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NANCY GRACE

NANCY GRACE for March 23, 2005, CNNHN

Aired March 23, 2005 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, CNN HOST: Tonight, it is day six and still no food, no water for Terri Schiavo. Her family says she is fading away day by day, hour by hour. Schiavo`s family continues to fight, despite losing two consecutive appeals back-to-back in a federal courtroom. Next up, the Supremes. That`s right, the U.S. Supreme Court. But will there be time?
And on the other side of the country, Michael Jackson back in court today, where the star witness wasn`t a witness at all. It was Jackson`s extensive collection of porn.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. And I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

A blow to the prosecution in the Michael Jackson sex case. The trial judge will not allow the jury to see pornography found on Jackson`s computer, that`s right, his hard drive.

But first, Terri Schiavo`s family, the Schindlers, are battling to the bitter end, standing vigil at her bedside. Is the U.S. Supreme Court the last hope for them?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARY SCHINDLER, TERRI SCHIAVO`S MOTHER: All I can see is Terri`s face in front of me, dying, starving to death. Please, someone out there, stop this cruelty, stop the insanity. Please let my daughter live.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Tonight, from West Tampa, Florida, Terri Schiavo`s brother-in- law, Brian Schiavo; in Pinellas Park, Florida, the Schindler family religious advisor, Brother Paul O`Donnell; in Louisville, Kentucky, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary President Albert Mohler; and in New York, defense attorney Richard Herman.

But first to Atlanta and CNN medical reporter Sanjay Gupta.

Sanjay, explain to me, is she responsive? Does she recognize anything going on around her at all?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL REPORTER: Well, you know, first of all, I have never examined her. And I think that`s a really important point. A lot of people who are making comments about Terri Schiavo have in fact never examined Terri. Some of them have only looked at videotape. Some of them haven`t seen even those and still making comments about her.

What she appeared to be -- you know, we are seeing a very small vignette there. A lot of people have seen this, where she appears to be smiling in response to being talked to by her mother there. It`s hard to say.

Typically in a persistent vegetative state, Nancy, what people can have, is they can have sleep-wake cycles, they can open their eyes, close their eyes, they can have reflexes, which might include smiling, might include grimacing. If a loud noise is made on the right side of their head, they may turn their head to the right. They can still have all those things and still be in a persistent vegetative state. So what I`m seeing could be...

GRACE: Sanjay?

GUPTA: Yes.

GRACE: Sanjay, you don`t know. Nobody knows. So where does Congress get off poking their nose into this? If you`re a doctor -- you`re a doctor, right, a medical doctor -- and you don`t know, what do they know?

GUPTA: Well, I haven`t seen her. So there`s no way that I could know. Five neurologists have seen her. And I think it really gets into the gray area of what this is all about. This is a clinical diagnosis. There`s no blood test that`s going to tell you for sure. There`s no brain scan that`s going to tell you for sure that she`s in a persistent vegetative state.

So you are right. They don`t know for sure. It`s a very gray area of medicine.

GRACE: Let me go to Brian Schiavo, that is Michael Schiavo`s brother.

You know, today, Brian, the governor of Florida, Jeb Bush, came out and stated that there is new evidence that says Terri Schiavo is not in a persistent vegetative state, that she does has minimal consciousness. In other words, she can recognize her mother. She does know, to some small degree, what`s going on around her. What do you believe, Brian?

BRIAN SCHIAVO, MICHAEL SCHIAVO`S BROTHER: Well, I just visited with her the last two days. And I spent a lot of time with her. And I had a very good relationship with Terri. And I can tell you that she did not recognize me.

I was right in her face, moving about the room from different areas, calling her name. She seems to have just a, you know, the sleep-wake cycle, as you said. Sometimes her eyes could be open, and I`ll be talking with her. Sometimes I`ll be talking with her and her eyes will be closed. They`ll just close on me.

So, in my opinion, she did not recognize me at all. I will say Terri is very peaceful right now.

GRACE: Well, Brian, since her parents want so desperately to continue her feeding, she is not on a ventilator. She`s not on life support. Is simply feeding her, since they want that so desperately, why doesn`t your brother? He already has another woman. He has another family, I believe, children. Why doesn`t he let her parents take care of her?

B. SCHIAVO: Well, it`s not what her family wanted. It`s what Terri wanted. And that`s been adjudicated time, and time, and time again.

And it`s not about what the Schindlers want. You know, it is not really about what Mike wants. All he is doing is he is getting her wishes. He did it the right way. He went through the court system. And these are Terri`s wishes. And he is committed to making sure that her wishes are carried out.

GRACE: Is he the beneficiary in her will?

B. SCHIAVO: There is no will.

GRACE: Does he get anything monetarily if she dies?

B. SCHIAVO: Absolutely not.

GRACE: No life insurance?

B. SCHIAVO: No life insurance, nothing.

GRACE: No house?

B. SCHIAVO: No house, nothing. Despite what people are saying, there is nothing there.

I believe, according to Mike`s attorney, George Felos, there is $40,000 left. And that money, I believe, is going to go for court expenses.

GRACE: OK, guys. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

M. SCHINDLER: I understand that we only need one vote in the state senate to save my daughter. Please, senators, for the love of God, I`m begging you, don`t let my daughter die of thirst.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Brother Paul O`Donnell, I can hardly stand to see a mother begging like that on TV for her daughter not to starve to death. Sir, do you think there`s any chance that Terri could recover, or even understand, or know anything that`s going on around her?

BROTHER PAUL O`DONNELL, SCHINDLER FAMILY SPIRITUAL ADVISER: I do believe Terri understands. I am not a medical doctor. But I have cared for people in persistent vegetative states.

And contrary to what your guests have said, people in persistent vegetative states don`t follow commands like Terri does. And we have 33 doctors, ten which are neurologists, that say that Terri is not in a persistent vegetative state.

Even the Department of Children and Families say that they have a physician that has examined all the medical records. And Terri is not in a persistent vegetative state.

But back to Mary Schindler. She just wants to love her daughter. And, you know, having a background in hospice care, when I cared for people that were dying, we would swab their mouths out with a mixture of hydrogen peroxide, and water, and saline to make them comfortable. The judge ordered that Terri can only have a dry q-tip.

Her mother, in the United States of America, can`t go into the room and offer her daughter an ice chip or swab out her mouth. Not only that, there`s an armed police officer at the door and at the side of Terri`s bed that has greater access to Terri Schiavo than her own mother.

GRACE: I`m going to go to Albert Mohler. He`s the president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.

Listen, Reverend, one thing I know I don`t want is a judge telling my family what to do. I know that much. But in this case, if she is in a vegetative state, how do you know what`s right and what`s wrong?

ALBERT MOHLER, PRESIDENT OF THE SOUTHERN BAPTIST THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY: Well, Nancy, I`d say right up front that, even if she is in a persistent vegetative state, I don`t believe she deserves to be starved to death and to die of dehydration. I mean, where did we come up with this definition of human life?

I think it`s a very unfortunate, but accurate at this point, judicial precedent that comes to that conclusion. But I think the courts are simply wrong.

There are multiple issues here. Number one, we have no confidence that Terri Schiavo`s in a persistent vegetative state. Again, if she were, I still would not allow her death by starvation. I wouldn`t disconnect her from hydration.

This is a human being. She is not on a ventilator. She is breathing on her own. She`s not brain dead. She is a human person. She deserves food and water.

The moment the courts decided that food and water amount to medical treatment, some horrible barrier was crossed that puts us on the wrong side of life. It puts this entire culture on a prejudice towards death. And what we see now, not only in Terri`s mother, but her entire family, and frankly this entire country, is a conscience that is torn, knowing that a woman is starving to death in Pinellas Park, Florida.

GRACE: Well, before we go to break, Brian Schiavo, this is Terri Schiavo`s husband`s brother. It`s her brother-in-law.

Brian, that doesn`t hurt you to hear them say they can`t even moisten her mouth, her dry mouth, as she`s laying there starving? Listen, I`m not saying I know what`s right or wrong here. But that hurts me to know this lady`s lying there starving to death and the mother can`t even put the saline on her mouth.

B. SCHIAVO: That`s totally wrong. I was just in there the other night. Her mouth is very moist. I was just in there the other night. The nurses came in and treated her mouth.

She has a sore on her mouth because she has an action with her mouth from the saliva leaking down her throat. Her jaw is in a consistent -- it almost looks like she`s smiling. And what she`s done is basically, from her top teeth hitting her bottom lip, she has developed a small sore. The nurses came in and treated that and put ointment all over her mouth. Her mouth is totally moist.

GRACE: Is that true, Paul O`Donnell?

O`DONNELL: I just want to know if her mouth is totally moist, will then Michael allow her mother to go in and do the same action? Will Michael allow her mother, or Terri`s mother, to be there to comfort her daughter?

B. SCHIAVO: You have to understand something, Father. Father, you have to understand something. This is not Michael that made these rules. This is Judge Greer. This is his...

O`DONNELL: That is not true.

B. SCHIAVO: Ha, OK.

O`DONNELL: That is not true.

B. SCHIAVO: Oh, it`s not Judge Greer`s order?

GRACE: Brian, my question to you is, if the mother wanted to come in, would Michael stop her?

B. SCHIAVO: To come into the room?

GRACE: Yes. And take care of Terri, her daughter, as she is dying.

B. SCHIAVO: And to do what with her, though? Just to swab...

GRACE: Comfort her, comfort her, swab her mouth.

B. SCHIAVO: She is allowed in whenever she wants to be in.

GRACE: Is that true, O`Donnell?

B. SCHIAVO: Yes.

O`DONNELL: It is not true. That is not true. The family just had to wait five excruciating hours. And your reporters here on scene can verify the mob. The family, any time that Michael Schiavo suspends visitation, Mary Schindler has been waiting over five hours to go see her daughter.

B. SCHIAVO: Father, Father, let me...

O`DONNELL: She has no access...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: OK, you know what? Somebody is lying.

O`DONNELL: I will not let you lie.

(CROSSTALK)

B. SCHIAVO: Well, you don`t have to let me lie, because...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Somebody is lying.

Don`t move. We`ll be right back. Please stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERNEST FEIGENBAUM, RECOVERED FROM VEGETATIVE STATE: I was in a vegetative state, worse than Terri. I couldn`t open my eyes. I couldn`t groan. I couldn`t make the sound she makes. They gave me up. They said, "Take the feeding tube out." They gave me up for dead, a vegetable, a guaranteed vegetable was the words they said. And, look, I`m here now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARLA SAUER IYER, TERRI SCHIAVO`S FMR. NURSE: In front of all the staff he would say, "When is she going to die? Has that B-I-T-C-H died yet?"

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. We`re talking about Terri Schiavo. As you know, no water, no food, she`s headed into day six now.

Let me go to Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN medical reporter.

Sanjay, in my mind, it seems to be a lot different to be on a ventilator than simply being fed. Now, is that considered life support?

GUPTA: It is considered a form of life support. I mean, basically, any time you`re providing some sort of support that if taken away the person would die it is considered a form of artificial support. It`s not the same as a ventilator, you`re right. And those decisions are much easier to make as a result. But, you know, a feeding tube in this case is considered a form of that.

GRACE: Richard Herman, defense attorney, is with us.

Richard Herman, I`m going on record right now. I don`t want my tube pulled. I want to lay there and be a burden.

RICHARD HERMAN, RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know what...

GRACE: Hope for a miracle.

HERMAN: Here, Nancy, here`s what you need. Two pages. That`s all you need. Two pages.

GRACE: Richard, I cannot read that. What are you holding up at me?

HERMAN: I`m holding up for you a living will and healthcare proxy. Two pages, that`s it. You sign this for four witnesses...

GRACE: OK, you know what? Richard, thanks for the "would have, could have, should have," but she didn`t have one. But word to the wise, I get it, living will.

Let me quickly go back to Brother Paul O`Donnell. He is the Schindler family religious advisor.

Do you think that there are any financial reasons on the part of Michael Schiavo?

O`DONNELL: Yes, I do. And, you know, you covered cases where you know that this drama could not have been scripted by anyone`s imagination, book deals, made-for-television movies, you know, the Schiavo name is going to go down in history with Scott Peterson and O.J. Simpson if this goes on.

GRACE: Well, you can add Robert Blake to that.

Very quickly, back to Sanjay, is there anyone in this state, Sanjay, that has ever recovered?

GUPTA: Well, you know, it is interesting. We actually did a search on that, trying to figure out if someone ever recovered from a persistent vegetative state. Again, I haven`t examined Terri, so I don`t what state she`s in exactly. But we could not find any documented cases.

A lot of people coming out, as you probably heard, Nancy, and saying, "Well, I have a story of someone who recovered from x, y or z." But as far as someone who is conclusively diagnosed to be in a persistent vegetative state, we could not find any reports of someone actually recovering from that.

GRACE: Sanjay, how long does Terri have to live?

GUPTA: Hard to say. We know from October of 2003, she survived six- and-a-half days without a feeding tube. She`s already probably becoming dehydrated already at day five now. I would say, within the next several days, her kidneys would start to take a hit, irreversible hit to their function and probably a few days after that, her heart would start to have problems, as well. I`d say maybe 10, 14 days.

GRACE: Brian Schiavo, what do you say to allegations that your brother does have a financial gain? And if he has this other woman -- and he`s got a family, right? Don`t they have children?

SCHIAVO: Yes, they do.

GRACE: OK. Why didn`t he divorce her if he`s going to go start a whole other family and have children with another woman?

SCHIAVO: Basically, he has a commitment to Terri. He had promised her that he would not let her lay in a position like this. I don`t know anybody out there that would.

I would ask the Father, does he have a living will? Would he want to do that, to live like that? That`s ludicrous. It`s irrational and it`s ludicrous.

And as far as the money is concerned, there is no money. And if people would just look at the six and a half years of testimony, they will see there`s documented proof there is no money to this.

And, you know, people just can`t get it through their -- she is not an object. Unfortunately, she has become a pawn in a political thing with Jeb Bush and the rest of the Republicans. But the issue is, this is her wish. It was adjudicated as her wish. And people just don`t want to listen to that.

GRACE: Well, I don`t think the public has a whole lot of confidence in federal court judges in an ivory tower or Congress making life-or-death decisions. We`ll get right back to it in just a moment, quick break.

To "Trial Tracking": Debra LaFave, remember her, the 24-year-old Tampa school teacher charged with having sex with a 14-year-old student? When will it stop? She wants a plea deal. That`s right. She wants a sweetheart deal so she won`t have to go to a jury trial.

LaFave`s lawyer says, if the case does go to trial, his client will claim insanity. Does she look insane to you? LaFave`s former student says he had sex with his teacher five times in June of 2004.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN FITZGIBBONS, DEBRA LAFAVE`S ATTORNEY: Debbie has had a lot of issues that aren`t her fault and are very significant issues. She`s been through an awful lot over the years. And our psychiatrist has agreed with that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAUER IYER: He was very intimidating. He would come up to the nurse`s station and state, "These are my orders. You are going to follow it." There were rehab orders for Terri. And Michael would void those orders.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You`re hearing from a nurse that was on the same hall as Terri Schiavo, referring to her husband, Michael Schiavo.

Brian Schiavo, what do you have to say to that allegation? What possible motive would a nurse have to lie?

B. SCHIAVO: Well, she obviously has some problems, that`s for sure, but I`ll tell you, she`s...

GRACE: Sounds like she`s got a problem with your brother.

B. SCHIAVO: Well, certainly she does. And, you know, all her testimony has already been refuted in the courts.

GRACE: OK, all right.

B. SCHIAVO: So, I mean, she`s had her opportunity. And for whatever reason, she just wants to jump on her bandwagon. Well, now she`s committing slander, at this point in time. And she`s probably going to have a few problems later on, that`s for sure.

GRACE: Oh, you mean you`re threatening a lawsuit tonight? So it is about money.

B. SCHIAVO: I am not threatening any lawsuit.

GRACE: Sounds like it like to me.

B. SCHIAVO: Well, I`m not, because I don`t have anything to do with it. That`s my opinion, Nancy. And, again, everything she says has all been refuted.

GRACE: So everybody tonight that has had these things to say, you have said they`re all wrong. You said that what the nurse said is wrong. You said what Brother Paul O`Donnell said was wrong. You said what her parents said, they`re all wrong, except for your brother.

SCHIAVO: No. Everybody has a right to their opinion. Like I said, this whole thing is not about what the Schindlers want, what the Father wants, what that nurse said, what Michael wants. This is about what Terri wanted.

GRACE: OK. Let me go quickly to Albert Mohler.

Reverend, what are your thoughts on the status right now? She doesn`t have much longer to live.

MOHLER: No, I can`t imagine that this is anything that Terri could have wanted, would have wanted. All we have is the statement of her husband, whose mixed motives have been made abundantly clear just in the last few minutes.

This is a tragedy. We have a woman here who is dying. She is being starved to death. You know, we are obviously looking at last days, perhaps even last hours.

America`s heart should be breaking here, Nancy. This is a situation, today Terri Schiavo, tomorrow who? It could be you. It could be me. It could be any of us.

GRACE: Reverend Mohler, as we go to break, what do you think about the culture of life as opposed to the culture of death here in America?

MOHLER: Well, I think what we`re seeing in the courts and, to frightening degree, the court of public opinion, we have a willingness to declare some human beings to be unworthy of life. That is not only a slippery slope, that`s the bottom of the slope. It`s just a question then of who`s next. I find this to be extremely frightening. And right now, we have to get back...

GRACE: But Reverend, yes or no: If she wanted to die, if she didn`t want to live like this and you knew that, would you agree with the feeding tube being removed?

MOHLER: I would not agree to it. I would accept her right to make that determination if she had done it in a way that`s legally substantial and we had it in writing and we knew that. I would still disagree with it, but I would have to honor it. In this case, I can`t honor Michael Schiavo`s claim.

GRACE: Thank you, Reverend.

Quick break. As we go to break, I want to remind you, we here at NANCY GRACE want desperately to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Tonight, take a look at Erica Smith. Erica, murdered July 2002, Sterling, Virginia, 14-years-old. If you have any information, please dial a toll-free number, 888-813-8389. Help us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SOPHIA CHOI, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. I`m Sophia Choi. Let`s get to your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."

A deadly explosion today at BP oil refinery in Texas City, Texas. Officials say at least four people were killed in the blast and as many as 100 others were hurt. The cause of this explosion isn`t known.

Iraqi troops took down an insurgent base of operation near Baghdad today. Officials say an undetermined number of rebel fighters were killed in the two-hour battle. Seven Iraqi police commandos were killed and six wounded. U.S. officials say the battle shows insurgents have diminished capabilities.

A New Jersey man has been charged with shining laser beams into airline cockpits and released on $100,000 bond. Prosecutors say he aimed the laser pointers at planes in two separate incidents and initially blamed them on his seven-year-old daughter.

That`s the news for now. I`m Sophia Choi. Now back to NANCY GRACE.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER ACCUSED OF MOLESTATION: Years ago, I allowed a family to visit and spend some time at Neverland. Neverland is my home. I allowed this family into my home because they told me their son was ill with cancer and needed my help.

Through the years, I have helped thousands of children who were ill or in distress. These events have caused a nightmare for my family, my children and me. I never intend to place myself in so vulnerable a position ever again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Help children or help himself? Today in the Michael Jackson child sex case, a setback for the prosecution, no doubt about it. Trial judge Rodney Melville will not -- repeat, will not -- allow the jury to hear testimony that pornography, including images of teenagers, was on Jackson`s computers. The defense argued the porn cannot be connected to Jackson and isn`t relevant.

Tonight, in New York, defense attorney Michael Mazzariello and psychologist Anne Renee Testa.

First though to Santa Maria, California and "Inside Edition`s" senior correspondent, Jim Moret.

Jim, yes. What does porn have to do with this molestation case, huh? Didn`t they claim he showed porn to the kids to get them aroused?

JIM MORET, "INSIDE EDITION": Yes, they did. And they actually took a number of computers from Michael Jackson`s home, including four from his bedroom.

But the problem was, and this is the problem that the judge had, there was no connection between Michael Jackson, the computers, and the accuser, because all of the hits for the Web sites were at a time when these boys, the accuser and his brother and his sister, were not even at Neverland. And the judge was very concerned of the prejudicial value. He couldn`t find enough reason, enough relevancy, if you will, to connect these boys to the computers.

GRACE: Are you telling me, Jim, the prosecution does not have porn pulled up on the day the boy was there?

MORET: That`s what I`m telling you. It`s exactly what...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: OK, that hurts.

MORET: Of course it hurts. And in a way, the defense might have been smart to get this information in because then they could have said to the jurors, "Where`s the smoking gun? The boys allege that they use the computers on these dates. Here`s the computers. You show me where it is. It is not there."

GRACE: You know, Michael Mazzariello, I don`t see any way that it would help the defense to bring in porn where there are teenagers, apparently teenagers, naked on Jackson`s computer. I don`t think that`s like outsmarting the prosecution.

MICHAEL MAZZARIELLO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I agree 100 percent with the judge, Nancy. Judge Melville did the absolute correct thing. He did not allow the fact -- you know, it`s highly prejudicial and it doesn`t -- it`s not outweighed by its probative effects. So he did the right thing. I think the defense should just sit tight and see what happens next.

GRACE: OK, wise words. Take a listen to this sound bite.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: My greatest inspiration comes from kids. Every song I write, every dance I do, all the poetry I write is all inspired from that level of innocence, that consciousness of purity. And children have that. I see God in the face of children. And, man, I just love being around that all the time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That`s from the ABC version of the Bashir documentary shown to the Jackson jury.

Now, Elizabeth, we are talking about Jackson stating that children inspire his dance moves. How about that dance move, Elizabeth? There you go.

OK. Dr. Anne Renee Testa, help me out. What is that?

DR. ANNE RENEE TESTA, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, he`s grabbing his genitals. And that`s what this is all about.

GRACE: What is porn? What effect does porn have on a child, an asexual creature?

TESTA: When you think about it, Nancy, pornography on an innocent child that believes in this man -- they believe in him, he`s an idol. So they`ll do anything. And if he shows it to them, as we believe, I think, that he did, then the effect is these children are innocent, and they`re shown something that`s so foreign to them that they begin to accept it because he normalizes it. He makes it like this is, you know, everyday, it`s OK.

GRACE: You know, and that`s the recurring theme, Richard Herman, throughout the boy`s testimony on the stand. I`ll check this out with Jim Moret. The boy kept saying that Jackson said this is natural. It`s normal. It`s normal for us to masturbate each other. It`s OK.

HERMAN: Well, I don`t know what to say to that, Nancy. The boy has been totally undermined. He was destroyed on cross-examination. His credibility has been annihilated here. And this judge made a very careful ruling not allowing those hard drives in. That`s giving you insight as to his sensitivity to the prejudicial value. And that`s going to come Monday, on that 11:08 hearing. I don`t think he`s going to let the `93 case in. I don`t think he`s going to let it in.

GRACE: I think he is. I think he is.

Jim Moret, do you have your finger on the pulse of the courtroom? Do you think the similar transactions are coming in?

MORET: Well, you know, there`s been no shortage of pornography. The jurors today saw a sea of pornography in the form of magazines, dozens and dozens of magazines taken from Michael Jackson`s home. The prosecution still has to make a connection between those magazines and these boys. We did hear testimony from the boy, one of the boys that he read one of these magazines.

And the defense has even admitted, sure, the accuser`s fingerprints are on one of the magazines. Why? Because during the grand jury testimony, he was handed a magazine without gloves and shuffled through it.

Your other guest was perfectly right. I think that the judge on Monday has a critical decision in this case. It will make or break this case for either side whether he lets the `93, `94 allegations in.

I`m on the fence on this one. I think it is so prejudicial, if the prosecution has not laid a foundation for this case, I think it would be wrong for the judge to let it in.

GRACE: I have got a question for you, Jim. I have got a question.

MORET: Sure.

GRACE: The boy outlined times, dates that he says he was molested. He talked about being fed wine.

MORET: Yes.

GRACE: He talked about being shown pornography. Without physical evidence such as DNA or tearing of human flesh, with no physical evidence, what other foundation do you suggest the state lay down?

MORET: Well, the state had a great foundation that seems to be eroding right now. A witness, a former bodyguard of Michael Jackson`s, who the state was going to offer up to show that the boy and Michael Jackson were together and drinking, that former bodyguard was arrested just a couple of days ago in Las Vegas on charges of burglary, and kidnapping, and robbery.

And I read today that the prosecution is still interested in bringing that witness here, because you need more than one person`s word against another person`s word.

The state`s trying to build a case through corroborating evidence. We are seeing some of that. And we saw it in pornography today. They`re trying their best, Nancy.

And I agree that this boy was undermined a great deal. But they`re trying to show other circumstantial evidence. And this is a long trial. We`re only a few weeks into it. You know what can happen in these cases. A lot happens. I don`t want to judge it on day-by-day basis. You really have to sit back and look at the totality of the evidence.

GRACE: I only got 30 seconds to break.

Anne Renee, a response?

TESTA: I think that it`s wrong, wrong, wrong. I think that the jurors are taking in all of this. And they`re not idiots. They`re smart people. And they`re going to make the right decision.

And it`s so obvious to me that -- and it`s obvious to the jurors. Believe me, it is. You want to do it fairly. But I`m here to say that the jurors are smarter than what`s being presented here.

GRACE: OK, well, I can tell you this much. Under California law, the judge almost has to allow in the similar transactions, the other alleged boys that claim child molestation.

TESTA: I can`t wait.

GRACE: According to reports, one of them can describe Michael Jackson`s genitals.

Now, when we come back, I want an innocent explanation for that, you two defense lawyers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: I love my community. And I have great faith in our justice system. Please keep an open mind and let me have my day in court. I deserve a fair trial like every other American citizen. I will be acquitted and vindicated when the truth is told. Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: I feel totally at home with them. I can talk to them one- on-one because they don`t judge you, you know? They are not looking for anything. They just want to have some fun, you know? And that`s the same with myself. And I can connect to that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That`s from the Michael Jackson rebuttal shot by a Jackson staffer. Welcome back.

Let me go back to the two defense lawyers very quickly.

To Michael Mazzariello, how do you think that boy has such an accurate description of Jackson`s penis?

MAZZARIELLO: Well, Nancy, we don`t know it`s accurate yet. Maybe he made it up.

GRACE: Accurate to the tune of about $20 million in settlement.

MAZZARIELLO: Well, Nancy, you know, when it comes to money, people make up lies all the time. Children have a propensity to lie and make up stories.

GRACE: Children have a propensity to lie?

MAZZARIELLO: Nancy, as you know, I was a chief prosecutor for the New York City. Children lied all the time.

GRACE: I didn`t ask you for your resume, Michael. Thanks.

MAZZARIELLO: People lie all the time, Nancy.

GRACE: OK, thanks, Michael. That really shed a lot of light on it.

What about it, Richard Herman? Can you think of a reason that boy can identify Jackson`s genitals?

HERMAN: Yes, Nancy, as you well know, information of the `93, `94 cases are all over the Internet. And this grifter mother obviously could have pulled it up and fed it to her son.

GRACE: No, the original `93 boy, Richard, the original accuser in `93.

HERMAN: Right. That`s on the Internet.

GRACE: He didn`t get it off the Internet.

HERMAN: That settlement was on the Internet, Nancy. His declaration was on the Internet.

GRACE: Are you going to answer? Are you going to answer how this boy could identify Jackson`s genitals?

HERMAN: Sure, his mother fed it to him and planned this testimony. That`s exactly how.

GRACE: It`s in `93, Richard. We`re talking about the `93 kid, not the 2004 kid.

HERMAN: Well, look, the `93 case was a settlement. We don`t know what went down in that case. And he may have seen Michael Jackson naked. But that does not mean that Michael Jackson molested him.

And on the 11:08 issue, Nancy, two reasons it won`t come in. Remoteness in time and, second, because those were not adjudications in `93 and `94. They were settlement.

GRACE: OK, Richard, Richard, Richard, thanks.

Take a look at what happened in court yesterday. A fan who had saved herself sexually for 18 years got rolled out on a tarp. Of course, there was quite a bit of screaming and thrashing about.

Oh, Jim Moret, were you there for that?

MORET: Not only was I there, I was giving -- I do pool legal analysis for all stations across the country, and while I was doing that...

GRACE: I thought you were going to say, "I was giving CPR."

(LAUGHTER)

MORET: No, no. I wasn`t. But I heard the woman screaming behind me. And I turned.

You know, this is controlled chaos here, Nancy. Today, there was an ambulance at the end of court again.

GRACE: Yes. I was just going to show that.

MORET: Not for a fan...

GRACE: For Oxman, the lawyer, right?

MORET: Please, go ahead. Yes.

GRACE: It`s Jackson`s lawyer, right? Here we go. Roll it, Elizabeth.

OK. Now, that`s got to be embarrassing.

I mean, Mazzariello, have you ever been taken out on a stretcher from the courtroom?

MAZZARIELLO: I came pretty close about a month ago, Nancy. As you very well know, in trial work...

GRACE: Is that a yes or a no?

MAZZARIELLO: No.

GRACE: Richard Herman, stretcher for you?

HERMAN: No, Nancy. But, you know, you made a big deal when Michael came to court late an hour and a half. The prosecution made that jury wait over two hours today because they ran out of witnesses.

Now, Nancy, you know -- judges will tell you -- if you don`t have a witness, you rest. And they made that jury wait. And that was not professional today.

GRACE: Jim Moret, why was Jackson`s counsel rolled out on a stretcher?

MORET: Well, at the very end of court. And all of this remember, the jury never saw any of this. But at the end of court, Brian Oxman, Jackson`s family attorney, began having trouble breathing. He sat down. One of the bailiffs said there`s a medical emergency. The bailiff went over, took off Mr. Oxman`s tie, his jacket.

Interestingly enough, Michael Jackson appeared to be offering some aid to his counsel. And we then heard that an ambulance -- we could hear the sirens. An ambulance came. He`s at a local hospital still.

Tom Mesereau, his co-counsel, or Jackson`s lead counsel, has gone to visit him twice already and left twice. And I`m told that he`s even brought some paperwork to the hospital, presumably, even though he`s a family attorney, he is integral to this defense.

But we don`t know yet what it is. We don`t know if it was a breathing problem, if it was a heart problem. It could be the Melville diet that you`ve heard so much about. You know, nobody`s allowed to eat lunch here. And we literally go all day. And by the end of the day, we are starving. Maybe that`s why he`s there. I don`t know.

GRACE: You know, Dr. Anne Renee Testa, it`s my belief that practically any type of a criminal can be rehabilitated, except for sex offenders, including child molesters, rapists, and so forth. If one believe that the `93 allegation is true, and then I believe the next one was in `94, a $2 million settlement, could Jackson ever be rehabilitated?

TESTA: I think it`s going to be a tough road to hoe. I really do, because he is so locked into his psychosis. I mean, that`s -- he is so deep into it, Nancy. I`m somebody that believes that people can change. I think it`s going to be a really tough one because...

GRACE: You think sex molesters can change?

TESTA: Oh, you know something, I have treated the recipients of sex offenders, so they can change even though they`re damaged terribly, terribly damaged.

GRACE: I mean the perpetrator. Can they be rehabilitated?

TESTA: I think it`s a difficult thing that...

GRACE: OK, are you going to give me a yes or no?

TESTA: No. I can`t give you a yes and a no. And I`ll tell you why. I live in the world of possibilities. I think, in Jackson`s case, it is going to be really difficult. He is so deep into his stuff.

GRACE: OK.

TESTA: Honestly, you want to look for an answer, a yes or no answer? It`s close to no.

GRACE: That`s a lot coming from you.

To Jim Moret, Jim, the ruling by the judge is set for Monday, correct?

MORET: Right, Monday morning. The jury has been told they`re going to come back at 11:30. Presumably the judge is going to have his ruling before then.

GRACE: Now, if the similars come in, what will we expect to hear?

MORET: Well, we are going to hear testimony about those prior accusations and allegations. And I think they could be devastating. You may hear the actual victims, the alleged victims on the stand, testifying about what Jackson allegedly did to them in `93 and `94, and that could seal his fate in this case. I think it would be devastating for the defense.

GRACE: Now, Jim Moret, are you talking about the $20 million settlement and then the $2 million settlement generally, those two?

MORET: Yes, yes.

GRACE: And the second one, the mother of the boy worked at Neverland, correct?

MORET: That`s correct.

GRACE: OK. Very quickly, Jim Moret, I know the computer porn has been ruled out because the days Jackson looked at the porn did not jive with the boy`s testimony. But there was a lot of porn in court today, correct? What was it?

MORET: Dozens and dozens of magazines, ranging from Penthouse to some fairly hardcore magazines. And the defense may say, "Look, this humanizes Michael Jackson. He looks at pornography. So do most men," they would argue.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: I don`t know that most men are looking at (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and over 50. OK?

MORET: That`s probably true.

GRACE: But what do I know? I don`t know, Jim. We`ll hold that thought just a moment.

Very quickly, as we go to break, to "Trial Tracking": In 1991, John Evander Couey, the guy who allegedly kidnapped, molested and killed nine- year-old Jessie Lunsford, made it clear he had a problem prison could not cure. His confession to police 14 years ago about what he did with a five- year-old girl in her backyard survives on audiotape.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIPE)

JOHN EVANDER COUEY, CHARGED WITH JESSICA LUNSFORD`S MURDER: She was riding across, and I went over there, and she offered to go in the backyard to jump on the trampoline. And I said, "OK." And we went back there, and she was jumping on there. And I asked her if she wanted to play Hide-and- Go-Seek. And she said, "Yes." So we did. And then her mother come out, and yelled for her, and I took off.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, it gets worse. Couey then acknowledges to the cop he exposed himself, that the same girl then sat on his lap voluntarily. A five-year-old girl sits on his lap voluntarily. He claims he put her hand on him.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

COUEY: I feel that prison ain`t going to help me. I got a 10-year sentence, and I got out in three years. And it doesn`t really help. I feel that I need help for myself.

And that`s why I`m confessing to my crime, that I committed, tonight, because I want help for myself so I will never have to do this again. I mean, I feel bad about it, really I do. I feel that if I can get help for myself, then I can make a better person out of myself.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: If you are a crime victim with a story to tell, know of an injustice or a case that needs a spotlight, call 888-GRACE-01, 472-2301, or go to the Web site, CNN.com/NancyGrace.

Welcome back. Let`s go straight out to Jim Moret.

What happens next?

MORET: Well, next we are going to hear from a fingerprint expert. Because, remember, even though the prosecution has introduced all of this evidence of girlie magazines, pornography, adult materials, we have got to somehow tie this to the accuser. And they are going to do that with fingerprints.

GRACE: Well, correct me if I`m wrong, but didn`t the boy tell authorities where they should go, exactly, to find where the porn is stashed, in a black briefcase kept in the bathroom, as I recall?

MORET: Yes. And that`s what they did. They introduced that today. That`s where most of the magazines came from. But they still have to link it.

GRACE: Well, Jim, isn`t that the correction? Isn`t that a connection? Why should this boy know where all Jackson`s porn is if Jackson didn`t show it to him?

MORET: But the problem with the specific magazines that the prosecution introduced, many of those magazines were published after the boy left Neverland. So you can`t really use those to establish a connection, can you?

GRACE: Well, the fact that the boy knows where he keeps them to me is a significant part. The fact that Jackson replenished his porn collection doesn`t really grab me. But, Jim Moret, I see where you`re headed.

I want to thank all of my guests, Jim Moret, still there at the courthouse tonight, Jim Moret, Michael Mazzariello, Richard Herman, Dr. Anne Renee Testa, also earlier Brian Schiavo, Brother Paul O`Donnell, Reverend Albert Mohler and Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

But tonight, as always, my biggest thank you is to you for being with us tonight and inviting all of us into your homes. Coming up, headlines from around the world. Remember, live coverage of the Jackson trial tomorrow 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern on Court TV`s "Closing Arguments."

I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. I hope to see you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.

MIKE GALANOS, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I`m Mike Galanos. And here`s your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."

President Bush and his counterparts to the north and south have agreed to cooperate more on security and economic issues. The announcement came during a meeting in Texas. There has been some tension between the three leaders since Mexico and Canada objected to the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq.

The Army hopes emphasizing patriotism will up its sagging recruiting numbers, revamping its sales pitch to encourage parents to get their kids to enlist. The Army doesn`t expect to meet its recruiting goals this month or next.

Whitney Houston is back in rehab again. No details, except that the pop singer checked herself into the clinic. Houston last checked herself into a rehabilitation center a year ago.

And there have been several rulings today in the case of Terri Schiavo from a federal appeals court to the Florida legislature. Erica Hill and I will breakdown where the case stands now. That`s coming up next on "PRIME NEWS TONIGHT." Stay with us.

END


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