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NANCY GRACE

Nancy Grace for November 28, 2005, CNNHN

Aired November 28, 2005 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, day one sentencing phase in the death penalty trial of Joseph Smith. Smith now stands convicted in the kidnap, assault and murder of 11-year-old Florida girl Carlie Brucia. Will this jury show Smith the mercy he refused to show Carlie? Will he be sentenced to life behind bars?
And tonight: Nine prisoners escape from a maximum security Washington jail. Right, nine! Tonight, police on a massive manhunt for prisoners still at large. And also tonight: It`s time for the real trial of the century -- no, not O.J. Simpson. It`s the trial of Saddam Hussein.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Tonight: The man once considered a deadly and imminent threat to America on trial. Stunning development, one of Saddam Hussein`s defense lawyers an American, Ramsey Clark.

And tonight, inmates still on the loose after a mass jailbreak in Yakima, Washington. Tonight, police searching for 28-year-old Luis Soto and 26-year-old Gianno Alaimo. Nine prisoners attempted escape on Friday night using bedsheets. Now, there`s something new, bedsheets tied together. Yes, that`s right. And they made it.

But first tonight: Will it be death in the Carlie Brucia murder trial? Joseph Smith convicted for the kidnap, assault and murder of 11-year-old Carlie.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BRUCIA, CARLIE BRUCIA`S FATHER: I`ve received letters from inmates across the country and -- expressing their condolences, and I`ve talked to some other people, and I just feel, in my opinion, justice would be served better with Joseph Smith in jail, looking over his shoulder, worried about what might happen to him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And interesting point of fact. In this jurisdiction of Florida, the death penalty does not have to be an unanimous vote of 12 but a simple majority. Seven of those 12 jurors could send Smith to the death penalty.

Let`s go straight out to Newsradio 970 WFLA reporter Gordon Byrd, in court today. Gordon, bring us up to date, friend.

GORDON BYRD, NEWSRADIO 970 WFLA: Well, Nancy, the prosecution started by rolling off several aggravating factors for the jury to consider as it weighs whether to recommend the death penalty for Joseph Smith. And it is a recommendation. The judge has the final say in the murder of Carlie Brucia. The factors include Carlie`s age -- of course, just 11 when she was kidnapped, raped and killed -- and Smith`s apparent intention to keep Carlie from being a witness to the crime, the premeditated nature and the heinous nature of the crime.

Carlie`s mother and father, of course, made victim impact statements, as did Carlie`s stepfather. Those were edited by the judge. Carlie`s father...

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! Did you say edited by the judge?

BYRD: They were edited or redacted. The judge took out a couple of sentences from the mother`s and father`s statements, which were required to be written out in advance. For example, in the case of the father, he said Joe Brucia could not say to the jury that he felt self-loathing every time he thought of the fact that he could not save his daughter`s life.

GRACE: Gordon, why? Why did the trial judge limit -- I thought this was America, freedom of speech, 1st Amendment. This is a victim`s right to speak in front of the jury at sentencing phase. Why did the judge disallow the father to speak as he wished?

BYRD: The judge said that he didn`t want to be insensitive or come off as insensitive to the victim`s family. He said that he was concerned about the law, and even though there hadn`t been a case of a case being overturned because of victims` statements, he was concerned that there was always that risk of the possibility of a verdict being overturned.

GRACE: But for what ground, Gordon Byrd? What ground? Why did this judge -- the father finally gets to speak about the impact his daughter`s kidnap, rape and murder has had on him, when he was helpless...

BYRD: The judge said...

GRACE: ... when his daughter was taken away, and he won`t let him speak his full mind to the jury?

BYRD: The judge said that that fell out of the definition of what the Florida law said a victim impact statement was.

GRACE: And what exactly does the judge think the victim impact statement is?

BYRD: The victim impact statement, as he quoted to the jury this morning, had to do with the uniqueness of the life of the individual whose life was taken and of the impact of that individual`s life on the community.

GRACE: Well, let me ask you this, Gordon Byrd. Everybody, Gordon Byrd, Newsradio 970 WFLA, in court today. We are at the sentencing phase of Joseph Smith. He stands convicted in the rape, kidnap and murder of a 11-year-old Florida girl.

Gordon, let me guess that when the defense started putting up their witnesses -- let me guess, did they pull out kindergarten photos and get all teary-eyed and cry about what his absence would mean to them?

BYRD: It was very much a case of, Joseph Smith, this is your life. His cousin, his aunt, his former business partner were among those who spoke in the first day of testimony. And although they didn`t get into the impact of what a death penalty for Joseph Smith would mean to them, all spoke and talked about the -- different instances of what they saw as kindness in his life. They described him as an animal lover. And everyone, to a person, described him...

GRACE: An animal lover? Wait, wait, wait! Did you say animal lover?

BYRD: Animal lover. The defense introduced a picture of him feeding a peacock. And to a person, every one of them described Smith as a great mechanic.

GRACE: A great mechanic. OK.

Susan Candiotti, CNN correspondent, has been on the case from the get- go. Susan, what type of evidence did this trial judge allow the defense to bring in that they did not allow the victim`s family to bring in?

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, since -- you know, Nancy, that`s hard to say. I can tell you that in addition to the fact that he is an animal lover, according to the defense, the defense was allowed to bring in a -- his old prom date, a former girlfriend who went to the prom with him, talk about how they used to be friends and he was a nice guy, although later, he became possessive.

Now, to contrast that with what the victim impact witnesses were able to say -- they were not allowed to talk about, for example, I know that my daughter would be with God now that she is with the angels. He withheld that. If there was an explanation for that, I don`t know.

I can certainly say from covering a lot of trials as, obviously, you`re well aware, Nancy, in some cases, judges -- for example, in the Oklahoma City bomb case, witnesses on both the federal and state level were not permitted to get too deeply, even in that case, about what it was like because the judges in those instances, federal and state, felt that it might be prejudicial, as it was explained, too prejudicial, and were concerned about having the case possibly be turned on an appeal, if someone agreed that it was too prejudicial to the defense.

GRACE: Well, you know what`s amazing to me? This 11-year-old girl -- Elizabeth (ph), if you could show me a picture of Carlie Brucia -- her stepfather told me today he thought she looks like Cameron Diaz. She`s a beautiful little girl inside and out. She gets kidnapped, raped, murdered, left half nude out by a church, out -- out in the grass, surrounded by shrubs. But to talk about how much she is missed is deemed prejudicial to the defendant.

Take a listen to what Carlie`s mother had to say, what she could not have said in court.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SUSAN SCHORPEN, CARLIE BRUCIA`S MOTHER: I lost the light of my life, my buddy, my best friend, most of all, my daughter. I cry for her all hours of the day. I cry for her at night. I am broken. I will never heal. I will never have closure and never again have my daughter by my side. My heart will always have a void, a tremendous loss.

BRUCIA: When Carlie was taken from my family and me, it hurt us to the core. Afterward, I would also seclude myself and drink excessively in the evenings, alone, isolated, in the dark. I would think surely this could not be real, but this was my child. There were many times when I no longer wanted to go on and was close to taking my own life. If not for a great support system of loving family and friends, I would not be here today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Now, you notice they are reading from victim impact statements in the courtroom. carefully vetted victim impact statements that the judge ruled on.

Hey, Elizabeth, if you could, rack up what Carlie`s mom said outside the courtroom.

To Marc Klaas -- Marc, why is it this at this juncture, we`re no longer talking about guilt or innocence -- this is the bifurcated trial, and my question is, Why can`t these victims speak the way they want? Why are they being limited? In fact, some of the state`s victim impact witnesses were totally disallowed.

MARC KLAAS, PRES., BEYOND MISSING: Well, I think that it just points out stronger -- strong -- strongly as is humanly possible that victims have no rights in a courtroom. It`s all about the defendant. This guy did this most heinous crime -- in fact, he did the same thing to this little girl that Richard Allen Davis did to my little girl. And this just brings me right back to those moments in 1996.

But it`s always about him. It`s never about the families. He can get up and do and say anything that he wants, and get away with it, at this point, just as he got away, really, with taking this little girl`s life for some amount of days. They offer him considerations. They justify. They excuse what he did. They offer all their mitigating factors, but the parents are -- are restricted from being able to say things and do things in this, the only opportunity they have in the entire system to make any meaning or make any sense or make any record of what this loss meant to their family. It`s just horrible!

GRACE: And of course, his first defense was, That`s not me that you see in the video. There was a video of him walking along with little Carlie. And then his sperm turns up on the back of her shirt. Something - - what was it, Ellie (ph), about a 1 in 4 million...

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was quintillion or something like that.

GRACE: ... quintillion match that it was him. Now he hasn`t stood up and said anything but -- Elizabeth, got that sound for me? Let`s take a listen to Carlie`s mom outside the courtroom.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCHORPEN: It was hard, but it needed to be said. I wanted to say more. There were other people, other friends of mine, other family members who wanted to say more. Her grandmother wanted to speak. They weren`t allowed, and I don`t believe that that was fair.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Joining us right now is a very special guest, someone dear to my heart. This is Carlie`s father, Joe Brucia. Mr. Brucia, thank you for being with us.

BRUCIA: Hello, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: How are you holding up?

BRUCIA: I`m doing OK, you know. I`m holding up.

GRACE: What are your thoughts on the court process so far?

BRUCIA: Well, where do I start, you know? There`s many issues that I don`t find fair, you know? First of all, I think he should have been in prison uniform and he should have been shackled. He`s a convicted murderer and rapist, you know, and I don`t think he should have gotten the courtesy he was accorded by the court. But I don`t make these decisions, so I can`t...

GRACE: What do you want to see at the end of this trial, Joe?

BRUCIA: I want to see -- well, ultimately I`ll never see what I truly want, but I just want Joe Smith to have the most miserable life he can possibly have because that`s all he should be entitled to.

GRACE: You know, a lot of people argue, Joe, that life behind bars would be worse for him than the death penalty. Do you agree or disagree?

BRUCIA: Well, one can only speculate what can happen in the future, but I am of that opinion. I think that -- well, I know that when he is on death row, he will be fed and coddled and looked over, but there`s always a chance -- he`ll always have to look over his shoulder. He`ll always have to have a little fear of what reprisals may come from other inmates that don`t find criminals like him acceptable.

GRACE: What has it been like for you being in that courtroom?

BRUCIA: It was -- it was difficult. It was very difficult. And you know, your impulse, as anyone`s impulse would be, is you -- you know, you just want to destroy this animal, but you can`t and you have to keep your composure, and I did that for my family, as well as Carlie, and...

GRACE: With us tonight is Carlie Brucia`s father. Very quickly, to Courtney Anderson, defense attorney. Courtney, why is it that the defense gets to say and do whatever they want to in a court of law but the victims` families are limited by the judge?

COURTNEY ANDERSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t think it is that the defense gets to say and do whatever they want to do. I do think there`s nothing that court of law could do to bring closure to this family. I can only imagine the rage and the pain and the vengeance and the disappointment that they must feel. But the court system is to be there to buffer our natural kind of impulses and to create a civilized society. We are better than these animals, and that`s why the court system is there, to prevent family members from jumping up in a moment of pain and desperation and avenging the death of their loved one. We have a court system that overwhelmingly the majority of victims...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s terrible!

ANDERSON: ... do rely on to be there, and they don`t take the...

GRACE: Why shouldn`t they jump up?

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Why shouldn`t you -- no, nobody in this case...

ANDERSON: Because we`re better because...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: My question was why can`t they speak frankly...

ANDERSON: They are...

GRACE: ... when the defendant, if he had the backbone, has the opportunity to speak freely, but not Carlie`s father, not her stepfather?

ANDERSON: The defendant hasn`t spoken at all, as we know. But the people who engage in these types of absolutely abominable acts and crimes and people who we are better than. We are the people and the systems within our country that we rely on, and that`s why we turn to a justice system. If we didn`t have a justice system, then some people would feel overcome by rage, if there was no other alternative, and they would lower themselves to the standards of those people. We are better than they are and...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What`s she talking about?

ANDERSON: ... that`s why we have...

GRACE: OK, hold on...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Before we go to break, I believe Carlie Brucia`s father wants to speak out. Joe?

BRUCIA: Am I on air?

GRACE: Yes. Go ahead, dear.

BRUCIA: Yes, I would just like to comment again on the attempts by just certain media outlets, not all the media -- of course, I`m speaking of Channel 6, 8 and "The Herald Tribune" and "Tampa Bay Tribune," who still are fighting to view these photos. And my argument is they say they have no intent on printing them, but they`re opening a Pandora`s box. If they do become public domain, there runs a risk of them getting into the wrong hands and hurting my family and myself. And for what reason? What justifiable reason do they have for putting us in this perilous position? I don`t think they can explain it away.

There is no secret evidence. Everything was presented to the jury. He`s been convicted. I don`t really think we have to worry about a repressive regime. I think that`s a little melodramatic. And I just think they really have no foundation. They just want to do it because they`re the press and they feel they have entitlements over anyone else, and I don`t really think that`s a good enough reason.

GRACE: All right. Joe Brucia`s is Carlie`s father and he`s speaking out against media outlets that have requested open files in this criminal case. Now, these files in the Carlie case do include naked photos of Carlie`s body, and those are part of what the news outlets want. They say they don`t want to print them.

Very quickly, to tonight`s "Case Alert." Mystery in the disappearance of 6-year-old Aarone Thompson. November 14, Aarone`s father told cops she ran away from their Aurora, Colorado, home. Police say that is a lie. They believe Aarone was murdered as many as 18 months ago. The little girl`s father and girlfriend, police say, they are -- refused to be interviewed. They are considered persons of interest. If you have info, please call the Aurora police, 303-739-6051.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP

SCHORPEN: Not only am I broken, but my family is shattered. I feel this killed my mother. It ran my father out of this country, and both my brothers are struggling with our reality. My son lost his big sister, his playmate, his best friend. Our lives have been catastrophically destroyed. It`s irreversible damage.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is the mother of 11-year-old Carlie Brucia. Right now, in a Florida courtroom, we are in sentencing phase.

To Susan Candiotti -- Susan, it`s the same jury hearing aggravation and mitigation to determine whether there`ll be a death penalty as heard guilt/innocence, right?

CANDIOTTI: That`s right. The same group of people, that`s right.

GRACE: Everybody, it`s trial 101. It is called a bifurcated trial. In other words, in this case, the same jury first hears facts regarding guilt/innocence, and then once they adjudicate that, then they hear mitigating circumstances.

And very quickly, let me go out to defense attorney Sam Cammack. Sam, it`s because, in my estimation, you can`t let the jury hear prejudicial evidence during guilt/innocence phase. That`s why it`s got to be bifurcated.

SAM CAMMACK, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I agree.

GRACE: And so in this case, what do you expect to see from the defense?

CAMMACK: Well, I expect them to try to, obviously, mitigate this, to humanize the defendant in this case. Obviously, he`s been dehumanized by the media. He`s been portrayed as an animal, which if he`s guilty of this offense, and obviously, the jury has decided that he is...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jesus!

CAMMACK: ... that they need to put a face on this guy and they need to bring up his family history and all these types of things, to make sure that he gets a fair shake in punishment.

GRACE: You think we`ll hear from the ex-wife and daughter, Sam Cammack?

CAMMACK: Possibly.

GRACE: Let`s just say there`s a court order disallowing him from seeing his daughters.

CAMMACK: Well, I doubt we`ll hear from them.

GRACE: Yes. What about him? Do you think there`s even a snowball`s chance in you know where that this guy`s going to take the stand?

CAMMACK: I don`t think so, Nancy. I believe that it`s important for the defense in this case to put on as much mitigating evidence as possible. They need to humanize this guy again. Obviously, he`s been convicted of a horrible and heinous crime, but at this point in time, the defense attorney`s trying to save this guy`s life. And only way to do it is to make him look like a human to the jury, and that`s when they`re going to do.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRUCIA: If the death penalty could be carried out expeditiously, if it could happen next week, perhaps I would be in favor of it. But Joe Smith has been playing the system his entire adult life, and he will continue to do that for the next 18 years on appeals with the death penalty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. The death penalty phase in the case of Joseph Smith going down in a Florida courtroom right now. He stands convicted in the murder of 11-year-old Carlie Brucia.

To Marc Klaas, who went through the same thing. What is the family going through? What were you going through at this point in your daughter`s trial?

KLAAS: Well, when you have an opportunity to make that victim impact statement, you have your only opportunity to tell the court how you feel. So that actually tends to be a great relief. I, on other hand, would hope that this man does get the death penalty because that`s exactly what he deserves. He has no understanding of the value of life, and as soon as the world tells him that his life has no value and that we`re going to extinguish it and he ultimately takes that walk down the road, down the last 50 yards to the gurney, maybe then he`ll get some understanding of that value of life.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SUSAN HENDRICKS, CNN HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Hi, everyone. I`m Susan Hendricks with your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."

Some Hollywood travelers are still stranded after a major snowstorm shut down hundreds of miles of highways. Eastbound lanes of Interstate 70 are closed from Denver to Russell, Kansas. Visibility is next to zero in some areas and snow drifts are up to six feet high. Slippery roads are being blamed for at least four deaths.

A New Orleans public school has opened for the first time since Hurricane Katrina struck. Officials say it`s both a hopeful sign of the city`s recovery and a preview of the difficult road ahead in repopulating the city. Only about 120 students showed up for classes at Ben Franklin Elementary School.

Congressman Randy "Duke" Cunningham is resigning his seat in the House. The California Republican pleaded guilty in San Diego today to federal charges of tax evasion and conspiracy. He faces up to 10 years in prison and up to $350,000 in fines.

That`s the news for now. I`m Susan Hendricks.

GRACE: While we were all trying to get over our Thanksgiving turkey dinner, they were planning a break. That`s right. Nine escapees out of a Yakima jail. It just never seems to end.

Let`s go straight out to Bill Ecret with KBSN 1470 AM. What the hey is going on?

BILL ECRET, REPORTER, KBSN 1470 AM: Well, Nancy, about 5:20 Friday night, nine inmates escaped out of the Yakima jail through a ceiling in the cell of their unit. Now this...

GRACE: Bill, Bill?

ECRET: Yes?

GRACE: Please tell me it`s not true that they actually tied bed sheets together. They did, didn`t they?

ECRET: It`s true. It sounds too easy, doesn`t it?

GRACE: Where`s Colonel Klink? That`s all I want to know.

ECRET: Well, this was actually too easy for these nine inmates. Again, this was on the top floor of a four-story main jailhouse. They gained access to the roof. From there, they tied the bed sheets to slide down the roof. They hit a top of another jail annex and jumped to the ground.

GRACE: What I don`t understand is, why were nine inmates together, unsupervised, with endless amounts of bed sheets tied together? Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEN RINK, YAKIMA COUNTY DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS: Last night, right after dinner, is when this all happened, Friday about 5:00 when the inmates busted through the ceiling of that cell upstairs on fourth floor.

And our officers first discovered it when one of the officers in the control room noticed some of the inmates on the roof at the annex, and he called our corrections officers to respond to that. One of them was already down on the pavement. And the officer had stepped outside and saw him standing there, and he tackled him right away.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Still at large tonight two inmates, Gianno Alaimo, age 25, 5`10", 150 pounds, tattoo on left side of neck. Also, Luis Soto, age 28, 6`1", 220 pounds. OK, bookend, tattoo on right side of neck.

I want to go to Don Clark, former head of the FBI Houston bureau. What resources are being used to track them down?

DON CLARK, FORMER HEAD OF FBI HOUSTON BUREAU: Nancy, they don`t have a choice but to go after everything they possibly can, because these criminals, they don`t look at state lines, federal lines or whatever. So you`ve got to consider the fact that they may be going anyplace. So they`re going to get out of the county. They may possibly get out of the state. And, keep in mind, they are up near Canada. So we`re talking international.

So I think the federal resources, the state resources, and, certainly, everything the local people have to throw in has got to go towards trying to catch these guys.

GRACE: Back to Bill Ecret, Bill, why were they behind bars to start with?

ECRET: Could you repeat that, Nancy, please?

GRACE: Yes, why were they behind bars to start with?

ECRET: Well, Soto was in jail facing a trial on second-degree theft charges, also Alaimo charged with assault. So those two in particular, really the minor of the nine, as far as offenses were concerned, but these other inmates were -- some even wanted for murder.

GRACE: And these two are considered armed and dangerous.

To Dr. Robi Ludwig, psychologist, Dr. Robi, these two had relatively - - would face relatively light sentences on burglary. It`s 1 to 20. Even if they got the max, they`d be out in 8 years. OK, that`s a lot different than somebody facing life behind bars.

DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: But they wouldn`t be out in two days.

GRACE: What about the consequences they now face?

LUDWIG: That`s the problem with criminals. They don`t really think about the consequences or tomorrow. They think about the moment, and they think about in a very impulsive way. So it`s what feels good in the moment, what helps them to feel alive, and that`s what the problem is with these individuals. They don`t think enough.

GRACE: To Chief Sam Granato, special guest joining us by phone. He`s with the Yakima Police Department. How could these nine people, Chief, be together unsupervised behind bars tying bed sheets together?

CHIEF SAM GRANATO, YAKIMA POLICE DEPARTMENT: Well, Nancy, you know, we start pointing to fingers. Texas had seven inmates get away from them over there.

GRACE: Uh-uh. Don`t play dodge ball with me, Chief.

GRANATO: These people have plenty of time to sit around and exploit your weaknesses, and they do.

GRACE: Bed sheets. Bed sheets. That`s not high-tech, Chief.

GRANATO: Well, it certainly isn`t. They`re going to use what they have at their disposal.

GRACE: Now, there are still two at large. Everyone, take a look at this, considered armed and dangerous. Who was this woman that is believed to be traveling with Luis Soto?

GRANATO: We don`t have any specific information of who she may be, other than she`s been described as a Hispanic female in his company. And that`s the only information we`re getting from the sheriff`s department.

Soto is from outside the city of Yakima. Alaimo is from inside the city. And he is dangerous. He has attacked police officers. In fact, that`s what he`s in jail for, is trying to run down a police officer.

GRACE: You know what? That is amazing to me. Here is someone behind bars for attempted murder on a police officer, trying to run him down with a car. A car can be a lethal weapon.

And he is on top of the jail stringing bed sheets together. Well, I`ve done a little undercover investigation. And I think I`ve gotten to the root of the problem. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But what do we do when the Gestapo finds us in the tunnel, tell them we`re on a three-day pass?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They`re not going to find you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You sure?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cross my heart. Because we`re going to dig a whole new tunnel for them to find.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, men. Down the tunnel.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve got an idea. Why don`t we go back down the tunnel, come up through the stump, contact the underground, and punch them all in the mouth?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bad idea, Captain.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, you guys got nothing to lose, but if they catch us, it`s goodbye Charlie.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know one thing, Colonel: We`re not going to wait around waiting for the Gestapo to nail us.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Nine prisoners, one of them behind bars for attempting to run down a cop in a car. Nine of them make an escape from the jail, two still at-large. How did they do it? No high-tech. No "Prison Break," like you see in prime time.

No, they knotted bed sheets together. And two of them are still on the lamb.

That was a clip from the show back in the `60s where prisoners always seemed to get the upper hand over the guards.

Chief Granato, no offense, but tying bed sheets together, I mean, aren`t the cells checked on a routine basis to make sure nothing is missing? And how do nine people congregate unsupervised?

GRANATO: Nancy, I don`t operate the county jail.

GRACE: I know you don`t. I know you don`t. But you`re the only one I have to ask questions. Everybody else is scared to come on and answer questions, Chief.

GRANATO: Well, my job is to apprehend these guys. And I really have to go on this interview. We have some specific information on the whereabouts of one individual, and I`d rather be catching him than talking to you. Have a good night.

GRACE: I think the "Hogan`s Heroes" thing kind of pushed him over the edge.

And back to you, Bill Ecret, KBSM 1470 AM, following up on what the chief said, what are they doing to find these guys?

Let`s show a picture again, Elizabeth.

ECRET: Well, what they`re doing, Nancy, is they`ve issued press releases to all the statewide counties and, basically, the information they`ve given is just what we`ve given on the television this evening.

I do have a name, though, as far as the one person that Soto may be accompanied by. Her name is Irmalinda Aradano Juega (ph), and AKA Ramos (ph), and both of those, Soto and Irmalinda (ph), are from the (INAUDIBLE) just south of Yakima.

GRACE: How is it that they`re associated, Bill?

ECRET: We don`t have that information other than the fact that they could be traveling together. That`s just a press release we got this morning.

One thing, Nancy, that you haven`t pointed out yet: This breakout is very similar to a breakout they had back in 1994 where they lost four other inmates through the roof and they used bed sheets.

GRACE: You know, it`s amazing to me -- to Courtney Anderson, veteran defense attorney -- these guys, well, at least one of them, was facing relatively light jail time, the other trying to run down a cop. He was looking at a long sentence. But now with an escape under their belt, Courtney, they`re looking at a lot of jail time tacked onto this.

COURTNEY ANDERSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely. And that`s why, from the outside in, it doesn`t make any sense. It doesn`t make any sense. I must say, having grown up in Yakima as a young child for a couple of years, it`s a great community. I`m certain that they will take the steps necessary to figure out what went wrong and how did this happen..

GRACE: No, no, no. They had a chance to do that back in 1994. And you, as a citizen of Yakima, should be outraged that these guys have done a repeat and encore performance with bed sheets.

ANDERSON: I think that all of us, though, must respect those people who take the jobs to be in law enforcement and that -- I know from the outside it looks kind of outrageous. I`m sure there are answers. I`m sure a lot of hard questions are going to be asked.

It makes no sense to me why anyone, first of all, would want to do anything to go to jail. I also don`t understand why, if you`re in jail, and you`re release is relatively imminent, why you would jeopardize that by running away.

And lastly, I know we`re talking about looking internationally and we`re all talking about looking all over the place, usually when these people escape, they`re found running right back to their community, to their girlfriend, to their families...

GRACE: That`s true.

(CROSSTALK)

ANDERSON: ... the guys found outside the 7-Eleven, or the convenience store in Louisiana drunk. I mean, these people -- I know that you and I might think, "Oh, if I was going to escape, I`d run internationally. I`d have an elaborate plan. I`d cover my tracks," but often these individuals are found exactly where you`d look for them, family, friends, local community.

So I`m not losing unnecessary amount of sleep thinking that these individuals won`t be apprehended. I think they will be apprehended imminently. And I think that we all...

LUDWIG: I think she`s absolutely right. And also, you know, we have to remember, too, that there`s probably a lot of macho-ism attached to people who are able to plan an escape and actually...

GRACE: Is macho-ism actually a word?

LUDWIG: Well, I don`t know. It`s a machismo, whatever.

GRACE: Whatever.

LUDWIG: But there is some status that they gain in that this is how they make a name for themselves in their world.

GRACE: Very quickly, everyone, tonight, we have received information from Natalee Holloway`s family. There was a new and decisive development in the case of the teenager missing from Aruba since May. Her family makes a special announcement about the new direction they take to bring their girl home. We`ll bring it to you tomorrow.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): We call on the special tribunals to execute him, because the evidence is clear enough. So do not delay the execution of this criminal. In the name of the people of the jail, we call for this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): Saddam`s trial is like an Iraqi wedding. It`s a tribunal that`s trying the tyrant Saddam. We demand that Saddam be hanged to death and put on gallows under the liberty monument.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: If you thought the trial of O.J. Simpson was the trial of the century, you`ve got another thought coming. Now the trial of Saddam Hussein kicks off, a few of his little misdemeanors. He`s on trial for hundreds of thousands of people have died, allegedly because of his actions, the vast majority of them Muslims. Saddam apparently has had 40 of his own relatives murdered. The list is endless.

Let`s go straight out to CNN correspondent Nic Robertson. Nic, thank you for being with us. Bring us up-to-date, friend.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The trial got under way, Nancy. It seemed to be going fairly well in the morning, a little bit erratic. Saddam Hussein was late to the court. He was over six minutes late after the judge called him. He berated the judge at one point.

But things really took a different turn after lunchtime. The judge said, going into lunch break, that the defendants can meet with their lawyers. They seemed to like that. Saddam Hussein was smiling.

When they came back after lunch, it was a whole different ball game. All of the sort of top-name defendants, Saddam Hussein, his half-brother, his former vice president, his former chief of justice, all got up, had strong words for the judge. And that ended up with a judge calling for this seven-day adjournment, Nancy.

GRACE: Nic Robertson, CNN correspondent in court today, Nic, tell me about the American defense attorney that is defending Saddam Hussein.

GRACE: Yes, Ramsey Clark, the former attorney general, is now an international adviser for Saddam Hussein. Indeed, the judge today told him that the next time he saw him back in court he wanted him to see -- he wanted the see him wearing the Iraqi lawyers` defense robes. It`s a black robe with a green collar on it. And he said he expected to see him wearing that next time.

Ramsey Clark said he comes to the court because he wanted to highlight what`s happening to some of the defense lawyers here. There have been fourteen defense lawyers, and two of them have already been shot dead, another one killed. It`s chased some of them out of the country, and he wants to highlight that unfairness.

I put him to him and another international adviser that Saddam Hussein wasn`t the best person, perhaps, to be defending on human rights grounds. But he said, no, for this trial, it`s important that everyone sees that it is a fair trial, if nothing else, Nancy.

GRACE: To Noah Feldman, NYU professor, adviser to the Iraqi Governing Council, and gave them advice in drafting the constitution, welcome, Noah. Noah, what are, specifically, some of the charges Hussein is facing?

NOAH FELDMAN, NYU LAW PROFESSOR: Well, in this part of the trial, he`s only being charged with one specific crime. And that is the death of 148 men and boys in the (OFF-MIKE) Dujail as a retaliation for an attempted assassination against Saddam which took place during the early 1980s. So that`s charge that he`s facing now.

Eventually, he`ll face more charges for things like the gassing of the Kurds in the northern part of the country or the killing of hundreds of thousands of Shia in the southern part of the country.

GRACE: And back to Noah Feldman, Noah, while other attorneys are running as fast as they can from defending this trial, two of them already have been killed (OFF-MIKE) defending Hussein (OFF-MIKE)

FELDMAN: I think you`d have to ask Ramsey Clark about that. But what we`re hearing from Nic Robertson was that he was arguing that his job was to draw attention to the difficulty of having a fair trial under these circumstances.

The truth is that, when several defense attorneys have been killed, it is very hard to hold a fair trial. That is, in fact, a major challenge. It sounds like that`s what Ramsey Clark is doing there. But, honestly, you`d have to ask him.

GRACE: To Nic Robertson, CNN correspondent, how long is this trial expected to take?

ROBERTSON: The government would like to see it wrap up in about two or three months. I asked one of Saddam Hussein`s defense lawyers. He said a normal criminal case should take about two years. This trial, he said, should take about five years.

The government hopes to get through -- or hopes the Iraqi high tribunal will get through about 12 witnesses a day. But from what we`ve seeing today, I think the government`s at least hopes in this are perhaps a little too hopeful, from what we`ve seen.

There`s going to be delays along the way. There`s going to be petitions from the floor. There`s going to be complaints. And if more defense lawyers get killed, then there will be more challenges in the court. More defendants say they don`t want to be represented by court- appointed lawyers. And, as Noah says, this is only the first case. There are many, many more to come.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SADDAM HUSSEIN, FORMER DICTATOR OF IRAQ (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): The elevator was not working. And the Koran in my hand and the handcuffs. I went in the elevator.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): We will bring that to the attention of the police.

HUSSEIN: Mr. Judge? I don`t want you to -- I want you to order -- I want you to order them. They`re on our land. You have the sovereignty of the Iraqi. And there are foreigners and occupiers and invaders.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: He is in contempt. Somebody needs to be taken out of that courtroom and gagged. A hundred thousand people dead. He`s complaining about his handcuffs.

Very quickly to tonight`s "All-Points Bulletin." FBI and law enforcement on the lookout for Sherry Halligan, wanted in connection with the 2003 murder of 52-year-old Dennis Campbell. Halligan, 46, 5`3", 108 pounds, blonde hair, green eyes. If you have info, call 312-431-1333.

Local news next for some of you. But we`ll all be right back.

Please stay with us as we remember Army Specialist Dominic J. Hinton, 24, an American hero.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAMSEY CLARK, DEFENSE ATTORNEY FOR SADDAM HUSSEIN: Whether I`ll remain throughout the trial, it`s not likely. If it proceeds as it did today, it would be a waste of my time and perhaps even give of appearance of fairness that didn`t exist, because I couldn`t detect today that it would be easy to make a difference, in terms of fairness.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. The trial of Saddam Hussein under way. Here in the studio with me, Dr. Robi Ludwig. Why his defiant position in court?

LUDWIG: He has a messianic complex, where he felts that he is entitled to be treated properly and that he should, in fact, probably regain power. And very often, people of a wounded self feel very sensitized to slights.

GRACE: This is a shot of Saddam Hussein being uncovered in his hidey hole. Remember that? The memory fond and dear to all of us. The first thing he did was spit on an American right in the face. Now an American is there defending Saddam Hussein.

As all know, everybody has a right to a defense attorney. Sam Cammick (ph), yes, no, could you defend him?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Saddam Hussein`s not going to get a lot of sympathy from me.

GRACE: Question: Can you defend him, yes, no? Oh, good lord, man. Answer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I`m telling you, I would defend him to make sure that he got a fair trial.

GRACE: OK, fine. Courtney Anderson, yes, no? Be honest.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Me, personally, no. I`d defend the system. I`d defend his rights. But I personally would not take that case.

GRACE: And, very quickly, in the few moments I have left, Noah Feldman, can he get a fair trial anywhere in this world?

FELDMAN: It`s extremely difficult to see how he could. Within his country, almost everybody has been affected by his years in power. So almost everyone`s lost a family member, or a loved one, or a close friend. And under those circumstances, no one`s going to really believe that he could plausibly not be found guilty. He will be found guilty ultimately.

GRACE: Well, maybe it has something to do not so much with the way the trial is carried out but the fact that he is guilty.

To Noah Feldman, NYU professor and adviser to the Iraqi Governing Council, thank you.

But I want to thank all of my guests tonight. Our biggest thank you is to you for being with us, inviting us into your homes. And thank you for being with us over Thanksgiving, as we see the trials going down across the country. We have so much to be thankful for.

I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. Jennifer, hurry home to us. Hope to see you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

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