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NANCY GRACE

Newborn Left on Washington Church Steps/Missing Montana 3-Year-Old`s Body Found in Septic Tank

Aired January 29, 2007 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. A 3-year-old Montana boy left beside the family car. Five minutes later, the dad comes back, the child vanished. After an intense three-day search, 3-year-old Loic Rogers found just 10 feet away from the car, deep inside an underground septic tank. Tonight, the search turns into a criminal investigation.
And tonight: Last week, photos reveal another 11-year-old boy missing since `91, possibly connected to alleged Missouri child kidnapper Michael Devlin. And tonight, there`s more, police now investigating a link between Devlin and yet another boy, 7-year-old Dalton Mesarchik, gone since 2003, last seen right in front of his own home, same MO as the others.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What if the prosecution (INAUDIBLE) case if your son gets on the stand?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`ll do it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`ll do it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`ll do it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shawn (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) cannot be allowed to do this to anyone else.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. First to Montana.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It wasn`t an above-ground tank, but it did have a lid on it that was above ground. And we`re still trying to determine just how he got in there. The cause of death is drowning, and the manner is still undetermined at this time, pending the outcome of our investigation.

I held the flashlight personally for the firemen who probed it. That septic tank is this particular shape. The opening is here. There`s no way that we could have possibly probed and found anything had the child been on the bottom or on the top on this end.

This is a tragedy. This truly is a tragedy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Before we take you to that story, we have just gotten breaking news about a newborn baby, alive, left outside a Mount Vernon, Washington, church during mass. The baby, about 2 days old, left on the steps outside the Immaculate Conception Catholic church during Spanish mass. It was just before mass ended.

Let`s go out right now live to reporter with 710 KIRO Newsradio Tim Haeck. What`s happening, Tim?

TIM HAECK, NEWSRADIO 710 KIRO: Good evening, Nancy. I just checked with the Mount Vernon Police Department a few minutes ago. They have not been able to locate the parents of this newborn baby. They`ve looked in the obvious places. They`ve checked the hospitals, the church rolls (ph) there, health care providers, and nobody seems to know who the mother and father of this child might be. So it`s been about 24 hours now, a little more than that, and the baby is OK, but the parents, we don`t know who they are.

GRACE: Question. Tell me about the baby. It`s a boy. Is it white, black, Hispanic? What do we know? What was he dressed in? What was his medical condition?

HAECK: We don`t know much about the racial make-up of the child. We do know it was a baby boy. It was about a day old when it was found. It was clothed. It had a little jumper, a onesie on. It was wrapped in a blanket. It was OK. And the baby is in a hospital and is doing fine, we`re told by the police department. So it was a healthy baby, apparently a full-term child, and for reasons unknown, just left on the steps of the church.

GRACE: With us is Tim Haeck, reporter with Newsradio 710 KIRO. We`re reporting live right now out of Washington. There`s breaking news regarding a baby boy that has been found outside a Catholic church there, swaddled in a baby blue blanket, wearing a blue jumper with a Nemo cartoon character on it. He was found, apparently having been placed there just before the end of mass.

Back out to Tim Haeck with 17 (ph) KIRO. Tim, why do they believe the baby was left there during mass?

HAECK: They`re not really sure. It was a Hispanic mass, if I understand it right. And they don`t have any evidence that the parents were members of the church, but the assumption is that the parents thought that the child would be found if it was left on a Sunday outside of church.

Now, we have a law here in Washington state that is only three or four years old, and it allows parents to leave a newborn child at a hospital, at a fire department, but not at a church. If a parent wants to leave a child, they have to contact somebody at the firehouse or somebody at the hospital. There`s no laws been broken if they do that. But in this case, the child was just simply left on the steps of the church, and they could be punished for this.

GRACE: Well, right now, police are saying they`re looking for the mom, to check into her health. But as you hear Tim Haeck with KIRO state, this is against the law in that jurisdiction.

Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, two veteran trial lawyers, Sandy Schiff, New York attorney, as well as Mickey Sherman. Out to you, Sandy. I don`t know. I agree with safe haven laws. But for instance, what if you have a non-English-speaking mom, and she doesn`t know what`s a safe haven or not. Sandy, you`ve seen plenty of hospitals in your and Mickey`s line of business. You`re not going to see a safe haven sign outside a hospital. Leaving a child at a mass, during mass, would probably to many mothers seem like a good idea if you want to abandon your baby.

SANDY SCHIFF, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, ignorance of the law is no defense, and we all know that, but there are mitigating circumstances. And of course, if the child was delivered at a hospital, there might even be some evidence in the way the umbilical cord was tied or finished, which would give police a better indication. And certainly, mothers are told these days that when you leave a hospital with a newborn, you can`t leave without a carseat. Certainly, they should be given language instructions so that they do understand the law...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Wait, wait, wait! Sandy, are you talking about giving birth in a hospital?

SCHIFF: If she gave birth in a hospital. There are also many midwives giving birth, and we don`t really know...

GRACE: OK.

SCHIFF: ... where the child was delivered right now.

GRACE: Exactly. Mickey, I`m talking about the safe haven laws that state you can drop the baby off at, for instance, a hospital, a fire station, where there are medical personnel.

We`re bringing you breaking news out of the state of Washington. A baby boy, about 24 to 48 hours old, found on the front steps of a church. He`s in good condition, apparently. Apparently, mass was ongoing at the time the child was left there.

I don`t think the safe haven laws are fair, Mickey, because police are looking for this mom right now and they`re not interested in her health.

MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I`ve got to believe that they`ll have some compassion. I mean, I doubt this baby was born in any hospital. And can you imagine the trauma and the panic that this young lady, and perhaps the father, were going through in order to do something as desperate as this?

I think it`s sad part is they didn`t have any family to rely on for guidance and judgment. And the fact that she left it at a place where it was very, very likely to be discovered very quickly -- I think that says a lot in her favor. But this is not a case for prosecution, it`s a case for compassion and education.

GRACE: Well, I am a little concerned about one thing. Back to you, Tim Haeck. What was the temperature at the time the baby was left on the doorstep?

HAECK: Good question. I`m not certain, but I can tell you that the temperature...

GRACE: Give me a ballpark!

HAECK: Near freezing, and possibly above freezing.

GRACE: Oh, for God in heaven!

HAECK: Above freezing, I would say, by 9:30 in the morning.

GRACE: OK, everything I just said about having mercy on the mom -- forget it, all right? You leave a baby out, wrapped in nothing but a blanket?

Out to the lines. Pennie in Florida. Hi, Pennie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: Good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Question. If the baby was swaddled, that means it was wrapped specifically in a certain way, which means the mother might have had kids before.

GRACE: What about it? Back to you, Tim Haeck. Now, I can see a photo of the little outfit the child had on, which could be a clue to people that see it. We`re waiting to get video in right now to show it to you, the child wrapped in a little blue onesie, a little jumper, with the character Nemo on the front of it. The wire definitely says swaddled, Tim. Swaddled. It says that.

HAECK: That`s right. But I don`t know...

GRACE: What is that?

HAECK: I don`t know how the child was wrapped. And I think the -- it might have been a Nemo blanket. I don`t want to be unclear to people, but it was -- it did have an outfit on and it did have a blanket around it. That`s all I know for sure.

GRACE: OK. Now, Tim, aren`t you the same reporter that just told me it was near freezing?

HAECK: Probably in the 30s.

GRACE: Would you go outside in a onesie and a "bankie"?

HAECK: Probably not a good idea.

GRACE: Not me, either.

But on the other hand -- to you, Dr. Robi Ludwig -- the mom leaves the baby, knowing there`s a mass inside.

ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Exactly.

GRACE: She knows people are just about to come out. What is it -- mass is an hour, so...

LUDWIG: Right. And I think this woman left her child at the church because the church is what she knows. So she probably had a sense that or had this hope that people inside the church would find her baby and take care of the baby in a way that she could not. So at least she had the wherewithal to know her limitations, and that`s a good thing. We know in many cases that does not happen, and there are dire circumstances as a result.

GRACE: OK, we`ll keep you abreast of the latest. Still with us is Newsradio 17 KIRO Tim Haeck, with the latest on the baby.

But right now, to another breaking story tonight, about a little boy, 3 years old, gone missing. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It wasn`t an above-ground tank, but it did have a lid on it that was above ground. And we`re still trying to determine just how he got in there. The cause of death is drowning, and the manner is still undetermined at this time, pending the outcome of our investigation.

I held the flashlight personally for the fireman who probed it. That septic tank is this particular shape. The opening is here. There`s no way that we could have possibly probed and found anything had the child been on the bottom or on the top on this end.

This is a tragedy. This truly is a tragedy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: A 3-year-old Montana boy left beside the family van just five minutes. The dad comes back out, the baby`s gone. After an intense three- day search, 3-year-old Loic Rogers was found just 10 feet away from the van, deep inside an underground septic tank. Tonight, the search has turned into a criminal investigation.

Out to Wendy Ostrom-Price. She`s the news director with KOFI. Hi, Wendy. What`s the latest?

WENDY OSTROM-PRICE, KOFI: Hi, Nancy. We don`t have any new news on top of what`s going on. They`re hoping to wrap up this investigation within the next couple of days and send the information they have to the prosecutor here to determine if criminal charges are warranted in this case.

GRACE: Well, to Pat Lalama, investigative reporter, it`s my understanding that a polygraph has been taken. Can you tell me about that, Pat?

PAT LALAMA, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Yes, Nancy, and that came from the FBI. He did, in fact -- the father -- meaning the father, Mark Rogers, took a polygraph and apparently passed it. But some questions seeping through the cracks, in that, you know, could the child have lifted the cover of this sewage hole? And how did the cover get back on top? We do know that the father of his ex-wife -- or soon to be ex-wife has said that there have been questions about his capability in taking care of all three of the children. And these are questions that are remaining unsolved at this point.

But the cops are -- like you`re saying, it`s a criminal investigation, but they say they have no reason to think it wasn`t an accident. So what does that mean?

GRACE: Joining us right now is a very special guest with us now, is the Flathead County sheriff, Mike Meehan. Sheriff, thank you for being with us. When did the search turn into a criminal investigation?

(CROSSTALK)

MIKE MEEHAN, FLATHEAD COUNTY SHERIFF: Can you hear me?

GRACE: Yes. Thank you. Go ahead.

MEEHAN: Very shortly after it started, we certainly started looking at the possibility that it may have been an abduction. So early on.

GRACE: Question. I understand a polygraph has been taken and passed by the father?

MEEHAN: A polygraph examination was given to the father. However, I do not have the results on that.

GRACE: What can you tell me about the top of the sewer? Why was it not screwed down?

MEEHAN: Well, apparently, someone had driven their car and accidentally hit the top and broke the rim around it about a month ago, and it was just never repaired.

GRACE: So was the lid up or down? It`s hard for me to imagine an open sewer in somebody`s yard.

MEEHAN: Well, upon our arrival, the search and rescue, my deputies, the local fire department, the lid was on. However, it was not secured. We did take an initial look within the tank. Of course, we couldn`t see anything. But later examination of the tank after we pumped it did reveal the young boy`s body.

GRACE: I keep seeing a shot of someone coming up out of an underground hole. I`m assuming that`s the sewer tank. So it`s right beside the house?

MEEHAN: It was about 10 feet from the house, yes.

GRACE: I`m sorry. I couldn`t hear you. Repeat?

MEEHAN: The actual opening to the septic tank was, oh, between 10 and 15 feet from the house, yes.

GRACE: How far away was it from the car?

MEEHAN: Probably 8 to 10 feet.

GRACE: OK. So is this like a lid that comes up on one side, or does the whole lid come off?

MEEHAN: No, this is a rectangular tank that sets approximately a foot underneath the ground. And on one end, it has an opening which is called a riser, too, which is probably about two feet across. And it comes up out of the ground, and then there`s a hard plastic cap that screws down onto the riser. It`s essentially an access hole, is what it is. And the riser itself had been damaged by an automobile accidentally and it tore the top off it. So the top could be placed over the hole. However, it was not secure.

GRACE: Now, the boy is 3 years old. It`s my understanding that Washington law is anyone under 6 has to be in a carseat. So the father -- I saw a little discrepancy in the story. At one point, it stated he took the boy out to -- was it a van?

MEEHAN: It was a van. However, he did not put the boy in the vehicle.

GRACE: Right. So was this in the evening, at night?

MEEHAN: It was about 7:00 o`clock in the evening. It was dark, yes.

GRACE: So his story is he takes the boy out and leaves him standing beside the van, I mean, and told the boy, a 3-year-old, to get in the van? Was he really expecting the boy to slide the van door open and get in and put himself in the carseat?

MEEHAN: Well, I can only assume. He told us that the boy was capable of doing that. He did return into the house to retrieve another sibling. And upon returning approximately two minutes later...

GRACE: Well, that`s interesting, sheriff. I mean, why would you take a baby, a 3-year-old, out to the van -- why did he even bother to walk him out there and say, Get in, and you walk back in? That doesn`t make sense to me. And then later -- the grandfather said he just told the boy to go out and get in the van, from inside.

MEEHAN: Well, I can only go by what he told our investigators, and he said that he did walk him out.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a tragedy. This truly is a tragedy. I have three sons myself, and believe me, I was out there last night and I can attest to the fact that there was about 20 agents and deputies out there, and there wasn`t a dry eye in the group.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. The search for 3-year-old Washington boy has now turned into a criminal investigation. That`s the Montana boy. Loic Rogers was left by the family van for just a few moments. When the dad came back, the dad says he was gone. Twenty minutes later, 911 was called.

Let`s go out to the lines. Marlene in Pennsylvania. Hi, Marlene.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I love your show. And thank you for taking my call.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, can`t they take fingerprints off of that septic tank lid?

GRACE: Good question. Let`s go out to Sheriff Mike Meehan. Of course, fingerprints can be taken. I don`t know what the weather conditions were, but even if it were raining, the oil residue from fingerprints would be there. But now, Sheriff, so many people have looked into it.

MEEHAN: We did take the lid, and also the raiser, and we have -- are in the process of processing it for fingerprints. We`re going to be doing some experiments with it, just to see how much weight it will take and different tests like that.

GRACE: When the top was -- when you first looked at the septic tank, was the top back on in place on top?

MEEHAN: Yes, it was.

GRACE: So do you think it`s possible the boy could have taken the top off, fallen in, and gotten the top exactly back on? That doesn`t even make sense!

MEEHAN: Highly unlikely.

GRACE: You know, that doesn`t make one lick of a sense.

To Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, forensic scientists. The cause of death, to my understanding, is by drowning. And how could the kid take the top off, get -- insert himself in, and the top land neatly back on? What happens when a body drowns?

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, quite frankly, I think it`s impossible, based upon what we know, that this little child would have opened the lid, fallen in and then replaced the lid. That`s first. Secondly, drowning is basically due to asphyxiation. And quite frankly, we know that this septic tank was basically filled almost to the top. Drowning is hard to diagnose upon autopsy, but there are some signs, including foaming from the mouth and the nasal passages and some fluid build-up in the lungs...

GRACE: But we`re not going to get that because he was still in the water.

KOBILINSKY: That`s right. Septic tanks are very dangerous because of the toxic gases. And even if there were no water, he would have succumbed in minutes to the toxic gases.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When we initially went out there, we were there to try to find this young boy, to try to find him alive, so we did not look in every little nook and cranny. We were looking for a 3-year-old, happy, smiling little boy that we wanted to bring home safely.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That didn`t happen. A 3-year-old boy was left by the family van in the evening hours. The father says he comes back five minutes later with the other children, the boy is gone. That search for Loic has now turned into a criminal investigation. The boy was found far down below the surface in the family`s septic tank.

Straight back out to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, forensic scientist. You were discussing the cause of death.

KOBILINSKY: Yes. It appears that the cause of death was drowning. But as I was getting at a few moments ago, even if the tank had been empty and he hadn`t drowned, he would have asphyxiated due to the gases that you find in septic tanks, like methane, carbon dioxide, ammonia, hydrogen sulfide, which comes from bacterial breakdown of waste products. He would have died in minutes.

GRACE: You mean, just breathing the air...

KOBILINSKY: That`s right.

GRACE: ... if he could even breathe, could have killed him.

Out to you, Mike Brooks, former D.C. cop, former FBI. What`s your take?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Something doesn`t add up, Nancy. Let`s look at this timeline again. OK. The sheriff, Meehan, he said that his father brought the boy out, stood him next to the van -- number one, that doesn`t make sense to me -- goes back inside. The sheriff said he came back out two minutes later. OK, if he came out two minutes later, does the boy...

GRACE: Why would you take one kid out and then go get the rest of the kids and leave him standing by the van?

BROOKS: That`s another question I was going to bring up, too, Nancy. But for two minutes -- if that boy knew where this septic tank was, if he`d been there, knew (INAUDIBLE) still is going to take longer than two minutes to go up, remove this top off of the septic tank, put himself in the septic tank, put the lid back on after he got in. Something doesn`t add up. Something doesn`t make sense here, Nancy.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE MEEHAN, FLATHEAD CO. SHERIFF: It wasn`t an above-ground tank, but it did have a lid on it that was above ground. And we`re still trying to determine just how he got in there.

The cause of death is drowning, and the manner is still undetermined at this time, pending the outcome of our investigation.

I held the flashlight personally for the fireman who probed it. That septic tank is this particular shape. The opening is here. As we took the top off, it was probed, and there was no way that we could have possibly probed and found anything had the child been on the bottom or on the top on this end. There was approximately only half of it that could have been properly checked at that time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You know, the law enforcement, the sheriffs there doing everything they could to find a 3-year-old missing boy. He was found, Loic Rogers, deep down inside a septic tank near the home where they had been visiting.

Out to that sheriff, you just heard speaking. He`s with us tonight. It is Sheriff Mike Meehan with the Flathead County Sheriff`s Office. Sheriff, I can`t see a picture of it, and I`m not getting a clear idea of the lid of the septic tank where this boy apparently drowned to death. Would it come totally off, or would it just swing open and then swing back down?

MEEHAN: No, it would come totally off, Nancy.

GRACE: Ah, that`s very significant.

MEEHAN: If you can picture the approximately plastic garbage can, say one of those 30-gallon garbage cans, that`s very similar to what the top looks like. And it`s about almost that big, too.

GRACE: How heavy is it, Sheriff?

MEEHAN: I would say between -- no more than three pounds.

GRACE: So it`s fairly light.

MEEHAN: It was light. And it`s held on by...

GRACE: That was moved by a 3-year-old? But no screws, because it had been hit in an accident. But, Sheriff, could a 3-year-old find it, open it, get in? I mean, is there a foothold in there once he got in? How could he put the lid back on?

MEEHAN: I think it`s extremely highly unlikely that he could put the lid back on, and that`s why we`re investigating all of the possibilities, and we`re going to run tests. We did take the riser and the lid, and we placed it into evidence to process it. And I think it`s highly, highly unlikely.

GRACE: Sheriff, was there a custody battle going on between the dad and mom?

MEEHAN: I understand that there is, yes.

GRACE: Back out to you, Wendy Ostrom-Price, she`s joining us, KOFI Radio News director. We were told by the paternal grandfather that the dad in this case had passed a polygraph. Any info on that?

WENDY OSTROM-PRICE, NEWS DIRECTOR, KOFI RADIO: No, the FBI is not releasing their results of the polygraph test.

GRACE: Now, what else can you tell us about the search for the boy, Wendy? What was the dad doing during the search?

OSTROM-PRICE: The dad, I think, was searching, rounding up people he knew. They were printing posters immediately, because, you know, from the get-go, they didn`t know if the child had wandered off or was abducted.

GRACE: Wendy Ostrom-Price is with us. She broke the story to start with regarding this little boy. Was it snowing that night, Wendy?

OSTROM-PRICE: It was not snowing, but it was very foggy and very cold.

GRACE: Now, the dad says he left the boy by the van for how long?

OSTROM-PRICE: I`ve heard anywhere from 30 seconds to two minutes.

GRACE: OK, 30 seconds doesn`t make sense, to leave it -- what`s the story, Wendy? Why would he take the boy out to the van and leave him standing there and say, "Get in," and then go back inside? I mean, what`s the purpose of walking him out?

OSTROM-PRICE: I can`t speak for him, of course, but he said that this was a smart boy. He said he was not a boy that tended to wander off and that this was something that they did.

GRACE: Wendy, what was the dad doing in the 20 minutes it took him to call 911?

OSTROM-PRICE: He told the authorities that he was searching around the house. And he also called the boy`s mother, and some family members searched before calling.

GRACE: OK. Wait a minute, where was the mom?

OSTROM-PRICE: The mother told me that she was getting ready to go play some pool when she got the call from him and that they came over and they all started looking.

GRACE: How far away was the mom when the dad called? Where`s that...

OSTROM-PRICE: I`m not sure how far away she was. I think he reached her on his cell phone.

GRACE: Because that`s interesting. He told her to start looking for the boy?

OSTROM-PRICE: He told her that he was missing. And they all came over, she and her fiance, and I think some other family members.

GRACE: OK. Pat Lalama, investigative reporter, what else can you tell us about it?

PAT LALAMA, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: Well, what`s interesting about the custody issue is that the mother, to this very day, is saying that her estranged husband wouldn`t do anything to harm the children. But we are finding out that letters were written in November stating that they didn`t think that it was a fit environment, that she was particularly concerned about this house where he was that night for dinner, belonging to a friend, reportedly a girlfriend, and that acts as a daycare center in the day, but she had a lot of issues with it. So there has been concerns.

GRACE: What kind of issues?

LALAMA: Well, it wasn`t clear. She just was concerned because of the fact that, you know, it was a daycare center in the day. Who knows? Maybe it was just because it was a girlfriend and she had some sort of jealousy issue. It`s unclear. But the woman who lives in that house...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Or maybe, Pat, there were safety concerns.

LALAMA: Absolutely.

GRACE: I mean, doesn`t the wife have a -- the biological mom has a fiance? She`s about to have a baby. I hardly think jealousy is rearing its ugly head.

LALAMA: Yes. And you know what else is odd, Nancy? We know that historically courts tend to give custody to the mother until these things are sorted out. It`s the father who has the custody while this is being sorted out.

GRACE: Back out to you, Mike Brooks, the facts that were disturbing you?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE: I`ll tell you what, Nancy, the whole timeline, number one. Number two, two minutes, that just really bugs me.

Now, you talk about evidence, the sheriff, depending on what the material was that that lid was made of, you might be able to get some fingerprints off of it, you may not. But looking at that riser that he was talking about, that looks like there`s some smooth surfaces on that, so hopefully they`ll be able to get some forensic evidence off of that, Nancy.

But the other thing is, too, you know, soil samples, what kind of soil is around the septic tank compared to the rest of the yard? You know, were the father`s shoes taken? Was there any other evidence taken from anyone else who was in that house that evening?

But going back to the custody issues you were talking about with Pat, you know, you always have to make sure that you clear the people who are closest to the child during a disappearance. And secondly, when you have a custody battle such as this, you have to make sure that the mother`s not involved at all either.

GRACE: To Dr. Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist and author of "`Til Death Do Us Part." Now, the father says he`s only inside under a minute. When you`re under pressure, how good is your sense of time?

DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes, I mean, that`s the part of the story that I don`t buy. I might buy that he was overwhelmed. I might buy that the kid was smart. It could be abuse. We don`t know. But I don`t know if it was a minute. And I don`t know if he really thinks it was a minute. But if you`re under trauma and duress, you can`t get a sense of time.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Emma in California, hi, Emma.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. I love and never miss your show.

GRACE: Thank you.

CALLER: My question is, on a cold and foggy night, why would a father leave a little 3-year-old baby boy outside for any length of time?

GRACE: Good question, Sandy Schiff. What about it?

SANDRA RUTH SCHIFF, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: ... they were not cooperative. Maybe he had his hands full with three children that weren`t cooperative getting in the car, and they were still playing or not getting ready, trying to get them in the car. And he didn`t think, and he didn`t use his head, and he didn`t use good judgment.

GRACE: Mickey, you want to weigh in?

MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: ... look for Indians behind every rock. And I guess -- or Native Americans, I guess, to be more correct. I mean, this is obviously an accident. Nobody is wrong. Nobody`s a bad person.

The evidence, according to the sheriff, is that the top of the sewer, of the septic tank was not on. Obviously the child, in 30 seconds, in 10 seconds, went 10 feet away, fell in, and the workers, the searchers didn`t see him. And one of the searchers obviously put the septic top back on. They didn`t want to smell the septic stuff. It`s an accident.

GRACE: Sounds like somebody`s rewriting history. But you know what? Mickey, that`s your job. Mickey Sherman and Sandy Schiff here.

Very quickly, let`s go to tonight`s "Case Alert." Tour bus belonging to country music star Crystal Gayle hijacked by an escapee found, good condition, Daytona Beach. Christopher Daniel Gay, arrested Friday, found watching a race at Daytona International Speedway. That`s the way to go.

Gay earned the nickname "Little Houdini" after making off with a Wal- Mart 18-wheeler and a luxury tour bus. He went through six states with police trailing. Amazing, not a single person harmed. Gay broke out and ran, desperate to see his mother in the last stages of cancer. Crystal Gayle is of a mind to forgive, and I agree. People, let this guy go see his mom.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CRYSTAL GAYLE, COUNTRY SINGER: My heart goes out to his mother. I really feel for his whole family. I have children of my own. I want them safe; I want them protected. And I feel that for him, too. I want everyone to be safe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you thought about the prospect of Shawn having to go to court and testify against him?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, we have. And it`s something that I`m sure Shawn isn`t wanting to do. It`s something that I really don`t want to have to put Shawn through that again. You know, he lived it for four and a half years. Why make him relive it?

One thing I would like to say to him is if he had any decency in his body, he would do the right thing and not make these boys go through this again.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s obvious that there was something, some way he was manipulated to where he thought that that wasn`t an option. You know, he was 11 years old when he was taken. He was very young, very impressionable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Tonight, more news on the Michael Devlin case. You all know his name by now, the 41-year-old pizza parlor manager, now behind bars in the kidnaps of two young Missouri boys, Shawn Hornbeck, 11 years old at the time, and Ben Ownby. Miracle in Missouri: both of them recovered Friday, January 12th.

But tonight, questions swirling. Has Devlin been linked to other child victims? Out to Melanie Streeper with 550 KTRS Radio. Welcome back, Melanie. What can you tell us?

MELANIE STREEPER, KTRS RADIO: Thank you, Nancy. Well, I tell you what, shortly after this happened, the recovery of these two little boys, a task force was formed to investigate other cases, cold cases in the area, and, yes, there are lots of cases in and around the Missouri and Illinois area.

One in particular, Dalton Mesarchik, they are looking into this little boy who was actually murdered back in 2003. Seven-year-old Dalton was taken away from his home. He lived in Streator, Illinois.

GRACE: Let me ask you a couple of questions. Dalton was bludgeoned to death with a very heavy instrument. And one of these can -- this is called a drilling hammer. But it`s my understanding, with a weapon that can only have been purchased at K-Mart?

STREEPER: That is correct, Nancy. This little boy was hit repeatedly with this hammer, and they said that they can only be purchased...

GRACE: Oh, well, I`m just telling you right now, a man did it. These things are heavy. And I`m amazed, Melanie, that something of this nature, they found this based on an anonymous tip. They connected it up as the murder weapon of 7-year-old Dalton Mesarchik, and they can`t find the killer? They`ve got the weapon. There`s no DNA. Help me out, Melanie.

STREEPER: Yes, that`s absolutely right. I mean, this little boy was actually found in the Vermillion River. They just found him the day after he went missing. And so, yes, he was found by a fisherman, in fact, and they did actually recover that murder weapon shortly thereafter.

GRACE: What can you tell me about the anonymous tip? Man or woman?

STREEPER: That information we do not have, Nancy.

GRACE: Was he assaulted?

STREEPER: As far as sexually assaulted? Yes, I do not have that information.

GRACE: Was he clothed?

STREEPER: I do not have that, as well.

GRACE: I understand a lot of the -- this is an ongoing investigation, Melanie, and those documents are typically kept private. They`re not -- ongoing investigation is not subject to FOIA or Freedom of Information Act. You can`t just go down there and get it, like you normally get all the court documents for us.

Melanie, what else can you tell us about the death of Dalton Mesarchik?

STREEPER: Well, he was actually in front of his home, simply, so innocently, waiting for a church van to pick him up and take him to a Bible class. And then he simply went missing. He vanished.

And then, after a search, you know, he was discovered the next day by this fisherman in this river. And, you know, such a tragic end for this little boy. And, you know, just the fact that he was bludgeoned, you know, it`s just -- it`s such a tragic story.

GRACE: Question: Dalton is 7 years old?

STREEPER: Yes.

GRACE: Have his parents spoken?

STREEPER: We have not heard from the parents. I do know, in Livingston County where this all took place, the sheriff there is saying that they could, in fact, look into Michael Devlin to see if there could be some connection, maybe if he had some ties to that area. It`s a couple hundred miles north of St. Louis.

GRACE: Joining us right now, although we have not heard them speak in the past, is a very special guest with us tonight. Dalton`s mother is joining us, Michelle Mesarchik.

Ma`am, thank you for being with us.

MICHELLE MESARCHIK, MOTHER OF MURDER VICTIM: Thanks for having me, Nancy.

GRACE: Ma`am, so many of us lawyers, trial lawyers, we have a forensic scientist with us tonight, cops, we talk about cases, and we talk about the evidence, because we`re learning about it. And I`m sorry for any pain it causes you when you hear us talking about these circumstances of the death, and -- we really are.

When you first learned that Shawn Hornbeck and Ben Ownby had been found, what did you think?

MESARCHIK: I just thought that was the greatest thing in the world, because I followed Shawn`s case since day one. And then after Dalton was murdered, I continued to follow Shawn`s case, because I always wondered if there could be a connection, you know, since he was a boy, and similar in size. Different age, but Dalton was 4`10" and 85 pounds. He was big for his age. And, you know, being one state away, you know, that was the closest case I could find.

GRACE: It`s a state away, but isn`t it about a three-hour drive away?

MESARCHIK: Yes, about four hours, just down from St. Louis. So, yes, it`s pretty much a straight shot up.

GRACE: Yes. Do you recall the day Dalton went missing?

MESARCHIK: Yes.

GRACE: What happened?

MESARCHIK: You know, Nancy, it`s just -- he was back in the house. He wasn`t going to go, you know? The van didn`t show up. And my daughter had called the church from her girlfriend`s house. And they knew to pick Dalton up there.

And we were told the van was still coming at quarter after 7:00. And my daughter walked in, and the first thing she said is, "Where`s Dalton?" And we called the church. We thought maybe that they had picked him up and forgot to pick up the other kids. And they said, "No, we don`t have him." And we started searching right then.

GRACE: When Dalton was found, was he clothed?

MESARCHIK: I really don`t think I can comment on that.

GRACE: OK. OK.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... police department received a cell phone call reporting that Dalton`s body had been discovered in the Vermillion River at the location over here to our right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re keeping an open mind that it could be anything. So we`re following any leads we get.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: This little boy, Dalton Mesarchik, went missing 2003. He was killed, 7 years old. His mom is with us tonight, special guest, Michelle Mesarchik.

Ms. Mesarchik, at the time, what type of leads did police have?

MESARCHIK: About the only thing we had to go on in the beginning is we had tracking dogs that followed his scent from my front door out to the street. So we did know he had gotten in a vehicle.

GRACE: Ms. Mesarchik, tonight, what is your message?

MESARCHIK: Just, people, watch your children. You know, it`s just not the same world that we grew up in. And your children have to know, even if there`s people that they think they know, you can`t always trust the people that you do know. It`s not just the strangers. It`s just not a safe world for our kids anymore.

GRACE: Ms. Mesarchik, does it get any easier as the time passes for you?

MESARCHIK: No. In fact, Christmas was the worst it`s been, you know, because it just -- it just keeps wearing on you, because you stopped the day this happens to your child. And in my brain, I`m still March 26, 2003, because there`s been nothing resolved, you know?

I have my son, which a lot of people don`t get their children back. They never get their children back. I do know where my son is. I have my son. I just want to know who did this so they can`t ever do it again.

GRACE: With us is Michelle Mesarchik, the mother of Dalton. Ms. Mesarchik, to you especially, and our other guests, thank you.

MESARCHIK: Thanks, Nancy.

GRACE: NANCY GRACE signing off. See you tomorrow night. Good night, friend.

END

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