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NANCY GRACE

Cleveland Mom Drowns 2 Daughters in Tub

Aired October 2, 2007 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight: Cleveland 911 answers a frantic call to find ages 4 and 2-year-old little sisters floating in the family tub. Prime suspect, their own mother, showing zero emotion as she is taken away in handcuffs. Police reveal the 22-year-old young mom drowned the girls in the tub, then telephones dad to say the girls are resting at peace. Tonight, the stunning 911 call and the aftermath. But why?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They`re gone. Their lives are over, 4-year-old Jonelle Cintron and 2-year-old Ceccies Hill. Jamie is the father of the two girls. This is Jamie at the scene, just moments after finding his two daughters drowned in the tub, this after getting a chilling call from the girl`s mother telling Cintron not to worry, the girls are at peace. The mother who made that call, Amber Hill, seen here in the back of a squad car, charged for the death of the two girls.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, more breaking developments in that murder mystery at sea. An American crew takes tourists from Arkansas and Florida out on a day cruise fishing, then their worst nightmare comes true. Just 60 miles off the Florida coast, hijack. Only two survivors found drifting on the high seas.

Tonight, the two survivors now named murder suspects. Tonight, we learn bullet and blood evidence inside the boat`s cabin may torpedo the suspects` hijack story. Were the two secretly headed to Cuba? And why? Could Kirby Archer be on the run from sex abuse charges on boys in Arkansas and Missouri?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Suspected blood found inside the cabin, when before, one of those two rescued men said that all four people were shot outside the cabin. They also found two bullet casings from inside the cabin. Also recovered from the life raft, a backpack containing a blowgun, darts, knives, cell phones and some leather workout gloves.

Zarabozo said three Cuban hijackers who he said came aboard the vessel and got in a shoving match with the captain. The captain was shot. His wife was shot after she became hysterical. Two other crew members were killed, as well. Both men are being held without bond.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. First, to Cleveland, where a young mom taken away in cuffs.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The unthinkable has happened at the Woodland Community Apartments inside unit H-6.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The mother of the children called him on the phone and stated that she drowned the children in the bathtub.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The mother, taken into custody immediately, is in the back seat of the squad car. She is 22-year-old Amber Hill. Neighbors knew she was stressed but had no idea it was this bad. After the drowning, Amber Hill called the girls` father and told him over the phone that her daughters were in a better place. He, fearing the worst, raced home, but it was too late.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The babies` father is in there going crazy, and the mother`s just sitting there.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is EMS. I`m at 7700 Woodland, apartment H- 6. Two children are drowned and they`re in full arrest. Two babies. They`re drowned.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The girls` father sobs uncontrollably in the back of another squad car, realizing he`ll never again see his daughters, 2- year-old Ceccies Hill and her older sister, 4-year-old Jonelle Cintron.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Ages 4 and 2, gone forever, the mom taken away in handcuffs, showing absolutely zero emotion.

Out to crime reporter with "The Cleveland Plain Dealer" joining us tonight, Gabriel Baird. Gabriel, tell me what happened.

GABRIEL BAIRD, "CLEVELAND PLAIN DEALER": Well, yesterday afternoon a little after noon, Amber Hill, who is 21 (SIC) years old, called Jamie Cintron at work, her -- her -- the children -- the father of her children. And when he got home, he found that his children were dead in the tub and that they had been drowned.

GRACE: What exactly did she say on the phone to the father? This is the biological father of both girls, correct?

BAIRD: It is the father of both girls. On the phone -- she called him at work and told him that the two children were resting in peace.

GRACE: And he tried to find out what that meant, but finally, just left and came home, right?

BAIRD: Yes, he did leave work and raced home.

GRACE: And then what happened?

BAIRD: Then he got there and he confronted or at least saw the girls` mother, and then, you know, went looking for the little girls and he found them in the bathtub.

GRACE: When police got there, what happened?

BAIRD: Well, when police got there, they arrested Amber Hill almost immediately. Jamie had told them, you know, about this call that he had gotten, and a couple of the neighbors outside had actually heard some screaming. And it`s not clear what they said to police, but they did make a statement that they used when they took to the prosecutors to get charges filed.

GRACE: Gabriel, take a listen to this 911 call.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

DISPATCHER 1: Hello?

DISPATCHER 2: C-com (ph) is still here.

DISPATCHER 1: Yes. I still didn`t understand what he said.

DISPATCHER 2: Did you get the address?

DISPATCHER 1: Yes, 7700 woodland, apartment (DELETED) I believe is what he said.

DISPATCHER 2: It took me about three times to hear it.

DISPATCHER 1: OK. Did he disconnect?

DISPATCHER 2: No.

DISPATCHER 1: OK. I got the ambulance and the fire department going, but other than that, I have no clue what`s going on.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE)

911 OPERATOR: 911. Do you need police, fire or an ambulance?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The police.

911 OPERATOR: OK. What`s going on, ma`am? Ma`am, stop (INAUDIBLE) What`s going on? Ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

911 OPERATOR: Ma`am, what`s going on?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The EMS is here.

911 OPERATOR: OK. What`s going on, though?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The babies` father is in there going crazy, and the mother is just sitting there.

911 OPERATOR: OK, but what happened? We got a call for somebody shot. Who got shot?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I mean, I don`t know. All I know is that the babies` grandmother came and she came to the door to use my phone. That`s all I know. And she said, Call 911, and that`s what I`m doing.

911 OPERATOR: OK. Well, I know -- EMS is there now?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, they`re here.

911 OPERATOR: OK. So the grandmother didn`t say who got shot?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. The EMS is on their way in their house right now.

911 OPERATOR: All right.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, as matter of fact, Gabriel Baird, nobody got shot. What is the mother charged with tonight?

BAIRD: The mother is charged with two counts of aggravated murder.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMIE CINTRON, FATHER: I knew something was wrong by the way she sounded, and she just hung up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did she say?

CINTRON: She said, I don`t know how to feel anymore. Then she said the girls are resting in peace, and she just hung up. At that point, I just rushed home so fast. Still can`t believe it -- can`t sleep, can`t eat. Keep thinking about the last time I saw them before I left for work, they was happy. I did not expect her to do that to them. She was fine when I left. They was up. They was, you know, having breakfast.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: A 4-year-old and 2-year-old little sisters found dead at home, and here`s the really scary part. There were no warning signals whatsoever. This woman apparently does not have any history of mental illness. Nothing. She just calls the bio dad at work and says the children are resting in peace. It`s all over. It`s too late for him to do anything about it.

Out to the lines. Aaron in North Carolina. Hi, Aaron.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just want to say we love your show, my family and I. And we want to know -- when we heard about this, it just kind of made our skin crawl because it sounds like the Andrea Yates case. Do you think this is setting up for an insanity plea?

GRACE: I think there will definitely be a mental defect plea. Let`s take a look at some murder moms we have grown to be familiar with. Of course, you just named one of the most famous. But then there is, of course, Susan Smith, convicted of the drowning deaths of her two sons. Then Andrea Yates, convicted of the drowning deaths of three of her five children. The others were not prosecuted.

This is Deanna Laney, commonly called the "rock mom," killed her young sons by beating them in the head with a rock. Dena Schlosser, she chopped up her child, her baby girl. Melissa Drexler pled guilty and then went out on the dance floor after killing her little newborn son and asked for Metallica`s "Unforgiven." And here`s Amy Grossberg, pictured with Brian Peterson. Their newborn son was found bludgeoned to death in a motel trashbin. So this is not an unheard of phenomenon, Aaron.

And I want to go to the lawyers. Joining us tonight, some real pros. First of all, joining us, George Parnham. Parnham is a well-known defense attorney who actually defended Andrea Yates. As you will recall, on her second trial, she did not get the death penalty. Also with us, Susan Moss, family law attorney, Kevin Mincey out of Philadelphia, Stacy Schneider out of New York.

First to you, Susan Moss. Weigh in.

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Narcissism. This narcissistic mother is guilty of murder. Apparently, she probably believes, If it`s all about me, there`s no room for these kiddies. She poured the water. She got the kids undressed. She put the kids in the tub. She took each child and put them under. Presumably, they fought. She did this for both kids. She`s guilty for murder from for both of them, and she needs to go to jail for life.

GRACE: George Parnham, weigh in. Your expertise in this area is considerable. Why the water? What is it with the water and the moms? You rarely hear of a dad drowning the child to death. It`s more of a mother thing. I don`t get it.

GEORGE PARNHAM, DEFENDED ANDREA YATES: I -- it`s simply a circumstance that is unexplainable. It`s obviously a tragedy in every instance. But I must correct you on one issue. In the second trial, the jury found Andrea Yates not guilty by reason of insanity because of the severity of her documented her mental illness.

GRACE: Well, what I said was she did not get the death penalty. Was I wrong about that?

PARNHAM: No, you`re correct.

GRACE: OK. Thanks, George.

PARNHAM: She wasn`t convicted, either.

GRACE: So long story short, she did not get the death penalty in the second trial.

PARNHAM: Well, you have to be convicted to get the death penalty, and she was acquitted.

GRACE: That`s absolutely correct. I was trying to give you a compliment, but if you want to argue with me about it, I`ll be glad to go along with that, too!

PARNHAM: Just want to set the record straight, Nancy.

GRACE: Well, OK. My point was she did not get the death penalty after drowning five innocent children, which I find highly unusual. In her first trial, the jury did not believe that she was insane.

Out to Stacy Schneider. This mother was taken away in cuffs. She showed absolutely no emotion. Will that come back to haunt her?

STACY SCHNEIDER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t think so, Nancy. I think that plays into an insanity defense. If she`s in a state, a catatonic state or she`s deficient of any emotion, that seems to be typical with someone who meets the parameters of legal insanity, which is suffering from a mental disease or defect and also cannot understand the difference between right and wrong.

GRACE: Kevin Mincey, do you agree there will be a mental defect defense?

KEVIN MINCEY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely. And I feel that her actions showed that she couldn`t even appreciate the criminality of what she`d just one.

GRACE: Oh, really? Then why did she call her husband and tell them the children were resting in peace?

MINCEY: Well, Andrea Yates did the same thing.

GRACE: No, that`s not a good excuse. That doesn`t make sense. You`re not going to be able to argue at trial, Andrea Yates did it and she got off, so this mom should, too. You got to have legal and factual grounds...

(CROSSTALK)

MINCEY: Well, Nancy, the facts are simply that you can tell by her reaction when she`s being led off in the car. You can tell by the way that the husband reacted...

GRACE: Really? She shows no emotion. What are you deriving from that, Kevin?

MINCEY: The fact that she showed no emotion just shows that her mind just wasn`t there.

GRACE: Shows me she didn`t give a darn.

MINCEY: Well, I mean, that`s why we have argument and that`s why we have the legal system.

GRACE: OK. Well, Kevin, I`m going to give you a few moments to give come up with a reason to support your theory that she`s already showing signs of mental defect because she knew to call her -- the bio dad, the husband, knew to call him at work, had a coherent conversation with him, gave a statement of some sort, gave police her name, her DOB, her address, wouldn`t say anything further without a defense attorney. I don`t know, I don`t call that crazy. Maybe crazy like a fox.

Out to the lines. Eva in New Jersey. Hi, Eva.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, first, let me say congratulations.

GRACE: Thank you, Eva. Thank you very much.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pregnant women do glow. You look fantastic.

GRACE: I actually saw them today on a sonogram, and this is the first time that they were not kicking each other.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Aw!

GRACE: They were head-to-head.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Aw!

GRACE: But go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m single, trying to get pregnant, and have spent so much money that I can`t understand when I hear these stories of these women killing their children. Did she have any sort of history, not just maybe violence or depression, you know, against children, but there`s nothing, like, no even police records, nothing?

GRACE: We have the perfect person to answer that tonight. Joining us is a very special guest. Let`s go to her now. The aunt of Amber Hill, Carolyn Hill, is with us. Ms. Hill, thank you for being with us.

CAROLYN HILL, AUNT: You`re welcome.

GRACE: Tell me about Amber. Were there any danger signs, any warning signals?

HILL: Not a one. Not one that we can think of.

GRACE: Did she ever have any mental illness history? Was she depressed? Did she have some type of -- I know one of the little girls was 2 years old. Did she have post-partum depression, anything?

HILL: She did stay depressed a lot. Considering the situation she was in, she was just depressed for a long time. A long time.

GRACE: When you say the situation -- I know she was studying to be a nursing assistant and she took her studies very seriously. The neighbors have told us that she had the girls dressed beautifully, their hair always done just beautifully whenever they would come out. The girls were always playing outside, drawing, chalk figures, reading to each other, playing. There was no sign of any problem whatsoever, Carolyn.

HILL: No, none.

GRACE: Have you spoken to her?

HILL: Not yet.

GRACE: Where were you when you learned of this tragedy?

HILL: I had just got home from work. And my mother`s girlfriend called. I answered the phone and she asked me what was my niece`s first name. I told her. She said, Is her last name Hill? And I said, Yes. She said, Turn to the news. They`re saying she just killed her kids. And my mom was sitting in the chair, and I turned to it and we got the tail end of it. We didn`t know what exactly had happened.

GRACE: Ms. Hill, I am so sorry. Hearing you, I can just imagine you turning on the news and seeing that. That just must have been awful. When was the last time you spoke to her?

HILL: It might have been a month or so ago.

GRACE: What were her spirits?

HILL: She -- she was blank a lot of times, you know? Just, you know, sometimes she would go off into a different conversation to what you`re talking about, and then she`d come back and continue the conversation.

GRACE: When you said the situation she was in, what do you mean by that?

HILL: She was in a very abusive relationship.

GRACE: I`ve looked up -- is it the husband? Were they legally married, or is he a boyfriend?

HILL: They were not married.

GRACE: The biological father, I saw, had two domestic incidents, and she was the alleged victim both times.

HILL: Yes.

GRACE: What happened?

HILL: One time she called us and told us that her boyfriend, Jamie, had jumped on her, attacked her, whatever. I know my mom had her come stay with us -- stay with her, rather, and I think she was with her for maybe four or five months, and she ended up going back. She had Jonelle then. And not too long after that, a couple years after that, it happened again. But there had been abuses in between those two.

GRACE: I know a judge ordered him to stay away from her for 18 months. And the next thing you know, they were back together, living together in this apartment.

HILL: Right.

GRACE: I know that on one occasion, he threatened to take the children away from her.

To Dr. Lillian Glass, psychologist and author. Dr. Glass, weigh in on this.

LILLIAN GLASS, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, it`s very interesting because Carolyn beyond (ph) gives us a lot of insight into what she was like ahead of time, what she was like before. Also, we have to understand what she said. She said to the police officer that now they`re at peace. She said, I don`t have to worry about this anymore. Was the husband abusing the children? You have to look at that, as well.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINTRON: She did that to them. She should pay for it. She had no reason to take their lives. They didn`t do nothing to deserve this. They were just innocent little girls.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: A 4-year-old and 2-year-old, little sisters, found drowned to death in the family tub. Tonight, the mom, after showing no emotion whatsoever, behind bars.

Out to the lines. Diane in Kansas. Hi, Diane.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Congratulations.

GRACE: Thank you, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Here`s my question. First of all, the domestic abuse was offered by, I think, the aunt. So I want to know -- I work at a maternity ward at a hospital. When they`re flagged with, you know, possible domestic abuse or expectant young mothers, the social work system gets right involved. They get them resources. They find out information about the home and how the babies are when they`re -- you know, what type of situation they`re going home. Was any of those resources utilized by this mom? Or what role did domestic abuse possibly, you know, fall with this?

GRACE: Diane, that is a great question. I didn`t realize that.

Let`s go out to the mom`s aunt. This is Carolyn Hill joining us tonight. She says no prior medical history, mental history. When those two incidents happened that we know of -- I know you`re saying that there were more, but these are two court-documented incidents of domestic violence -- did DFACS, Department of Family and Children`s Services, get involved on behalf of the children?

HILL: I don`t actually know if they did. But Amber did tell us that she had a social worker. Social worker regarding what, I don`t know.

GRACE: If she had a social worker -- we`ve poured through the records, Carolyn, and she was a great mother. There`s no incidence that we could find of family and children services coming out about the kids. So it had to be in relation to this domestic incident.

Out to Patty in Texas. Hi, Patty.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I guess it`s to be a hypothetical. If all these mothers and parents are harming their children and using the insanity defense, why does the law keep allowing them to get away with this? Why isn`t there a law that stops them from harming their children?

GRACE: Susan Moss, we`re between a rock and a hard spot on this one.

MOSS: Well, you are. But children need to come first. And if parents hurt children, then they need to suffer. I can say that she may have suffered from domestic abuse, but that is not a kiddy murder excuse. She needs to be punished and she needs to go to jail.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Those happy girls, all they wanted was love. That`s all I tried to give them, was love and attention, try to teach them. They loved Daddy. They loved Mommy. They loved everybody.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: 911 answers frantic phone calls to discover the two girls, ages 4 and 2, dead in the family tub, mom taken away in handcuffs. I want to go out to Dr. Gregory Davis. He is a medical examiner, a forensic pathologist, an expert in his field.

Question, it`s already been determined by the coroner there that this is a homicide. When you look at a body, Doctor, how do you determine in a drowning death if it`s an accidental drowning or a homicide?

DR. GREGORY DAVIS, MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, you have to correlate the findings between the autopsy itself, the physical evidence from the autopsy, along with the investigative reports. The autopsy alone is not going to give you that answer.

GRACE: If there were bruising or there was tracheal damage, wouldn`t that suggest a struggle?

DAVIS: It sure would. If there were bruising on certain parts of the body, if there were tracheal damage, if there was bruising on the neck, especially, you would have to wonder about a combination of strangulation, maybe of suffocation, along with the drowning.

GRACE: Dr. Davis, how long does it take for a human to drown?

DAVIS: It can take upwards of several minutes. It`s not an instantaneous phenomenon.

GRACE: So those children would have had to have been held under water for a period of time?

DAVIS: They certainly would.

GRACE: To George Parnham, in your defense of Andrea Yates, wasn`t there bruising on the bodies of some of the children, particularly the little baby, Mary?

GEORGE PARNHAM, ATTORNEY, ANDREA YATES: Yes, there was. I don`t necessarily single out Mary. I think all of the bodies did evidence bruising, Nancy.

GRACE: That`s a tough thing for a defense attorney to get over at trial. It shows the children struggled.

I want to also go out to Mike Brooks. Mike, I know the mom is on a suicide watch. What does that mean?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE: Well, Nancy, what that means is, where she`s being held, there`s a camera on her all the time. They`re watching her. They put her in a certain kind of outfit to make sure she can`t strangle herself or do any harm to herself, you know, because, again, her mental status right now, who knows what it`s going to be? It`s got to just be unbelievable knowing that you`ve killed your 2- and your 4-year-old child.

GRACE: Yes, well, I wish she had thought about that before she drowned them, Mike Brooks.

BROOKS: You and me both, Nancy.

GRACE: You know, woulda, coulda, shoulda. And, look, don`t get me wrong, do I feel sorry for her, if she`s been a victim of domestic abuse? Of course, I do. Of course, I do. But I don`t see any defense with the mom having all her problems as working, as being effective, when you murder your children. I just don`t see it, Mike.

BROOKS: No, I don`t either. But that`s one of the reasons they have her on suicide watch, because of her mental status right now, Nancy. And they`re making sure that she doesn`t do any harm to herself. And I`m glad of that, because I want to see her go to trial, also.

GRACE: Dr. Davis, what kind of trauma does the body undergo during drowning?

DAVIS: Well, when the water actually hits the wind pipe, oftentimes the wind pipe will close down and the vocal cords will close down, so oftentimes water will not even get into the lungs. A person would be very miserable, would be hungry for air, would be trying to breathe and could not. They would vomit at some point. And there would be a struggle, probably, of a minute to several minutes.

GRACE: Why do you vomit?

DAVIS: It`s just a reflex reaction to the actual trauma of drowning. It`s actually a very non-specific sign.

GRACE: To the lines, Sharon in Pennsylvania. Hi, Sharon.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. I`m your biggest fan.

GRACE: Thank you.

CALLER: And I just want to say, it must be so difficult for you to hear things about these stories about these children...

GRACE: It is.

CALLER: ... when you`re carrying twins.

GRACE: It really is. After wanting a family for so long, and then trying to, you know, think of a 2-year-old and a 4-year-old little girl gone like this, and so many people would give their arm to have them, and love them, and raise them, so, yes.

CALLER: Exactly. And, Nancy, I had a baby at the age of 51, and I am -- I just admire you like I admire myself. But my question is, the fact that the mother showed no emotion during her arrest, wouldn`t that be a defense for a defense attorney to use as insanity for her?

GRACE: Oh, yes, Sharon, it will be used that way. The prosecution, however, will portray her as cold-blooded. The defense will say that she was numb to all the domestic abuse she had survived. So you`re going to see that that is open to interpretation. And, Sharon, thank you for calling in.

Everybody, when we get back, two survivors in a murder mystery at sea now named prime suspects.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Authorities are now saying for the record they believe that the two men found from that life raft from the charter fishing boat, the Joe Cool, had something directly to do with the suspected murder of four missing crew members. Quote, "They are under investigation for murder," a federal prosecutor told a magistrate. The judge asked, "Your theory is they killed the four?" And the prosecutor said, "Yes, your honor." Both men are being held without bond.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Tonight, the so-called survivors of that mystery at sea have been named prime suspects in multiple murders. Just 60 miles off the Florida coast, it was supposed to just be a fishing day cruise. It turned into a crime scene.

To CNN national correspondent Susan Candiotti, Susan, I think a lot had to do with what was in that backpack. Explain.

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, this backpack was found in that life raft that came from the charter boat and inside the life raft. These two men, are they victims or are they killers? We don`t know. They haven`t been charged. But what they found inside the backpack, Nancy, is a receipt from a local gun store here for two magazines, gun magazines, which would contain ammo. We`ve had no mention, however, of the gun as yet, but we have some mention of some shell casings found aboard the boat.

GRACE: The casings were .9 millimeter, right?

CANDIOTTI: They were, .9 millimeter, according to the FBI, yes, that`s right. And two of the casings, there were three found aboard the boat. Two of the three were found inside the cabin, one outside the cabin. Also, suspected blood found inside the cabin. So we`ll wait for the tests on that.

GRACE: To Mike Brooks, that totally torpedoes the so-called survivor story?

BROOKS: Oh, absolutely, Nancy. I mean, these two guys -- what did they need a magazine for? What did they need two magazines for, you know, and a blow gun, darts, knives?

GRACE: First of all, explain a magazine, explain what a magazine is.

BROOKS: A magazine, Nancy -- and they said they believe it was a Glock that these alleged hijackers used. A magazine is what holds the ammunition that usually goes into the bottom, and then you go ahead and charge the weapon, and then you just keep pulling the trigger until the magazine goes empty.

So they`ve got three shell casings there on the scene. I`d also be anxious to see, Nancy, if this Coast Guard investigators or the FBI evidence response team who processed the boat, if they were able to get any partial fingerprints off of these shell casings that might belong to these two clowns, because, as you load the magazine, you have it push them down one on top of the other. And as it gets fuller, it gets kind of harder to do. So, usually, you`ll find in many cases like this, you`ll find some fingerprint evidence also on the shell casings.

GRACE: Well, another issue, to Randy Lantz with 610 WIOD, is that the survivors from this brutal and savage attack at sea stated that hijackers came onto the craft, that they shot the captain, then they shot the captain`s wife when she became hysterical, and then they shot two crew members when the crew members refused to throw the bodies overboard. This all happened on top. Now we`re learning that there are shell casings and blood in the cabin, and we`re also learning mostly it`s the young guy talking, Guillermo Zarabozo. He said, after all the shooting, after throwing all the people overboard, he took a nap for eight hours. Did you hear that, Randy Lantz?

RANDY LANTZ, REPORTER: I did hear that, Nancy. And it`s disturbing, just the details that came out last week, first off, that three Cuban men unknown boarded the boat, the Joe Cool, and killed the entire crew. I think what was interesting also today, as the two men appeared in court, the defense was arguing that there wasn`t enough to hold them in this case. And that`s when the prosecutors actually dropped a bomb and said, "Well, we do actually have more evidence. There was three shelling casings. There was blood also possibly inside the cabin. And Zarabozo, when the Coast Guard picked him up in the life raft, he reportedly was found with blow darts and a knife also in the raft." So it`s unfolding very quickly.

GRACE: Susan Candiotti joining us, CNN national correspondent, Susan, I understand that the knife in his backpack, in the backpack found in the life raft, one of them had a blade three to four inches long and blow darts.

CANDIOTTI: And blow darts, right.

GRACE: I only saw that on James Bond. Blow darts?

CANDIOTTI: Well, even the judge said, "A blow dart, what is that?" And the defense attorney said, "Well, you know, your honor, I don`t know, these young kids today, I don`t know what they use."

GRACE: Yeah, these crazy kids. Right. Susan Candiotti, why haven`t they been charged yet? As much as Guillermo Zarabozo is talking, certainly there have been inconsistencies.

CANDIOTTI: Well, the sense that we got from the prosecutors today is there is circumstantial evidence. There are no bodies, Nancy. There are no bodies. And there`s nothing directly linking them. Remember it`s suspected blood. It`s suspected or rather the casings are -- still trying to still trace, as Mike pointed out, for example, still looking for fingerprints.

These prosecutors only revealed as much as they had to, a preponderance of evidence, so that these men could be held as a potential flight risk. And what`s the evidence on that? The judge said, "Well, they chartered a boat out of the country." And a potential danger, the judge said, that`s obvious, you have circumstantial evidence here that four homicides took place aboard that boat.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Lisa in Kentucky. Hi, Lisa.

CALLER: Hello.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

CALLER: Well, my question this evening is satellite surveillance of the actual area where the boaters were at the time, actually any time that they would have been missing. I lost an identical twin and her husband on the waters in Costa Rica, and I feel like they just really needed to keep these guys locked up until they really can come to some type of closure, especially for the families.

GRACE: Now, are you asking, Lisa, was there satellite, were they being filmed? Was there satellite surveillance?

CALLER: Satellite surveillance, possibly.

GRACE: Good question.

Mike Brooks, that far off the coast, I doubt it, 60 miles?

BROOKS: You know, Nancy, a lot of times -- and I know we heard from the Coast Guard spokesperson that they had a P-3 Orion. You know, many times, during drug interdiction in this are they will have aircraft up. I`d be anxious to find out whether there were any aircraft up that particular day when this all happened to see if they did have any kind of satellite images or any kind of radar.

GRACE: You know what? Brooks, hold on a moment. You really think, if there is federal surveillance, that they`ll ever see it at trial. Because after prosecuting at a state level violent felonies for so many years, it turns out many times the feds on their own for some other investigation, such as a nationwide drug bust, they would be surveilling the same places as my crimes would happen. Would I ever get my mitts on the federal surveillance? No way. No way would they endanger one of their operations to help me prosecute, say, for instance, a triple homicide. No way. Not going to happen. If there is surveillance, they`re never going to hand it over.

BROOKS: I don`t know, Nancy. You know, they`re always looking for boats coming in and out of Cuba all the time. So, you know, there is that possibility -- and I`d be anxious to see if the Coast Guard did have any imagery like that, because if that`s the case, I mean, sometimes they just do regular surveillance just to look for any kind of activity coming out of Cuba and also for any kind of drug runners in that particular area.

GRACE: Right. That`s why I could see that there would be some type of surveillance for people leaving Cuba, for drug trafficking, specifically. I want it talk about Cuba for just a moment.

Back to Susan Candiotti. The theory is working right now that Kirby Archer, age 35, was on the run, that he wanted to go to Cuba, that he may have misled the crew to taking him to the Bahamas to Bimini. Instead, he wanted that vessel to take him to Cuba so he could avoid being extradited. We`ve got a treaty with the Bahamas; we do not have an extradition treaty with Fidel Castro. He would be safe from all these claims of molesting boys in Arkansas and Missouri; he would be safe from the claim that he robbed a Wal-Mart to the tune of $92,000; and he could live in Cuba forever off $50,000 bucks. Remember he stole that $92,000, allegedly.

CANDIOTTI: That certainly is a theory, but the defense tried to interject at the bond hearing today maintaining that Archer, they claim, did not know about the warrant that was outstanding for him when he left Arkansas. But he did know about it later and, evidently, didn`t contact authorities.

One other possible contradiction, we learned today that Zarabozo, the young man, apparently told authorities that he had been at a hotel with Archer about 10 days before or just the night before they made the trip and that some friends had come to visit them. But the prosecutor said that they interviewed the friends, and the friends denied it, and they also reviewed a hotel surveillance tape which showed no sign of the friends.

GRACE: Well, other than catching them in a lie, what probative value would that have, Susan?

CANDIOTTI: Well, I`m not a lawyer, I don`t know about that, other than to say...

GRACE: I can`t figure it out, either, but apparently both sides thought it was important because they both were talking about it in court. I think there`s something significant to it, but I don`t know what it is yet, just a piece of the puzzle, right?

CANDIOTTI: It`s one more -- there are a lot of pieces to the puzzle here. I mean, look, we`re still trying to find out, and if they know they haven`t told us yet, what Zarabozo or Archer, for that matter, said about, well, what did the hijackers look like? How did they approach the boat? Where`s their boat? What did they take from the hijack boat? Why were they there to steal? And why were these two lives spared?

GRACE: And, of course, unleashing the lawyers again, Susan Moss, Stacy Schneider, Kevin Mincey, and, of course, George Parnham still with us, to Susan Moss, question, hijack. That means you take the vessel or you take the car, that`s the point of a hijack. Where do those guys, the hijackers, come from? What, did a mermaid spit them out onto the boat? Where did they go to? Where did they come from? They`re gone.

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: They`re claiming that they were hijacked by pirates? Who, the Pirates of Penzance or maybe it was that Johnny Depp? It`s absolutely ridiculous. And the key and why this is so important concerning that hotel statement, it`s just another lie. Everything that is coming out of these people`s mouths are lies. And as the lies build up, they`re building up that circumstantial case to convict them for four counts of murder.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Heather. Heather, are you with me?

CALLER: Yes.

GRACE: Hi, dear, what`s your question?

CALLER: Hi. I love your show. And congratulations on your twins.

GRACE: Thank you, dear.

CALLER: Have they done polygraph tests on these two men?

GRACE: Oh, oh, Heather, how I wish! Very doubtful, right, Stacy?

STACY SCHNEIDER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, they generally don`t do that at this point in time.

GRACE: Well, they don`t agree to have it done. The defenses don`t want to have it done.

SCHNEIDER: They don`t agree, and there`s a lot of defense challenges to the validity of polygraph tests. And there have been people who have been known to cheat polygraph tests, and it`s just not something that comes up. What the prosecution really wants here is for these guys to flip on each other, gather enough statements, and one of them can be offered a deal and turn on the other and see what really went on.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Survivors turn into murder suspects. I want to go straight out to Dr. Gregory Davis, medical examiner. Dr. Davis, if the bodies of the four victims, and the whole family and crew wiped out, are found now in the water, can you get evidence from them?

DAVIS: You still can get evidence. Of course, with each passing day, there`s going to be less and less, primarily because of the possibility of decomposition in the warm waters off the coast of Florida, also because of predators in the sea. You`ve got sharks. You`ve got crustaceans who will actually feed off of a dead human or any other fish.

GRACE: So it`s unlikely at this juncture to get any evidentiary clues. Out to the lines, Dawn in Georgia. Hi, Dawn.

CALLER: Hi, how are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear, what`s your question?

CALLER: My question is, I think it`s a strange coincidence that, out of six people, there were four crew members and these two guys, that they`re the only ones that are alive.

GRACE: Right.

CALLER: I mean, just coincidentally the four crew members are gone and they`re still here.

GRACE: Kevin Mincey, it`s highly coincidentally, especially with one taking an eight-hour nap after the murders.

KEVIN MINCEY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yeah, well, that`s not exactly the best story to establish a defense, but, again, there`s no bodies and no forensic evidence to link it to them. I`m interested to see...

GRACE: You`re right about that, Kevin. No bodies. We may never be able to show a murder even happened.

Everyone, let`s stop to remember Army Sergeant First Class Matthew Blaskowski, 27, Levering, Michigan, second tour, receiving Silver Star and Purple Heart after being rescued saving another soldier. He leaves behind parents, Terry and Cheryl, widow, Daniela, and younger brother, Stan. Matthew Blaskowski, American hero.

Thank you to our guests, but most of all thank you to you for inviting us into your homes. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

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