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NANCY GRACE

Mother Named Person of Interest in Kidnapping of Two California Girls

Aired July 8, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Two little girls 8 and 12 years old vanish from their own home in a quiet, upscale and close-knit California suburb. In the last hours, we learn that one little girl 8 years old has just been found alone, abandoned in a public parking lot nearly 1,500 miles away. As we all know, minutes count when children go missing. Why only one little girl recovered? Tonight, where is 12-year- old Estephane?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An 8-year-old girl missing from her San Dimas foster home since Monday has been found in Oklahoma, but the 12-year-old foster girl she was with and that girl`s biological mom still missing. Police first thought both girls left in their foster parents` car but now believe 12-year-old Estephane Flores drove the car to her mom`s home. Then her mom, Iris Zavala, and an unidentified man took off with the girls and headed east, police naming Zavala a person of interest. Eight-year-old Robin Lemus told police she was left in the car and told to stay put, but no one returned for her. She was found with her foster parents` Lexus at a McDonald`s.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Tonight: Is a deadly predator stalking a highly popular jogging trail, just waiting for women, all apparently in their mid 20s, to happen by, jogging, walking their dogs, unsuspecting, from sex assault to murder, four women that we know of, the last two in broad daylight? The last victim lives to tell the tale. Florida police hit a dead end, still searching for clues.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police are investigating the attack of a 25-year- old woman who was walking with her dog Monday night. Investigators say a man jumped out of the bushes and tried to drag her in before she was able to pull herself free. The suspect then chased the woman almost 600 yards to an apartment complex before giving up. Police have now released a sketch of the suspect and are asking for the public`s help in locating this attacker. Police are also looking into whether this attack is linked to any other recent attacks in the area, including the abduction and murder of Nicole Ganguzza, whose body was found just miles from where this new attack took place.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for two little girls who vanish from their own California home.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Take a close look at 12-year-old Estephane Flores and 8-year-old Robin Lemus. LA County sheriff`s deputies were called just before 7:00 AM to the home the girls shared with their foster parents in San Dimas. The girls and the family`s 1998 Lexus ES-300 were nowhere in sight. Sheriff`s deputies say despite the Lexus being equipped with a Lojack anti-theft device, they haven`t been able to track down the car but believe the girls are somewhere outside the Los Angeles area.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve been calling her, but her phone is off. I left her some messages on her phones and told her to call the police (INAUDIBLE) Thursday, she sent me a text message saying Estephane was crying because the foster mom was being mean to her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Why only one little girl recovered? And why was she left alone in a public parking lot? As we all know, in the case of children gone missing, minutes, hours count.

Out to Jo Kwon, producer with KNX. Jo, what`s the latest?

JO KWON, KNX RADIO: The latest is they found the 8-year-old out in Miami, Oklahoma, which is about 1,500 miles away from San Dimas. So basically, it would take you 24 hours, and they left supposedly early morning, Monday morning. They found her in the foster parents` Lexus in a McDonald`s parking lot, where it was 95 degrees. The windows were rolled up. And she was there by herself.

GRACE: You know, let me get something straight, Jo Kwon. It`s my understanding that the girls left around midnight or went missing from the foster home around midnight. How did that happen? Why weren`t the foster parents watching them?

KWON: You know, all I can say is they`re two little girls. They probably snuck out the front door. And what happened, a neighbor said they went into the family`s Lexus and they went through the rear passenger, then they were in the car for about 15 to 20 minutes, just sitting there. And the neighbor said he saw the 12-year-old -- or he thought it looked like an adult. I mean, it was midnight. It was dark, probably couldn`t tell. Started the car. And he went back inside. And I assume from there, they took off and...

GRACE: So he didn`t have a problem with two little children in the car.

To Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. Mike, I`ve got a problem. Do we believe that the non-custodial parent, the mother, is possibly a person of interest in this case, the mother of the 12-year-old?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: We sure do, Nancy. I mean, that`s -- you`ve got a 12-year-old -- they said -- the foster parent said, Oh, well this 12-year-old, she knows how to drive. Well, where`d she learn how to drive?

GRACE: Knows how to drive?

BROOKS: Yes.

GRACE: How did they know? Have they been letting the girl drive?

BROOKS: They must have. That`s the only way that they would know that, oh, the 12-year-old, yeah, she can drive. But if that`s the case, Nancy -- first of all, the neighbor should have let somebody know, should have called police. That`s secondary. But if this 12-year-old -- how far did she drive? She didn`t drive over 1,000 miles to Oklahoma. I don`t think so, Nancy. And the mother must be involved in this somehow. And they did recover the Lexus. That Lexus, as we know, had a Lojack device, a tracking device inside of it. That`s where they located that in the McDonald`s parking lot with the 8-year-old.

GRACE: Is that how they found it, from the Lojack?

BROOKS: That`s -- we`re not -- they haven`t said exactly how, but they said that they were tracking it, they tracked the car to Oklahoma. So that`s what I`m assuming, that they did probably use that Lojack tracking device to track it there.

GRACE: Well, if they could track you on a Lojack, Mike Brooks, then why did it take them so long to find the two little girls?

BROOKS: I`m very surprised, Nancy, because most of the area from California to Oklahoma, there are towers with Lojack tracking devices on that because the way Lojack works, Nancy, real quickly -- if you report a car stolen or missing, they punch in your identification number, and then it comes up, and then they activate the Lojack system and it sends the signal from that car through the towers, just like -- similar to cell communications -- to police cars that have the tracking locators within their car. If you see a police car riding around with four antennas on the roof, that`s a Lojack tracking car.

GRACE: Well, good to know. But in this case, the children have been gone 24 hours. You know what? What good is a Lojack if it`s not going to work? Or is it not the problem with the Lojack, but the problem, Marc Klaas with Beyondmissing.com, that the children were not reported missing for so long?

MARC KLAAS, BEYONDMISSING.COM: Well, that`s true, the children weren`t reported missing for a long time. But Mike is very correct. I mean, you know, Lojack is all about being able to immediately activate the system and locate the car, and that certainly didn`t happen in this case.

And I would further suggest that the young girl that has been recovered probably wasn`t part of the escape plan to begin with, and that was probably something that might have been concocted between the two children themselves. Otherwise, I don`t see why she would have been left in such a grave circumstance.

GRACE: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Before we get too far down this path, let`s just make it clear. It is not the fault of the 8-year-old and the 12-year-old.

Back to Jo Kwon with KNX. How long had the children, the two little girls, been gone before the foster parents decided to report them missing?

KWON: They had been gone just a couple hours in the morning, about eight hours. They woke up at about 7:00...

GRACE: Eight hours? They were gone eight hours?

KWON: 7:00 AM is when they decided to report them.

GRACE: OK. That`s longer than a couple hours. A couple hours -- two hours.

Marc Klaas, eight hours, children gone, eight hours. An 8-year-old little girl sitting alone in a public parking lot for hours on end? Does anybody remember what happened to Adam Walsh? He was alone for one minute and he was killed.

KLAAS: Well, it`s a mile a minute. That`s how fast your kids can disappear. And you multiply that times -- 8 times 60, and you find yourself in a situation where these children are able to be kidnapped or taken, I should say, many hundreds of miles away. It`s a true failure of the neighbor, the family, and I would dare to say perhaps law enforcement themselves.

GRACE: And another thing, Marc Klaas, who would leave a child alone in a parking lot, an 8-year-old little girl?

KLAAS: Well, that`s very troubling. I mean, that`s very troubling. Obviously, nobody considered that little girl`s wellbeing at all.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Albert in Kentucky. Hi, Albert.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. I`m very concerned about the 12-year-old little girl.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So am I. My question is, along with the foster mother being a person of interest, do we know if the foster father has anything to say? Because it`s my understanding that she said that the kids knew how to drive.

GRACE: OK. I`m sorry. I couldn`t hear you. The kids knew how to do what?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I might have misunderstood, but was it said that the foster mother said that the children knew how to drive?

GRACE: The foster parents do say the 12-year-old little girl can drive. How do they know that? I don`t know, but it can`t be good. As far as a person of interest, the biological mother of the 12-year-old is a person of interest at this juncture.

I want to go back out to Jo Kwon. All right, the two little girls missing eight hours before they`re reported missing. Was there an Amber Alert?

KWON: They did issue an Amber Alert for -- but they couldn`t -- it`s not quite your typical Amber Alert because they weren`t sure if it was a kidnapping, an abducting. And right now, it is an Amber Alert because they are -- the 12-year-old is still missing with her mother, and you know, the situation was a little different.

GRACE: So is that a yes or a no?

KWON: Yes.

GRACE: Is there an Amber Alert?

KWON: Yes.

GRACE: When was it issued?

KWON: The Amber Alert was issued, I believe, after this morning.

GRACE: OK. After this morning. Marc Klaas, what do we know about when the Amber Alert was issued?

KLAAS: Well, the Amber Alert is supposed to be issued almost immediately upon the discovery that something untoward has happened. And certainly, we knew something untoward had happened in this case as soon as it was realized that the girls had driven off. They`re foster children. They`ve lived in very difficult circumstances, obviously, for quite some time. So again, you know, this is a situation where the Amber Alert has been transmortified (SIC) into something that it was never intended to be.

GRACE: Back to Jo Kwon with KNX. Jo, what can you tell me about the 8-year-old making a phone call and stating to her bio father that she was not getting -- she was sent to bed without food in the foster home?

KWON: That`s right. The 8-year-old was text messaging her biological father, saying that she wasn`t getting dinner, she was scared, and she was saying the other girl, Estephane, the 12-year-old, was crying. And you know, from what the 8-year-old was saying, it wasn`t a situation where they would want to stay.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Marley in Oklahoma. Hi, Marley.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Most of my questions have been asked, so what I was wondering, just knowing what little I know about, you know, the child welfare system, were these visitations not being monitored? How were they getting such free communication with their families?

GRACE: Excellent question. This is a non-custodial parent. Back out to Jo Kwon. Was there no monitoring? How was the little 12-year-old able to get in touch with this biological mom to basically arrange a kidnapping, according to police?

KWON: Basically, from what it sounds like, the 8-year-old actually had a cell phone. And so what happened was, I believe the 12-year-old was using the 8-year-old`s cell phone and calling her mom, and they arranged this whole situation, if you want to call it that.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She is a person of interest right now. This, at this point, didn`t rise to the level of an Amber Alert. But it does rise to the level of putting out a request for anybody who sees this vehicle or the girls to call right away.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve been calling her, but her phone is off. I left her some messages on her phones, told her to call the police (INAUDIBLE) Thursday, she sent me a text message saying that Estephane was crying because the foster mom was being mean to her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Back to Marc Klaas with Beyondmissing.com. I just wanted to check our sources. There is no Amber Alert, Marc Klaas. There`s no Amber Alert.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: That`s incorrect information. There was a state and county alert. Could you please explain what is an Amber Alert and why we`ve got an 8-year-old and a 12-year-old gone missing at midnight, police did not issue an Amber Alert?

KLAAS: Well, an Amber Alert is very simple. And Amber Alert is issued when a child of a certain age, or I should say a child, has been kidnapped generally in front of witnesses and it`s believed that that child`s life is in danger. Law enforcement then is obligated to immediately notify the media so that the media can notify the public.

I think one of the things that we really need to know about, though, is why exactly are these two girls in foster care in the first place. What circumstance was it that separated them from their family? That might have something to do with what`s going on here.

GRACE: I`m going to get to Jo Kwon on that. But very quickly, Marc Klaas, the difference between a county and state alert and an Amber Alert?

KLAAS: Well, I don`t know what a county or a state alert is. I do know what an Amber Alert is, but I also know that there are certain disappearances that do not meet the threshold of Amber Alert, the strict threshold of Amber Alert. But still, you have to notify the media so the media can notify the public. It`s when law enforcement has to use their instinct and they have to use their judgment and they have to throw caution to the wind. And apparently, at some point down the line, they decided that this was one of those cases that met that criteria and that`s why they issued whatever kind of an alert it was that they finally issued.

GRACE: Marc, do Amber Alerts cross state boundaries?

KLAAS: Well, it should. I mean, and that`s another problem with the Amber Alert. The way it`s been created, an Amber Alert can only cross state boundaries if the Amber Alert coordinator in the neighboring state or states agrees that it meets their criteria for an Amber Alert. It`s a system that was put together very, very poorly because it should be...

GRACE: Agree.

KLAAS: ... a geographic-based system. It shouldn`t be a state-based system.

GRACE: To Jo Kwon with KNX. What do we know about why the little girls were taken from their biological parents?

KWON: Well, as far as the 12-year-old -- I don`t know much about the 8-year-old`s history, but the 12-year-old -- apparently, the lieutenant told me that there were some allegations of sexual abuse with her mother`s ex-boyfriend, lover, I`m not sure. Not her father.

GRACE: Dear Lord in heaven, because, Jo Kwon, isn`t it correct that we believe there is a male with the 12-year-old and her mother?

KWON: That is absolutely correct. The lieutenants say it`s an 18- year-old adult male, or around that age. They`re not sure who he is. But yes, you`re absolutely right, there is a male with them.

GRACE: So the 12-year-old may have been taken from the home because of sex abuse allegations, and now we believe the mother has a 12-year-old and a man in the car.

KWON: That is absolutely correct.

GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Dustin in South Carolina. Hi, Dustin.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. My question kind of just goes on what you were just talking about. Have they questioned any other family members, uncles, ex-boyfriends of any of these, like, the biological mother, anybody like that? Have they gotten to question anybody like that?

GRACE: What do we know, Mike Brooks?

BROOKS: ... really know. You know, right now, there`s not a whole lot. You know, and this whole thing, it`s really troubling to me, Nancy, that, you know, the law enforcement, they didn`t put out an Amber Alert. But what they did probably put out was an attempt to locate, which can be put in the National Crime Information System, which will go state to state. As Marc was saying, some Amber Alerts, if the coordinators decide that they`re -- don`t meet the criteria, it might not go state to state. But we don`t know a lot about the woman -- we know about the mother. We don`t know a lot about this guy who may be with her. And now what we`ve heard from Jo Kwon, that`s really troubling to me.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Randi Karmel out of New York, Ray Giudice, defense attorney out of Atlanta, Michael Mazzariello out of New York, as well.

Ray Giudice, if the mother is involved, the biological mother, who has lost custody, what`s she looking at?

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, she`s looking at kidnapping, endangering a child, both to her own child but especially to the 8-year-old child that she has no argument or claim of right to, Nancy.

GRACE: What about it, Michael?

MICHAEL MAZZARIELLO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I agree with him. And I think that it would actually extend to her own child, since that child was in foster care. Must have been ordered by a court somewhere.

GRACE: Randi, weigh in.

RANDI KARMEL, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: I agree. However, in California, there is an exception, which is to protect a child under 14 years old, and that is an exception to the kidnapping statute in California.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lemus, the father of the younger girl, arrived at the San Dimas sheriff`s station this afternoon not long after deputies searched his home in Glendale (ph), believing Robin was there. Lemus says he hasn`t made contact with his daughter today, but says last week, she sent him a number of text messages. Although the message was disturbing, Lemus says Robin did not say she was unhappy or wanted to leave the home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Tonight still missing, a 12-year-old little girl.

Out to the lines. Martha in Illinois. Hi, Martha.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. The twins are beautiful.

GRACE: Thank you. And you know what? Just hearing this story, I`m just on edge, imagining one of them alone in a public parking lot for all that time. Leaving a child alone? I mean, doesn`t anybody read the newspaper? Don`t they watch TV?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know. I guess not. I`m the same way. But my little girl at Wal-Mart, she does not leave my sight.

GRACE: Good. Good. What`s your question, love?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, the question I had has already been answered. So I was wondering will the DCFS place the 8-year-old child with another family because of allegations of neglect, not feeding her?

GRACE: Interesting. What about that? Straight out to you, Randi Karmel.

KARMEL: These parents, these foster parents, obviously didn`t do what they were supposed to do, which is to protect this child. So without a doubt, this home is no longer going to be a foster home for either child or any child.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Eight-year-old Robin Lemus told police she was left in the car and told to stay put, but no one returned for her. She was found with her foster parents` Lexus at a McDonald`s.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She is a person of interest right now. This, at this point, didn`t rise to the level of an Amber Alert, but it does rise to the level of putting out a request for anybody who sees this vehicle or the girls to call right away.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Amazingly, an Amber Alert was not issued. Apparently, the children were not deemed to be in imminent danger. Incredible!

We are taking your calls. Out to Diane in West Virginia. Hi, Diane.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I just love you, and your passion for the victims is just -- it`s a real inspiration.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And as a mother of five, I can`t imagine this. My question is, was the 8-year-old finally able to get out on her own and seek help? And what was her physical condition? And was she able to give them any information of use?

GRACE: Good question. Jo Kwon with KNX, what was her condition? Was she still just sitting in the car? How was she actually found?

KWON: The investigators couldn`t give specifics on it, but they had what they called leads. They found the 8-year-old in a car in 95-degree weather in a McDonald`s parking lot. The windows were rolled up. They said she was overheated, probably dehydrated, but she was -- she was fine now.

GRACE: Everybody, when we come back: Is a deadly predator stalking a highly popular jogging trail, just waiting for women, all apparently in their mid 20s, to happen along, from sex assault to murder? The last victim lives to tell the tale.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Authorities have released a sketch of the suspect who they say ambushed a Florida woman last night.

The woman told police she was out walking her dog when a man came out from behind the bushes and tried to assault her. Police say the 25-year- old victim was able to break free but not before the suspect ripped the woman`s shirt practically off her body.

The attacker turned and left after the victim ran to a local apartment complex to seek help. Police say this attack happened not far from where 26-year-old jogger Nicole Ganguzza was abducted and murdered and are investigating any possible link to that slaying.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Is a predator scoping out a highly popular jogging trail? As of right now, we know of four women possibly linked to the same attacker from sex assault to murder. Apparently women in their mid-20`s happening along, walking their dogs, going for jogs, walking when this happens.

Straight out to Rory O`Neill with Metro Networks. Tell me the latest.

RORY O`NEILL, REPORTER, METRO NETWORKS: Well, good evening, Nancy.

This latest attack took place on Monday night. A woman was walking her dog and suddenly attacked from behind and out of complete surprise, of course. She did manage to escape, ran over 500 yards to get to an apartment complex.

She was fine. She did not have to go to the hospital. But she was able to provide a very detailed description to authorities who are tonight passing out pamphlets with that person`s face on it.

GRACE: OK, Rory O`Neill, let me get a few more facts. Number one, what`s the age of this victim?

O`NEILL: This latest victim is 25 years old. The other victims also all in their mid-20`s. And she actually is a deaf woman. So this was a particularly harrowing experience for her, no doubt.

GRACE: And she managed to run -- did you say 500 yards?

O`NEILL: About 500 yards to the nearest apartment complex.

This attack, by the way, took place along a very busy road. It`s a four-lane road, lots of traffic both directions. And it was about 6:30 at night, so plenty of daylight. Police say somebody must have seen something. So they`re really desperate to try to get the word out. And now that they have this description.

GRACE: Well, the woman herself, for Pete`s sake. She ran from him for 500 yard. That`s five football fields.

Now, I want to find out more about the attacks. How far away is this attack from the last attack?

O`NEILL: Well, the last attack took place in June. And unfortunately, that ended in the death of Nicole Ganguzza. And that was about five miles from the location of this attack and about.

GRACE: And how long is the jogging trail?

O`NEILL: I couldn`t tell you the exact distance of the trail. This - - the attack from Monday was just on a sidewalk. This jogging path.

GRACE: Right.

O`NEILL: . that the other victim from last month it`s -- it runs -- the track runs for miles.

GRACE: And, Rory, let me ask you, the last victim, Ganguzza, what time of the day was her attack?

O`NEILL: That was also in the early evening -- between 6:00 and 8:00, in that time frame.

GRACE: Huh! You know to you, Mike.

O`NEILL: She had gone out -- she was a regular jogger.

GRACE: To Mike Brooks, what do you think?

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: I tell you what, Nancy, I look back -- I did a little research and looked back on -- back in 2006 when there had been a number of assaults and rapes along this same area.

And they have two other composites, two other composite photos. And, you know, one of them looks a little bit like the one we got from this last victim. So they need to go back now and take a look.

And my question also, Nancy, from the murder victim, were they able to get any forensics from that, any DNA, maybe in exchange? And were they able to get -- this woman, were she able to claw this guy, get anything under her fingernails, any trace evidence that may be in exchange?

That was going to be very important, the possibly the forensics in both of these cases to try to link all of these cases together.

GRACE: Out to Danette Edimivich(ph), demonstration expert. Danette, weigh in.

Yes, I`m here.

I think I`ve got Danette with me. Hold on. Let me know when I`m hooked up with Danette.

I want to go out to the lines, Eileen in North Carolina. What`s your question, dear?

EILEEN, NORTH CAROLINA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. And once again, God bless you for what you do.

GRACE: Thank you.

EILEEN: I want to know, really, the extent of her injuries. And will she be able to remember the extent of the details of the perpetrator and the attack and how much is she going to really be able to help?

And, also, how many victims were there really prior to her in this area?

GRACE: We know of four, Eileen in North Carolina.

Out to Leslie Austin -- Dr. Leslie Austin, psychotherapist -- how good do you believe her recollection will be in light of the fact that this was especially harrowing to her?

She managed to outrun the guy, Leslie, 500 yards. He actually came upon her and tore her shirt off and she managed to get away and keep running until she got to an apartment complex.

DR. LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Right.

GRACE: And only then -- this guy was determined, Leslie -- only then did this predator back off. He`s like a coyote. He`s like a wolf. When you finally get to civilization, when you finally get out of the rural setting she was in -- I know it was near a roadway. But she got around other people is that finally when he backed off.

AUSTIN: I am inclined to think she`ll remember some of the details because it`s very impressive that she had the presence of mind to thwart him the way she did and take care of herself.

So it`s likely police talked to her right away, debriefed her and got the details. And I`m sure she`ll remember other little things in the next day or so. But I think she had enough presence of mind to remember as much as anyone can while their defending their lives and in panic.

GRACE: To Philip Messina, he is the president of Modern Warriors Defense Tactics Institute.

Philip, it`s great to see you and Danette again. How do you protect yourself if someone is trying to, for instance, abduct you from an open area?

PHILIP MESSINA, MODERNWARRIOR.COM, MODERN WARRIORS DEFENSE TACTICS INSTITUTE: OK. Well, there`s three ways a person will try to move you. And the most common is a head lock, which actually happened once with this suspect. The second would be a choke and then a lifting technique.

So, for example, if I were going to try to abduct Danette in a head lock, what she wants to do is don`t break away from me but to actually run into me and concentrate her energy on my leg. What this does, it stops me from moving her.

GRACE: OK.

MESSINA: And it allows her to follow up.

GRACE: You know, Philip, you know, I would have done the exact opposite. I would have tried to break backwards away if I were in a head lock. I understand what you`re saying.

OK, tell me some more.

MESSINA: Well, this is the concept if somebody wants to have a tug of war, you run in rather than try to have a tug-of-war with them.

OK. Basically what you want to do also is you want to concentrate on three abilities -- vision, wind and limbs. The ability to see, the ability to breathe, and the ability to move around and entrap you.

Abduction is a complex crime. If you break any one of those abilities, if you neutralize those abilities, the crime can`t be committed.

GRACE: And you`re going to tell me how to neutralize them?

MESSINA: Yes, I will. Let`s say, for example, we have a cell phone with you.

GRACE: OK.

MESSINA: A very quick way she could go to vision, wind and limbs is she might actually -- if I go to grab her, she might take the lid of the cell phone, jam it into the throat, then close it, jam the antenna into my eye, bringing my hands up, and then attack a leg.

Once again, she goes low. She aims for the ankle, not the groin. And then she follows up on her technique.

GRACE: And that would be attacking the vision, one of the three things that you mentioned.

With us, Philip Messina, the president of Modern Warriors Defense Tactics Institute. He`s got more to show us.

Out to the lines, Melissa in California, hi, Melissa.

MELISSA, CALIFORNIA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy Grace. Congratulations on your babies. I have four of my own. They`re wonderful.

GRACE: Oh, man, I don`t know how you do it with four.

OK, what`s your question, dear?

MELISSA: My question was, how open was the area she was jogging in and was it daylight that he was so comfortable in trying to attack a person like that?

GRACE: You know, that`s incredible. It was broad daylight.

To Rory O`Neill, how open was the area?

O`NEILL: Well, it -- as you said, it was about 6:30, so there was plenty of light and right along really -- I can`t stress enough how busy this road is. It is a stretch particularly that did have some wooded areas.

GRACE: So open?

O`NEILL: . to it but it is -- it is very open and anyone could be seen.

GRACE: To Dr. Bruce Levy, medical examiner joining us out of Nashville, Tennessee -- Dr. Levy, thank you for being with us. And I want to talk to you about the -- not only this victim but the earlier murder victim that could be connected to this attack.

What forensics do you think we could get?

BRUCE LEVY, TENNESSEE STATE MEDICAL EXAMINER: Probably from our most recent victim, probably very little. It sounds like he may have grabbed for her and she broke away quickly. The odds of actually transferring significant DNA that can be found and measured is very, very small.

Now, the murder victim is a much, much different story, especially once we know what the method of the murder was. But assuming it was, again, a physical altercation, there`s a great likelihood.

GRACE: Well, if it was similar to this, Dr. Levy, I can guarantee you it`s probably a manual or ligature strangulation.

LEVY: Right. Yes, I would agree with you, that`s the most likely scenario here. So there`s a very high likelihood of a struggle. And probably it`s not material under the fingernails like people believe, but it`s actually blood from the assailant if she scratched him and some of his blood got on her or her clothing, we then have a DNA profile for him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was 6:30, rush hour traffic on the Goldenrod. Again, it`s an opportunity. He looks for these people walking, females walking alone, and he`s targeting those.

Someone had to see something. Maybe didn`t realize what they were seeing but hopefully, you know, they take a look at this composite and something will spark off and they can call us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Detectives say the suspect jumped from behind bushes and tried to rape a 25-year-old woman. She was walking her dog in the area of Goldenrod and Toledo Street after 7:00 last night.

Last night`s attack is the fourth attack on the East Side in the last year and a half and last night`s attack happened about eight miles from where Nicole Ganguzza was killed on June 10th of this year.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: That is about one month apart when she lost her life and now this.

We are taking your calls live. To Phyllis in Florida, hi, Phyllis.

PHYLLIS, FLORIDA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

PHYLLIS: I have a two-part question.

GRACE: OK.

PHYLLIS: Did they find her torn shirt? And where he was waiting behind the bushes, did they try tracking dogs?

GRACE: Excellent question.

Rory O`Neill, what do we know?

O`NEILL: I don`t know for sure about the shirt. But I would assume since it was a relatively small area that would be there. But, yes, they did have tracking dogs. They had the bloodhounds out and the helicopters up just a short time after this crime was reported, so they were on it very, very quickly.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers, Raymond Giudice out of Atlanta, Michael Mazzariello out of New York.

Michael, if this guy is linked up to not only this attempted rape but a murder, he`s looking at the Florida death penalty. The only thing he can be happy about is they no longer employ Old Sparky, the electric chair in Florida.

MICHAEL MAZZARIELLO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, HOST OF "CLOSING ARGUMENTS": I would have to agree with that 100 percent. Now the police have to do their job, show the composites to the prior victims, and hope there`s some kind of forensics and trace evidence to tie him to that murder.

GRACE: Raymond Giudice, take a look at this composite. Basically, all we know is this victim believes it is an Hispanic male. Now, according to Mike Brooks, some of the composites with the other four -- with the other victims look a little bit alike.

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes.

GRACE: These composite drawings and the eyewitness identification will be attacked.

GIUDICE: Of course.

GRACE: . under enormous attack at trial. How?

GIUDICE: Of course. Well, look, I mean, we`d all like to believe that eyewitness identification works, but it doesn`t. Almost all these folks.

GRACE: Says you.

GIUDICE: Almost all the folks that Barry Scheck gets out of prison for life sentences on DNA -- on the DNA project were convicted by eyewitness identification.

MAZZARIELLO: It`s true.

GIUDICE: And 20 years later when the DNA technology catches up to it, we`re letting these guys go left and right because it`s the wrong person.

GRACE: No, no, no. It`s not left and right. All right?

GIUDICE: There`s over 200 in the last couple of years, Nancy.

GRACE: No, it`s not over 200 in the last couple of years. If you have firm statistics and numbers, I`d be happy to hear them but.

GIUDICE: I`ll get them out to you.

GRACE: You do that. But the reality -- the crux of what you`re saying is, in fact, true. It will be under attack.

GIUDICE: That`s right.

GRACE: DNA is the way to go if you`ve got it.

GIUDICE: That`s right.

GRACE: But Michael Mazzariello, more cases are reliable with eyewitness ID than unreliable.

MAZZARIELLO: Well, one witness identification cases, Nancy, are extremely difficult cases, depending on the time and place of occurrence and the circumstances of the crime.

GRACE: Really?

MAZZARIELLO: Yes.

GRACE: Hold on, I want to see Mazzariello`s face because -- you know, Michael, I`ve never had a problem with cases based on eyewitness identification. Have you?

MAZZARIELLO: I have had quite a few problems with one.

GRACE: Really? As a defense lawyer?

MAZZARIELLO: One witness identification, just as Ray has said, has been adjudicated, Barry Scheck is doing a great job.

GRACE: But that`s not what I asked you.

MAZZARIELLO: No, but, Nancy, the crux.

GRACE: I appreciate that. No, I`m asking you what was your problem with eyewitness I.D.?

MAZZARIELLO: My problem is that when people swear that`s the person that did it, that`s the person.

GRACE: No, Michael, maybe I`m not being clear. Let me rephrase my question.

What was your specific problem with eyewitness identification?

MAZZARIELLO: It could be false, Nancy. It could be unreliable.

GRACE: Oh, no. Oh, OK. We`re crossing wires because I`m talking about can you name one case where you`ve had a problem with eyewitness I.D., a case that you tried?

MAZZARIELLO: Yes, yes, Nancy.

GRACE: What?

MAZZARIELLO: I did a rape case where a woman swore it was my client over and over and over and over in court, at the pretrial hearings.

GRACE: Yes?

MAZZARIELLO: And then when the DNA came in, it wasn`t my client. She was so positive.

GRACE: All right. That is a legitimate concern.

MAZZARIELLO: She was so positive, Nancy, it was him. He`s the guy that raped me for 12 hours and the DNA came back. It wasn`t him.

GIUDICE: Nancy, in fact, right now there are so many studies that challenge the veracity of one single witness, that it is legal malpractice and ineffective assistance of counsel if, on a defense side, you do not enter those studies into evidence.

MAZZARIELLO: Absolutely.

GRACE: Let me go back to Michael Mazzariello. I appreciate your example, and it`s a travesty of justice, if he had been convicted. Of course, obviously, the system worked and he was not convicted.

MAZZARIELLO: Right.

GRACE: Now, about how many cases have you tried, Michael?

MAZZARIELLO: With a jury?

GRACE: Period, bench trials and juries, quickly.

MAZZARIELLO: Hundreds, hundreds.

GRACE: And you`ve had one problem? OK. Good to know.

Back out to the lines. To Annette in Connecticut, hi, Annette.

ANNETTE, CONNECTICUT RESIDENT: Hi, how are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

ANNETTE: First time I`ve gotten through in about four months and your beautiful children -- oh just beautiful. My question is why do all these women go out, you know, by themselves? I mean, it seems so stupid.

GRACE: Oh Annette.

ANNETTE: . especially in these days when there are so many of them out there, you know, attacking people? You know, young and old people alike. I don`t go walking alone. I live in a good area.

GRACE: Annette, you know, I agree with you. I -- you`re preaching to the choir, Annette. But do you know the other day I went out jogging by myself trying to get rid of the baby weight. It was broad daylight. But it was broad daylight when this woman went, too.

I mean, Mike Brooks, what should we do, all wear a burqa and hide under the bed?

BROOKS: I tell you what, Nancy, this woman had a dog. A lot of people think, if I get a dog I`m fine. Look at this case and look at this case we just had here in Georgia where the woman went hiking in the North Georgia Mountains with a dog and she wound up dead also and her dog abandoned.

You know it`s just a false sense of security. If you`re going to out, go out with someone else and if possible, take a defense class from -- like from the expert we`ve had on our show.

GRACE: To Dr. Leslie Austin, psychotherapist, joining us in New York -- Dr. Austin, in a nutshell, I mean, I of all people having prosecuted cases, I preach it to women all of the time, don`t go out jogging, don`t do this -- I even do it. I mean, nobody wants to live hiding behind a closed door.

AUSTIN: But.

GRACE: It`s not our fault that we go jogging.

AUSTIN: Well, nobody wants to live in fear all their lives, but you can also be prudent and be careful and be alert and take some protective measures, but you have to find a good balance between living your life and being alert and aware and being prudent and say.

GRACE: To Holly in Indiana, Holly, what`s your question?

HOLLY, INDIANA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. Your babies are adorable.

GRACE: Thank you.

HOLLY: My question is I wanted to know if any of the women had anything specifically in common. I mean, hair color, if they worked in the same place.

GRACE: Good question.

Rory O`Neill, besides being in their 20`s, what are the similarities?

O`NEILL: Really just this jogging routine. Some of them were caught also at different times of the day and really there`s nothing else comes to mind immediately.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Suspect`s around 5`10``, described as Hispanic male, a couple of victims put him a little stockier than a skinnier build. So, again, you know, we have victims in fear for their life. People see different things when they`re nervous and scared.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Is a stalker, a predator, scoping out a jogging trail area?

Out to Dr. Bruce Levy, medical examiner, can the murder victim`s autopsy shed light on the current attacker, Doctor?

LEVY: It might. Really the way you`re going do that is either through linking them through DNA or other trace evidence or by finding similarities between the two attacks.

I mean, obviously, we have one dead victim and one living one, but there may be enough similarities to draw a connection between them.

GRACE: And very quickly, Rory O`Neill, what do police believe at this juncture?

O`NEILL: Well, they are really trying to figure out whether or not we`re talking about one attacker who`s been nicknamed the "East Side rapist" or perhaps if other people are involved. They don`t want to close all their options of investigation by going after just one person if, perhaps, we`re looking at four different attackers in this case.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember, Army Sergeant Blake Evans, 24, Rockford, Illinois, killed, Iraq. On a second tour, awarded the Bronze Star, Purple Heart, loved making people smile, dreamed of being a cop. Leaves behind parents Judy and Kenneth, stepdad Craig, brother, Scott, widow, Shannon, daughters Adriana and Kylee.

Blake Evans, American hero.

Thanks to our guests, and especially to you for being with us, and tonight a special good night from Georgia, friends of the show, Sherry, Tracy, Wiley and Karen.

They are camera ready.

And tonight, a happy birthday to veteran defense attorney and dad of the two M`s, Michael Mazziarello.

Everyone, keep your fingers crossed tonight for our executive producer. He is not with us tonight. He`s with his wife Karen and they are this close to welcoming our newest little crime fighter into the world.

I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.

END