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NANCY GRACE

Client Makes Public Accusations About Possible Involvement in Wife`s Murder

Aired January 17, 2006 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, high-profile criminal defense attorney Daniel Horowitz. Well, first Daniel suffered the brutal murder of his wife, Pamela Vitale. Well, now he`s been thrown off as lead defense attorney in the Susan Polk murder case. Polk now making accusations that Horowitz killed his own wife.
Plus, breaking news tonight. First-degree murder charges handed down on 38-year-old Ben Fawley in the murder mystery surrounding 17-year-old Virginia Commonwealth University freshman Taylor Behl. Remember Taylor? Her body found buried in a shallow grave just one month after she vanished off campus.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace.

I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

Tonight, breaking news in the Taylor Behl case out of Richmond, Virginia. Thirty-eight-year-old Ben Fawley indicted, first-degree murder charges in the death of 17-year-old Virginia Commonwealth freshman Taylor Behl. Behl disappeared just days into the freshman fall semester.

Plus, lots of nervous politicians in Washington. Powerhouse lobbyist Jack Abramoff at the center of a huge corruption investigation.

But first tonight, high-profile criminal defense attorney Daniel Horowitz, remember his beautiful wife Pamela Vitale? She was murdered in their California home. Well, now Daniel faces a new battle. His client, Susan Polk, on trial for her husband`s murder, wants Horowitz booted off the case and is making horrible and very public accusations that Daniel is involved in his wife`s murder.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SUSAN POLK, WANTS TO FIRE DANIEL HOROWITZ: Essentially, there`s been a complete breakdown in communication between me and Mrs. Horowitz which has increased since the death of his wife, Pamela. I could see how certain statements that Dan has made to me could potentially be used in the defense of Mr. Dyleski, who is charged with the murder of Dan`s wife.

In the absence of a confession from Mr. Dyleski, I will continue to have doubts as to whether Mr. Dyleski is guilty and whether -- whether Dan Horowitz is innocent or not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You know what? Stunning. Incredible accusations like that shot out like a bullet.

To Jim Moret, chief correspondent with "Inside Edition."

Jim Moret, she better have some backup for that. That is slander.

JIM MORET, CHIEF CORRESPONDENT, "INSIDE EDITION": Well, not only that, this interview is really dramatically different from when I talked to her, and that was right after Pamela Vitale`s body was discovered. I talked to her a couple of times in jail, and at that time she was concerned.

You see here this is one of the interviews I had with her. She was concerned that it was her case that was responsible for Pamela Vitale`s murder.

We`ve seen this woman. I frankly don`t even know what to the think. She fired three other attorneys before. She represented herself before.

Perhaps she`s nervous going into the trial, but I agree with you, these are horrible, slanderous statements. You and I were up there in northern California during this horrendous crime, and we spent time with Daniel, you spent a great deal of time with him, you toured the house.

The police have totally exonerated him. He is not a suspect. The suspect is in custody.

Daniel Horowitz, by all accounts, had nothing to do with his wife`s murder. So to suggest such a thing is just horrific. And it`s based on that that she wants to fire him as her attorney.

GRACE: What is this, just another way to get yet another delay, Jim Moret? Because as you know, every day you haven`t been convicted is a day your innocent. Another day, just one more day of innocence. And by getting rid of a string of lawyers, she has gotten one delay after the next. But never has she stooped this low.

MORET: Well, when you talk about a delay, you know, this crime that she is accused of committing, murdering her husband, was in October of 2002. We`re in 2006 right now.

So if you`re talking about getting delays and extending this time even longer before a conviction, well, she`s obviously been very successful. But, you know, the judge is going to have to make the determination of whether or not to relieve the counsel on this case because we`re still now on the eve of yet another trial for her.

She was in trial when Daniel`s wife was brutally murdered, and that -- that murder caused a mistrial in her case. But there is to be a trial in this case, and she really needs effective counsel.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POLK: Essentially, there`s been a complete breakdown in communication between me and Mr. Horowitz which has increased since the death of his wife, Pamela.

Aside from that issue of possibly being a witness in the defense of Scott Dyleski, I have other issues with Dan`s representation, representation of me which I think that anybody who was aware of them would agree that their representation should end.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And that`s not all, everybody. Don`t think Daniel Horowitz is the only one feeling alone tonight. P.S., he`s joining us in about 30 seconds.

Elly (ph), who else does Polk want thrown off her case?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She also wants the judge, Laurel Brady, off the case, as well as all the judges in Contra Costa County to recuse themselves from this case.

GRACE: OK. So she wants Daniel Horowitz off the case because she thinks he murdered his wife, and all the judges off the case in the entire Contra Costa County.

OK. I am hearing in my ear we are now being joined by Daniel Horowitz.

Hello, friend.

DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: Daniel, response?

HOROWITZ: Nancy, it`s painful to hear these things said about Pamela, but, you know what? In the scheme of things, what has happened to me and what has happened to my life is so enormous that in some ways I just have to sit back and say, I don`t know, what is she feeling? What makes her lash out like this?

And I think the answer is that she`s a scared human being. She`s hurt. And this is her way of dealing with it, because, Nancy, if I can`t find compassion for her, then I`ll just be turning what`s going on into a way to make myself angry and hateful. And that`s wrong. I just know deep down know that I can`t respond that way.

GRACE: Daniel, you`re certainly a better person than me. I have always given you that much, from day one.

But Daniel, not only is she throwing you off the case -- that`s one thing -- you`re number four in a long line of fine trial lawyers she`s thrown off a case. But to accuse you of murdering Pamela?

HOROWITZ: It`s a very harsh statement. She doesn`t...

GRACE: Harsh?

HOROWITZ: She hasn`t even spoken to me about Pamela. So I can only take it in the context that she made it in. She`s saying this from her own institutional cell looking at the bars or looking at the doors, frightened about what`s going to happen to her. And I just have to say...

GRACE: But Daniel, she says that you made comments to her that suggested you had something to do with Pamela`s death and that Vitale (sic) is going to walk. Excuse me, that her perpetrator is going to walk.

HOROWITZ: I know, but realistically, we all know and I`m just telling you now, I did not talk to Susan Polk or any client about Pamela. I mean, it`s none of her business.

And it does -- I mean, her putting herself into my business or my personal life is not comfortable. But as defense attorneys, Nancy, you know this, this happens to us a lot. But it doesn`t usually happen in such a public way.

GRACE: Well, all I remember is this, Daniel, when I was there with you following Pamela`s murder, you kept -- I don`t even know if you remember this or if you can recollect this, but you kept talking about, "What am I going to do about the Polk case? I`ve got to get back to work on the Polk case. What am I going to do? I can`t let her down."

This was right after Pamela`s murder. You and I are had just come out of the house. And you were concerned about your duty as a defense lawyer.

Do you even remember that?

HOROWITZ: Well, what I remember, really, Nancy, is your support. And in my cell phone right here, it comes up, "Our Angel." That`s your name. When you call, that`s what comes up.

I don`t remember the things about duty and keeping my life together. But I do remember talking to my kids, Pamela`s kids, my kids, and deciding I had to finish the Polk case. I had to do it.

GRACE: I remember that.

Right now, a special guest is joining us for the first time. Susan Polk`s mom is speaking out. Her name is Helen Bolling, and she is joining us from San Diego, California.

Ms. Bolling, thank you for being with us.

HELEN BOLLING, SUSAN POLK`S MOTHER: You`re very welcome. Thank you for having me.

GRACE: Are you in touch with Susan Polk, your daughter?

BOLLING: No, the communication is very bad. You know, that`s a long story in itself.

GRACE: Right. I know it`s hard because when she`s incarcerated, the only way to call out -- they have very limited time on the phone for personal calls.

BOLLING: Absolutely. And it`s very expensive.

GRACE: Then -- yes, very expensive. It`s a collect call.

BOLLING: Right.

GRACE: It`s very difficult. But especially just getting to the phone if it`s not their lawyer.

BOLLING: Right.

GRACE: And how far away do you live from the jail?

BOLLING: Well, I`m in San Diego, you know.

GRACE: So that`s several hours.

BOLLING: Yes.

GRACE: Question. Do you regret that Susan Polk ever even met her husband, Felix?

BOLLING: Oh, god, it was the biggest mistake I`ve ever -- I mean, you know, she was just a little kid. She was maybe 14 years old.

And she had been referred to Felix Polk as a possible psychologist to assist her. She was recommended by the county psychologist in Contra Costa County, Concord, California.

GRACE: Right.

BOLLING: And we went down, Susan and I, to meet him, and Susan normally did not take to someone so quickly, but she did to Felix. And I was elated.

GRACE: Why did you say it`s the worse thing you ever did?

BOLLING: Oh, well, I mean...

GRACE: I mean, what did you have to do with it?

BOLLING: ... hindsight is 20/20. I took Susan to Felix Polk`s for counseling.

GRACE: Oh, I see. Mrs. Bolling, I`ve got a question for you about these most recent developments. This is, I think, the third or fourth lawyer your daughter has kicked off the case.

BOLLING: Yes.

GRACE: What is wrong with her?

BOLLING: It`s shameful. Oh, darling, you know, it is -- Felix had such control of this young woman. She never had a womanhood, you know. And I understand he would badmouth me about -- to Susan and even the grandchildren.

GRACE: Probably to isolate them away from you and your influence.

BOLLING: That`s right. That`s exactly right.

GRACE: That`s a very common, common thing with controlling spouses.

BOLLING: Exactly right.

GRACE: But I`m concerned today about her publicly stating that my colleague Daniel Horowitz had something to do with the murder of his wife. Remember, at the beginning, everyone was saying that it simply has not been borne out by the facts.

BOLLING: Absolutely.

GRACE: And your daughter, I mean, he tried so hard to help her.

BOLLING: Of course. Well, I`ve done my very best. I`ve counseled all the people that I respect, and all of them have come down and said, look it, as intelligent as she is and as smart as she is, it`s the worse thing for her to go into court without a lawyer. And I`ve tried to convince Susan that sometimes in life we`re given the choice of, you know, that we have to make.

GRACE: Well, have you spoken to her about these accusations she`s made against Daniel?

BOLLING: No, I haven`t had a real heavy-duty chance to talk to her, but I know I met Dan Horowitz, and I know him. And he is one of the most compassionate human beings I`ve ever met in my whole life.

GRACE: Then why would your daughter do this to him? Not just throw him off the case, that`s one thing.

BOLLING: OK. Well, Nancy...

GRACE: But then to claim he murdered his own wife?

BOLLING: Yes. Yes. Nancy -- this is Nancy Grace, right? Is this right?

GRACE: Yes.

BOLLING: None of us have gone through the experience that Susan has to be able to respond -- I mean, certainly, we know -- you and I know that it`s not right or possible that Dan was involved in the case of his wife. I mean, I met Ms. Vitale, which was really not too long before she -- this terrible thing happened to her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POLK: And I hope that people will not be prejudiced by the charge that`s been brought and that they will listen with an open mind to what I have to say.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOROWITZ: She has a defense, because if she exploded in the rage of a woman who had been held almost in a cult, the cult of Felix Polk for all of those years, having her youth robbed, then that anger exploded in killing her with all of those stab wounds, which is a sign of anger, is justifiable and understandable.

You have a woman who was essentially raped at age 15, 16, 17, 18 by her own psychiatrist because he used his position of trust and power. Instead of helping her, he used it to form a relationship.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And there you see the beginnings of Daniel Horowitz` defense for Susan Polk. Susan Polk facing trial now for well over two years after the murder of her husband. Nearly 30 stab wounds.

Let me see here. I pulled out of my pocket Constitution, Jim Moret, I see Amendment Six, yes, you`ve got the right to a lawyer, but it doesn`t say you have the right to four lawyers. And it doesn`t say you have the right to when it gets trial time you fire the lawyer every time so there`s another delay.

MORET: Well, you`re right. And I`ll tell you what is really distasteful about this. Daniel Horowitz and his partner, Ivan Golde, took me on a tour of the Polk home and gave me their view of what happened, that Susan Polk killed her husband in self-defense.

And you know what? This is not a money-making trial for either Dan or Ivan. They took this case because they believe that woman. That believe that Susan Polk was innocent. That`s why they were doing this.

And to hear these new allegations from Susan Polk makes it all the more distasteful, especially when you know the circumstances around Dan`s case.

GRACE: Daniel Horowitz, I thought the first rule of honor amongst the defense bar is to get your money up front. Are you telling me this woman didn`t even pay you?

HOROWITZ: Well, Nancy, we took this case as a court-appointed case, which is about a quarter...

GRACE: OK. That`s enough.

HOROWITZ: And then we`re splitting the money, too, between me and Ivan Golde.

GRACE: So you and Golde are splitting what, a couple hundred bucks?

HOROWITZ: We`re splitting...

GRACE: That might cover your gas.

HOROWITZ: We felt strongly that Susan had a very tough background, we liked Helen Bolling, and we wanted to help the best we could.

GRACE: OK. I`ve got a question for you, Daniel. Do you feel betrayed?

HOROWITZ: Nancy, I start to feel betrayed, and then each time I go back to remembering what Susan has been through and what it must feel like to be on trial. Now, if you look at that Christmas card that she gave me - - and she gave me a Christmas card this year, hand done, beautiful, artistic -- it showed something remarkable about her. Just six days later, this is what happened.

GRACE: It shows a split personality, a possible insanity or mental incompetence defense is what she`s trying to mount now?

HOROWITZ: I don`t think so, Nancy. I think it -- I don`t know what it says.

I`m just putting that out there, that every time I feel hurt or defensive or bad about, you know, was I not, like, good enough to her or kind enough to her so she lashed out like this, I just say, well, look at it from her point of view. Look at that beautiful card she made me. There is a good part to her.

And I keep going back because that`s what I need to find inside myself to make something good out of what`s happening here.

GRACE: Ray Giudice, criminal defense attorney out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, what do you do when you have a client that not only fires you off the case after tons of work, but then accuses you of criminal conduct of the worst kind?

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And Nancy, you`re seeing the model. I greatly admire Mr. Horowitz`s dignity and professionalism under these circumstances. It`s a privilege to be in the same profession as he is.

And this is a model. There`s nothing else you can do but do what he`s doing. You suck it up. You get fired in this business, they file (INAUDIBLE) and argue ineffective assistance of counsel, and that`s just part of the business.

GRACE: Well, you know what, guys? I admire you this for this one thing, but as stoically as Horowitz is taking it, being accused by his own client of his wife`s murder, publicly, I remember this -- Elizabeth.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOROWITZ: You scream, you cry, but I know I just basically sat with her and I just told her, "I love you and you`re beautiful." And, you know, just whatever things you say to somebody you love, because to me, at that point, all that was there was the person I love.

I mean, it didn`t matter any more, you know, what -- what was around her or the horror. I had just so much time with Pamela. So, I just looked at her face, and it was beautiful.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POLK: I was asked by the court on December 2 whether I could proceed with Dan as my attorney, and he was also asked if he could proceed and whether there was any conflict of interest. And I said that I wasn`t aware of any on my part at that time, and since then I`ve changed my mind about that.

There have been certain things that have come to my attention that I was not aware of at the time. And I could see how certain statements that Dan has made to me could potentially be used in the defense of Mr. Dyleski, who is charged with the murder of Dan`s wife.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: If that`s not bucking for an insanity defense, I don`t know what is. That`s Susan Polk. She just fired Daniel Horowitz off her case. He was working for practically nothing.

Before we take you across the country to Virginia and the breaking news in the Taylor Behl case, a few more moments with Daniel Horowitz.

So Daniel, at this juncture, will she be able to represent herself? You know, that worked really well for Colin Ferguson. Remember him, the Long Island railroad shooter?

HOROWITZ: I remember that, Nancy.

GRACE: Yes, he`s doing hard time now.

HOROWITZ: You know I think she`s going to get to defend herself. Judge Brady has a lot of discretion either way. So I can`t really predict, but I`ve heard a lot of people like your friend Jimmy Anderson say that she`s going to grant it.

GRACE: OK. So we could see Susan Polk defending herself.

Very quickly to Susan Polk`s mom, joining us, Helen Bolling. She`s joining us from San Diego.

I know you want what is best for your daughter. I know this is not the first crazy idea she`s had. Didn`t she make you undergo a test to prove you`re truly her biological mother?

BOLLING: Well, I was asked by Susan, but it wasn`t Susan`s idea. See, you guys have got it all screwed up.

GRACE: OK. What happened? I`m sorry. I was told that she wanted you to take a scientific test.

BOLLING: It was Felix who was behind all that kind of garbage.

GRACE: What happened?

BOLLING: Susan expressed the thought that she suspected that perhaps I was not her mother, that there had been an error at the hospital. And given that there had been some recent newspaper reports in other cases where there had been an error in giving the wrong child to somebody, I agreed to have myself tested.

GRACE: Right. And you were tested?

BOLLING: Yes.

GRACE: And you are her mother?

BOLLING: Oh, well, yes, absolutely.

GRACE: Of course you are.

BOLLING: In fact, the margin of error was so almost invisible because...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Hey, Daniel, before we go to break...

BOLLING: Just a minute.

GRACE: ... welcome back, friend.

HOROWITZ: Thank you, Nancy. Thank you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATT BEHL, TAYLOR BEHL`S FATHER: His name is Ben Fawley, and he is, as you say, a 38-year-old photographer in Richmond.

GRACE: And what do we know about him? What was their relationship?

BEHL: Actually, he was the roommate of a VCU student that Taylor went down to -- when she went down to visit that school in February, he was the roommate of a boy that went to school there at VCU.

JANET PELASARA, TAYLOR`S MOTHER: I am positive the authorities will bring the sub-humans to justice, and I pray they receive the death penalty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Tonight, breaking news out of Virginia. An indictment in the case of Taylor Behl. We all stood by anxiously waiting for a resolution, hoping that Taylor Behl, just 17 years old at the time she went missing, just weeks into her freshman year at VCU, hoping she would be found. Her remains were found. And today, months later, finally, an indictment.

Straight out to a reporter with "Justice" magazine, Alex Koppelman. Bring us up-to-date, Alex.

ALEX KOPPELMAN, "JUSTICE MAGAZINE" CONTRIBUTOR: Nancy, it took just 45 minutes for the grand jury to come back with an indictment against Fawley today. He`s been in jail since September, since police searched his apartment and allegedly found evidence of child pornography on some of his computers.

And in October, shortly after her body was found, the "Richmond Times- Dispatch" reported that he went to police and told them that he was when she died, that the two had been having sex and that her death was an accident, and he panicked and hid her body in a shallow grave in rural Virginia where it was found.

GRACE: Her death was an accident?

KOPPELMAN: That`s what he`s saying, yes.

GRACE: What kind of an accident?

KOPPELMAN: Well, he`s saying that it`s -- that it was erotic asphyxiation, that it happened during rough sex, sort of like the Robert Chambers case from a little while back.

But prosecutors have a little bit of an advantage in the case. They can use previous -- or they`ll be trying to use previous assault cases that he has, a couple ex-girlfriends that he has actually been convicted of assaulting.

GRACE: With us from "Justice" magazine, Alex Koppelman. Also with us, chief correspondent with "Inside Edition," Jim Moret. Jim has been on the case from the beginning, as well.

Why is this not a death penalty case, Jim?

MORET: Well, I`m just still trying to figure out the rough sex statements. He`s claiming that it was an accident, and that would actually make it a manslaughter case. But the indictment was for murder, which would be a first-degree murder case.

But what was interesting is he made the statement to police. And initially, there was a gun charge, an illegal possession of firearm charge, that was associated with this. And the reason why that was dropped is because his attorney at the time was privy to that information and would have been a witness in that case. So the authorities had to drop the gun charge...

GRACE: No, they didn`t.

MORET: ... so that the attorney could stay on the case. The attorney...

GRACE: No, they didn`t. He could have just sent in a co-counsel.

MORET: Well...

GRACE: That is a ruse. Wait, OK, explain that one more time. Break it down?

MORET: This is what the prosecutor says.

GRACE: Oh.

MORET: The prosecutor says that they were only able to get a statement from Fawley with his attorney present. Now, his attorney, by the way, did not want Fawley to made a statement, but Fawley made the statement against the advice of his counsel.

But because the attorney was privy to information about this gun charge that he would not have been able to represent Fawley in the Behl case, so the authorities dropped the gun charge. So the deal that they made...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: You know what? The truth is, I don`t really even care about the gun charge. I care about the murder charge. Why is this not capital murder? This 17-year-old girl, by his own admission, was asphyxiated by him and then buried in a shallow grave, while her mom and dad swung in the wind wondering where the girl was.

MORET: I can`t answer you.

GRACE: Right now, special guest is joining us from Sacramento, California, Debbie Gallegos. This is Taylor Behl`s aunt.

Ma`am, thank you for being with us.

DEBBIE GALLEGOS, TAYLOR BEHL`S AUNT: Good evening, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good. I`m good. I`m happy, in the sense that this is some type of a resolution at this juncture. There`s been a formal charge. But I`m just wondering how the family is feeling tonight.

GALLEGOS: Well, we`re relieved that the grand jury felt there`s enough information to charge him with first-degree murder. So we`re relieved at that. We had all the confidence in the world in the task force and Chief Monroe, that he would do his very best.

GRACE: Debbie, why not the death penalty?

GALLEGOS: Yes, I don`t have an answer. I don`t know.

GRACE: Was that the decision by the family?

GALLEGOS: I`m not sure how much control the family had. My sister was not looking for the death penalty.

GRACE: Right. Right.

To Dr. Jonathan Arden, medical examiner, and, coincidentally, Dr. Arden worked on the Chandra Levy case, which has incredible parallels to this case. Welcome back, Doctor.

Doctor, I noticed that there was a statement floating around that there is still no determination of cause of death. Why?

JONATHAN ARDEN, MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, I think we`re in the same kind of situation that we saw with Chandra Levy, we saw - - when you and I discussed Molly Bish. We have very limited anatomic evidence, things that you can work with.

Unfortunately, when the body has been out in the elements for such a period of time, that soft tissues decay, they decompose. You end up with largely bones. And if you don`t have the kind of evidence that is seen in a broken bone, for instance, you don`t have the soft tissues. You don`t have the bruises. You don`t have the scratch marks, things like that.

And so the concrete evidence of the crime of the cause of death may not be there. But, of course, the manner of death is quite apparent. There is nothing to stop the medical examiner from calling this a homicide, which really is the only logical conclusion.

GRACE: Well, especially in light of the way that she was buried, taken into account in combination with his statement that he suffocated her during sex play.

Let`s take a look, Elizabeth. Can you pull up that script -- I mean, that list for me of what was taken from his apartment? Gym bag with spiked bracelet, dildos, knife. There`s some tissues and tampon wrappers. That was important for DNA purposes. Bra, machete. Got to have a machete. You got to have your chains and straps at home. Red brown stain, women`s underwear, hatchet, pry bar, clothes, videotapes. Am I missing anything, Elizabeth?

Whoa, all right. Razors, camera. There was a box with bones, bones. Repeat, box with bones in it. It goes on and on and on.

Dr. Joseph Deltito, professor of psychiatry, Fawley does suffer from bipolar disorder. Is that a possible defense?

JOSEPH DELTITO, PROFESSOR OF PSYCHIATRY: I don`t think it`s a defense in this case, although it might lead to some sort of argument of diminished capacity at some point. But we do know that he was considered to have disability by someone who had to fill out those forms over many years, which suggests that he had probably a severe form of bipolar disorder.

But most people with bipolar disorder do not do this kind of thing. There has to be other elements beyond the bipolar disorder.

GRACE: He`s manic-depressive, correct?

DELTITO: Manic-depressive. So maybe he was more impulsive than most, less able to tolerate frustration. But there had to be a lot more psychopathology going on. Nothing predicts future behavior like past behavior. We know that he had the many assaults against other women, the restraining orders, et cetera.

GRACE: And, of course, he`s being held on child pornography, right, Ellie?

DELTITO: Child pornography.

GRACE: OK, so you`ve got that count looming out there. I don`t know how they`re going to connect that into a defense with bipolar.

But, oh, and Dr. Deltito, before I move on, I just want to mention to you on air, we have really missed you. And welcome back, friend.

DELTITO: Well, thank you. I`ve been ill for a while, but I`m ready to go.

GRACE: I see that. And I completely disagree with all of your reasoning.

To John Patrick Dolan, John, don`t tell me you think that there is an insanity defense brewing here just because there`s a bipolar history.

JOHN PATRICK DOLAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, there might be, but let me answer the question about why there`s not...

GRACE: You mean she accidentally fell in that shallow grave?

DOLAN: Well, it could -- I think that`s a little stretch in it. But let me tell you why it`s not a capital case, because nobody`s answered that question for you yet. Remember, the Supreme Court required, when they reinstituted the death penalty back in the late `70s, that there be enumerated offenses, like lying in wait, kidnapping, et cetera, associated with a murder, multiple murders, murder of a police officer, before you could have a capital offense.

It appears the only evidence here is that she is deceased and that there`s this statement from the guy that wouldn`t rise to the level of one of those enumerated defenses. So that`s why there`s no capital case here.

GRACE: You know, I find it very difficult to believe, though, John Patrick Dolan, that the state could not prove a kidnapping defense. Because, as you know, kidnapping does not require the victim being taken miles and miles, exportation or movement. It only requires in some jurisdictions a couple of inches, from one room to another.

DOLAN: Well, I agree with you, but, you know, you`ve got to have evidence of that. And it sounds to me like there was a voluntary relationship that obviously went terribly awry. And so, unless you have evidence, it`s hard for a prosecutor to make that charge, because they have to have evidence to present to a jury.

GRACE: Ray Giudice, any chance for an insanity defense here? I`m thinking it`s actually a strong possibility, because where else is he going to go? You got him on child porn; it`s on his computer, according to police reports.

GIUDICE: Right, well...

GRACE: And this list of things taken out of his house, he better plead insanity.

GIUDICE: Well, Nancy, the problem is...

GRACE: Of course, a jury will never believe it.

GIUDICE: ... the more committed he gets to this consensual sex argument, the less likely he`s going to be able to use an insanity defense. That`s complete contradiction.

Consensual sex means we had a relationship, we went out on a quote, unquote, "date," and things went poorly. But you can`t come back and say, "Oh, and by the way, I didn`t know what I was doing."

GRACE: "I`m crazy."

GIUDICE: Yes, so I think that what the defense is going to do is wait to see the final pathology report to see if there`s any way the state can prove the manner of death.

GRACE: You know what you just brought up? Fifth Amendment, here in my little pocket Constitution, "right to remain silent." If he hadn`t come up with that kooky story about asphyxiation during sex play...

GIUDICE: Right.

GRACE: ... he wouldn`t be in this jam right now. A quick...

GIUDICE: He had counsel. He didn`t listen to him.

GRACE: You`re right.

Very quickly, to tonight`s "Trial Tracking." Forty-three-year-old Steven Avery pleads not guilty to charges he killed 25-year-old photographer Teresa Halbach, just two years after DNA cleared him of a rape. He had already served 20 years. He claims investigators are now framing him with Teresa Halbach`s murder. But cops report his blood in her car, her charred bones and teeth discovered near his home.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BYRON DORGAN (D), NORTH DAKOTA: This investigation has taken twists and turns that none of us had anticipated. It`s uncovered deceptions and greed that, even by Washington standards, are breathtaking.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That was significant, "even by Washington standards." It`s staggering.

Welcome back. We`re going it Washington for the latest in the continuing scandal regarding money, power and lobbyists. Let`s go straight out to Charlie Hurt, national reporter with the "Washington Times."

Welcome, friend. What exactly did Abramoff do?

CHARLIE HURT, "THE WASHINGTON TIMES": Well, Abramoff is charged with basically bribing public officials, as well as bilking some of his clients, who were Indian casino operators, out of millions -- you know, some $25 million. And...

GRACE: Where did that all that money go?

HURT: Well, I think to a very lavish lifestyle. And...

GRACE: Like what?

HURT: Well, you know, he`s got houses in, you know, up and down the East Coast. He`s got lots of powerful friends in high places, which he has apparently or allegedly, you know, showered with gifts...

GRACE: Well, wait a minute. What did he -- Charlie, what did he plead to?

HURT: Well, let`s back up a little bit. Jack Abramoff has been -- this investigation into Jack Abramoff has been going on for the better part of a year. And there have been allegations that he had bribed public officials in the House of Representatives with lavish trips and other perks like that.

GRACE: What do you mean by lavish trips?

HURT: Well, for example, the one that has probably gotten the most attention has been a trip, a golfing trip to Scotland, where, I think, as I recall, he spent some, you know, $60,000, $70,000 per official...

GRACE: Oh, wait a minute. Hurry, Ellie, bring me some water. I think I`m choking. Who got the trip to Scotland?

HURT: A number of top Republican leaders...

GRACE: Who? Who? Who? Who? Who?

HURT: ... such as Tom DeLay and Bob Ney, Majority Leader Tom DeLay and Bob...

GRACE: $70,000! You know what? My father worked 45 years on the railroad -- he`s never been to Scotland -- paying all this money into taxes so these representatives and senators can go to Scotland?

HURT: Yes, just when you thought that the reputation of Congress and the federal government couldn`t get any lower, they manage to kind of...

GRACE: Well, the other thing about this is -- this is what`s confusing to me -- why aren`t the Democrats screaming their heads off? Are they in trouble?

Hey, Elizabeth, run that scroll of all the many, many politicians that took money from either Abramoff, his clients, or his associates. Guys, it`s -- that`s not a scroll. Scroll it, Liz.

Go ahead, Charlie.

HURT: You put your finger right on it. That`s the problem, is that this is an equal-opportunity sort of thing, where both sides have been smeared terribly by all of this. Now, it should be...

GRACE: Smeared? Smeared? Now, wait a minute, they were smeared or did they actually take the money?

HURT: They have smeared themselves, rather.

GRACE: Excuse me, the vacation.

HURT: But it should be remembered that, while, you know, everybody is sort of implicated in all of this -- you know, on both sides of the aisle - - it should be remembered that, you know, the Republicans really have sort of cornered the market, in terms of their relationship with Jack Abramoff himself.

GRACE: So are they all trying to give away the money now?

HURT: Oh, yes. Oh, it`s been a huge boon for all these charities.

GRACE: I never thought I`d see it, politicians giving their money away. To who?

HURT: Especially to any charity that is related to the Indian reservations. They`re just getting tens of thousands of dollars in...

GRACE: Yes, they`re not making enough off the casinos. They need the money.

HURT: Right. Right.

GRACE: OK, now, are there going to be more indictments?

HURT: I would be surprised if there aren`t. Right now, there are still over a dozen current lawmakers, past staffers, former staffers who are still the subject of ongoing federal investigation by the IRS, the FBI.

GRACE: You know what, though? Now you`re scaring me. When you say "IRS," once the IRS calls you, you know what? Just hand over. Get cuffed. And leave. It`s easier that way.

HURT: Yes, you don`t mess around with them. They don`t play games.

GRACE: But the other thing is, you mentioned this has been going on forever. They`re so slow. What does this have to do exactly with DeLay?

HURT: Well, this is kind of what`s important, is that this investigation`s been going on. And it`s been talked about in Washington for over a year now.

But what happened, what thrusted beyond sort of the parlor talk in Washington to sort of a national issue was that Jack Abramoff pleaded guilty earlier this month and agreed to cooperate with investigators in their ongoing investigations. The rats scattered at this point.

(LAUGHTER)

Since then, we`ve had two...

GRACE: And they are rats.

HURT: Since then, we`ve had two resignations of top Republican leaders. And, you know, whether there will be more or not, who knows? And it should also be remembered that these top Republican leaders also say that, you know, that they insist they`ve done nothing wrong.

GRACE: Hey, Charlie -- oh, of course, they do. Charlie, before I go to break, I`ve got 10 seconds. What`s his jail time?

HURT: He still faces 11 years, but that`s down from about 30. And he owes about $25 million in restitution.

GRACE: Guess what? I think he can just write a check for it. Charlie Hurt, don`t move. We`ll all be right back.

Quickly to tonight`s "All-Points Bulletin." FBI, law enforcement across the country on the lookout for this woman, Sherry Halligan, wanted in connection with the 2003 shooting death of 52-year-old Dennis Campbell in Illinois.

Halligan, 47, 5`3", 108 pounds, blonde hair, green eyes. If you have info, call the FBI, 312-431-1333.

Local news next for some of you, but we`ll all be right back. And, remember, live coverage of a New Mexico boy on trial for shooting his family at the ranch owned by ABC newsman Sam Donaldson, 3:00 to 5:00 Court TV.

Please stay with us, everyone, as tonight we remember Specialist Michael Ignatius Edwards, just 26 -- he should have been in college -- an American hero.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALEXANDER ACOSTA, ACTING U.S. ATTORNEY: I think the plea is a good plea. It brings him to justice. He has pled to counts one and three. He will face, upon order of the court, significant jail time. He will face restitution.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: A powerhouse lobbyist in D.C. goes down on a plea deal, but a lot of other politicians are running scared, or as Charlie Hurt says, scattering like rats. He`s the national reporter with the "Washington Times." Specifically, Charlie Hurt, what about the $70 million he got from the Indian tribes to redistribute amongst the politicians?

HURT: Well, a good portion of that he has to return. That`s part of the $25 million restitution fine that was part of his deal.

But, you know, he still faces, in addition to the federal investigation -- there`s congressional district investigation also going on by the Indian Affairs Committee, led by John McCain and Byron Dorgan of North Dakota, two senators. And what`s interesting is that Byron Dorgan, who is a Democrat incidentally...

GRACE: You`re starting to lose me. I`m just a trial lawyer.

(LAUGHTER)

You have to break it down for us.

HURT: You know, he is one of the people leading this investigation into him on Capitol Hill.

GRACE: Got you.

HURT: And he`s had to return huge amounts of campaign contributions...

GRACE: Oh, $70 million!

HURT: ... from lobbyists, you know, from his clients, from Abramoff`s clients.

GRACE: You know what, Charlie? Charlie, I really don`t know how you do it. I would rather try a serial killer than have to have to deal with D.C. politicians.

Right here, I was just reading the Constitution. You know, Abramoff, you`re in contempt. And everybody that took money from you, in contempt. When I think all of the citizens of this country working every day to make a living, and there he is throwing millions of dollars around? Incredible.

Charlie, thank you.

HURT: Thank you.

GRACE: But I want to thank all of my guests tonight, especially to you, for being with us and inviting our stories and our legal prepositions into your home.

Coming up, headlines from all around the world. I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. Hope to see you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

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