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NANCY GRACE

Psychics Join Hunt for Missing Florida Toddler

Aired August 11, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for eight long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. As we go to air, what role does a local nightclub now play in the search for 3-year-old little Caylee? Cops there with questions. Mom, Casey, hits the law books while refusing to see her parents, turning down their jailhouse visits. High-tech air samples taken from mom, Casey`s, trunk and sent to a highly specialized forensic lab known as "the body farm." This while grandmother, Cindy Anthony, takes on the phone company, claiming the phone records are wrong.

A sworn search warrant reveals stunning information against mom, Casey. She tells police lie after lie, including her story the baby-sitter called mom, Casey, from a private number and put little Caylee on the phone. Phone records prove no such call ever took place. Psychics now in on the search for Caylee. And a milestone. After mom, Casey, says Caylee will be home for her 3rd birthday, that day comes and goes this past Saturday. Tonight, where is little Caylee Anthony?

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING CHILD`S MOTHER: There`s nothing to find out. There`s absolutely nothing to find out, and that`s even what I told the detectives.

LEE ANTHONY: Well, you know, everything that you`re telling them is a lie.

CASEY ANTHONY: I have no clue where Caylee is. If I knew where Caylee was, do you think any of this would be happening? No.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More developments emerge in the case of missing Florida toddler Caylee Anthony, who turned 3 years old on Saturday. For the second time since the search warrant was released, Casey Anthony refused to see family members, choosing instead to remain in her cell. Anthony`s parents, Cindy and George Anthony, had a scheduled visit but were sent home after being told that their daughter did not want to see them.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Despite their obvious hurt and confusion, George and Cindy are not dwelling on Casey`s brush-off. Instead, they`re turning their focus back to what`s been the focus all along, finding Caylee.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: They just want Caylee back. That`s all they`re worried about right now is getting Caylee back. And you know what? That`s all I care about right now.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Anthony`s attorney is still trying to get the 22-year-old tot mom out on bond, while everyone is anxiously awaiting the test results on the evidence found in Anthony`s car.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: George wouldn`t answer any questions about his daughter, who`s still in jail and still not cooperating, according to authorities.

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: I`m not going to answer that. See, again, you`re stretching it for me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Also breaking today, the owner of the nightclub where Anthony was known to visit frequently said police came by recently, asking questions about some of the other partygoers in the photos with Casey Anthony.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It has been one week since George and Cindy Anthony last spoke to their daughter, Casey. But while they were looking forward to their jailhouse visit tonight, it appears Casey was not.

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: I would like to see her, but you know, what am I going to say? If she wants to, you know, not see us, that`s her -- that`s her prerogative. She`s probably got her reasons.

GEORGE ANTHONY: You always want to see your child. I mean, it`s -- then again, she had her reasons, so...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Even the Anthonys could not explain why their daughter is slowly turning a cold shoulder on her family, first rejecting her brother, Lee, when he came for a visit Friday, then turning away her parents today, sending a message that needs no words, just an explanation.

CINDY ANTHONY: Maybe it`s based on me canceling my appointment with her the other day. So again, you know...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kind of tit for tat?

CINDY ANTHONY: Possibly.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: Casey.

CASEY ANTHONY: Mom.

CINDY ANTHONY: What?

CASEY ANTHONY: No!

CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t know what your involvement is, sweetheart. You`re not telling me where she`s at.

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I don`t (DELETED) know where she`s at. Are you kidding me?

CINDY ANTHONY: Casey, don`t waste your call to scream and holler at me.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: While the public anxiously awaits the results of DNA testing on tot mom, Casey Anthony`s, car, more revealing information comes to light in the case of missing 3-year-old Caylee. The owner of Fusian nightclub, where many of the Casey Anthony photos were taken, says police showed up asking questions about some of the people who were in photos with Anthony. Meanwhile, police again met with Caylee`s grandparents today and continue to investigate what happened to Caylee, who just turned 3 years old Saturday.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY: Did you speak with Caylee over the phone at any time?

CASEY ANTHONY: I did one time, yes, and that was actually the day that Mom had called the police.

LEE ANTHONY: OK. Do you remember what time you spoke to her?

CASEY ANTHONY: Around noon. It was through a private call.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That private phone call that was made in the middle of July, July 15 -- there`s no private phone call that came in.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Today Caylee`s grandmother disputed something in the investigators` search warrant affidavit about Casey`s phone records.

CINDY ANTHONY: That`s a misstatement.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s talking about where the affidavit says Casey`s cell phone records show no numbers belonging to a Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez and that there is no incoming call around noon on July 15, when Casey said she got a call from a private number and talked to Caylee briefly. Today, Cindy Anthony told us she believes Casey talked to Caylee that day.

CINDY ANTHONY: I believe my mother, too, also heard from Caylee during that time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And of course, a milestone, this Saturday little Caylee`s 3rd birthday. All along, mom, Casey, swearing Caylee would be home. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: You seem hopeful that Caylee will be home by her birthday on Saturday. Why?

CINDY ANTHONY: Well, I hope that`s the case. I mean, every day, I feel like we`re getting closer to locating where she`s at. It`s -- Casey`s maintained all along she doesn`t know where Caylee`s at. Casey`s maintained all along that she doesn`t trust the authorities. And you know, as much as I want to say I can`t blame her for certain things...

GRACE: Well, you know...

CINDY ANTHONY: ... that, you know, I`ve seen and heard over the last few weeks.

She might come home this afternoon. She may come home tomorrow. I hope she`s home by Saturday. If she`s not, you know what? I`m not giving up just because her birthday is Saturday.

GEORGE ANTHONY: She`s safe. I`m worried about the family. She knows who has her daughter. She knows her daughter is safe. You know, I`ve got to believe her that she knows everything is OK. And I mean, do I think she might have got involved in something? Possibility. I don`t know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: George Anthony asked his daughter point blank in jail Sunday, Where is Caylee?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Dad, she`s safe. I`m worried about the family. She knows who has her daughter. She knows her daughter`s safe. I got to believe her she knows everything is OK. And I mean, do I think she might have got involved in something? Possibility. I don`t know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Now from the jailhouse, mom, Casey saying her daughter is now in danger. Straight out to Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk. Mark, what`s the latest?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, the latest is the breaking news you just talked about just a couple of moments ago, Orange County sheriff`s investigators going to the Fusian nightclub recently and talking to some of the party patrons that were there on the 15th of July, where -- five days after -- or the 15th of June, when -- five days after Casey went -- or Caylee went missing and those naughty pictures were taken. She was bumping and grinding with all the party regulars there that night.

Investigators are leaving no stone unturned, Nancy, when they`re trying to find little Caylee. Of course, this was all confirmed by the club owner. They talked -- the investigators talked to everybody that was there that they could find. That`s the big thing.

The second thing, of course, is the visitation. It was a 9:00 o`clock PM visitation last night at the Orange County jail. Cynthia and George Anthony went to the jail. But what happened is, Casey refused to see her parents. This is not the first time she has done this. Late last week, Lee Anthony was refused to see -- Casey did not want to see her (SIC). And Lee Anthony has another visit tomorrow. The parents have a visit scheduled already for Thursday.

And of course, those pesky phone records. As you know, the search warrant said that Casey never received a phone call from a private source or from Zenaida Gonzalez whatsoever on July 15 at 12:00 noon. The phone records don`t lie. And as you know, the mother...

GRACE: Hold on. Let`s step back to the jailhouse visits.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

GRACE: Last Tuesday, grandmother, Cindy, Cindy Anthony, actually cancels her visit. And coincidentally, that is the day the formal charges came down. Then 8/8, Casey Anthony refuses to leave her cell to talk to her brother, Lee Anthony, after he comes all the way there. Now 8/10, Casey Anthony cancels visit from her parents. They get all the way to the jail, and she refuses to come out and see them, says she`s holed up, reading law books behind bars.

Now, I find that very, very interesting. Out to Brian Reich, deputy chief at the Bergen County sheriff`s office. I mean, Brian, you and I both know very, very well that inmates will do anything to break the monotony of being behind bars. Now, Casey Anthony is already not talking on the telephone. We know inmates will do anything, for instance, to get on the county bus to come to the courthouse for an arraignment or any court date, just to have their sack lunch and get out of the jail. Here she is refusing visits. What do you think?

BRIAN REICH, DEPUTY CHIEF, BERGEN COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Absolutely. Very, very strange. As you say, the inmates are going to try to do anything. It`s obvious to me that she does not want to talk about the incident. As we see in other conversations, her mother has been pressing her to come up with information. Her other family members have been pressing her. And she wants to avoid the subject. I think that she`s ducking the opportunity to speak with her family, knowing that those calls are monitored.

GRACE: Out to Nikki Pierce with WDBO. What do you make of the fact that the parents, the brother, they get all the way out to the jail and she decides she`s not coming down?

NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: Well, I think I`m just like everybody else in that I`m not entirely sure what to make of that. As you said, generally, inmates love to come down and break the monotony. As far as we know, no reason has been given to the jail officials why she`s not going to come out and speak to them. She just refuses to.

GRACE: Back to Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk. What more can you tell me about air samples, air samples being taken from inside the car trunk and sent to a specialized laboratory?

WILLIAMS: Well, they call it "the body farm." It`s a laboratory associated with the University of Tennessee. They have taken air samples out of the car, out of the area, where -- as you know, Nancy, where cadaver dogs hit. It`s kind of an artificial nose that they have. And they could come back positive. And they go through these artificial -- or these samples with the artificial nose. That artificial nose can spot decomposing bodies or body parts. And they are awaiting, of course, results on that, as well as the DNA results, which have not come back yet.

GRACE: Joining me right now is a highly renowned forensic scientist. Lawrence Kobilinsky joining us out of our New York studios. Dr. Koby, thank you for being with us. Koby, explain to me the artificial nose and how air samples can now be used as evidence.

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Sure, Nancy. Well, what happens when a body decomposes is that there is metabolism, a breakdown of existing substances -- fat, protein -- and many volatile substances are created. Putrecine (ph), cadaverine, methanol, carbon dioxide hydrogen sulfide, 450 different compounds have been found in a decomposing body. Well, all you need to do is sample the air. We have instrumental analysis, referred to as gas chromatography/mass spectometry (ph), as well as high performance liquid chromatography -- fancy names. But essentially, we can detect all of these components in the gas.

And there are libraries that are digitized in a reference library in the instrument, and these things can be identified. And so this is a reliable way of determining if there is decomposition. Bill Bess (ph) was responsible for creating "the body farm," and crime people, criminalists, go there to study these kinds of things. He`s probably got one of the few labs in the United States that does this kind of work. Normally, it`s done on fish and other decaying substances. The Department of Agriculture is interested in this kind of procedure. But on human decomposition, this is a rare kind of procedure, but it`s a valid one.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to the lines. Barbara in Florida. Hi, Barbara.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I have a question. I know that her car was found in an Amskot (ph) check-cashing location. I`m wondering if the police did any investigating to see if there were any transactions that happened at that location that may have involved her, that she didn`t want to do at her bank.

GRACE: Interesting question. Back to Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk. Mark, is it just a coincidence her car happened to run out of gas again at this Amskot?

WILLIAMS: That`s what police theorize right now because, as you know, she left her purse in the front seat, and it was towed away from there by police. Amskot, nine chances out of ten, was closed that day because they`re not open 24 hours. So I think she just found a very convenient place to park that day, Nancy.

GRACE: And when did you learn about the air samples being taken out of the trunk, Mark Williams, and sent to the "body farm" laboratory?

WILLIAMS: We just learned of that today, police kind of releasing that information to the media today, that this new technique was being used. And of course, not only do they take the air samples, but cadaver dogs hit there a couple of times and DNA samples have been taken out of there, as well.

GRACE: Back out to the lines. Ann in Florida. Hi, Ann.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I enjoy your show. I never miss it.

GRACE: Thank you, Ann. And thank you for calling in.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is this. If they keep digging up bamboo out of their back yard, like I keep hearing they do, why is it, if she`s smart enough -- the mother -- to go over there and get the gas cans out by breaking in, does she have to go next door to borrow a shovel?

GRACE: Ann in Florida, if I`m ever accused of a crime, I want you consulting on the case. Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, family law attorney, child advocate Susan Moss out of New York, Joe Episcopo, veteran lawyer joining out of the Florida jurisdiction, and Alex Sanchez, trial lawyer out of New York, as well. Sue Moss, weigh in.

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: She couldn`t afford gas, and apparently, she couldn`t afford a shovel, as well. You know, this is the type of person we`re dealing with. Obviously, she couldn`t afford a baby- sitter because then, you know, this would all be for moot. But what is so interesting about this case is that it all goes back to the first facts, which is Mom waited 31 days before her mother, the grandmother of Caylee, forced the issue by calling the police. If you lose your dog, you call the police in the first week.

GRACE: You know, I want to go back to Ann in Florida`s question. Joe Episcopo, I`m sure you and Sanchez, being defense attorneys, are going to have an answer to this. She can break the lock into the shed when she wants to steal the gas, but she can`t break in when she needs a shovel? Explain that to me, Alex.

ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, I think that caller makes a lot of sense because if she went and simply borrowed that shovel, that would seem to indicate she was not doing anything of a criminal nature. Maybe she had some innocent explanation for her behavior.

GRACE: Joe Episcopo?

JOE EPISCOPO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It`s circumstantial evidence that she buried a body, but it`s not good enough to convict her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey is isolating herself in jail. No calls for a week, and she`s canceling visits with her family. Investigators don`t know if it means she`s about to crack.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If she cared to talk with us and tell us what she knew, we`d certainly sit down and listen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey Anthony refused to meet with her parents last night. The 22-year-old`s being held at a south Florida jail on charges including child neglect in the disappearance of her daughter, Caylee. The 3-year-old hasn`t been seen since June 16. Searches for the girl have so far turned up nothing, and local affiliates report a psychic detective and her team are now blind-driving around central Florida in an attempt to find the little girl. Over the weekend here, the Anthony family marked Caylee`s 3rd birthday while friends and well wishers placed balloons, flowers and cards in front of the family`s home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: According to reports, mom, Casey Anthony, behind bars had said, had long said her daughter would be home for her 3rd birthday. That day comes and passes this Saturday. If you`re like me, I thought about that throughout the day on Saturday. Would little Caylee come home? We are taking your calls live.

Joining us right now is a very special guest, exclusive tonight, Gale St. John. She is the psychic team leader. She`s been dubbed "the body hunter," very well known in the arena of psychics, who has joined in the search for little Caylee. Ms. St. John, thanks for being with us.

GALE ST. JOHN, PSYCHIC TEAM LEADER, THE BODY HUNTER: Thank you. Hi.

GRACE: How did you become involved in the case?

ST. JOHN: Well, I`m sure it was kind of at first quite by accident. We have a lot of followers on our Web site who e-mail us and ask us to work on certain cases, and a lot of people kept e-mailing in about Caylee. And we began to work on the case. And then we were asked if we could -- by the locals, if we could come here and use our dogs and do some searches down here.

GRACE: What dogs are you using?

ST. JOHN: We have certified cadaver dogs.

GRACE: Excuse me?

ST. JOHN: We have certified cadaver dogs.

GRACE: And where did you get the cadaver dogs?

ST. JOHN: Well, my particular one was purchased out of Czechoslovakia, but was trained here in the States.

GRACE: And have you taken them out to look for Caylee yet?

ST. JOHN: Yes, our team members have been out with the dogs and we have been searching very specific areas.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: Everybody has positive thoughts that little girl`s going to come home. We can do a lot more positive than we can do negative, and right now, there`s a lot of negativity out there. And I`m getting tired and tired of having to justify things.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We got a small cake inside. We got a number 3 on it and we`re going to light it. It`s a tough day for us. If you guys have children or if you`re grandparents, you got to understand these days don`t come around often. When they do, they mean more to you than anything.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: With us tonight, Gale St. John. She is leading a team of psychics helping in the search for little Caylee. Gale, you told me that you have brought out cadaver dogs. Explain to me what, if anything, they have found.

ST. JOHN: At this point, we have not really come across anything that`s significant, where the dogs have indicated or showed interest. But we are checking out a lot of locations, not just locations of our own but locations that the local people here in Orlando have, you know, put out to us and we`ve, you know, agreed to search those, as well. We don`t want to leave any stone unturned.

GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Isaac in Tennessee. Hi, Isaac.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. If, for instance, the girl was really with, like, a biological grandmother, like the mother says -- like, I don`t know who she says she`s with -- but if that`s true and she turns up, like, within the next couple of weeks, A, will the mom still be in trouble for not telling the cops where she was? And will the person that she`s with be in trouble for not coming forth with her?

GRACE: We`ll answer your call when we get back, Isaac.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING 2-YEAR-OLD CAYLEE: I`d like to see her, but, you know, what am I going to say? If she wants to, you know, not see us, that`s her -- it`s her prerogative. She`s probably got her reasons.

GEORGE ANTHONY, GRANDFATHER: You always want to see your child. I mean, it`s -- then again, she had her reasons, so...

C. ANTHONY: Maybe it`s based on me canceling my appointment with her the other day. So, again, you know...

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Kind of tit for tat?

C. ANTHONY: Possibly. I mean, the same thing goes.

UNIDENTIFIED 911 OPERATOR: 911. What`s your emergency?

C. ANTHONY: I called a little bit ago. The deputy sheriff I found out my granddaughter has been taken. She has been missing for a month. Her mother finally admitted that she`s been missing.

UNIDENTIFIED 911 OPERATOR: OK. What is...

C. ANTHONY: Get someone here now.

UNIDENTIFIED 911 OPERATOR: OK. What is the address that you`re calling from.

C. ANTHONY: We`re talking about a 3-year-old little girl. My daughter finally admitted that the babysitter stole her. I need to find her.

UNIDENTIFIED 911 OPERATOR: Your daughter admitted that the baby is where?

C. ANTHONY: The babysitter took her a month ago that my daughter`s been looking for her. I told you my daughter was missing for a month. I just found her today but I can`t find my granddaughter. She just admitted to me that she`s been trying to find her herself.

There`s something wrong. I found daughter`s car today and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Developments coming fast and furious in the search for little Caylee. Number one, mom Casey Anthony turns down jail house visits from her mother, Cindy Anthony, and her brother, and her mother and father after they come all the way to the jail to see her.

She apparently is behind bars hitting the law books. A team of psychics now join in the search as we learn that air samples -- repeat, air samples -- were taken out of mom Casey`s car trunk and sent to a laboratory specializing in air sample analysis called the body farm.

We are taking your calls live. First let`s answer Isaac out of Tennessee. Let`s unleash the lawyers, Susan Moss, Joe Episcopo, Alex Sanchez. His question was twofold. Number one, if Caylee turns up, will Casey Anthony remain behind bars on the current charges? And number two, whomever she is with, will they be held liable?

Susan Moss?

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY & CHILD ADVOCATE: Yes and yes. She is going to be held and convicted of felony child endangerment and also of lying to the police.

But I`ve got to tell you something. Unfortunately, I don`t think this child is going to be found, because if the cadaver dogs sniff you out, there is no more reasonable doubt. And the fact that we`re taking the air and bringing it to the body farm, I think you`re going to find even more evidence.

GRACE: Episcopo?

JOE EPISCOPO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, I think the child neglect charges probably are going to stick and the false police report. That`s a total, I think, of six years.

GRACE: Yes.

EPISCOPO: She`s lucky if she gets away with just that.

GRACE: And Alex Sanchez, what about the person -- and I`m putting that in quotes -- that she is with?

ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, I think it`s unlikely that if this person was taking care of this child and was holding that child and was treating that child properly, I`m not sure that she`s going to be facing any charges at all. And even if there were some charges that she could possibly face, do the police really want to prosecute her? Wouldn`t they, at this point, want this case to just disappear?

GRACE: Interesting question about what is happening with the DNA? The DNA taken way back when out of Casey Anthony`s car trunk. Allegedly hair samples that, to the eye, match little Caylee, and a fluid believed to be some type of bodily fluid.

To Lawrence Kobilinsky, renowned forensic scientist -- Koby, you and I both know that DNA can come back as quickly as three days.

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: It can, except where the DNA is degraded. And if indeed this sample is decomposed biological tissue or fluid, you would expect the DNA to be degraded, in which case the criminalist will probably do a more advanced technology.

GRACE: Such as?

KOBILINSKY: What we call SNP technology, which can be used on highly degraded specimens. And there are other types of procedures that can be used. These mini STRs, for example. So it could take a little bit longer as far as the hair...

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, who. Mini STR?

KOBILINSKY: Yes.

GRACE: Explain.

KOBILINSKY: Yes. Well, in the World Trade Center, for example, many samples were compromised and highly degraded. And so what they needed to do was look at smaller fragments of DNA rather than the normal sized fragments of DNA. And so you need to use a different kind of procedure, much more sensitive to small fragments so...

GRACE: Now, Koby, correct me if I`m wrong, but when you have a degraded sample of DNA, you would -- say you have a regular size sample of degraded DNA. You would then take a smaller segment of that, which is the least degraded, and then compound it?

KOBILINSKY: Well, not exactly. By degraded, what we mean is that the -- the DNA fragments into smaller...

GRACE: Yes.

KOBILINSKY: ... and smaller pieces. Now it gets so small that the normal procedures fail. And so the mini STRs are a way of looking at the smaller samples and still generating data. But you still may get a partial profile, which is not enough information to declare a match. Therefore, you are going to have to use the SNP technology, which will provide better analysis...

GRACE: When you`re saying SNP technology, first of all, spell.

KOBILINSKY: Yes. It`s S-N-P. It stands for single nucleotide polymorphism analysis. We`re looking at very discreet sites within the human man genome and depending upon what we find, we can always -- always we`re comparing a questioned sample with a known sample...

GRACE: Yes.

KOBILINSKY: ... and so we can determine if there`s a match or exclusion.

GRACE: And we know we have a known sample because police have released the fact that they have Caylee`s DNA. So they have a good known sample most likely obtained from the home.

KOBILINSKY: Indeed.

GRACE: So, yes/no, Koby. I know that`s hard for a scientist of your stature. But yes/no, do you believe, by this time, we should have the DNA back?

KOBILINSKY: I think we probably should have it back.

GRACE: OK.

KOBILINSKY: It`s a forensics case. And these things sometimes take time but yes.

GRACE: Right. I think as a trial lawyer, I`m deciphering that that was a yes.

So let`s go to the lawyers, Sue Moss, Joe Episcopo, Alex Sanchez.

To you, Alex, what does it mean? And just try to give it to me in a nutshell. If the tests are back, why aren`t they releasing it?

SANCHEZ: Because I think the police at this point are engaging in a certain degree of gamesmanship. I think they have the result...

GRACE: Right. That`s the police.

SANCHEZ: ... but they do not...

GRACE: Always up to something sneaky.

SANCHEZ: No, not sneaky. They don`t want to release that information because if Caylee finds out that there are results that could possibly hurt her...

GRACE: Casey.

SANCHEZ: ... she`s not going to cooperate.

GRACE: And Sue Moss?

MOSS: I think the police already know. Last week, this investigation took a major turn. You started seeing divers in ponds. You started seeing more searches of the Anthony home. I think the police know more than they`re letting out.

GRACE: So are you saying that you believe the DNA results are back and that there were -- there was a bodily fluid in the trunk?

MOSS: I think that is correct and the bodily fluid is Caylee`s.

GRACE: Joe?

ESPICOPO: I don`t think they have any matches. I think that`s why they went back to the house Friday looking for more evidence. I say there is no match and the case is still being investigated.

GRACE: To Mark Williams at WNDB, is it true that there are reports the police now believe that if harm was done to Caylee Anthony, it was done on the 16th?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: That`s what it appears right now. Those are some stories being leaked by some of the media members. And one of the -- one of the possibilities is that she may have drowned in the pool and the momma, Casey, tried to call her parents several times -- and that`s all documented on her records -- and she couldn`t get a hold of them.

And of course, you know, the theory from that is, you know, she buried the child and then she put the child in the trunk for burial at a later point.

GRACE: But, Nikki Pierce with WDBO, cadaver dogs came and looked at the above ground pool and it was a negative.

NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: That`s true. It was negative for the smell of decomposition. But that wouldn`t necessarily mean that if there wasn`t an accident that happened there...

GRACE: Got you.

PIERCE: ... that they would hit on that.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

GRACE: Speaking of phone records, grandmother Cindy Anthony now takes on the phone company claiming that call from the nanny where the baby was put on the phone could very well have happened.

Brian Reich, the telephone company wrong? Did they leave off a call they could have charged us for?

BRIAN REICH, DEPUTY CHIEF, BERGEN COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: I highly doubt it. I mean, in law enforcement we rely on the integrity of the phone records. And, you know, they have very accurate databases and computer servers. So I highly doubt...

GRACE: Believe me, Mr. Reich, if they made a mistake -- the phone company -- it was adding in a couple of international calls. Believe me they did not delete a call that they could have charged by the minute. But mom Cindy Anthony is taking on the phone company saying, oh, yes, that call did come in from the nanny, along with Caylee on the phone.

Quick break, everybody. We are taking your calls live. And as we go to break, we ask for your thoughts and prayers to those fighting overseas. The temperatures in Iraq soaring to the 100s, as high as 122 degrees. They need your prayers for endurance, strength.

To our troops, Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine, Coast Guards, our thoughts are with you.

And tonight, we ask for your prayers for a veteran defense attorney Sandy Schiff in the fight of a lifetime. After battling leukemia in the hospital, today Sandy is having a critical bone marrow transplant to save her life.

Sandy, stay strong.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, BROTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: If you lost the physical phone itself, aside from searching for it, how would you -- how would you go about finding this? How should I go about finding your phone?

CAYLEE ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING 2-YEAR-OLD CAYLEE: I don`t know. That`s the thing. I mean it -- I knew specifically where it was. I mean my last recollection of me having it was at Universal. But I knew that I had also been at Jay Blanchard Park, and I could have potentially had it there with me, too.

I don`t know if you guys have checked through like some of the bags and stuff that I have at the house with if it was in one of those purses. But I knew I kept everything that I had kind of centralized at Tony`s.

L. ANTHONY: So on the Black Jack, do you remember the phone number that the Black Jack was associated with?

CASEY: It was my same number. I just swapped the SIM card back and forth.

L. ANTHONY: OK. Here`s the things -- how these things work, Casey.

CASEY: Yes.

L. ANTHONY: The contact information, the contact stuff is on your SIM card. So if you swap switch it back and forth...

CASEY: It doesn`t always save to the SIM card. You can sometimes save things to the SIM card or save it specifically to the phone. It just depends on the way the phone`s set up. I thought about that, too.

The phone that I was currently using where I guess that the police still have or you guys have it, I had set it up after the fact to just save things to my SIM card. But you can also save it to just the phone or to the SIM card and the phone so there`s copies on both.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: What? Where is the mysterious phone? Maybe it`s at Universal Studios. It could be at the Jay Blanchard Park. Wait, no, it`s in the bag at Tony`s house. No, no, no, no, no, it fell out of the bag. No, it fell out of her pocket. But maybe it was her purse. The mysterious phone.

The tot mom`s inconsistencies phone records reveal she never received a phone call from the babysitter. The search warrant reveals no phone number belonging to Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez on tot mom`s cell phone. It goes on and on and on. But nevertheless, grandmother Cindy Anthony is taking on the phone company saying they`re the ones that are mistaken.

We are taking your calls live. I want to go quickly back out to the lines to Patty in Wisconsin. Hi, Patty.

PATTY, WISCONSIN RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. How you doing?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

PATTY: Just kind of -- just to get your take on this, I was raised by a fireman. We had lots of cops and firemen in our family. Even if they`re retired, they`re still cops and firemen. It`s in their blood.

The mom said something that I thought was very interesting the other day. She said please leave her husband alone, she -- she doesn`t want to lose her husband. And I wonder, he hasn`t been really -- you know really forthcoming in anything. You know he`s been very quiet. And he had that kind of burst of emotion the other day.

And I was wondering if maybe the cop in him is really starting to question things and -- because her -- Casey and her mother, to me, in my opinion, have kind of the same behavior. And what I`m wondering if that`s kind of...

GRACE: Well, you know, I noticed, Patty in Wisconsin, that the only one that was making any real sense was the grandfather. And you`re right. Once you`re a cop or a fireperson or a prosecutor, it`s in your blood. It`s hard to get that out. You can`t just wash that out.

Let`s go out to Dr. Lisa Boesky, psychologist and author.

Dr. Lisa, thank you for being with us. What do you make of it? The other day George Anthony, the grandfather, had a little bit of an outburst. I don`t really blame him. This is around the time of Caylee`s 3rd birthday -- what would have been her 3rd birthday. What do you make of it?

LISA BOESKY, PSYCHOLOGIST, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO WORRY": I thought it was fabulous. That`s the first normal thing I`ve seen in this family. I think the hysterical phone call of the grandmother and this outburst was the first time we saw real true emotion that real people would be going through if their daughter was in jail and their granddaughter was missing.

I think it`s all catching up to him. And I think we need to see more of that. Otherwise, we should be very suspicious.

GRACE: And what do you make of Casey Anthony turning down her own family that have traveled all the way to the jail to see her, not once but now three times? And the brother, Lee Anthony, set to visit tomorrow.

BOESKY: I think two things are going on. I think, number one, she is stonewalling. The investigators have been meeting with her family. They have more information. They have more questions. She doesn`t want to answer those.

But I think, number two, I think she wants to stick it to them a little. She could have let them know, I`m not going to be taking your visits anymore. But I think she let them come down there and let them expect it because I`m not sure she`s so happy about what they`re saying to the media.

They`re really driving this case and the media and I bet she wants them to stay shut up and stay home.

GRACE: Joining us tonight is Gale St. John, psychic, team leader for the Body Hunter searching for Caylee Anthony. She says locals have called her down to help her -- to help look for the little girl.

Miss St. John, what clues have you relied on so far in your search?

GALE ST. JOHN, PSYCHIC, TEAM LEADER, THE BODY HUNTER: Well, I mean, we`ve pretty much been following the media things as well. But, I mean, we`ve come up with some -- our own things as well. Being, you know, from a psychic group, yes, we`ve seen visions. We`ve seen things and we`re...

GRACE: Like what?

ST. JOHN: Well, you know, I can`t be real specific. I don`t want to give areas away. But I can tell you one thing that we`re...

GRACE: What do you mean? What`s there to give away? If Caylee Anthony is dead, I mean, what can you tell me? She`s buried, she`s in water, she`s been put in the trash dump, she`s been cremated? What are you going to give away?

ST. JOHN: Well, our site is public. Anybody can access and see what we`ve said.

GRACE: Well, can you answer me?

ST. JOHN: Yes. The -- flowers is one thing that we`ve seen like it looked like -- appeared to be wildflowers, a grassy area. There`s also a wooded area that was seen in the background.

GRACE: A what?

ST. JOHN: A wooded area, so we`re concerned with that, looking for that. And find the very specific things that we saw so the area fits and we`ve been taking the dogs in, of course, all areas. Like I said, we`re not going to leave any stone unturned, whether we feel it`s there or it matches what we`ve seen, we`re going to make sure we take the dogs in all areas.

GRACE: And what do you say to those that are nonbelievers?

ST. JOHN: Well, I mean, certainly everybody has a right to their own opinion and it`s fine, but, you know, I`m the mother of four children and I have two grandchildren. I would use any tool I could to find my missing children or grandchildren.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Welcome back. We are taking your calls live. Out to Kate in Pennsylvania, hi, Kate.

KATE, PENNSYLVANIA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. My husband and I love you, love your show.

GRACE: Thank you very much and thank you for calling. What`s your question, dear?

KATE: I`m wondering, as we`re watching this play out in this cat and mouse game Casey seems to be playing behind bars, I agree with your one expert. It seems like these are all stall tactics. And I can`t help but wonder if she`s not doing this, knowing full well that if and when this poor little baby`s body would be found that the evidence to determine cause of death would be so degraded or nearly impossible to determine.

I can`t help but think of the Shandra Levy case. You can`t determine death -- the cause of death after a certain period.

GRACE: Kate in Pennsylvania, you`re absolutely correct.

Back to Dr. Lisa Boesky, psychologist and author -- Dr. Lisa, you know, I notice that when they told cops she still worked at Universal, she went all the way to the University, went to the guard stand, got out of the car, walked all the way into the hall, and then says, you know what? I don`t work here anymore, I was fired. She`ll take it all the way until the bitter end.

Is that what she`s doing now?

BOESKY: That`s exactly what it appears she`s doing now. This is not uncommon among people who are what we call anti social especially if they`re what we call narcissistic, which means they will go on and on and on and take it to the very end.

It`s just like a 2-year-old who spills something, and you say, who spilled that? I didn`t do it. And you can show them all the evidence in the world, but in their mind, they think they can fool everyone.

And I think right now she thinks she`s going to win and in the end she won`t.

GRACE: We`ll see what happens tomorrow. Brother Lee Anthony set for a jailhouse visit. So far, Casey Anthony turning away her own family. Why?

Let`s stop and remember Army Private First Class Andrew Habsieger, 22, Festus, Missouri, killed, Iraq. Devoted to family, friends, country, gave 110 percent to everything he did. Said to become a godfather when he lost his life, with a smile that lit up a room. Loved football, animals, leaves behind parents Michael and Brenda, brother Jacob, also serving the army.

Andrew Habsieger, American hero.

Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp, Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.

END