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NANCY GRACE
Debra Lafave Arrested for Probation Violation
Aired December 4, 2007 - 20:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: Breaking news tonight. Her attorney said she`s too pretty to go to jail. Then came the sweetheart plea deal, all after she admits sexually assaulting a 14-year-old boy student. Florida teacher Debra Lafave escapes hard prison time, serving only house arrest. But tonight, as her attorney works the courts for her early release off house arrest , police slap the cuffs on Lafave again, this time for violating probation by having inappropriate conversations with a minor.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: More trouble for Debra Lafave. She is the notorious former teacher convicted of having sex with a 14-year-old student. Well, she was arrested today, this time accused of having unsupervised contact with a minor, a 17-year-old girl she worked with at a restaurant. Cops say it is not sexual contact, yet it is still a violation of her probation. Now, Lafave could have been released from her three-year house arrest a year early. Just last week, her lawyer was preparing the paperwork to end her probation because of two years of good behavior. This obviously may throw a wrench in those plans.
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: Also tonight: Where is young mom of two Stacy Peterson, who vanished into thin air in the Chicago suburbs? Her husband, a former police sergeant, is a prime suspect in her disappearance. Prosecutors now reviewing allegations of police misconduct against Drew Peterson. An internal affairs investigation reportedly accuses Peterson of using police computers to run unauthorized background checks on his missing wife and her friends, a practice Peterson`s attorney said was widespread at the Bolingbrook Police Department, and said if his client is charged, well, other officers should be, too. At stake, Peterson`s $6,000-a-month pension.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Illinois State Police investigators are now looking into the claim that Drew was doing background checks on some friends of Stacy Peterson on work time, and that, in fact, they`re wondering whether that is some sort of police violation, he can, in a sense (ph), lose his -- his retirement benefits, more than $6,000 a month after nearly 30 years on the police force.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A Bolingbrook police log shows a rocky relationship between Stacy, Drew and Savio. They responded to 19 calls for help between the three in a two-year period, including one where Savio apparently punched Stacy in the face in May of 2002.
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. First tonight, breaking news. The Florida teacher Debra Lafave, who admits having sex with a 14-year-old student, is arrested again.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lafave`s probation officer says for the past year, she talked with that teen about family problems, high school, boyfriends and sexual issues. This is surveillance video of Lafave walking into the Orient Road (ph) jail. You can see the 27-year-old is wearing a pink shirt and bluejeans. She was arrested at 12:30 this afternoon. And this is the former teacher`s new mug shot, taken inside the jail. Her attorney, John Fitzgibbons, says she completed two of her three years of house arrest with no problem. But now Lafave could technically receive the max sentence for this probation violation, which is 15 years in prison.
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in tonight for Nancy Grace. Debra Lafave is back in the headlines, that gorgeous blond bombshell teacher who admitted she had sex with a 14-year-old boy but still managed to avoid jail, wrangled a plea deal a couple years back that left her with no jail time and house arrest. Now, she was allowed to go to a job, but she had to promise not to have any contact with anybody under 18. Now the shocking news that Debra allegedly made contact with a 17-year-old female co-worker at the restaurant where she worked, violating the terms of her plea deal. She was arrested today and has already been released on her own recognizance.
For more on all of this, let`s go straight out to investigative reporter Eben Brown. Eben, what is the very latest?
EBEN BROWN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Good evening, Jane. Debra Beasley (ph), as she`s now being called -- that`s her maiden name -- was rearrested in Tampa today, and this was because she had conversations with a co-worker at a restaurant where she was working. This co-worker just happened to be 17 years old. But they discussed things that, well, co- workers and possibly friends would discuss -- family issues, boyfriend issues. But because of her plea deal, she`s not allowed to talk about any of this type of stuff with a minor, especially in an unsupervised setting. And that`s what caused her to get cited for a probation violation.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So she was released. We have video of her walking out of jail with her mom. What happens next, a hearing?
BROWN: Well, next she`ll go in front of a judge and the judge will have to decide whether or not she`ll go to jail, after all.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, we are so delighted to have with us tonight Owen Lafave. He is Debra Lafave`s ex-husband. He is author of a fabulous book, which I`ve read, "Gorgeous Disaster," about his disastrous marriage to this gorgeous woman. You have been hearing all the information as it comes in, Owen. Is this innocent girl talk, as Debra Lafave`s attorney insists, that this was innocent, this was just a casual conversation, she`s talking to a co-worker, just who happens to be 17, or do you think there`s something more to it because they talked about quote, unquote, "sexual issues"?
OWEN LAFAVE, DEBRA LAFAVE`S EX-HUSBAND: Well, I think, at this point, we have no idea what those conversations actually consisted of. What we do know is she`s a 27-year-old. She befriended a 17-year-old and definitely had conversations that were inappropriate. We`re talking about boyfriends. We`re talking about sex. And after all, her probation, her house arrest, prohibited her from having these types of conversations, as well as any type of engagement with minors. And so what -- she knew what she was doing was wrong, is the bottom line here.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Owen, essentially, the lawyer`s saying this was girl talk, that it meant nothing because this is a female. However, in your book, "Gorgeous Disaster," you talk about a same-sex relationship that she had allegedly in high school. Tell us about that.
LAFAVE: That`s accurate, and that`s something that`s been substantiated. And actually, this female in particular has given public interviews. She had a relationship with a female. So the fact that this girl is female shouldn`t make a difference. She`s a minor.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let`s bring in the attorneys right off the bat, Susan Moss family law attorney, as well as a child advocate, and of course, Eleanor Dixon, prosecutor, and Ray Giudice, defense attorney out of Atlanta.
Guys, take it away. Start with you, Susan. Should she go to jail now? She escaped jail the first time around, got a plea deal after her lawyer argued she was too pretty for prison.
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: She absolutely must go to jail. There was an order she`s to have absolutely no contact with minors, yet she works in a restaurant called Danny`s Boy. (SIC) It was only a matter of time. And now she`s done it. Her lawyers say she was good for two years. Well, two out of three may not be bad, but in this case, it`s going to lead to jail. You must comply with the exact letter of the law when it comes to probation. If you make even a small violation, it`s like being a little pregnant. You`re going to jail.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, but Ray Giudice, how does she work without talking to this other waitress? I mean...
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, that`s right. A condition of probation on any sentence is that you have employment, pay her restitution, her fines. She was in total compliance with her probation for the last two years. She`s out doing a job. This is incidental conversation. What if a 17-year-old customer came into the business or someone came in to ask for directions, How do I get to the hospital? That`s going to be contact.
A good judge is going to look at this in light of her compliance with over two years of probation, and I believe this is going to just get her attention, fine tune the rest of the sentence, and put her back out. You notice that she was not restrained without a bond. She walked right back out today.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Eleanor Dixon, the problem is, if they do send her back, let`s say they sort of renege the plea deal that she got a couple of years ago and they say, Now you got to go back to prison, it could be for 30 years because she basically got a plea deal on two counts that could land her 15 years each. Do you think it`s fair to throw her back in jail for 30 years for talking to a co-worker at a restaurant?
ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Well, I think we need to look at this. It`s not incidental contact, like Ray Giudice seems to claim. This is deliberate. It`s predatory behavior. And I wonder how the public would feel if this was a male defendant and a female victim. I think they would feel a lot differently. I think we need to treat predators the same way. And yes, I think she deserves to go to jail. She had a "Get out of jail free" card. She knew the conditions of her probation and she violated them very willingly.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let`s go to the horse`s mouth, so to speak, Dennis Cutini. He is the owner and manager of Danny Boy`s restaurant, where Debra Lafave worked or the last two years, although she`s recently left as a result of all this and now works at her mother`s beauty salon.
Dennis, thank you so much for joining us. Tell us the Debra Lafave that you knew working at your restaurant.
DENNIS CUTINI, OWNER, DANNY BOY`S RESTAURANT: Well, Debby (ph) was a model employee for us. She worked here for two years. She`s befriended all the employees. They love her. She takes care of all our customers. I mean, we even had customers tonight, because of the incident, come in and even speak with the local channel newscasters that were here and said how they miss her, that she`s no longer here to take care of them.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So do you think they`re criminalizing basically harmless conversations that she had with this other co-worker, or do you think she might have done something a little nefarious?
CUTINI: No, I think it`s all a misunderstanding. Again, when you have fellow co-workers and you might be sitting around a table chatting. You know, we have a lot of employees here, and they`ll sit in front and take care and do their side duties, and a lot of conversations are struck up at that time. But I`ve never witnessed any inappropriate behavior by Debby.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And was she devastated when this happened? And how did it happen? They came in and they basically started interviewing people randomly?
CUTINI: Well, Debby was not here at the time because she`s -- she hasn`t been employed here in three weeks.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, I want to go back to Eleanor Dixon, prosecutor. You`re hearing now this other version of the story, the man who was there, the owner of the restaurant, watching Debra Lafave work, saying she was a wonderful employee. Have you changed your mind about her going back to prison?
DIXON: No, I haven`t changed my mind about that because what we`re talking about are these conversations, the continual contact that she had with this 17-year-old girl. And again, the conditions of her probation are very clear. There`s -- you know, I`ve read them. I think you have, too. And they say no contact with anyone under the age of 18. No contact means no contact.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, the phone lines are lighting up, but I want to go back to Owen Lafave, Debra`s ex-husband, just to put this all in context. Take us back to the original crime, having sex with a 14-year-old boy, because I remember it distinctly, Owen, that she had and admitted to having sex numerous times. And the one that really got me was in the back of an SUV, she was having sex with a 14-year-old boy while his 15-year-old cousin was driving them around.
LAFAVE: That`s absolutely right. And actually, this feels like 2004 all over again. I mean, I`m surprised at the attention it got back then. I`m still surprised that this is a story today. But regardless, I think it was just, you know, something that people just couldn`t fathom. I mean, she had sex in our townhome. She had sex in the classroom, as well as in the back of her SUV while the cousin drove them around. It`s still something to this very day that`s very vivid in my mind.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And that precisely is why it made national news for so long, and of course, the fact...
LAFAVE: That`s exactly right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... that she`s very, very attractive.
Alexa in Washington, your question, ma`am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Jane. I think once a child predator, always a child predator. And my question is, I`d like to know why was Debra hired at a restaurant where younger employees are usually employed there?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. Good question. Dennis Cutini, owner/manager of Danny Boy`s restaurant, where she worked, did the authorities come in and say -- did they do a test before they allowed her to work there?
CUTINI: No, none whatsoever. We never were given any guidelines that she couldn`t work here if a minor was working here.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But how is she supposed to function if she can`t talk to minors, when, as somebody mentioned, there could be a minor who walks in and wants a soda?
CUTINI: Well, that`s correct. If we were notified that prior to her employment, or when she was hired, that she could not work with or associate with minors, then Debby probably would not have been hired at that time. But we did not get those guidelines. We knew that she wasn`t able to serve or take care of customers that were -- had minors. And we -- you know, the girls would always make sure that she didn`t wait on that table. They would fill in and take that table for her.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So Susan Moss, family law attorney, did the authorities drop the ball by not really outlining the boundaries to the point where she knew where she was going into dangerous territory?
MOSS: Absolutely not. It was Debra Lafave`s responsibility to make sure she lives up to these probation guidelines. She knew what they were. She`s the one who should have said to her boss, I can have no contact with any minors. And you know what? This was not the right job for her.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I may agree with you there. Lauren Howard, psychotherapist, this young woman, even though she seems very attractive and very lucky in the sense that every guy probably fantasizes about being with her, has had a rough life. She diagnoses herself as being bipolar. She`s also said publicly that she was raped by an older student when she was 13 years old. And in 2001, her pregnant sister was tragically killed in a car accident, which apparently devastated her. Do we need to take all this into consideration?
LAUREN HOWARD, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: No because we`re not her mental health professionals.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you are.
HOWARD: Well, I`m not. And you know -- I`m not. And so I would need...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You`re a psychotherapist.
HOWARD: Yes, but I would need to sit down with her before I could speak to that. I have to say this looks like a witch hunt to me. It really, really does. If all of a sudden, the authorities are so concerned about her having girl talk with a 17-year-old co-worker, why weren`t they there, making sure she didn`t get in her way before she took this job?
Is the purpose of a punishment to try to rehabilitate a person or is it to try to catch them? Do we take a heroin addict and have him process poppy plants? I mean, if they really felt that she should not be talking with co-workers and they were going to -- I mean, looking -- you know, this is like the scarlet letter. This girl`s not getting a chance. She spent two years under house arrest. You hear it from her boss, behaving beautifully. Yes, we can look at her history of trauma, say all of these things influenced her. She`s had a tough time. Are we trying to give her a leg up here and fix her, or are we trying to make it worse and catch her?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Susan Moss, Lauren Howard is making some really good points.
MOSS: She is. But she got away with not going to jail by the hair on her chinny, chin, chin. And in exchange for that, she had very strict rules and guidelines that she was supposed to live by. She failed to live by and now she`s going to go and pay the piper for her original crime.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, we don`t know that yet. We`ve got a lot more on this case when we come right back. What should happen to Debra Lafave? She`s in trouble again, believe it or not. Wow.
To tonight`s "Case Alert." Three suspects denied bond in the shooting death of NFL superstar Sean Taylor, Taylor gunned down on November 27 inside his Miami home, the men facing charges of first-degree murder and armed burglary, a fourth suspect, a juvenile, awaiting transfer from Ft. Myers to Miami. A grand jury has identified that juvenile as the gunman. A fifth suspect is also now reportedly connected to the case.
And also tonight, on a much happier note, check out an all-new message from Nancy about the twins on her baby blog. And coming very, very soon, exclusive pictures and video of little Lucy Elizabeth and little John David. That`s at CNN.com/nancygrace. Click on Nancy`s baby blog.
And remember, Nancy Grace makes her much anticipated return right here on "Headline News" on January 7. Mark it on your calendar, 8:00 PM sharp, Eastern.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would characterize this simply as girl talk, or guy talk, if you will, among fellow employees that all of us do every day, we hope, in the workplace. This is it. There`s no more, there`s no less. I`ve spoken to her probation officer. I`ve spoken to her counselor. And this is it. There`s no allegations of anything more than this. Nothing.
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. She was the teacher her attorney -- just heard him right there -- called her too pretty for prison a while back, a woman who had sex with a 14-year-old boy not once but numerous times. She got a plea deal. Now she`s in trouble again.
Mike Brooks, former D.C. police detective, I want to read to you what that attorney, John Fitzgibbons, said a couple of years ago that created such an uproar. "To place Debby in a Florida state women`s penitentiary, to place an attractive young woman in that kind of hellhole is like putting a piece of raw meat in with the lions."
It absolutely created an uproar because the obvious implication is that attractive people shouldn`t go to jail or prison, only people who are not attractive.
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: I tell you what, anybody reads this police report and the behavior of her with that 14-year-old boy -- she should have been locked up to begin with. It`s a total double standard. And right now, is she going to get another double standard? Is she going to get another chance? Probably so.
But you know, I`m telling you, what they need to do now, the probation officer needs to go back and find out what she`s been up to for two years. I place a little bit of blame on the probation officer for not keeping up with what she has been doing. So now they need to backtrack, go back, find out, has she had any other contact, you know, non-work-related issues like she had with this girl -- did she have this with any other young man or any other young girls over the last two years?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you know, you raise a good point. Is this the tip of the iceberg? Fascinating question.
Andrea from Florida, your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I would like to know why she didn`t get prison time, like Mary Kay Letourneau did.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, that`s what we`re all arguing. And let`s bring the lawyers back in. Eleanor Dixon, prosecutor, she managed to get a plea deal. She was originally charged in two counties, the second county, where she drove around in the SUV while the cousin drove, and the first county. And she was facing four serious counts that could have landed her 60 years, and she ended up with this house arrest deal. How does that happen?
DIXON: It happens because, probably, she`s got a good attorney because she should have gone to jail in the very beginning. Also, it`s the responsibility of the judge to sentence someone. So for whatever reason the judge gave her a break with some very strict probation requirements. But clearly, she can`t keep those, either.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ray Giudice, part of it was that...
(CROSSTALK)
GIUDICE: Eleanor`s memory is not 100 percent. I love you Eleanor, but the district attorney in this case folded on the serious mandatory jail time charges. They may have had a good reason about not wanting...
DIXON: The reason is...
GIUDICE: ... to put the victim through...
DIXON: Yes. Exactly.
GIUDICE: But in the end -- but in the end of the day, that was the district attorney`s position, not the defense lawyer`s problem. The defense lawyer did his job, and the judge had to go along because the serious charges were removed by the district attorney.
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DEBRA LAFAVE, CONVICTED OF HAVING SEX WITH MALE STUDENT: I want the world to see that bipolar is real. If anything, I`m tired of the media. I don`t think not one time has the media brought up the subject of my bipolar. And I challenge you to read a book or an article on bipolar illness.
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. Tonight, Debra Lafave back in hot water, the troubled former teacher who had sex with a 14-year-old boy violating the terms of her plea deal by talking with a 17-year-old girl.
I want to go straight back to Owen Lafave, who is Debra Lafave`s ex- husband and author of this book, "Gorgeous Disaster." Great book. Owen, you probably know her better than almost anyone. What do you think makes her tick? I mean, why is she in hot water again? Why is she always in such trouble?
LAFAVE: You know, I think it`s someone who just clearly has a history and a pattern of executing poor judgment. She`s done it time and time again her whole life. Her parents have always cleaned up behind her. And I think, actually, that`s the reason why she`s lived with her parents for the past two years, because they`re afraid to let her out of the household.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And you know, the other big controversy, Owen, was that , essentially, when she had sex with this 14-year-old boy, it was a victimless crime, according to some pundits, who said, Oh, I wish I had a teacher like that, who would victimize me when I was in school. And I know that upset you greatly. Tell us why.
LAFAVE: Well, you know, that was the reason that I really started to speak out. And of course, I wrote my book. I worked on a documentary called "After School" and talked to a number of experts and victims. And these boys are victims and there`s, you know, psychological evidence that, you know, is there in writing for people to see that these boys are victims.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: When we come back, the search goes on for Stacy Peterson as prosecutors review allegations of police misconduct against her husband, suspect Drew Peterson.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A Bolingbrook police log shows a rocky relationship between Stacy, Drew and Savio. They responded to 19 calls for help between the three in a two-year period, including one where Savio apparently punched Stacy in the face in May of 2002.
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell in for Nancy Grace. Drew Peterson, a suspect in his wife`s Stacy`s disappearance comes out swinging tonight against claims -- what he claims is a witch hunt against him.
The former cop whose third wife died under suspicious circumstances and fourth wife is missing and feared dead is now accusing the prosecution of quote, "vindictive prosecution" end quote. This has sparked a war of words and a flurry of accusations and counter charges between the local cops in Bolingbrook, Illinois, and Drew Peterson`s lawyer.
For more on all of this as well as some breaking news just into CNN, let`s go straight out to CNN correspondent Keith Oppenheim who is in Chicago. Keith what is this breaking news?
KEITH OPPENHEIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, good evening, Jane. About a half-hour ago "The Sun-Times" broke that there had been a search warrant that had been executed at Drew Peterson`s home and that Drew Peterson was at home at the time of the search. Just a few minutes ago we called the Will County state`s attorney`s office to get clarification of what does that mean. And what we were told is this is an expansion of a warrant that was served to Drew Peterson, an expansion of a warrant to already look at things that state police have in custody.
Keep in mind that on November 1, police did a search at Drew Peterson`s home. They took ammunition. They took guns. They took some computers and they took two weeks. Our understanding from the state`s attorney`s office is this search warrant executed tonight gives them more room to look specifically at those vehicles that were taken on November 1.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now Mike Brooks, former DC police detective who served on the FBI terrorism task force, does this signal a break in the case? Because in my mind, as a lay person, any time authorities go back into a suspect`s house, whatever the technical justification, they may know something more or is it a case that they just want to be able to keep Drew Peterson`s guns and his cars which Drew wants back and this is a good excuse to say, well, we need to keep them?
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER DC POLICE DETECTIVE: No. I don`t think so. There had to be something new, a new lead, something they developed that would get them to go back in there. Keep in mind, you just can`t waltz your way into a person`s home. It has to be signed by a judge. It is a search warrant.
And the other question I`d be really anxious to hear is was it done by the Illinois State Police by themselves or was the FBI also with them and possibly people of their evidence response team executing a warrant.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We are delighted to have with us tonight Pam Bosco, she is a friend of Stacy Peterson`s. And she is also the Stacy Peterson family spokeswoman. Pam, thank you so much for joining us. I know this has to be emotionally trying for you. You`ve heard this breaking news. They are going back into Drew Peterson`s home and he was there. Do you think this is a break in the case? Does it give you cause for hope?
PAM BOSCO STACY PETERSON FAMILY SPOKESPERSON: Actually we were given a heads up on that by the Illinois State Police that this was going to occur. They really wouldn`t divulge too much information, just that it was going to happen. They have so much information on this case that they are not really divulging to us. Obviously, this does mean they have something of importance that they need to get back in the house for.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Pam, it sounds like you know more than you are saying. We have been hearing the past couple of days about this blue barrel the relative allegedly helped Drew Peterson move and then a man who looked like Drew Peterson and this unidentified man approaching truckers in the dead of the night saying can you move this container? What can you tell us to give us an inkling of where all that is headed.
BOSCO: There has been a little bit of confusion on what was taken, what kind of barrels and things like that. First of all, the blue barrel possibly arose because Cassandra, the sister on Friday, saw a 30-gallon drum in the garage when she left the house that day. She asked Stacy what it was. She said it was chlorine Drew had bought for the pool. The might have been what that blue container arose from. The same with Thomas Morphy (ph) that he helped carry a container out. Might not possibly have been that. Because that one was a sealed top, or so Cassandra thought.
So there is two different containers we might be speaking about here. The other situation is with the two truckers. They said it was a package. They didn`t have clarification of what the package might be, shape, size or whatever. So we really don`t have a description on what the size or what that package really was.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We have to point out, Drew Peterson has not been charged with anything. His attorney says and he says he had nothing to do with Stacy`s disappearance. He claims that she ran off with some mysterious other man. Ditto for this relative who CNN is not identifying. He has not been charged with anything.
This case is really open right now. We always extend an invitation to Drew Peterson and his attorney to come on the show and tell their side of the story.
But Howard Oliver, L.A. former deputy medical examiner and forensic pathologist, we hear that Stacy told her sister that there was blue drum that had some pool chemicals in it and now that drum is reportedly missing. And what if it wasn`t pool chemicals? What if it was something else?
HOWARD OLIVER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Good evening. It could be some caustic material if you wanted to really dispose of body tissues. But in this case, we don`t know what it was. It would have to be a drum of substantial size. More than a 30-gallon drum that you are speaking of. It would have to be, I imagine, a 50-gallon drum. That in itself doesn`t give us any evidence unless we have the drum and the contents, of course.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. David in Arizona, your question, sir.
CALLER: Yes, good evening. Actually a couple of statements and a question. I have 17 years experience as a law enforcement officer. When you are hired by any police department you sign an agreement that in the event of an internal department investigation you will submit to a polygraph or be terminated. I wonder if that is why Peterson retired, you know, in lieu of being fired. The lawyer on last night`s show was wrong about it taking an injunction to take away firearms. There is a federal mandate to all states that any individual charged with domestic violence will immediately surrender his or her firearms.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Right. But Mary Frances Bragiel, the reporter for WMMB News Radio, and thank you, David, those are very good points that you raise. He hasn`t been charged with domestic violence. Has he? That`s the irony. We are hearing all these calls to his - that were going to the police station from his third wife`s home. We`re hearing all these women talking about, oh, I feel scared of him. He threatened me, but he has never been charged, right?
MARY FRANCES BRAGIEL, WBBM NEWS RADIO 780: That`s right. He has never been charged. A lot of these calls that have been logged here are problems in between Kathleen Savio, his third wife, and Drew regarding situations involving the children. He didn`t drop them off at the right time or she wasn`t there or something like that to that nature. But he hasn`t been charged with domestic abuse.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, this caller also raised an important point about why did he retire because of all this. But apparently that is more to do with the pension issue and the fact that police wanted to charge him with something or accuse him of some kind of official misconduct and he said, I`m going to jump the gun and retire before you can do that to me. Tell us about that Mary Frances Bragiel.
BRAGIEL: Basically what he -- Bolingbrook Police Department wanted him to be part of an internal investigation. And he didn`t want to take part in it so he quit right beforehand. And so then the police board said under a statute they had no choice but to give him his $6,000 a month pension after nearly 30 years of service.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, let`s bring in the lawyers. Susan Moss, family attorney and child advocate, Eleanor Dixon, prosecutor, Ray Giudite, defense attorney. Starting with you. Susan, should he be deprived of his pension? You`ve heard the reports that he has been accused of using his position as a police officer to do secret background checks on his wife and her friends.
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Yeah. Apparently he was doing background checks on all of her friends. Apparently he was trying to get to know his wife who apparently he didn`t know very well. But if he committed a crime before he retired such as, oh, say, a double murder, or even -- not saying that he did it, but if he did, just like the book, "If He Did It," absolutely, he should not have the pension because he has committed this act before the point of retirement. Also a dispatcher from that very Police Department was fired for doing exactly what now it is alleged that Drew Peterson did, which was use this lead service for his own personal use, to do background checks on people who did not need to have background checks.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We are going to let the other attorneys answer in just a moment. But first tonight, great news. It`s a brand new message from Nancy about the twins on her baby blog. And coming very soon, exclusive pictures and video of the twins. That`s at cnn.com/nancygrace. Click on Nancy`s baby blog. And remember, Nancy Grace makes her much anticipated return right here on Headline News on January 7, 8:00 p.m. sharp Eastern.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DREW PETERSON, MURDER SUSPECT: Folks, this is the holiday season. I know at least five families that are losing their homes that are in this area.
You probably should maybe put an effort into saving these people and their families, reaching out to your fellow man. If someone needs a shoulder to cry on or need a meal for their families, you guys should maybe be putting an effort into doing that rather than harassing my family. Folks, have a good day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell in tonight for Nancy Grace. Breaking news in the disappearance of Stacy Peterson. Authorities showed up at Drew Peterson`s home, and we are going to go back to Keith Oppenheim for some clarification. Do we know, Keith, if they went into the home or did they simply serve him at the doorstep with this extension of an existing search warrant?
OPPENHEIM: I believe it is much more the latter, they served him the search warrant. In fact, during this broadcast we called Joel Brodsky, who is Drew Peterson`s attorney, he says that police were not in the house. He also says that he believes the expanded search warrant for the vehicles is a response to his motion to get the vehicles and some of the other stuff that was taken out of Drew Peterson`s house back. In fact, there is a hearing for just that next week.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And we know that Drew Peterson lives with four children, I believe. The two youngest, by Stacy, and then the teenagers by his previous wife, Kathleen Savio. Is that correct and were they at home, do we know, when all this happened?
OPPENHEIM: Well, generally, the two youngest children would be at home with him. But honestly, I don`t know if they were or not.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to bring Pam Bosco back into this conversation, Stacy Peterson`s friend and family spokesperson. What is it like for these young kids going through this? They have to know something is up, maybe not the younger kids, but the teenagers, I believe they are two boys?
BOSCO: Yes. You can only assume they must go to school and hear something about it when they do go there. I don`t know how much Drew can actually protect them at home in regards to the news media in regards to what is being played on TV. But you can only imagine they are hearing some of it while they are actually attending school. And I imagine it is difficult. Children sometimes can be very tough.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You are the spokesperson for Stacy`s family. Are they allowed to have contact with these kids? I mean, it is such a -- it must be a bizarre situation where you are related to this man who you suspect this man might be responsible for your relative`s disappearance but yet you still want to have nice, healthy, warm, loving contact with the kids.
BOSCO: We are trying not to cause too many waves right now considering the situation. So we are rather being low key with anything like that just to make sure we get through the situation rather calmly until things develop further. So we are not really trying to push to see the children until things start to move along a little bit more.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And Lauren Howard, psychotherapist, this impacts the children so many ways. You just heard it there, the relatives are not even pushing to see them because they don`t want to ruffle feathers.
LAUREN HOWARD, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Right. It`s one of those things like most things. If it ends well, it won`t be a problem. It will help the kids to understand a little bit about life. If it ends badly there is going to be an enormous amount of difficulties for them in terms of reconciling disingenuousness really in him.
The thing that strikes me the most about him, Jane, is any police officer knows that in a situation like this, the number one suspect is going to be him. I mean, he knows he would have to be that suspect. So instead of acting sort of arrogant and annoyed that he is suspicious, I would feel that if he were really innocent he would be more than happy to open his arms and say anything, come into my house, any way I can help you.
Because he knows he has to be. If he were on the other side of this he would be a suspect. And yet he is acting offended that he is a suspect. And that sort of is -- that is a disingenuous tack for him to take. That concerns me in terms of particularly what the teenagers are seeing.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: In fact, law enforcement experts describe him as peacocking and strutting around as if he knows nothing is going to happen to him. We shall see. We shall see. Tonight, let`s look at CNN Heroes.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Here we go.
RICK HODES, MOTHER TERESA`S MISSION: Ethiopia has about one doctor for every 40,000 people. There`s about 2,000 doctors for the country. A lot of people just don`t get to see a doctor or they don`t get to see a good doctor.
My mission on the planet is helping people nobody is interested in helping. That is the population we deal with at Mother Teresa`s. My name is Rick Hodes. I`m an American medical doctor. I have lived in Ethiopia. I`ve lived in Ethiopia for about 20 years.
I`ve worked as a volunteer doctor at Mother Teresa`s Mission taking care of sick destitutes. Especially working with heart disease, spine disease and cancer. Besides that I have turned my house into a bit of an orphanage and have 17 kids in the two houses I pay rent on.
My goal is to give them a future and have a ripple effect so this has a much wider impact on everything.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t think I would still be alive because of my back I just hated my life. When he told me I was going to have surgery he kind of just changed my life.
HODES: When you have kids who are sick and kids who are dying that is a very sad thing. At least I can give them a shot at life. If I get a kid with lymphoma I can give the chemotherapy and often they will survive. It`s great. And when I can send them back to his village and say, listen, I am happy to fund his education. Contact me every six months, every year and we`ll wire you some money. And then they have a future. This is a wonderful thing.
I feel like I`m really making an impact. Not on a huge population basis but I`m changing lives one by one, left and right and that`s what keeps me going.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell in for Nancy Grace. We are talking Stacy Peterson and her disappearance. The calls are lighting up. Let`s go to Laurice in Georgia. Your question, ma`am. Laurice, hello.
CALLER: Yes. I`m here.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Go for it. The clock is ticking, darling. What is your question?
CALLER: Dr. Baden has Kathleen Savio`s death a homicide. What if anything has been done with the information?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Excellent question. Let`s go to Mary Frances Bragiel in Chicago, reporter for WBBM News Radio 780. What has been done with this information that this famous pathologist concluded it was murder?
BRAGIEL: Don`t forget that he is an independent pathologist who was hired by another news organization to conduct this. The Will County state`s attorney, the coroner has conducted his own autopsy but those results have not been made public at this time.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Why not? Why is it taking the authorities so long to release this? Everybody is on pins and needles. The entire nation wants to know.
BRAGIEL: Right. I know. They have released very little information. In fact, we were all shocked when they sent out a press release about these two truckers claiming that they saw a man who resembles Drew Peterson. They have released very little information so it`s just a matter of time till we get it.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, we`ll have to wait and see. This story isn`t going anywhere. Is the circle tightening around Drew Peterson? It is very possible they were at his doorstep tonight.
And also tonight, let`s stop to remember Army Sergeant First Class James Doster, 38, from Pine Bluff, Arkansas. Killed in Iraq. An Army recruiter, he joined the military 17 years ago while studying at Hendricks College. He also served during Desert Storm, devoted to family, especially his two little girls. He leaves behind a grieving mom Billie (ph), brother Rob, widow Amanda and daughters six-year-old Catherine and three-year-old Grace. James Doster, an American hero.
We want to thank all of our guests here tonight for our insights and thanks to you at home for tracking these very important cases with us. A special happy birthday to one of the stars of THE NANCY GRACE SHOW, Cheryl. Happy birthday, Cheryl. And remember to visit Nancy`s baby blog and cnn.com/nancygrace.
We`re going to see you tomorrow night here at 8:00 sharp. It`s a date. Until then have a terrific and make it a safe evening.
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