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NANCY GRACE

Georgia Classroom Teacher-Student Brawl Caught on Tape

Aired May 30, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight: A vicious beating cheered on by an angry, blood-thirsty crowd. No one, not one person lifts a finger to help. In fact, one of the crowd actually videotapes the attack for fun. It`s all caught on video. Gang violence? Nope. Street crime? Nope. It all went down in an established (ph) Stone Mountain high school. In one corner, a substitute high school teacher. In the other corner, a 16-year-old girl student doing in-school suspension. The video straight to YouTube showing the teacher being beaten about the head and face as the students cheer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A female teacher and a student comes to blows as the school year ends at a Georgia high school, the fight recorded on a cell phone camera. Authorities say the two started having problems as the day began and it obviously deteriorated. According to the incident report, the substitute teacher said she heard the student say she was going to pull the teacher`s wig off. Then they came to blows.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whether or not what we see her is (INAUDIBLE) defending herself is in question, as is who started the fight. But the incident report states that it was the substitute teacher, who kicked the student in the leg as she was heading out the door, and that starts the brawl. The incident report also indicates both teacher and student walked away with scratches on their faces.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight: He`s charged with killing his wife and their 9- month-old baby girl, murdered by gunfire as they slept in their upscale New England home, then flying across the ocean to Great Britain to hide out in Mommy and Daddy`s house. Now stunning allegations prime suspect Neil Entwistle went trolling on line for prostitutes and to on-line adult "friend finder (ph)" immediately after the brutal murder of his wife and daughter. To top it all off, police now uncover private handwritten notes where Entwistle schemed to make a profit selling a tell-all story about the brutal murders of his wife and 9-month-old baby girl.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Neil Entwistle was looking for sex before, during and after the murders of his wife, Rachel, and his 9-month-old daughter, Lillian Rose. These deeply disturbing allegations made by prosecutors, prosecutors who also allege after fleeing to England, Entwistle trolled Web sites looking for escorts. Even when he was arrested, Entwistle had an advertisement for escort services on him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The police claim Entwistle had been scouring Web sites for information in the days before the murders. On an Internet search engine, he entered the words "suicide," "euthanasia" and specifically how to kill someone with a knife. And they say they have evidence he`d been trolling adult Web sites, escort agencies, looking for different sexual partners through the Net.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Scandal sheets are calling Neil a "porn scamster," playing up the porn pyramid scheme Neil reportedly ran promising to make investors into millionaires.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators claim to have uncovered evidence which damns him and shatters the image of a happy family. They say Entwistle searched the Internet for information on how to kill people, and he was crippled by debt.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, a vicious attack on a Stone Mountain school teacher, a crowd cheering it on, all caught on video. It heads straight to YouTube, of course. And no, it`s not street violence. It`s not a gang attack. It`s right there in the classroom of the local high school.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s a student and a teacher punching it out on the last day of school. This is in Stone Mountain, Georgia. Apparently, the whole thing started when the student allegedly said she was going to pull the teacher`s wig off. Instead, the 53-year-old teacher, who you would think knew better, took the wig off herself and told the student she would protect herself if she messed with her. The fight recorded on a cell phone camera. Authorities say the two started having problems as the day began, and it got worse, obviously. According to the incident report, the substitute teacher said she heard the student saying that she was going to pull the teacher`s wig off. Then they apparently came to blows. The report says when it was over, both had scratches on their faces. And police are checking the video to determine who started this fight. Right now, both are charged with disorderly conduct.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That`s what`s going on in our public high schools. That`s what we`ve caught, anyway, on video. What else is happening?

Straight out to Eric Jens with WLBB Newsradio. Eric, what happened?

ERIC JENS, WLBB NEWSRADIO: Well, thank you, Nancy. Basically, thanks to YouTube and a cell phone video, we can now all watch this vicious attack that occurred at a high school just outside of Atlanta, Georgia, here. And basically, it was the end of the school year, last day of class. And as the student and teacher are leaving the classroom, they`ve each got some parting shots for each other, and it just escalates from there.

They`re both charged with disorderly conduct, but really, that`s just because neither one of them landed a blow to warrant more serious charges.

GRACE: Well, it seems to me -- you`re saying thanks to cell phone video -- I think it`s all about the video. I think if you look at this very carefully, the whole thing starts, and immediately, at the inception, Eric Jens, it`s being caught on a student`s cell phone video. I think the teacher was set up.

JENS: There`s a lot of finger pointing that can go in both directions in a case like this. And as you said, with the video that we can all take a look at, we can decide who`s the primary aggressor. Unfortunately, the video does not tell us exactly how it got started, and there`s some discrepancy there.

GRACE: Well, let`s take it from the top, Elizabeth. Now, it`s my understanding that the teacher is wearing the white blouse. Yes, no, Eric Jens.

JENS: Yes, that is correct. And as we`ve witnessed, at a couple of points, it does appear as if she has the opportunity to back away from the fight, but neither one of these combatants is interested in backing away.

GRACE: OK, right there. That`s the beginning. And we need to cue it back a little bit more, Elizabeth, because you see the student at the very beginning going after -- there you go -- going after the teacher. And there`s even more, if you back it up, where you see the teacher backing off.

Out to the lines. Levi in Tennessee. Hi, Levi.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, Nancy. How`re you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, Nancy, we see it`s a pattern in these cases where the teachers are blamed for the students` bad behavior. Do you think this teacher will be blamed? Will we see her blamed (INAUDIBLE)

GRACE: Well, apparently -- apparently, she`s already being blamed. We are taking your calls live. This is exactly what`s going on in public classrooms in our country. This is a well-respected, Stone Mountain high school.

Back to Eric Jens, WLBB Newsradio. I know the police report says that this teacher started it, but who are the witnesses, the other kids in suspension along with their classmate?

JENS: We have a situation here where each of these two parties involved in the fight have been getting on each other`s nerves all day long. And whoever started it, started it probably small and it quickly escalated.

GRACE: Out to Holly Hughes, prosecutor in the Atlanta jurisdiction. What about it, Holly?

HOLLY HUGHES, PROSECUTOR: Nancy, I got to tell you, I usually agree with you on things, but I think the teacher is in the wrong here. I think she had every opportunity to defuse the situation. This is a 53-year-old woman. The appropriate response is not to get into a physical altercation with a teenager. She could have walked out of that room...

GRACE: Really, Holly, when a student comes at you and starts pummeling you, you`re supposed to defuse the situation? How do you do that, lay down...

HUGHES: Nancy...

GRACE: ... and let them just roll over on you?

HUGHES: Nancy, no. It started earlier in the day, when the teacher said, Oh, I overheard her say to another student she`s going to rip my wig off. At that point, if she really felt threatened by that student, she should have gone to the principal, said, I want her taken out of the class, she`s threatening me. Instead, she throws down the gauntlet by taking the wig off herself and then telling the student, Hey, by the way, if you mess with me, I`m going to defend myself. So she throws the gauntlet down way before this even happened. And the police report says she threw the first kick. So in this particular instance, I think when you`re 53 years old and you`re an experienced teacher, you should knew before it gets to this point that you need to do something, not violence.

GRACE: OK. So Holly, your answer is for the teacher to run out of the classroom. Don`t think it`s going to happen.

Pat Brown, criminal profiler and author -- Pat, don`t you think it`s a little too convenient that the student had the cell phone trained on the teacher when the attack starts?

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, it didn`t start with -- they didn`t start -- we don`t see the fight starting on that video. We see it right after it started. So I think, actually, they might have thrown it open.

But I want to say I worked as a substitute teacher some 30 years ago. I was brought to the classroom and I was told, You`re in the classroom that`s the worst in the school. If anybody starts threatening you, you feel in danger, come out screaming into the hallway.

This is -- I was 24 years old, and this is the kind of class they put me into. There was no real support. This is just the teacher next door. No support, nobody went in there and made sure those kids behaved properly.

So this woman -- she`s in a situation where she`s supposed to defuse things all day long? Where was the respect for this teacher, who is supposed to be the authority figure in that classroom?

GRACE: I want to go to Marietta English. She is the president of the Baltimore teachers union. Marietta, I find it difficult to believe that anybody wants a teacher to just leave a classroom unattended.

MARIETTA ENGLISH, PRES., BALTIMORE TEACHERS UNION: You know, I`m so - - I was so upset hearing that. This is what happens all the time. The teacher is always the one that is blamed for what the -- the behavior of these students. I see this every single day. These kids are out of control. They think that they can do anything and -- anything to a teacher and the teacher is not supposed to strike back. And as soon as a teacher strikes back, then they`re accused of being brutal, child abuse, and it`s their fault.

It is time that teachers do stand up and take these matters into their own hands. This is ridiculous. These are children. They`re not knowing - - they don`t know how to behave, and when you try to get them to behave, then they`re out there videoing what they`re doing to you.

GRACE: Well, I find it just too coincidental that when the fight starts, the girl`s friends already have the cell phone ready for this to go onto YouTube. I don`t think that`s just a coincidence.

Out to the lines. Nicole in Illinois. Hi, Nicole.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. This teacher should lose her license. I would like (INAUDIBLE) any other disciplinary action taken on her license in the past.

GRACE: Excellent question. What do we know about it, Eric Jens? Has she had a problem in the past?

JENS: We have no significant record of that. She is a substitute teacher, and the school board is taking a look at the situation. They`re reviewing the video, interviewing the student witnesses, perhaps, and they`re going to have a finding once this is all settled.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Jan in Nevada. Hi, Jan.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, you hear them yelling for security. How come it`s taking security so long to get there?

GRACE: I don`t know that anybody ever actually called security. The friends are saying, Security, security, the friends of the student, but nobody ever goes. I mean, take a look. There are students standing in the window, but nobody is going to get security. What about it, Eric Jens?

JENS: Well, that`s another disturbing aspect to this whole case. This fight goes on for perhaps over a minute, and it probably would have continued to go on if the school resource officer and some other school personnel hadn`t stopped in and broke it up because there appeared to be no letting up for either one of them.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Nicole in -- oh, excuse me. Kelly in Ohio. Hi, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How`re you doing, Nancy?

GRACE: I`m good. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was just wondering why you think that she was framed, exactly?

GRACE: Well, my thinking -- and let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, in addition to prosecutor Holly Hughes, Eric Chase, defense attorney out of LA, and Penny Douglas-Furr, trial lawyer out of Atlanta. Penny, you don`t find it unusual that the very beginning, one of the student`s friends has her cell phone video poised on the teacher?

PENNY DOUGLAS-FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I find that very suspicious, Nancy. But with these kids, they always have their cell phone. They always have their video ready to go. I don`t see a 15 or 16-year-old...

GRACE: I don`t know that that`s true.

DOUGLAS-FURR: ... that doesn`t have that.

GRACE: No, no. They may all have cell phones, Penny, but to have the cell phone turned on to video and have it like that, so you catch the very first moment?

DOUGLAS-FURR: Have you seen...

GRACE: I say the teacher was framed.

DOUGLAS-FURR: Have you seen a 15 or 16-year-old and how fast they can get to that video? I think it`s a problem, and I question that, also. However, I see this teacher also acting very aggressively. Both their behaviors are horrific. The only thing I say with the teacher is, she`s an adult. She should be defusing the situation, not escalating it. So my problem with the teacher is not defending herself but continuing to fight.

GRACE: You know what, Penny? If you had a student of that age in her suspension class -- which already raises a red flag to me, that the student is on suspension -- coming at you at 3:30 in the afternoon, the last day of school, grabbing you by the head -- how do you suggest she defuse the situation?

DOUGLAS-FURR: I would take off. I would not stay and keep hitting back and make it worse. I would get out the door, in the hall and to the principal as quickly as possible.

GRACE: What about it, Eric Chase?

ERIC CHASE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, in this case, I agree with you. The incident report does not say that the teacher kicked the student first. The incident report says that the student says the teacher kicked her in the leg first. So are we expected to believe that the teacher kicks her in the leg and she responds with a fury with fists to the face automatically? I agree with you, Nancy. This looks like a set-up to me. And also...

GRACE: OK, that alone, that you`re agreeing with me, is very, very scary. But go ahead.

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: I`m rethinking my position now.

CHASE: It is different, Nancy. But also, if you look in the back there, the student standing in the door looks like they`re holding a video camera, too. There may be another tape we haven`t seen yet.

GRACE: Very good point That`s what I thought I could make out there in that very, very well-lit door, framed with the sun behind them.

Back out to the lines. Toni in New York. Hi, Toni.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Love your show. Thank you for doing it. Your twins are beautiful.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question, how old is the girl, and why was she in suspension to begin with?

GRACE: I believe she is 16 years old. She`s in the 10th grade. Eric Jens, why was she in suspension?

JENS: We don`t know that exactly. It was just her and a group of other students that had caused some kind of a disturbance.

GRACE: Let`s just say it can`t be good.

JENS: Right.

GRACE: Would you agree with that much, Eric Jens?

JENS: Nine chances out of ten or better, yes.

GRACE: I mean, you don`t get suspension for making all A`s and going home and doing charity work, OK?

JENS: Right. She wasn`t going to be doing any summer school work that was going to be something you`d want to put on a resume, in all likelihood.

GRACE: I guess not. Out to the lines. Wanda in Florida. Hi, Wanda.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. My question is, do you really think that it was framed?

GRACE: Well, the fact that they had the -- the girl`s friends had a cell phone poised -- the teacher and the girl had been snipping at each other the entire day. It had been a long day. And it seems to me because they had the video, the cell phone ready, that they had planned this. I mean, I could be wrong, but I find that very unusual.

What about it, Holly?

HUGHES: Nancy, I don`t think it`s unusual at all. And we did not see the beginning of the fight.

GRACE: Oh, you walk around...

HUGHES: We see -- but...

GRACE: ... with your cell phone turned on video, just waiting for a fight to break out? I don`t.

HUGHES: No, I don`t, but I`m not 16 years old and in high school and looking to click a picture of the good-looking guy down the hall.

GRACE: Nobody walks around with their cell phone on video.

HUGHES: Nancy, yes, they do. These kids always have these phones out. They`re texting. They`re doing things during class. She had that phone in her hand. As soon as that fight started -- we missed the very, very beginning of the fight. She flips it open immediately. It`s one button. You can click it right on. I don`t think it`s a set-up. I think it`s somebody who realized what was happening, Let me get it on there, yes, probably so they could put it on YouTube, not so they could go to the cops and say, Hey, let me be a great witness. They want to get out there and make a name for themselves...

GRACE: OK, what about it...

HUGHES: ... with this video.

GRACE: ... Lillian Glass?

LILLIAN GLASS, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, Nancy, I do agree with you completely. And I`ll tell you what`s very unusual when you look at this. The girl is pummeling the teacher in the head. So there is something about the wig and the head, because all of the blows are at the teacher`s head. So what you`re saying is very right on.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is at a school in Stone Mountain, Georgia. This isn`t two kids. See those haymakers they`re throwing? That`s a student and a teacher. Let`s listen. Wow! Play by play, you hear the slapping, the punching going on.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A cell phone camera captured this action last Friday, when a student and substitute teacher started brawling at the end of the school day, on the last day of school. According to an incident report, the two had been having conflicts all day. The teacher says she overheard the student saying she was going to pull (INAUDIBLE) wig off. The 53-year-old says she took the wig off herself and told the student that she would have to protect herself if the student messed with her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Was the teacher set up, or was the student telling the truth? This is what`s going on in our public schools. This is a highly respected high school in Stone Mountain.

Out to the lines. Mary in Virginia. Hi, Mary.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How`re you doing?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As a teacher, I want to know why so many people are hard on this substitute teacher, because you know, students are bold now. They will get in your face and really get you.

GRACE: I know, but what`s in it for this teacher, Mary in Virginia, to start a fight on the last day of school with a student? You know, I don`t get it.

I want to go to Jodee Blanco, school violence expert and author. What do you make of it?

JODEE BLANCO, SCHOOL VIOLENCE EXPERT: I think this teacher may have been trying to defend herself initially, but by the end, it appeared as if she was just giving in to her rage. And the sad thing, Nancy, is that I know kids are watching this and laughing, just like the kids who shot this footage were. It`s tough enough for teachers to get respect in the classroom as it is, and events like this almost encourage students that it`s OK to act out.

GRACE: Agree, Lillian?

GLASS: Well, I`ll tell you, it`s -- you know, there`s no winner here. I mean, everybody...

GRACE: I mean, psychologically, Lillian...

GLASS: ... is in trouble.

GRACE: ... when you don`t know who to believe, when you`ve got a credibility contest...

GLASS: Well, I think...

GRACE: ... you look at who`s got a dog in the fight. Who`s got the most to lose?

GLASS: Exactly.

GRACE: Who is lying? What does this teacher gain?

GLASS: Nothing.

GRACE: She`s going to possibly lose a job.

GLASS: Nothing.

GRACE: And what does the student have to gain? Her friends sticking this on YouTube and everybody thinking she`s a champion.

GLASS: No, you`re absolutely right. And when you look at the blows that are being given to the teacher, that says it all. It`s to her head. So in essence, she was set up. She was -- it was about the wig, the hair, the head. And that`s the...

GRACE: I think if that is true, Lillian -- if that is true, what you said, then it`s about humiliating a teacher.

GLASS: Yes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities say the two started having problems as the day began, and it obviously deteriorated. According to the incident report, the substitute teacher said she heard the student say she was going to pull the teacher`s wig off. Then they came to blows.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whether or not what we see here is (INAUDIBLE) is defending herself is in question, as is who started the fight. But the incident report states that it was the substitute teacher who kicked the student in the leg as she was heading out the door, and that starts the brawl. The incident report also indicates both teacher and student walked away with scratches on their faces.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Very quickly, Eric Jens with WLBB Newsradio. What are the consequences? When you`re trying to determine credibility, you look who`s got the most to lose. Quickly, what happened to the student because of this?

JENS: Essentially, nothing has happened at this point...

GRACE: OK.

JENS: ... other than there are disorderly conduct charges filed against each of them.

GRACE: And what`s going to happen to the substitute teacher? Is she going to lose her job or lose her license?

JENS: This is all yet to be determined. The school officials are involved in the investigation and taking a look at that. That`s...

GRACE: To Marietta English, the president of the Baltimore teachers union. What typically happens to a teacher that has a physical altercation in a classroom?

ENGLISH: They`re removed from the classroom. They`re sent to central office, where they have to work until there`s an investigation.

GRACE: So it`s like a cop. It`s like a cop being taken off the streets and put behind a desk.

ENGLISH: Right.

GRACE: So there you see who`s got the most to lose here, when you`re trying to determine who is telling the truth.

Daisy in New York. Hi, Daisy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, doesn`t the teacher have the right to protect herself? I mean, that girl was really big, and if she had came at me, I would have did more than what that teacher did.

GRACE: You know what, Daisy? I agree with you, you have the right to protect yourself. And I have a hard time believing that this teacher, out of the blue after the whole day, suddenly hauls off and kicks a girl as she`s leaving the classroom. I just don`t see it. I`m very anxious to see if this teacher is going to lose her job.

Everybody, when we come back: He`s charged with killing his wife and their 9-month-old baby girl, murder by gunfire as they slept in their upscale New England home. Now stunning allegations the suspect went trolling on line for hookers immediately after the murder of his wife and daughter. And to top it all off, he`s scheming to make a profit and sell a tell-all story of the murders of his wife and baby.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Neil Entwistle accused of brutally murdering his wife and 9-month-old daughter. Now disturbing allegations that Entwistle`s obsessed with sex, money and violence in the days after his wife and young baby were murdered.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Rachel and Lilly loved Neil very much. Neil was a trusted husband and father and it is incomprehensible how that love and trust was betrayed in the ultimate act of violence.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Entwistle allegedly searching for sex and an old girlfriend, even hoping to sell his story to the highest bidder. But as Neil Entwistle claims his innocence, many are wondering what story could Entwistle have to sell?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: His wife and 9-month-old baby girl are murdered in their sleep by gunfire. I`ve heard about these stages of grief. There are a lot of books and studies that are conducted on it. I didn`t know that trolling for hookers online and in the newspapers was one of those stages but hey, I`m just a lawyer. Out to Joe Dwinnell, reporter and editor with the "Boston Herald." Joe, welcome and what were the circumstances surrounding the two murders?

JOE DWINELL, REPORTER/EDITOR, BOSTON HERALD: Well, the circumstances -- hello and thanks for having me. The circumstances are that back in January 20th on a bitter cold day in 2006, Neil Entwistle is accused of shooting his wife once in the head and his baby girl, 9-month-old baby girl once in the abdomen in their rented home in Huffington, Massachusetts. Then prosecutors say he then fled, jumped on a plane to England, went home and that`s where he was arrested on February 8, 2006.

GRACE: Who owned the gun?

DWINELL: The gun, prosecutors say the gun was his father-in-law`s gun from where he lived with him a month earlier before they moved back in Carver, Massachusetts, about 15 miles away.

GRACE: You are seeing pictures of little Lillian Rose Entwistle, just 9-months-old at the time of her death. Take a look at that, look at this baby. The baby was shot to death in the abdomen. Immediately following his discovery, he says of his wife and 9-month-old baby girl dead, he doesn`t call 911, Naomi Goldstein, he doesn`t call 911, he doesn`t call the family. What does he do?

NAOMI GOLDSTEIN, PRODUCER, NANCY GRACE: Well, allegedly, according to Neil Entwistle, he went out to run some errands, he comes back, he goes upstairs, he discovers that his wife and baby have been murdered. He panics, he go downstairs, figures life is not worth living without them. So he`s going to take a knife out and kill himself. But then he rethinks that plan because a knife might hurt too much. So instead he hops in his car, he drives back to Carver, Massachusetts, where he had lived with his in-laws and is going to get a gun so he can to shoot himself. But he realizes oh, I don`t have the keys. So instead, I`m going to get back into my car and I`m going to drive to the airport and fly home to my parents in England.

GRACE: And when he got to England, Joe Dwinell, did he go straight to his parents home and seek comfort with them? Where did he go his first night in Great Britain?

DWINELL: He stayed in London. Also, he did go and see his parents.

GRACE: But the night that he got there, if he was so distraught, why did he shack up at a hotel?

DWINELL: That`s going to come out in the case. You know, he was later caught on the London underground and it came up just this week that a friend told him that police were looking for him. And he was trying to duck them.

GRACE: And question to you, Joe Dwinell. Joe joining us from the "Boston Herald." When he was arrested, what did he have on his person? I understand something was torn out of a newspaper?

DWINELL: A page out of a British tabloid that had lists of sex sites and escort services that he allegedly was going to go visit. Authorities say he also had a handwritten note stating -- indicating he was ready to sell his story to the highest bidder and also he had a handwritten note indicating that he was trying to look up an old girlfriend.

GRACE: Also joining us tonight, John Depetro, reporter with WRKO Radio. John, what more can you tell us about the circumstances surrounding the death of Rachel and Lillian Entwistle?

JOHN DEPETRO, WPRO RADIO: Actually, it`s WPRO, Nancy.

GRACE: Ah, thank you.

DEPETRO: It`s so disturbing because there was so many different options for this person to take and a lot of people face financial difficulties. A lot of people face different troubles with the economy in such turbulence. But all the information that`s come out so far is just so disturbing with someone wrought with death and then seemingly sex-obsessed. New baby, new wife, all the responsibilities and said allegedly checking out escort services and instead going online for different ways to commit murder.

It`s so disturbing and I think the evidence will show someone that really has just completely bottomed out and took the most cowardly action possible, and that is the life of a young newborn.

Joining us, John Depetro with WPRO Radio. Very quickly, I want to go to Dr. Zhongxue Hua, Union County New Jersey medical examiner. Doctor, what would this baby have suffered being shot in the abdomen and left to bleed to death?

DR. ZHONGXUE HUA, MEDICAL EXAMINER: It`s really depending on which part of the body has been shot. If it`s a shot in the heart.

GRACE: Abdomen.

HUA: Yes abdomen it depends, you can shoot a big vessel in the midportion. It could be extensive bleeding, die quickly. If we simply shoot a small organ in the abdominal area, the baby can suffer and live for a longer period of time.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Linda in California. Hi, Linda.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. I love your show. You`re awesome. I never miss it.

GRACE: Thank you very much. What`s your question, dear?

CALLER: Nancy, this was definitely -- do you think this was definitely like premeditated?

GRACE: You know what? The fact that they were sleeping at the time of their murders, allegedly sleeping, they were lying in the bed in a sleeping position to me says yes, because there was no argument going on. There was no scuffle over a gun. He didn`t trip and fall and shoot both of them by accident. The gun didn`t go off while he was cleaning it.

And remember, Linda, premeditation can be formed in an instant, in the blink of an eye, as long enough to raise the gun, pull the trigger. That`s enough time under the law for premeditation. It does not require a long, drawn out plan, such as poisoning someone over a period of time or hiring a hitman. Premeditation under the law is simply the intent to do the act.

Lawyers joining us, Holly Hughes, Eric Chase, Penny Douglas-Furr. Penny Douglas-Furr, what is your best defense of this guy?

PENNY DOUGLAS-FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I would argue a mental health defense. He seems like a total nutcase.

GRACE: Oh, really?

DOUGLAS-FURR: To be capable of standing there and shooting your child, shooting your wife.

GRACE: So how would a total nutcase drive himself to the airport, purchase a ticket for an overseas flight, got to have a passport, I.D., the whole sha bang, to get overseas. Get over there, rent a car, shack up at a hotel, troll online and in the paper for hookers, try to look up an old friend. I mean, does that sound like someone mentally incompetent to you?

DOUGLAS-FURR: No Nancy, they have all kinds of nutcases. You have to understand.

GRACE: So there`s a wide variety.

DOUGLAS-FURR: It doesn`t mean they can`t drive. I have a case now where a father is saying that he`s disabled and can`t pay child support because he`s a sex addict and an alcoholic.

GRACE: OK, thank you for throwing that in. To Andy Kahan with the Houston mayor`s office victims unit, what about him, his hand written note to sell a tell-all story?

ANDY KAHAN, VICTIMS CRIME OFFICE: I got news for you, Nancy and I`ve got news for the citizens of Massachusetts, you do not have any Son of Sam laws. The Massachusetts state supreme court ruled all Son of Sam laws in that state unconstitutional. So there`s no laws on the books to prevent this individual from selling his rights. Son of Sam laws do not exist. The Supreme Court, the United States Supreme Court ruled them unconstitutional.

GRACE: With us Andy Kahan from Houston, everybody. Tonight as we go to break, we`re taking your calls live and I want to have a special welcome to Gaffney, South Carolina friend of the show, Jenelle Moss (ph). She turns 98 in August. Since her 80th birthday, she`s held down three jobs, taking care of the elderly, many of whom are younger than her, an expert seamstress, an extremely popular hostess for the Sagebrook Steakhouse. She`s the oldest employee in the whole nationwide chain. They love her and so do we. And tonight, we salute our troops.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is Nicole Sanchez (ph) of Pine Mountain, Georgia welcoming home my husband Staff Sergeant Jorge Sanchez (ph) and all the other soldiers of the 3rd I.D. returning home to Ft. Benning. I love watching my husband and my 19-month-old son bonding together after this long deployment. It`s so heartwarming. The previous months of sacrifice just melt away. Thanks so much for honoring our troops.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shackled and chained, the British man accused of killing his wife and baby. He insists he`s not guilty of two counts of first degree murder. There are accusations of fraud, huge debt and a failed suicide pact. The prosecution will claim that Entwistle shot his wife and 9-month-old daughter with a handgun. Investigators claim to have uncovered evidence which damns him and shatters the image of a happy family. They say Entwistle searched the Internet for information on how to kill people and he was crippled by debt.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The family is deeply saddened at the arrest of Neil Entwistle for the arrests of Rachel and Lillian Rose. Rachel and Lilly loved Neil very much. Neil was a trusted husband and father and it is incomprehensible how that love and trust was betrayed in the ultimate act of violence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to the lines. Lisa in Tennessee, hi, dear.

CALLER: Hi Nancy, how are you?

GRACE: I`m good. What`s your question?

CALLER: My question is, first of all, Nancy, I am a mother of two. I raised my kids alone and murder was never an option, you know. Things got hard, never an option. My thing is, was the marriage violent? I mean, was there problems?

GRACE: Excellent question. To Joe Dwinell with the "Boston Herald." Joe, was there any ever domestic violence that we know of?

DWINELL: No, none. No domestic violence.

GRACE: You know, that`s pretty incredible, to Lillian Glass, never a hint of this, but we`re seeing that more and more. Look at Scott Peterson, look at Rabbi Fred Neulander. You don`t see any pattern of violence and then suddenly the wife is dead.

LILLIAN GLASS, PSYCHOLOGY: Right and you don`t know if there`s violence that`s festering within these people, that they`re really angry. Now we know that he`s been sex obsessed, so maybe there was some sexual problems in the relationship.

GRACE: Well according to him, I don`t know how psyched up she was about their sex life if she had any idea he was trolling online for hookers. I mean, that may have had something to do with it.

To Andy Kahan with the victims assistance division there in Houston`s mayor office. There is a way, even though there are no Son of Sam laws, to stop him from profiting off the story. How?

KAHAN: You bet there is, Nancy. Rachel`s family needs to file a wrongful death suit and basically get a judgment against this particular person that if he does profit from selling his rights that they can seize all proceeds. That`s what the Goldmans did, that`s what the LaBiancas did with Charles Manson.

And more importantly let`s look at the big issue. We have a federal bill to prevent criminals from profiting. I want to challenge all your viewers contact your congressman and your senators and get them to support Senate bill 1528 to stop people from profiting.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Michael in Georgia. Hi, Michael.

CALLER: Hi, how are you doing?

GRACE: I`m good, what`s your question?

CALLER: Yes, ma`am. Is there any way to keep him from pleading insanity or mental health issue and how much do they have to prove that he knew exactly what he was doing when he did it and the consequences of it?

GRACE: Holly Hughes, prosecutor in Atlanta, you can`t stop him from pleading not guilty by reason of insanity or mental defect. But how do you go about showing he knew what he was doing?

HOLLY HUGHES, PROSECUTOR: Well, Nancy, the standard is - I mean, this guy`s crazy, but he`s not insane. And that`s the difference in the law. You would have to prove that he did not know the difference between right and wrong and the fact that he fled after these murders were committed, the fact that he did all this planning -- he got himself a ticket, he got out of the country, all of that, Nancy, proves that he`s not insane. He`s not going to be able to meet that burden.

GRACE: What about it, Eric Chase?

ERIC CHASE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think this case - we haven`t talked about it. This case is going to be all about the DNA forensics. His DNA was apparently found on the handle of the gun. Her DNA was found on the muzzle of the gun. I think this case is going to be about the DNA science.

GRACE: Are you suggesting she shot herself?

CHASE: No, no. His DNA was found on the handle.

GRACE: Exactly.

CHASE: Her DNA was found on the muzzle.

GRACE: What more do you need?

CHASE: But it`s a very complicated DNA situation. There were partial matches. His DNA apparently came from a Dasani water bottle. There was a mixture of many people`s DNA. This is going to be a very complicated case from the scientific standpoint of making the DNA matches and I think that`s what this case is going to be about.

GRACE: To Ricky in Louisiana. Hi dear.

CALLER: Hi, how are you doing?

GRACE: What`s your question?

CALLER: My question is, if in fact that he got home and found his young baby shot and his wife shot, why didn`t he call the police immediately instead of panicking and leaving the scene?

GRACE: Oh, Ricky, I agree with you completely. What`s your answer to that, Penny?

DOUGLAS-FURR: Nancy, I agree. I think his biggest problem on the insanity defense is the fact that he ran. That`s what kills the insanity defense. I think he`s crazy, but running did it for him.

GRACE: Everybody, quick break and as we go to break, CNN Heroes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PHYMEAN NOUN, CHAMPIONING CHILDREN: We`re standing on the victim`s site. The scavengers are collecting cans, plastic bags and other things that can be sold to buy rice. There are a lot of children here. I`ve seen many kids get killed by trucks. They work here for about 10 to 12 hours a day and they make about $1.30. Sometimes they don`t make any money at all. One day at lunch, I was eating chicken and when I threw it away, 10 children ran straight to the trash to collect the bones. I wanted to do something to help them. My name is Phymean Noun. I recruit children from this dump to attend school at my organization. I want them to have an opportunity to learn. Good morning, how are you?

CROWD: Fine, thank you.

NOUN: some kids in my school collect trash until late at night and they fall asleep in the classroom. If they don`t have an education, some kids will collect trash until the day they die. It continues from one to the next.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When I was at the dump, sometimes I was feared by broken glass, needles and razors. The school provides me with an education, materials and a place to eat.

NOUN: These children are our next generation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: What a week in America`s courtrooms. Take a look at the stories and more important the people who touched our lives.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Disturbing pictures have emerged of Warren Jeffs kissing some of his alleged child brides. At least one of which authorities allege is just 12-years-old.

WARREN JEFFS, POLYGAMIST: Breaking the new and everlasting covenant and being the most wicked man on the face of the earth in this last dispensation.

GRACE: Well, you can certainly say that again. Stunning photos of the prophet Warren Jeffs deep kissing a 12-year-old and a 13-year-old girl. One of them in their first wedding anniversary photo.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police are trying to determine the motive behind the brutal killing of 56-year-old school counselor Rebecca D`Aoust. D`Aoust`s 14-year-old daughter was taken into custody and is now in juvenile hall on suspicion of murder.

GRACE: In a beautiful and idyllic setting just at twilight, the sun setting, bullets tear through a wedding ceremony. The bride shot between the eyes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I miss you too. And it`s like she`s not suffering, I am. I have the loss. She can give two (BLEEP).

GRACE: Oh, boo-hoo. He`s in a cell without a window. His victim is lying in a hospital bed for the rest of his life. Part of his brain removed. Why? Because Hulk Hogan`s son was on his third, that we know of, drag racing incident, fueled by alcohol.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Let`s stop and remember army specialist Brandon Meyer, 20, Orange, California, killed Iraq. Courageous, loved practical jokes, horses, surfing. Favorite color, baby blue. Leaves behind grieving wife Caitlin, parents Terry and Jan (ph), sister Desiree (ph). Brandon Meyer, American hero.

Thanks to our guest and especially to you for being with us tonight. And happy 40th birthday to Georgia friend of the show Clarice. And good night from the New York control room. Good night Brett, Liz, Rosie, and goodbye to one of the stars on our show, Naomi. She heads off to get her MBA at Wharton School of Business. Naomi, break a leg, walk slow and hurry back, superstar.

Everybody, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.

END