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NANCY GRACE

NANCY GRACE for April 20, 2005, CNNHN

Aired April 20, 2005 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, imagine your son out for the evening with his girlfriend on a date and then he never comes home, no word, no phone call, nothing. A parent`s worst nightmare comes true. Then the weeks pass. They never come home.
And day 36 of the Michael Jackson child sex trial. And is it possible the terrorist who murdered so many Americans September 11, including my friend, Barbara Olsen, can save his own skin and escape the death penalty?

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

Zacarias Moussaoui, authorities say he was the 20th hijacker on September 11th, but they stopped him, caught him in the nick of time. Now a judge is ready to accept Moussaoui`s sweet plea deal where he could get life behind bars. And who pays for his room and board? You, me, the taxpayer.

And imagine someone you love, they go out on a date and they never come home. It`s eight weeks and counting, still no trace of Richard Petrone and his girlfriend, Danielle Imbo.

But first, was there a lockdown on Michael Jackson`s boy accuser at Neverland? With us tonight in West Tampa, Florida, defense attorney Joe Episcopo, taking, of course, the defense side. In Atlanta, defense attorney Renee Rockwell. Here in New York, former prosecutor Lisa Pinto and psychologist Dr. Anne Renee Testa.

But first, to Santa Maria, California, and "Celebrity Justice" correspondent Jane Velez-Mitchell.

Hello, friend. I`m almost afraid to ask. What happened in court today?

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Oh, it`s wild as usually here at Santa Maria court, Nancy. A fascinating day of testimony. A local cop who moonlighted as a Neverland security guard testified that in early 2003 he saw, at the security office in Neverland, a sign that said the accuser`s name and right next to it an order, "Not allowed off property."

Now, that, of course, dovetails very neatly with the prosecution`s theory that there was a conspiracy to hold this family captive and hostage at Neverland. However, on cross-examination, the same witness did admit it was general policy not to let youngsters just go off the property willy- nilly unsupervised, especially if they were there without a parent.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Yes, that`s right, Jane Velez-Mitchell. Don`t want little boys running away willy-nilly from Michael Jackson. We couldn`t have that.

OK, go ahead. Just keep them there.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, the jury is going to have to decide...

GRACE: Let`s keep them locked in.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... was this a safety measure?

GRACE: Don`t let them out, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Beg your pardon?

GRACE: Let`s keep them locked in Neverland. Don`t let them out.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Where would they go? It`s five miles to the nearest town anyway.

GRACE: They could make a run for it. Go ahead.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I mean, I guess the jury is going to have to decide what we`re talking about. Was it a safety measure? Was it a sinister plot?

And you know, this is a very funny aside, but just moments before we went on the air, I saw two very recognizable figures literally power- walking by. It was defense attorney Tom Mesereau and his other attorney Susan Yu in exercise clothes doing a power-walk around the court house. How do you like that?

GRACE: Well, I like it. Maybe they`re trying to walk off the tension.

Jane Velez-Mitchell, a safety measure for who?

What Jane is telling us tonight was that it was posted for this little boy accuser not to be allowed to leave Neverland, Michael Jackson`s home.

Now, a safety measure for who, the boy or Michael Jackson?

Next question, Jane, were there any other boys on that list or just this one?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, there were other boys. There was a young boy -- I don`t want to reveal his name, because we haven`t been doing that. But a relative of one of the alleged unindicted co-conspirators, a youngster who was there a lot of the time when the accuser and his siblings were there.

So, yes, there were other children present, as well. Why was this boy selected? Why was the accuser`s name there and not the other children, is your point. And it`s a very good point, and one that certainly might not be lost on the jury.

GRACE: Yes, maybe Jackson wasn`t concerned about the safety of other people at Neverland. They were more concerned about the safety of this particular boy.

Jane Velez-Mitchell, take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MACAULAY CULKIN, ACTOR: Nothing happened. You know, I mean nothing, really. We played video games, you know. You know, we played at the amusement park.

LARRY KING, HOST: Did you sleep on the bed?

CULKIN: They go, oh, you slept in the same bedroom as him. It`s like, I don`t think you understand. Michael Jackson`s bedroom is two stories. And it has three like bathrooms and this and that. So when I slept in his bedroom, yes, but you have to understand the whole scenario.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Child star Macaulay Culkin. It is rumored that he was possibly molested by Michael Jackson. He denied it on "LARRY KING LIVE."

Jane Velez-Mitchell, sources are reporting tonight that Macaulay Culkin will, in fact, be a defense witness. Have you heard that? Is there any truth to it?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, certainly, we have heard -- "Celebrity Justice" has reported -- that if he does not volunteer to testify, that they want him so badly, the defense does, that they will subpoena him. And since he says nothing happened to me, he is not a victim of a sex crime, he`s just an adult man who has been subpoenaed or will be possibly subpoenaed to testify.

So it`s quite possible that, yes, he will take the stand. And what better way for the defense to open up its case than with this child star, now an adult man, saying nothing happened to me, especially when the prosecution has brought on witness after witness, saying, "I saw Michael Jackson do something, molest and fondle this particular boy"? That would be a very dramatic way for the defense to start its case in about a week.

GRACE: So, Jane Velez-Mitchell, were there witnesses that stated Macaulay Culkin was molested or fondled by Jackson?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. That was part of the whole past acts part of this case, which is wrapping up. There were witnesses who took the stand and said they saw that.

GRACE: You know, very interesting, Joe Episcopo, that the defense would consider calling Macaulay Culkin. I guess that the prosecution brought it up to start with. The door has been open. But normally the defense can`t bring in, for instance, other people that have been around Jackson that he didn`t molest. That`s not the point of the prosecution. That`s normally not allowed.

Did the prosecution make a boo-boo by bringing in a witness that claimed they saw Macaulay Culkin get molested?

JOE EPISCOPO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think they made a lot of mistakes like that, because they`re not able to prove even the other instances. Maybe the 1990 case where they had one victim testify. But the 1993 case, they haven`t been able to bring in any victims. And it looks like they can`t prove that.

Of course, that`s not what this trial is about. It`s about the 2003 case, which they`re having a lot of trouble proving. So I think they`ve made some mistakes. And I guess they`re just letting it all hang out and let the jury decide.

GRACE: Well, I was specifically asking you, before you started that wonderful closing argument, I was asking you about Macaulay Culkin.

EPISCOPO: Yes.

GRACE: Did the state screw up by bringing in a witness that claims he saw Culkin get molested when Culkin either refuses to remember it, doesn`t remember it, has blocked it, or it didn`t happen? That`s what he`s going to say on the stand.

EPISCOPO: Well, of course, it`s a screw-up. I mean, what else could it be? He`s supposed to be the victim, and he`s saying it didn`t happen. What are they going to do? Is the prosecution now going to impeach their alleged victim? I would like to see that.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER ACCUSED OF MOLESTATION: Well, what`s wrong with sharing your bed? I didn`t say I slept in the bed. Even if I did sleep in the bed, it`s OK. I am not going to do anything sexual to a child. It`s not where my heart is. I will slit my wrists first.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: It`s not his heart that I`m worried about. That was from Michael Jackson`s first public response to the child molestation charges.

Here in the studio with me, Dr. Anne Renee Testa. Let`s talk about Macaulay Culkin. He can be a torpedo in the state`s case. A witness has come on and said they saw -- jump in if I`m wrong, Jane Velez-Mitchell -- Macaulay Culkin being fondled when he was a little boy.

What were they doing, Jane? Were they playing a video game, were they moon-walking? What was it?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, this was the majordomo who was delivering the French fries at 3:00 in the morning and he said he went in the arcade and that Michael Jackson had one hand around Macaulay Culkin and the other hand was in his pants, around his crotch area, and that the boy was distracted, because he was watching and playing the video game.

So, remember, this is a witness who will be talking about something that happened many, years ago when he was a child. And it`s possible that it could be argued he wasn`t aware of what was going on at the time.

DR. ANNE RENEE TESTA, PSYCHOLOGIST: The chef said that he almost dropped the French fries...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Exactly.

TESTA: ... when he saw that, OK?

GRACE: Well, you know, I would think I would remember if I was playing a video game and somebody stuck their hand down my pants.

TESTA: But he does remember.

GRACE: But this is a little boy.

TESTA: Nancy, he does remember. But he`s in denial or, you know, as that song goes, "Friendship, friendship just a perfect blend-ship," you know? Maybe he needs it so badly, that he wants to be Michael Jackson`s friend instead of actually seeing what Michael Jackson really did to him.

GRACE: So you`re saying...

TESTA: You would be on his "mmm" list.

GRACE: You know, what do you think about this repressed memory theory of child molestation?

TESTA: Well, in my practice, I`ve seen it happen where they`ll say, you know, I can`t remember when I was 8- or 9-years-old. When they tell me that, I know that has something to do with child molestation. I know that for a fact.

Now, I somehow believe that he knows that it happened, because you can go back with a patient. You can go back with them. I`ve done it.

GRACE: You know, speaking of...

TESTA: Is that where he`s holding his genitals, checking himself out?

GRACE: Well, very quickly to you -- hold that thought, Doctor.

Lisa Pinto, my question to you is, speaking of the celebrity of Macaulay Culkin, remember at the beginning of this case, you couldn`t go to any event -- not me, because I was working -- but at all the red-carpet events, at all the celeb functions, celebrities would grab the microphone and go, "Peace out, Michael. We`re behind you. You`re innocent."

Where are they? They`re not on row one.

LISA PINTO, FORMER PROSECUTOR: And all the promises that Mesereau made us, Nancy, about how George Lopez would say that the mother was a grifter. Well, gee, George Lopez didn`t say that. George Lopez said the father was the bad guy.

Where is Chris Tucker? Where are all these people?

But I think that the issue with Macaulay Culkin, if you watch that LARRY KING interview, Nancy, he was looking all over the place, but at Larry. He was laughing nervously. I mean, if you think about it as a prosecutor, when you cross-examine a witness, that`s powerful stuff in closing argument, right?

GRACE: Rule one: When you ask someone a question and they immediately look away, there`s a problem.

TESTA: That`s right. That`s right.

GRACE: Quick break, everybody. We are live in Santa Maria, California, and the latest on the Michael Jackson child sex trial. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: One time I asked to use the restroom and they said, "Sure." It was right around the corner there. Once I went in the restroom, they locked me in there for like 45 minutes. There was doo-doo and feces thrown all over the walls, the floor, the ceiling, and it stunk so bad.

And one of the policeman came by the window and he made a sarcastic remark. He said, "Does it smell good enough for you in there? How do you like the smell? Is it good?"

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Oh, the pain, the humiliation of a stinky, public bathroom. We`ve all been there.

Hey, remember the testimony at trial by one of the maids that she had to go from minimum wage and go clean Jackson`s monkey poopy off the wall and change the monkey`s diapers? Minimum wage, are you kidding? That sound that you just heard from Michael Jackson was from his first public response to these child molestation charges.

I`m going to go down to Atlanta to defense attorney Renee Rockwell.

Renee, for a long time, you wouldn`t even defend child molestation cases. They wore you down.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Still won`t. Still won`t.

GRACE: I thought you handled a couple.

ROCKWELL: No, never.

GRACE: What about that child rapist that ate the onion sandwich? Didn`t I see you defending him?

ROCKWELL: He wasn`t a child molester, Nancy, you know that. They acquitted him on that charge.

GRACE: I don`t think so, with those big coke-bottle glasses. They so convicted him. I got you. You defended him.

Will Jackson have to take the stand?

ROCKWELL: Rule number one, Nancy, what is it? You never let your client take the stand. What`s rule number two, though? A jury wants you to get on the stand. They`re going to want to see Michael Jackson take the stand, look at him and say, "I didn`t do it. They`re after it for the money."

What do you think? I mean, right now, the way that the state`s case is going, I don`t think that the defense needs to put him on the stand.

GRACE: Just because the mother had a bad time on cross-exam? You`re kidding me.

ROCKWELL: It was a nightmare, Nancy. She was kidnapped, right? Where did they go? They went to Banana Republic. Now, this is going to all come out in the defense...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Well, I`ve been held against my will in Banana Republic several times.

(LAUGHTER)

ROCKWELL: Can I finish? Banana Republic, Wilson`s Leather, Pacific Sunwear, GAP, Jockey, Anchor Blue, Robinson`s May, Abercrombie Fitch, where else? Ralph`s supermarket, Black Angus. Is that a kidnapping?

Then the next day, Foot Locker, Robinson`s May, another Anchor Blue. They went to Starbucks. I mean, they just ate their way through this credit card. I just can`t imagine that the defense isn`t just going to go crazy on this when they say that she was being held captive. No, I don`t think so.

GRACE: You know, I knew there was something about you I didn`t like all these years. Now I know what it is. You study the facts.

Go ahead, Lisa Pinto.

PINTO: Well, it`s not kidnapping. It`s unlawful imprisonment.

But what about this poster board, Renee and Nancy? What about this issue that the boy was not allowed to leave the ranch? And on cross (UNINTELLIGIBLE) pointed out also there was a log book entry from February 19th that this kid and his brother were not allowed to leave.

What do you call that? I don`t care about the mother`s leg wax and her shopping trips. She wasn`t the point of interest here.

GRACE: Oh, I have something to add.

What about this, Jane Velez-Mitchell? You`ve been in the courtroom every day. You`ve heard the testimony. It was a long time before the mom went "Ding! I think my son`s being molested."

It was actually after the Bashir documentary, if I have got my timeline straight. So for a long period of time, while they were enjoying Neverland and Jackson`s wallet, the mom said she had no idea. So of course, she would leave and come back.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Look, Nancy, there`s no doubt that the accuser`s mother`s testimony was a disaster for the prosecution. Most of the conspiracy comes from her mouth. And the general consensus here is that the prosecution is going to have to come up with some kind of bombshell witness to corroborate some of this conspiracy or the conspiracy is curtains.

Now, "Celebrity Justice" has learned that there will be a bombshell witness next week named Rudy Provencio. He was a friend of one of the alleged unindicted co-conspirators Mark Schaffel. He was a journal-taker. He apparently took a journal.

He says, our sources say, during this entire time of the alleged conspiracy -- he also listened in, he said, to phone calls from Schaffel`s office in which he heard on the speaker voice what he thought was Michael Jackson`s voice talking about this alleged conspiracy.

And we`re told -- our sources tell us -- that the defense will counter that it wasn`t Michael Jackson talking, that it was one of the alleged unindicted co-conspirators, Frank Tyson, imitating Michael Jackson`s voice. And we`ve already heard in court that he is a very good imitator of Michael Jackson`s voice.

So that`s another crazy twist. We`ll have to see what happens next week.

GRACE: But why would he imitate Michael Jackson on a phone call, a private phone call, and outline this conspiracy? That`s total B.S.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, the defense is trying to separate all the alleged unindicted co-conspirators from Michael Jackson, sort of like unhook that caboose and let it float away. And they`re trying to portray a picture of a group of people who were sort of working overtime and trying to ingratiate themselves with Michael Jackson, when in fact, they claim the superstar didn`t know anything about this or didn`t know a lot about it.

GRACE: Joe Episcopo, this whole conspiracy theory was helped along in court when surveillance tape was brought in. Apparently some of Jackson`s posse, Michael Jackson`s bodyguard elite, had gone out of Neverland and was taping the movements and the locations of the mom and the boy.

They`ve got the boy in his little school outfit going in and out of school, a grainy video. They`ve got the mom at home, coming out of her apartment, sitting on the balcony. Joe, that`s not normal.

EPISCOPO: No, it`s not normal. But is it enough to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt? That`s the problem.

Sure, it doesn`t look good. In fact, didn`t they have one of the school teachers come up and ask this guy what you`re doing?

GRACE: What are you doing?

EPISCOPO: And he put the camera down on the floor. I mean, clearly, they were surveilling the kid. Does that translate into...

GRACE: But why? Why would they be surveilling him, Joe Episcopo? Take off your defense hat just a moment. Tell me, why would the biggest pop star in the world be surveilling a little boy, a little school boy, in his little school boy outfit?

EPISCOPO: Because he likes him. He wants to see pictures of him.

GRACE: OK, you know what? That`s sick.

Quick break. We`re going to go to "Trial Tracking": A new law inspired by the kidnapping and murder of 9-year-old Jessica Lunsford moves to the Florida senate. The law requires sex offenders convicted of molesting children under 12 be sentenced to a minimum 25 behind bars, a maximum life.

Molesters who do not receive life in prison will be monitored by a GPS system for the rest of their life. I only want to know, where are they attaching it?

The Florida house passed the bill just two days after a sex offender was charged in the kidnap and murder of 13-year-old Sarah Lunde.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHARLIE CRIST, FLORIDA ATTORNEY GENERAL: I mean, damn it, it`s time to act. And that`s what has to happen. And forgive my language, but, you know, these poor people have suffered. And I`m tired of reading the headlines. And I`m tired of hearing about what Florida is doing. And it`s got to change. It`s got to stop.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Thank God somebody is not just talking about it, they`re doing something about it. Florida senate, are you listening?

And, tonight, we need your help. Kentucky police believe 16-year-old Janet Quijano was kidnapped from her school bus stop by five men in a red van. Janet, 4`11", 85 pounds. Look at this little girl, 4`11", 85 pounds, black hair and eyes. She is wearing a red sweater and jeans.

If you have any information on this girl, Janet Quijano, please call 1-877-AMBER-17.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: Parents have power over children. They feel they have to do what their parents say. But money is the root of all evil, as you know. The love of money is the root of all evil.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is from Michael Jackson`s first public response to these child molestation charges.

Straight out to the courthouse, standing by, Jane Velez-Mitchell from "Celebrity Justice."

Jane, tell me it`s not true that Michael Jackson wore sunglasses in court in front of this jury.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, he has in the past. And in fact, I think he may have those special glasses that are sunglasses outside and then they gradually become regular glasses inside. Also, one of the jurors was wearing very dark sunglasses.

I know at one point, the D.A., Tom Sneddon, had objected to Jackson wearing the arm band and sunglasses. But it didn`t seem to go anywhere. I think the judge thought there were bigger problems here.

GRACE: Joe Episcopo, do you get the sense that Jackson was trying to hide something from the jury?

EPISCOPO: No, I don`t get the sense of that at all. He`s just being Michael Jackson. He`s being that...

GRACE: Have you ever allowed your client to go in front of a jury wearing a pair of these?

EPISCOPO: No.

GRACE: No. I already know the answer.

EPISCOPO: Absolutely not. No. And I don`t think you should do a television interview with sunglasses on, even if it`s sunlit outside.

GRACE: And so what about it?

Renee Rockwell, it would be a cold day in you-know-where before you would let your client go into a courtroom in front of a jury and wear a pair of these. No way. I even make my witnesses take off some of their jewelry if they had on too much jewelry. If their skirt was too short, I was like, "You go back home and change clothes."

ROCKWELL: And, Nancy, what do they tell you? You go to court. You dress for court like you would to go to church, for a job interview. You want to look innocent.

There you go. You don`t want to have -- but this is California. You have all the costumes, the...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: I don`t think you`ve got all that in Santa Maria. I think this is a blue-collar, working-class neighborhood like we grew up in. I don`t think this is the glitz and glamour of Hollywood.

ROCKWELL: But that`s what it`s become, Nancy. That`s what it`s become.

And by the way, I like the sunglasses. You look like a movie star.

GRACE: Thank you, Renee.

OK, quick break, everybody. Michael Jackson coming in the courtroom with a new military armband and a pair of sunglasses today.

As we go to break, I want to remind you, on a serious note, we here at NANCY GRACE want desperately to help solve unsolved homicides. We want to help find missing people. Help us.

Tonight, take a look at Christine Eatin. She disappeared in 1971, 34 years ago. Can you imagine the heartbreak of her family? She was 19 years old at the time. Police found her car, the doors locked, her belongings scattered all over the pavement.

If you have any information on this woman -- please look, Christine Eatin -- call the Carole Sund Carrington Foundation, 888-813-8389. There could be a reward involved in connection with information on Christine Eatin. Please, help us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)

[Update from NANCY GRACE for April 22, 2005, CNNHN:

GRACE: I want to clear up an issue. On Wednesday night's show in a discussion about the disappearance of Danielle Imbo and Richard Petrone, there were statements that could be interpreted suggesting that Danielle`s estranged husband, Joe Imbo, was a suspect or otherwise involved in this couple's disappearance.

As far as we know, no press, no police, no other source have linked the husband to the couple's disappearance. He is not a suspect. We regret any misunderstanding that resulted.

On a further note, CNN spoke to Joe Imbo's mother, Pat Cuomo (ph) and her husband who happens to be a retired police officer, Mike Cuomo. Both confirmed Mr. Imbo's alibi. He was with them at police detective Alex Schuerer`s (ph) home the night the couple disappeared.]


(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CRAIG MITNICK, PETRONE FAMILY ATTORNEY: On the night of February 19, a little over one month ago, Danielle Imbo and Rich Petrone met another couple for several drinks at Abilene`s bar and grill in Philadelphia. They left that bar and grill at approximately 11:45 p.m. and have vanished from the face of the earth from that point.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You know, it`s incredible. He`s right. It`s as if they vanished into thin air. No car, no use of the credit card, no ATM use, no cell phone use. Right, Ellie (ph)? Nothing. Gone, not even a trace.

Tonight in Philadelphia, Richard Petrone`s mother is with us, Marge Petrone, and Richard Petrone`s cousin, Donna Valente. Donna is heading up the search.

Thank you for being with us, ladies.

But, first, to "Philadelphia Inquirer" writer Natalie Pompilio.

Natalie, it`s hard for me. I`m so used to trying to piece together clues and hope that these clues point me in a direction to solve a murder mystery or a kidnapping mystery. What can you tell us tonight?

NATALIE POMPILIO, "THE PHILADELPHIA INQUIRER": About the search itself?

GRACE: No, no, the circumstances regarding the disappearance.

It`s my understanding that this girl was dating two men and suddenly decided or decided that she wanted to break up with both of them. Next thing you know, she goes missing.

POMPILIO: I don`t know if we can say that she was dating both men. What we do know is that she was estranged from her husband and that she had been dating Rich Petrone.

GRACE: OK.

POMPILIO: We have -- her friends have said that she told both men that she didn`t want to see them anymore, but it`s all secondhand. We haven`t confirmed that.

GRACE: Well, I would think that her friends, her best friends, would have her best interests at heart and not misconstrue anything she said.

My question to you, Natalie, is, how much before the disappearance did she decide she wanted space from these two guys, the guy she had dated and her ex-husband?

POMPILIO: Well, the friends have said it was shortly before. But we have to consider she did meet with Richie Petrone that night. Police said that evening was cordial, casual and he was going to drive her home. There`s no indication that there was tension between them. And her husband is the caretaker of her child right now and does have her family`s support.

GRACE: Let`s take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MITNICK: Neither Danielle, nor Rich were intoxicated. Neither of them have had any prior contact or criminal background with law enforcement. And both of them have had constant contact with their family members in the past, including Danielle`s 20-month -- year-old son and Rich`s 14-year-old daughter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You know, that`s a very interesting point he brought up.

To Marge Petrone -- this is the mother of missing Richie Petrone. It`s hard for me to understand totally vanishing into thin air. It`s not a good prognosis. You would think that, if someone had taken then, they would have -- the car would have been found somewhere, the ATM, the credit card, the cell phone, some trace that someone either had them or their belongings. What do you think tonight?

MARGE PETRONE, MOTHER OF RICH PETRONE: I just -- I don`t know what to think. I haven`t seen my son. Today, it`s two months. He would never leave his daughter. Neither would Danielle ever leave her son.

I can`t tell you the heartbreak and the sadness that we feel. And I know someone has to know something. Someone had to see something. So, I would just beg anyone, you know, to come forward. There is a reward, a substantial amount of money involved. And I would pray that that`s what they would do, come forward And, if they saw something or they know something, to tell us.

GRACE: My question to you, Marge, number one, my sympathy goes out to you.

PETRONE: Thank you.

MATTHEWS: I know you must be so tortured.

PETRONE: You can`t imagine.

GRACE: Richard and Danielle had recently broken up. Why?

PETRONE: I just think -- her husband had returned from Georgia and there was a lot of pressure. And I think she just needed time to herself. But that night, I do know they wanted to be together. I was with Danielle earlier for dinner. We were all together for dinner.

And they were meeting people at Abilene`s. He was going back to her house and everything was fine.

GRACE: Then vanishing into thin air.

To Dr. Anne-Renee Testa, if this were by force, you have to take into account that the perpetrator in this case would not only want to kidnap these two, possibly kill these two, but hide that. If this were a random killing, very typically, statistics show the bodies are not hidden. The victims are not hidden.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: For instance, in the Laci Peterson case, it`s because it wasn`t random. The bodies were hidden. So, what does this say to you?

ANNE-RENEE TESTA, PSYCHOLOGIST: I think it has to do the estranged husband, Nancy.

GRACE: He says he`s passed a lie detector test.

TESTA: He says he`s passed a lie detector test, but it seems to me that they`ve had heated arguments. I don`t know what her relationship with Richard was, Danielle with Richard. I have no idea what their relationship is like.

And I wonder whether Natalie has any information on that.

Natalie, do you?

POMPILIO: On the ex-husband? They say -- oh, sorry, the current husband. They say they have no suspects right now.

GRACE: Well, you know what? They were saying that right up until the time they pulled Scott Peterson off the road, threw him down and handcuffed him. They were saying, he`s not a person of interest, but we are seeking the death penalty.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Lisa Pinto, what do you make of it?

LISA PINTO, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, it`s very early at this stage. But the things that I`d be looking into, Nancy, are the fact that he apparently made alleged threatening...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Who? Who?

(CROSSTALK)

PINTO: The ex -- the husband supposedly threatened the boyfriend. So, that`s something I would flesh out.

His alibi, does it check out? Tell me his alibi isn`t his 1-and-a- half-year-old child, because that`s what I`ve heard so far. And if his family needs -- his family needs to be questioned at great length to find out where he really was.

GRACE: That`s a great point.

Donna Valente is Richard Petrone`s cousin. And she is heading up the search.

What is the husband`s alibi for that night?

DONNA VALENTE, HEADING SEARCH FOR MISSING COUSIN: Are you asking me?

GRACE: Yes, Donna Valente.

VALENTE: Nancy, I`m not sure. You would have to ask Marge. I`m not really involved in...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: You know, I`ll do that.

Marge, what is the alibi for the husband?

PETRONE: From what I understand, he took his child to Tom`s River and was there for the night with his child in Tom`s River.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Where in Tom`s River?

PETRONE: I don`t know.

As far as the lie detector test is concerned, I have never been told that he passed the lie detector test from the police. I mean, as far as -- they have not released those -- the results of that lie detector test to anyone, I don`t think.

GRACE: Natalie Pompilio, what is the husband`s -- I want to say ex- husband, but they were not divorced. They were estranged. What is his alibi?

POMPILIO: That`s what we`ve heard, too, that he says he was with his child with family in New Jersey.

GRACE: How old is the child?

POMPILIO: A toddler, 2 years old.

GRACE: Doing what in New Jersey?

POMPILIO: Staying with family overnight. We don`t really have the details from him or from the police.

GRACE: Lisa?

PINTO: So, elderly parents and a 1-and-a-half-year-old child can account for his whereabouts from midnight until 2:00 in the morning? This, I would like to understand.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: But, on the other hand, don`t you think, Dr. Anne-Renee Testa, that, if they saw him approaching them in the car or outside the bar, they would not have gone along willingly?

TESTA: No.

GRACE: There had to be a witness to see something if he is, in fact, involved.

TESTA: Yes.

GRACE: He says he has passed a lie detector test.

TESTA: That doesn`t matter to me. I don`t really know about the lie detector test, number one. And, number two, there are ways of luring people away in a very innocent way, Nancy, where they just get them, you know, and they can very easily kidnap somebody.

GRACE: Let me quickly go out to Natalie Pompilio. She`s a staff writer with "The Philadelphia Inquirer."

The husband has not been coming forward very often. He`s not making pleas on behalf of his wife. Did he at the beginning or did he clam up on day one?

POMPILIO: He has made pleas. He was at a public press conference that both families were at, the one you`re showing the footage of, but he hasn`t really been in the forefront, no.

GRACE: OK.

Let me go to Renee Rockwell.

Renee, how would you analyze this?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I just want to mention one thing that Ms. Petrone said. And I know that she`s got to be heartbroken.

But with no evidence, no clues or anything, surely, anybody that has any faint suspicion that they may know something, even if you think it`s not important, surely, you all are asking for any information along those lines. Is that right, Ms. Petrone?

PETRONE: Oh, yes, please, anyone. Even it`s -- as insignificant as it may seem, it could be very important to us.

ROCKWELL: In other words, nothing should be ignored?

PETRONE: Nothing.

ROCKWELL: Now, another thing, Nancy, and you asked me to comment on the husband`s behavior.

Remember Susan Smith, the young lady that drowned her two children?

GRACE: Oh, yes.

ROCKWELL: Of course, they made the TV appearances with all the crying and the moaning and groaning. I`m not so concerned with how people react, because, believe me, the police are looking at every movement that that husband is making.

I`m not impressed if he did, in fact, pass a lie detector test, Nancy. You know those are not reliable all the time. What I would be interested in is what the alibi witnesses say.

GRACE: You mean the 2-year-old?

(CROSSTALK)

ROCKWELL: Well, and his elderly parents, Nancy. They`ll pull them apart and separate them.

GRACE: Oh, Please.

Joe Episcopo, the parents are not going to come in and rat out their son. Not going to happen.

JOE EPISCOPO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It`s my understanding that another alibi witness is a police detective that was there with him also. And another thing, I disagree on the polygraph. A properly administered polygraph is about 95 percent accurate.

GRACE: Well, the key, the operative word, properly administered.

EPISCOPO: Of course.

GRACE: We`ve got to find out not only who administered it, but what were the questions asked? That is so incredibly important.

Guys, we have got to take a break. Again, if we could show the shot of the missing couple, Elizabeth (ph), and the person in charge, heading up the search, Donna Valente, Donna Valente.

Take a look.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: No one will ever forget 9/11, September the 11th. I was here in New York that day. I remember this well. Could it be that the 20th hijacker, the so-called 20th hijacker, Zacarias Moussaoui, is going to take a plea deal by which he could avoid the death penalty?

Tonight, here in New York City, CNN reporter Deborah Feyerick.

Welcome, Deborah. Bring us up to speed.

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Nancy, actually, what he has decided to do, this is a complete reversal of everything he has been saying for the last three years. He now wants to plead guilty and actually roll the dice and say, OK. If it`s the death penalty, I`ll take the death penalty.

So, that is a huge change for him. He has all along said he had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks. Now he is basically going to plead guilty now and say, yes, he did know about the 9/11 attacks and that`s what prosecutors have charged him with. And that`s what he`s willing to go forward to. It`s not a deal. But he just wants to plead guilty now.

GRACE: So, the bottom line, Deborah, is, he`s going to plead guilty to the guilt innocence phase and then move forward and contest the death penalty, right?

FEYERICK: We don`t even know if he`s going to contest the death penalty, because he`s said he`s just going to plead based on the circumstances that the government has laid out.

The government said they would never, ever take the death penalty off the table. So, they kept it there. And now he`s willing to go along with that. So, he`s cut no deal. He`s willing to take his chances. So, when a jury is called, if, in fact, a jury is ultimately called in the death penalty phase, he`s willing to see what they have to say about this.

GRACE: Well, I got to tell you, this is one kooky judge. I hope the judge is listening tonight.

On 9/11, September 11, we lost a very important member of the CNN family, a regular commentator on "Larry King," a friend of mine.

Elizabeth, could you roll that, please? This is a shot of Barbara here. Always had -- always had -- she must be in mid-sentence right there, because she always had a smile on her face.

Lisa Pinto, my concern is really the judge in this case. What is she going to do? Do you have...

PINTO: Scares me.

GRACE: Do you have concern about this judge and why?

PINTO: Well, she`s a Clinton appointee, Nancy, to start with.

GRACE: That doesn`t bother me.

PINTO: Well, the issue is, she stopped libraries that tried to filter porn off their computers. She decided that she didn`t like that. She thought that was a restraint on free speech. So that`s one strike against her.

And, in this case, she`s handcuffed the government`s hands. She told them at one point Moussaoui wanted to question people like Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the guy that was arrested in Pakistan, al Qaeda mastermind. And she said, you know what? You have to give Moussaoui access to him. And the government is saying, no, this is a matter of national security. There`s no reason for him to interview. So, she said, fine, no death penalty, and she cut them off.

GRACE: But she tried to tell the state, Renee Rockwell, that they could not seek the death penalty on the 20th hijacker of 9/11.

ROCKWELL: That`s right, Nancy. Now, the government appealed that to the Court of Appeal. And the Court of Appeal is allowing the death penalty. It was appealed yet again to the Supreme Court. And the Supreme Court has upheld the Court of Appeal. So, therefore, the death penalty is back on the table. And you know that the government is seeking it.

GRACE: Well, how is this going to break down, Joe Episcopo? We`re talking about the 20th hijacker of 9/11, claimed thousands of American lives.

EPISCOPO: He`s not going to get the death penalty. It`s already been shown in two separate juries, Oklahoma City and New York, that, unless you can show you`re directly involved in the killing, the jury will not vote unanimously for the death penalty.

And here`s one other thing. Moussaoui can use Osama bin Laden as a witness.

(CROSSTALK)

PINTO: Joe, this is a man who has pledged his allegiance to Osama bin Laden, who says F-you, America, when he sees the World Trade Center site, who got money wired from Germany by the same man that wired money to the hijackers. What more do you need here?

In fact, there`s a -- this man`s fingerprints are on a Western Union receipt that was sent to Moussaoui. He bought knives. He trained at a gym. He learned how to fly. He studied crop dusters. This man was part of the plot. Let him go -- get a needle in his arm.

EPISCOPO: Look, let me finish, please. Thank you.

First of all, he can use Osama bin Laden`s own words as a mitigating factor. Remember, bin Laden said after the attack that a lot of the attackers had no idea they were on a suicide mission. They thought they were just taking airplanes.

(CROSSTALK)

PINTO: Oh, come on. You don`t buy that, Joe.

EPISCOPO: That`s right.

PINTO: When you fly an airplane into a building, you don`t think you`re going to hurt Americans? You don`t think you`re going to take an American life? I cannot listen to this.

(CROSSTALK)

EPISCOPO: Lisa, calm down. Come on.

PINTO: Calm -- you know what?

EPISCOPO: Let me tell you something. They were not aware they were going to crash into buildings. They knew they were seizing an airplane. Do you understand?

TESTA: What was their goal? Where were they going?

EPISCOPO: Hostages, money.

GRACE: OK, guys. OK, guys.

The reality is, there`s a possibility with this judge in charge of the case that Moussaoui could escape the death penalty.

As we go to break, let`s go to tonight`s all-points bulletin. FBI and law enforcement across this country on the lookout for Gary Lee St. John, wanted for allegedly committing sex acts on a 6-year-old girl in Reno, Nevada in `98. The FBI says he`s considered armed and dangerous. St. John, 64 years old, 5` 10``, between 180 and 195, brown hair, hazel eyes, scar under the right ear.

If you have any information about this man, Gary Lee St. John, call the FBI, 702-385-1281.

Now, local news is next for some of you. But we`ll be right back.

And, remember, live coverage of the Michael Jackson trial tomorrow, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, on Court TV`s "Closing Arguments."

Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LARRY KING LIVE," JULY 20, 2001)

BARBARA OLSON, SEPTEMBER 11 VICTIM: And if Gary Condit is innocent, he`s fine. He says no big deal. If he`s not innocent, this starts scaring him, because then he finds out they know a lot more information than I know. Right now, these Web sites, the police is letting some out. They would like the public to help. They`re holding some back. If, indeed, Gary Condit has information, he`s got to be worried.

(CROSSTALK)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Barbara Olson.

I can guarantee you, on 9/11, she went down fighting. That`s one thing I can guarantee you about her.

Very quickly, back to CNN reporter Deborah Feyerick.

Again, Deborah, welcome.

At first, police -- well, law enforcement believed Moussaoui was the 20th hijacker. Did they back off that?

FEYERICK: They absolutely backed off of that. What they really thought is that, perhaps in the beginning, that what he may have been was a pilot for a fifth plane, a fifth plane that may have been intended to hit the White House.

But Moussaoui, in the public imagination, became sort of identified as the 20th hijacker, but, actually, there was a man, a man by the name of Qahtani, who was stopped in Florida in August of 2001. And it is believed that he was the one who was supposed to be the sort of missing hijacker on that Pennsylvania plane that did go down.

And, Nancy, just to fill you in on two big things that happened today, is, the judge actually met with Moussaoui in the Virginia courthouse and she spoke to him, because she wanted to make sure that, if he was going to plead guilty, he was not going to go back on his word, he was not going to go change his mind, as he did in the summer of 2002.

And then another big thing is that, at the end of this session, she actually said that, in fact, he is competent, he is not crazy, and she would accept a guilty plea if he`s going to plead. However, she really wanted to make sure, because he has just turned the court into a circus on a number of occasions. And she wanted to make sure that that wasn`t going to happen again.

GRACE: But, Deborah Feyerick, if he pleads guilty, then what happens to the sentence? He can plead guilty. But who decides life or death? Does that have to go to a jury?

FEYERICK: Under the law, yes, it does have to go to a jury.

However, both the defense lawyers, who he doesn`t even speak to -- he`s called them all kinds of names. He thinks that his own lawyers are trying to kill him. He has called them fat pigs. But they could waive the right to a jury, but the government would also have to agree to waive it as well.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: No way is the government going to leave it in the hands of this judge.

Deborah Feyerick, thank you, friend.

FEYERICK: Any time.

GRACE: I want to thank all of my guests tonight.

But, as always, my biggest thank you is to you for being with us, inviting all of us into your home.

Coming up, headlines from around the world. I`m Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight. Hope to see you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern.

Until then, good night, friend.

END


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