so how could -- it wouldn`t make a bit of a difference whether she was with her parents or not. She doesn`t understand to feel sorry about any of this.

GRACE: Take a listen to part of the police interrogation.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go back to your statement. You dropped off your - - you dropped off Caylee on June 9, and walk me through. You dropped her off to go work?

CASEY ANTHONY: Uh-huh.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Get off of work and -- go from there.

CASEY ANTHONY: I got off of work, left Universal, driving back to pick up Caylee, like a normal day. And I show up to the apartment, knock on the door. Nobody answers. So I called Zenaida`s cell phone, and it`s out of service. It says that the phone is no longer in service. Excuse me.

So I sit down on the steps and wait for a little bit to see if maybe it was just a fluke, if something happened. And time passed. I didn`t hear from anyone. No one showed up to the house. So I went over to Jay Blanchard Park and checked a couple other places where maybe possibly they would`ve gone, a couple stores, just regular places that I know Zenaida shops at and she`s taken Caylee before.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How long ago would you say you dropped the child off there from the beginning of -- end of `06, beginning of `07 to...

CASEY ANTHONY: I think about six, seven months, so maybe the middle of 2007.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So she moved into Sawgrass about the middle of `07?

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s been at that apartment in Sawgrass for about the last three or four months. She`d lived with her mom for a little bit.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Had you dropped the child off there before?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you had to find the place, would you be able to find it?

CASEY ANTHONY: Most likely, yes. I think I`d remember the house.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to go through this, and I want you to stop me at the part that isn`t the truth, OK? You take your daughter and you drop her off on June the 9th, OK...

CASEY ANTHONY: Uh-huh.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... at somebody -- at a baby-sitter`s house, OK? Now, this is a baby-sitter that lives at this apartment, OK, that`s been vacant...

CASEY ANTHONY: I dropped her off at that apartment.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

CASEY ANTHONY: At those stairs.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, you just walked her -- you dropped her off and...

CASEY ANTHONY: I walked her to the stairs. That`s where I`ve dropped her off a bunch of other times besides just that day.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And when you dropped her off, who took her at that point?

CASEY ANTHONY: Zanny did. She took her at that point.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you left her in Zanny`s care...

CASEY ANTHONY: Uh-huh.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... on June the 9th, OK? So far, that`s right?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You mentioned something before we went on tape about your cell phones.

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes. I have two phones. I had just received a new phone through work, through Universal. The phone won`t keep charged, so I use my old phone that I actually had gotten again through Universal for work.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Did you lose the phone?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And in that phone, you`re saying, was a SIM card and the SIM card had the contact information?

CASEY ANTHONY: Actually, the SIM card is in my Nokia phone, but I know there`s numbers saved to the cell phone itself. So if we get the actual phone, I know I have one other number for Zenaida.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But they`re not in your SIM card?

CASEY ANTHONY: They`re not saved on the SIM card, they`re saved on the phone. I`ve been trying to figure out on that new phone how to save numbers from the phone to the SIM card and switch them back and forth so that I have everything all in one piece.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There were so many text messages that Casey received and also that she sent out, and those were her favorite topics, whom she wanted to have sex with, drinking and smoking pot. That seemed to be the thing she was concentrating on, mostly, not about Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tony Lazzarro, the boyfriend that Casey had, he said all the times they were together, the nights she spent at his house, when they would go out, he never saw her call the baby-sitter, which most moms would check up on their kid, but that apparently is something Casey didn`t do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: The thinking behind mom, Casey Anthony`s, actions now being revealed around the time little Caylee went missing, just before and after that fateful of day.

Straight out to the lines. Kelly in Florida. Hi, Kelly.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for taking my call.

GRACE: Thank you for calling. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was wondering, my question pertains to that dumpster where Casey Anthony`s car was found out of gas. I was wondering if the police or anyone has checked into what disposal company is responsible for emptying the contents of that dumpster and how often, and more importantly, what landfill or dump site those contents might have been taken to so searchers could perhaps check the landfill for remains?

GRACE: Well, Kelly, you`re right on point because a new theory has emerged that little Caylee was put in the dumpster there at the local Amscot check-cashing company.

I want to go out to Mark Williams with WNDB. What can you tell me about this theory? It`s very reminiscent of the disposal of Lori Hacking`s body.

WILLIAMS: Well, the latest theory, and it`s in a published report, is that the little girl, Caylee, possibly drowned in her family`s swimming pool...

GRACE: OK, wa-wa-wa-wa-wait. Just let me shoot that down right now...

WILLIAMS: OK.

GRACE: ... because that does not explain the premeditation behind the computer Web searches for chloroform and the chloroform in the car. That doesn`t fit with an accident in the -- in the swimming pool. But I`m talking about disposal of a body in a dumpster. That`s what I asked you.

WILLIAMS: Well, there`s a theory that she deposited of the body in that dumpster near the Amscot check-cashing place where she left her car.

GRACE: Is that a police theory?

WILLIAMS: That is in a published report, and I think police are right now looking at that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RICHARD GRUND, DAD OF CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-FIANCE, JESSE GRUND: I spotted right then and there she was pregnant, but she was telling everybody she had female problems and she wasn`t pregnant. My son came in, and told me that that`s Casey, the girl that I dated.

And I said, well, son, she`s pregnant. Oh, no, no. She`s only got female problems. I asked her about that, that`s what she has told everybody, including her family.

I said, no, I know a woman that`s pregnant. She was pregnant.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Grund says he doesn`t believe Casey would ever intentionally hurt Caylee, but he did say there were times Casey would leave her little girl unattended. Something possibly could have accidentally happened to Caylee, Grund told investigators, and if something accidentally happened to Caylee, I literally believe that Casey would have an emotional break down to the point where I almost believe she would take Caylee and put her somewhere, and then tell herself a new story, a new reality of what happened to her.

The last time Caylee was seen for sure was on Father`s Day, June 15th, when this video was shot. Investigators asked Grund about that week, saying, from the 17th through the 23rd, none of your friends, you or any of your friends, can account for where Casey or the child are?

And Grund answered, correct, no idea. It was almost as if she fell off the face of the planet.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: A female problem? It was about seven months of a problem, according to mom, Casey Anthony. Never wanting the child, wanting to put the child up for adoption. Now the child is gone. I`m talking about a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, little Caylee.

And back to the accident theory that you just heard, espoused.

To the lawyers, Renee Rockwell, Anne Bremner, doesn`t disposal of the body totally defeat -- Anne Bremner -- the theory of an accident? And if I found you dead at the foot of the stairs, obviously, from a fall, would you want me to go bury you in my backyard?

ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No.

GRACE: Why not call 911?

BREMNER: Well, it doesn`t completely defeat it, Nancy. The fact is, she could have had an accident and then panicked and disposed of the body.

GRACE: Panic? Why?

BREMNER: Because she didn`t mean to do anything and she`s -- a very short period of time at which that -- you know I keep thinking the prosecution`s opening statement in this case if they were to charge it would be like Buffalo Springfield.

There`s something happening here and that happened here and what it is ain`t exactly clear. I know the song is "Before Your Time," Nancy, but from mine. And I think that it`s.

GRACE: My advice to you, since you didn`t ask, is don`t use that on a jury.

Renee Rockwell, all the espousing of accident is complete BS, because how can you possibly -- even you two, how can you contort the facts to show accident when you have her Web searches for chloroform?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, there`s not going to be a trial until they suppose there is a homicide.

GRACE: If you could just answer the question. That would be helpful.

ROCKWELL: You have to have a crime before you can put up a defensive accident.

GRACE: OK. So I`m assuming.

ROCKWELL: You don`t see any indictment, do you?

GRACE: I`m assuming you`re not going to answer. Let`s go to Ron.

ROCKWELL: But, Nancy, what do you have here?

GRACE: No, no, no. Three strikes, you`re out.

Ron Shindel, former NYPD deputy inspector, joining us from Manhattan. All the wishful that this child died in some type of accident, possibly, in the family`s above-ground pool in the backyard, is BS, because we`ve got the mom, according to police sources, on the computer, looking up chloroform. Multiple Web sites.

All this about she panicked, it`s impossible. That does not fit with the facts.

RON SHINDEL, FORMER NYPD DEPUTY INSPECTOR: Nancy, I`m not buying an accidental theory at all. I think there`s a lot of foul play here. And she -- all of her actions show that she`s covering up something.

There is something here that`s absolutely wrong. Everything that leads up to this day, everything that leads up to the fact that she hid it from her parents, everything that leads up to the interviews that were given by her friends and family.

There is something very wrong here, and it`s not about an accident.

GRACE: You`re seeing new video that we got from ABC News. There`s little Caylee at happier times, playing.

(INAUDIBLE) from the investigation file, Cindy Anthony comes to visit Brittany Schieber at her home, Brittany tells cops what Cindy told her, Caylee was missing. She -- Cindy Anthony -- feels Casey is hiding something.

That Casey originally said she`s going to Jacksonville for a month, job search, she dropped the baby off at the babysitter. That story, of course, later changed to going to Tampa. We also learn about heavy, heavy pot use.

In any way, Anne Bremner, Renee Rockwell -- first to you, Anne Bremner, would extensive use of pot, of voluntary drug use be a defense?

BREMNER: Nancy and I have argued about this from before. And generally, it is not. It`s only in very certain circumstances with specific intent crimes, in about 10 prerequisite types of requirements to even get it before a jury. That`s assuming there is a charge.

GRACE: Renee?

ROCKWELL: I agree with Anne. Nothing is going to work along those lines, Nancy.

GRACE: Out to the lines to Lauren in Alabama. Hi, Lauren.

LAUREN, ALABAMA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. I love your show.

GRACE: Thank you.

LAUREN: My question is, does Casey still stand by her story that she dropped Caylee off at Zenaida`s house, or now that the cops found that to be a lie? Or has she made up a new story?

GRACE: To Nikki Pierce with WDBO Radio.

Nikki, that`s a story she`s sticking at -- sticking to with police. But she also told security with Leonard Padilla that she dropped -- that she was at the park, at Jay Blanchard Park, and left the baby with Zenaida Gonzalez and her sister, Samantha.

And they took the child away. Then there`s the story she left her and went away for a month to either Tampa or elsewhere for a job search. But as far as police go, is she still sticking with that story?

NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Well, as far as police go, Nancy, she hasn`t said a word different, although we know that June 15th now was the last time that she was -- that Caylee was seen on video, and then the morning of June 16th.

Now, the Orange County sheriff, Kevin Berry, has made a specific request to Jose Baez, Casey`s attorney, to ask Casey where she last saw Caylee and when. And they got into a bit of a war of words over that one, to tell you the truth.

Attorney Jose Baez sent back a letter saying, well, nice of you to finally ask, basically, two months later. And it`s a shame. We had to find out about this question through the media, if you really want to talk to my client, you contact me.

GRACE: OK. Mark Williams, what she`s talking about is an exchange between Attorney Jose Baez, the defense attorney for Casey Anthony, and police, where Baez suddenly says, your request for my client`s help in finding my daughter is a day late and a dollar short, and why do I have to find out about this through the media?

Well, the media didn`t know about it until after Baez`s returned letter. So who is to say they didn`t leak it?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, that`s true. I mean, and this has become almost like a WWF smack down.

GRACE: Yes.

WILLIAMS: . between these two agencies, between Baez and Orange County Sheriff`s Office investigators. It`s going to be interesting to see where this thing really goes.

GRACE: You know, bottom line, doesn`t matter.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

GRACE: It`s not tit for tat. There are facts versus a letter.

WILLIAMS: That`s right.

GRACE: And the only arguing, seems to be, the defense attorney, Jose Baez, I don`t hear any argument from the police. I guess he`s arguing with himself.

To Natisha Lance, our producer standing by at the Anthony home, have the Anthonys responded in any way to all these text messages and investigative files that have been released?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: No, Nancy, they have not responded at all to any of these documents that have come out or any of these text messages, either.

GRACE: Let`s see some more of the text messages.

Back to the lawyers, Renee Rockwell, Anne Bremner. Rene, at a certain point, she is inviting people to a hot body contest, to ladies` night. We see her going out for manicures, pedicures. She`s on a roller coaster of men.

How will this play at trial?

ROCKWELL: Nancy, the way I see it now, you have sex, drugs, rock and roll, but no homicide, and that`s why you don`t have an indictment, because once an indictment is filed, it`s on.

And they`re going to file for a speedy trial, and they don`t have enough now. Once they do, you`ll see an indictment, Nancy.

GRACE: OK. Let`s go back to the original question, Anne Bremner. How will that behavioral evidence play at trial?

BREMNER: Well, if the prosecution can get it into evidence and have a judge say that it`s relevant, whether or not she killed her own child, I would argue as a defense attorney that it`s something that`s really not that relevant.

How does it really show, Nancy, I mean when we look at what the definition of relevant evidence here did she kill her child?.

GRACE: Hold on, hold on. Hold on. Let`s see, Anne Bremner. Anne, doesn`t the law state that a defendant`s behavior before, during and immediately.

BREMNER: Sure.

GRACE: . after the deed is relevant? Then what -- if you agree with that, then what are you talking about?

BREMNER: Because it`s not carte blanche, Nancy. It`s not any behavior. And in fact is that she happens to go out and get her nails done or have been socializing.

GRACE: While she`s looking for her daughter that`s missing?

BREMNER: Well, the fact of the matter is, we don`t know exactly when her child was missing.

GRACE: Well, we know that she.

BREMNER: We don`t know a lot in this case.

GRACE: . was last seen around the 16th after Father`s Day.

BREMNER: Sure.

GRACE: And so we do know that.

(CROSSTALK)

BREMNER: The thing is.

GRACE: So just give me the bottom line.

BREMNER: When you`re going to.

GRACE: Will it come into evidence, yes, no?

BREMNER: Part of it will. Part of it will complete a tapestry, Nancy, of a homicide. But you can`t go out and malign somebody just by virtue, boy, that`s she`s in a hot body contest, or she`s dating or sleeping around, or anything else.

GRACE: I don`t care about that.

BREMNER: That`s to prejudicial and doesn`t show that she killed her own child. That`s the question. That`s the question, Nancy, and you know.

GRACE: I don`t care about that, Renee, but it does show lack of remorse.

BREMNER: It depends on the judge.

GRACE: It shows she`s not out looking for the little girl. These text messages are.

BREMNER: That`s different.

GRACE: . feeding a case to the prosecution on a silver platter, Renee.

BREMNER: Yes and no.

ROCKWELL: Yes, Nancy, but we don`t know if she thought the baby was missing at that time.

GRACE: We know it was after the 16th, Renee. That`s when she was last seen.

ROCKWELL: I know that but we don`t know if she thought the baby was missing at that time.

GRACE: So bottom line, are you trying to argue it won`t come into evidence?

ROCKWELL: I`m saying, they`ll try to get it in, but a defense attorney will try to keep it out, saying it`s not probative, it`s prejudicial, and it`s not relevant.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The search continues for four missing children that police were taken by their own mother, who did not have custody. The four children who were all younger than 15, are said to be in extreme danger, and investigators are desperate to find them.

Authorities say 39-year-old Shirley Riggs took the children during an unsupervised overnight visit a few days ago and may be taking the children out of state, possibly to Oregon or Colorado.

Reports say this is the fourth time that Riggs has taken the children. Police say Riggs is traveling in a 1992 Dodge Caravan with Missouri license plates.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She panicked. She went to her lawyer the day before she left because she was afraid that she was going to lose them. She had been setting up this house all summer to give the children and it keeps getting delayed and delayed.

She won`t hurt the kids. My daughter is a wonderful person, a wonderful mom. Couldn`t be a better mom than my daughter. She loves her kids. She takes good care of them. She`ll do for them before she`ll do for herself.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Confusing. She loved them so much she didn`t have custody of them? To Aisha Sultan, home and family editor of the "St. Louis Post- Dispatch," what do we know, Aisha, as to why she didn`t have custody of the children to start with?

AISHA SULTAN, ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH, WWW.STL.COM/PARENTSTALKBACK: That it is the interesting question, because it seems as though the children have not been in her legal custody for some time. For some time, the paternal grandparents, it looks like, had temporary custody of these four children.

And then at some point, the state had custody of the children. And the reasons why are, you know, sealed in juvenile records. But that -- it does bring up that question as to why she hasn`t had custody of these children for a while.

GRACE: Weigh in, Marc Klaas.

MARC KLAAS, FOUNDER, BEYONDMISSING.COM, FATHER OF MURDER VICTIM POLLY KLAAS: Well, I think the point was made a couple of days ago that this woman, you could just tell by looking at her that she seems to have some instability problems.

Law enforcement has put out a notification that there seemed to have been a psychiatric test done on her, and that they had concerns about that. That`s why they put out the AMBER Alert in the first place.

But I would contend that two things have to happen here. She is, number one, demonstrated that she is not responsible for unsupervised visits. Therefore, she shouldn`t be allowed to have unsupervised visits.

And if the state cannot afford to supervise these visits, she should have all of her parental rights taken away. There`s nothing written in stone that says that since you`ve given birth to a child, that somehow you have a right to visit that child.

Her behavior and her husband`s behavior is immature. It`s irresponsible, it puts the children between them as pawns in this bitter battle that they seem to be waging. And I think probably the best thing that should happen, if and when these children are recovered, is that they should be removed from this woman, once and for all.

GRACE: Back to Aisha Sultan with "St. Louis Post-Dispatch," tell me the circumstances surrounding their kidnap.

SULTAN: She had an unsupervised visit with them on Friday and when she was supposed to return them on Saturday, she never showed up.

GRACE: And?

SULTAN: And so there is absolutely no indication about, you know, where those kids might be right now. I mean, there are reports that she might be taking them to Oregon, she might be taking them to Colorado.

But really, I mean, there`s severe concern as to what -- where these kids might be.

GRACE: I want to go out to expert, Dean Wideman, forensics expert. Is there any way, if the car were recovered empty that we could prove the children and the mother had been in the car?

DEAN WIDEMAN, FORENSICS EXPERT: Yes. I mean, you can look for trace evidence, like hair, skin cell DNA, you know, any biological material to link with DNA analysis.

GRACE: But if we`re trying to prove a case, everyone, Dean Wideman -- everyone, Dean Wideman, a forensics expert joining us tonight. Even if you found the children and the mom`s DNA in the car -- say the car is abandoned -- there`s no real way to date it.

That could have been left there back in the day when she had the children rightfully.

WIDEMAN: That`s correct. Right. You can`t age DNA. It could have been there from, yes, months or weeks or years before. That`s true.

GRACE: What else could we look for in that car to show they were all in there together, recently?

WIDEMAN: That`s a tough one, unless someone was injured recently, or there`s any kind of blood or what -- you know, some bodily fluid that.

GRACE: Yes. Yes.

WIDEMAN: You know, some body fluid that would tie them there, you know, to recent times.

GRACE: Or Ron Shindel, we could look for receipts from fast food where you see multiple orders. You could look for items belonging to them, possibly clothing items or toys they had with them around the time they disappeared?

SHINDEL: Nancy, exactly. I mean, this is a family of four children and a mother. They`re traveling any distance, they`re going to be stopping. They`re going to be hitting fast food outlets, they`re going to stopping to -- hit other retail places.

There may be receipts in there and it may lead them -- may give police a trail of where they`ve been and exactly which direction they`re heading.

GRACE: Caryn Stark, psychologist, we heard the grandmother saying she`s such a great mom. Maybe she was a great mom, but she lost custody and is now on the run. Police say the children are in danger.

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, and they`re saying that they`re in danger, to me, Nancy, means abuse or neglect. Something was really wrong or they would have let her have custody.

In addition, which four times, four times she ran away with these children.

GRACE: Tip line, 816-325-7258.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She panicked because the kids (INAUDIBLE), and she didn`t want to lose them and that`s why she -- I`m worried about it all. What will happen next.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Four children alleged to be in extreme danger. Their non- custodial mom -- translation, she did not have custody -- on the run with them.

Let`s see the map. To Aisha Sultan with the "St. Louis Post- Dispatch," why do police believe that she could be headed to Oregon, Colorado or New Mexico? And Oklahoma. Why?

SULTAN: Well, she`s believed to have, maybe perhaps, some relatives or friends, but in the past, when she did take the children once before, she did go to Oregon and was there for some time with the children.

GRACE: Where? What`s in Oregon that she goes to?

SULTAN: There are reports she had relatives there. And that`s why she was in Oregon.

GRACE: Ron Shindel, what do you advise at this juncture?

SHINDEL: At this point, what they want to do is they want to look from where she started and possibly head west. That`s what -- that`s where it leads to, is west. So you have 600 miles out to Denver. There`s a lot of area out there to look at it.

GRACE: Marc Klaas?

KLAAS: I mentioned this the other night. What you want to do is you want to do a routing distribution of AMBER Alerts. It`s already been mentioned that there may be fast food receipts in the car.

Well, if those fast food outlets already had a notification that this women was on the run, and she showed up at the window, there`s a very real chance that this could have ended.

Unfortunately, when the AMBER Alert was created in the beginning, they didn`t take these contingencies into account. And therefore we have a less imperfect system.

GRACE: You know, Marc Klaas, you`re exactly correct. That`s how little Shasta Groene was discovered after her horrible kidnap.

Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Staff Sergeant Jesse Ault, 28, Dublin, Virginia, killed, Iraq, on a second tour, reenlisted in place of his wife who was recalled to active duty all so she could stay behind with the children.

Loved University of West Virginia mountaineers, Denver Broncos, Atlanta Braves, fishing, golfing, sledding with his son. Leaves behind parents Ronald and Virginia, widow Betsy, two sons and a baby girl, best friend Travis.

Jesse Ault, American hero

Thanks to our guests, but especially to you. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.

END