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NANCY GRACE

Rader Charged With 10 Counts of Murder in First Degree; Search for Jessica Lunsford Continues; Day 2 of Michael Jackson Trial

Aired March 1, 2005 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, CNN HOST: Tonight, we go live for the latest in the BTK, "Bind, Torture, Kill," serial killers, ten murders that we know of so far. A former dogcatcher stands charged with ten counts of murder one.
Also tonight, to Florida for developments in the search for nine-year- old Jessica Lunsford. We are not giving up. Have police rejected the abduction theory?

And Michael Jackson`s worst nightmare on the stand. The documentary that Jackson enlisted to be done on himself. Ruh-roh.

Good evening everybody, I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us tonight.

Jessica Lunsford`s dad took, and passed, an FBI lie-detector test. Next in line, her grandfather. Today, it is phase two of the search, search-and-rescue team using dogs to track Jessica.

Michael Jackson back in court today, day two of his child molestation trial. Is the state off to a bumpy start? That`s what we`re hearing.

But first, the so-called BTK killer, Dennis Rader, formally charged today, ten counts, murder one. Crack reporter Larry Hatteberg of KAKE has been on the case from the get-go. He`s with us tonight from Wichita, Kansas. Also with us, James Reno. James is from Wichita, and he was Rader`s neighbor for 15 years.

Before we get going, guys, take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you understand that you`re charged with ten counts of first degree murder?

DENNIS RADER, ACCUSED BTK KILLER: Yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. I`m going to set this case for 9 o`clock in the morning on March 15th. Bond will be in the amount of $10 million.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can remember the feeling of being a young woman -- I was only in my late 20s at that time -- and feeling the unraveling or the unnerving feeling of potential of even being a victim.

And so, following this through the years and then having something or somewhat of a relief in the community. And of course, these allegations and claims being filed at this time, it`s been also a historical adventure in essence for our community to then, after 30 years, have this occur.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I don`t know, Larry Hatteberg, as a former prosecutor of murder cases, I somehow don`t agree with the lady reporter that it`s a historical adventure. You know, there`s ten dead bodies that is we know of, friend. Were you in court today?

LARRY HATTEBERG, KAKE-TV REPORTER: I was not in court today. I was here at the station helping anchor it. And the woman you just saw is actually the local district attorney who was being interviewed.

And I have to tell you, Nancy, that this was absolutely a fascinating moment in television history, at least in local television history, in Wichita. Because for the first time in 30 years, Wichita got to see the suspect, the man who is accused of being BTK. Everybody wanted to see him. Everybody wanted to listen to him. Everybody wanted to hear him. And we did today for the first time.

GRACE: You know, I`ve never heard a district attorney refer to a serial murder as a historical adventure. But, you know, I am not from the area. The area has been under a reign of terror for a really long time. And the reality is, today in court, there was nothing to see. It was done via closed circuit. Is that normal?

HATTEBERG: That is normal in the Sedgwick County district court. The first appearances are handled that way. It is just simpler. It`s easier, and it goes much quicker. So there was nothing out of the norm about this first appearance today.

What she was referring to, I believe, is the fact that this is absolutely a historical case for this area. We have never had a case like a serial killer case here in the heartland before. It always happens on the east coast or the west coast but not here.

GRACE: You know, that`s true.

HATTEBERG: So from that point of view, this is a historical moment.

GRACE: That`s very true. And that`s what makes this so incredibly unique, not that serial killers are run of the mill. They are not. But in this geographical area, almost unheard of.

Let me go to you. Joining us tonight is a neighbor, a neighbor of the alleged killer, James Reno.

Sir, how long have you known Rader?

JAMES RENO, NEIGHBOR OF ACCUSED BTK KILLER: Oh, about 15 years.

GRACE: What was he like?

RENO: Didn`t ever really like the guy. He was always kind of rude to the female neighbors we had. They were living at home. You know, they were either widowed or divorced. If they were alone, then he was pretty hard on them.

GRACE: What do you mean rude to them? What, did he come on to them? Would he use his authority?

RENO: Oh, no, he would use his job as compliance officer.

GRACE: Oh, good lord.

RENO: He`s been known to let the dogs loose and then give them tickets for their dogs being loose...

GRACE: Oh.

RENO: ... in the neighborhood.

GRACE: Yes, let me quickly go back to Larry Hatteberg. Larry, this fits exactly into the theory you and I were talking about the other night, how he could use that uniform -- hey, Elizabeth, can you show me that uniform that Rader -- there you go.

If this guy came to my door and he showed me I.D., I would probably let him in like a big idiot. And I think that is how he got to his victims, Larry.

HATTEBERG: Well, exactly. And he wrote us a letter back in May and in that letter he enclosed a page that had a photo copy of some badges and security I.D. And we believe that that was the ruse, or his M.O., that he used to get into some of the homes.

And I want to say one other thing. I talked to a federal investigator today. And he said, "You know, it`s not unusual for people to be one way when we normally see them but have another life." They said, "That`s common in any investigation." People are who they want to be to everybody else and to the public. But there is another side to all of us that`s not public.

GRACE: Well, Larry, you have to look at history. And that confirms what you`re saying. Look at Ted Bundy. A lot of people loved him, thought he was handsome. He was popular. John Wayne Gacy, for Pete`s sake, performed at children`s birthday parties. He was the clown killer, one of the most prolific killers in history.

HATTEBERG: Right.

GRACE: Ew. There he is. OK, how would you like to wake up to that one morning?

Very quickly, back to James Reno. James, I`m totally obsessed with this guy, how he was in the neighborhood. I understand that he bullied ladies in the neighborhood. Was that common, and why didn`t anybody do anything about it?

RENO: Well, the neighbor lady I had across the street, she promised - - well, she made me promise her that I would stay out of it because it just made things worse. We complained and was told that, "Oh, he is just doing his job." But he carried his job to extremes. And he was quite arrogant about it.

GRACE: You know, I was taking a look at that one guy standing with him, Larry Hatteberg. I`m sure that`s his appointed attorney, but doesn`t he have three lawyers? Who are they?

HATTEBERG: Yes. He has three lawyers now. And they were appointed this morning by the judge. And they are public defenders.

And one public defender, the guy who`s going to be leading the case, is quoted tonight as saying he feels a bit overwhelmed because he`s currently overseeing 60 cases right now that are going to have to be assigned to other people. And can you imagine just going into this cold all of a sudden today? You are defending the suspect known as BTK.

Meanwhile, the prosecutor has a mountain of evidence already collected, so he really has a daunting task ahead of him. It`s going to be a full-time job and more just to catch up, just to get up to speed.

GRACE: Well, they won`t make them to go to trial until they`re ready. That`s grounds for a reversal.

HATTEBERG: Oh, absolutely. And you`re going to see this thing continued, and continued, and continued so that they can get up to speed.

GRACE: Oh, you`re not kidding.

HATTEBERG: And they said that today.

GRACE: You know what I`m preparing myself for, Larry, is the request for a psychiatric evaluation, which is totally B.S. B.S.-o-Meter way off the chart on that one. This guy functioned normally. He had a family. He bullied the neighbors. You know, this guy is not crazy. But I know that`s where they`re headed. Where else can they go? They have got DNA, Larry.

HATTEBERG: Well, all the defense attorneys have said that that would be one move that they would make. And the other move that they would make is to take this trial outside of Wichita, to take it to another venue because many defense attorneys don`t believe he could get a fair trial in Wichita.

But my question about that is, if this suspect, who is, the police believe, BTK, what if he starts to want to control it a little bit and start to enjoy the publicity like he always has? Would he want the trial to stay here in Wichita because this has been his home, this has been where he`s done all of his things? Wouldn`t he want everybody to see it? That`s a consideration that we`re all wondering about.

GRACE: You know, that`s a good question. But I think the press is going to be huge no matter where he`s tried.

HATTEBERG: Oh, yes.

GRACE: Hey, one quick question. I have got to go to break. Is it true that he has made a quasi-confession?

HATTEBERG: Well, we are getting from our sources that he has confessed to several of the murders. We don`t know how many. But we know he is talking to investigators. And he is apparently talking a lot.

How many of those murders he has confessed to, we just don`t know. That will be coming out later. As you well know, the district attorney`s office and the police department holding information very tight right now. So it`s difficult to know exactly what`s going on behind the scenes.

GRACE: I only have one question left as we go to break, James Reno. Do you think ten is the real tally or does the neighborhood, the community, think there are more than ten?

RENO: Well, I think when they ran that one guy out years ago -- I watched it on TV. They claimed that he was the killer and as soon as he left, the killings would stop. And I personally, knowing Dennis, I`m really not sure he ever stopped or if he did...

GRACE: Yes, because...

RENO: ... you know, he changed -- with the lady across the street, he changed his pattern to me. He took her from her home and dumped her in a ditch. Now, if he`s really the killer, I don`t expect that he ever quit. I think he just changed these patterns so he wasn`t so out there with it.

GRACE: Guys, I`m signing off.

But Larry Hatteberg, I agree with James Reno. A fish got to swim, and a bird got to fly. This guy, if this is him, he did not take a break for 20 years. They just haven`t connected up all the bodies. Mark my words on it, Larry. Mark them.

HATTEBERG: Yes, the district attorney and the police department have an open investigation here, so anything is possible in the future. The investigation is still opening. And they`re still looking at things. So anything is possible.

GRACE: Larry Hatteberg, KAKE-TV anchor, thank you so much for enlightening us.

HATTEBERG: My pleasure.

GRACE: You know, everybody is fixated on the BTK killer. It is incredible.

And you, James Reno, I`m just glad you`re here with us tonight. You were five -- I think -- five doors down from this guy. Thank you for being with us.

RENO: Yes. No problem.

GRACE: We are taking a quick break.

We`re not giving up on Jessica Lunsford. We`re going to speak to her father in just a few moments. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHERIFF JEFF DAWSY, CITRUS COUNTY POLICE DEPT.: We haven`t got any solid leads. We`ve got numerous. We`re probably closing in to about a thousand leads we`ve received from within the state and out of the state of Florida.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Lots of leads but, tonight, nothing solid in the search for nine-year-old Jessica Lunsford. The little girl vanished from her Florida bedroom five long nights ago. Her father, Mark, has been asking the public for help to find her. And he is with us tonight again from Homosassa Springs, Florida.

Sir, thank you for being with us again.

MARK LUNSFORD, FATHER OF MISSING GIRL: You`re welcome. Thank you.

GRACE: I have got to tell you, Mark, you look beat.

LUNSFORD: I am tired. But you know, just -- I mean, when I sit down, you know, I get real tired. But as long as I stay busy, I got Jessie on my mind and that keeps me going.

GRACE: Mark, what did you do today to try to find Jessie?

LUNSFORD: I tried to do as many things as I could. You know, I have got a lot going on with her. And, you know, thanking people, you know, going different places, because there`s so many different businesses down here contributing to this. And I can`t -- it seems like I can`t reach them all and thank them enough, you know, putting out fliers.

GRACE: I heard that an Atlanta Brave put up a $25,000 reward. Is that true?

LUNSFORD: Yes. Yes, it is. I mean, it was -- I couldn`t believe it. I mean, I didn`t -- from my understanding, well, anyways, yes. He did. He did.

GRACE: Hey, Mark, question: Why have they sent -- actually, take a listen to this. Then I`ll ask you. This is Sheriff Jeff Dawsy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAWSY: We employed the citizens to cover a large area to see if we could find anything quickly. Then the national center has been working with us through phone calls and presence for quite a while.

They have brought in a gentleman that works with them. And then we have gone out and received some resources that are local resources. And one, even, I believe from the state of Florida, that have been trained by the center and certified as true search-and-rescue people. They are going to be brought in. And they are going to be doing a little bit different of a grid search, looking for a little bit different clues.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Mr. Lunsford, it`s my understanding that the broader of the search of the area has been called off and they are searching around the house, like a two-mile radius around the house. Why is that?

LUNSFORD: I`m not real sure. I mean, I haven`t been able to -- you know, I wasn`t around when the Sheriff Dawsy, you know, talked about that. I was, you know, running and trying to take care of the things I can for Jessie because, I mean, I just want her to come home. And, as far as the investigation part, I mean, the best information that you can -- you know, the best answers you can get for them questions would be the sheriff`s department. I mean, I don`t have any...

GRACE: Hey, Mark. Did you take a polygraph?

LUNSFORD: Yes, I sure did.

GRACE: I understand you took a polygraph and a voice test and passed both.

LUNSFORD: Yes.

GRACE: Who else are they planning to polygraph?

LUNSFORD: I don`t know everybody that they`re, you know, planning to do that to. You know, I mean, they don`t tell me these things, you know, I mean, not that I can remember.

GRACE: How about Jessica`s grandfather?

LUNSFORD: You know, I`m not sure. I mean, I know they start the investigation from inside the house. You know, they start from the center and they work their way out. We all got to take, you know, and do whatever they say. And...

GRACE: Hey, Mark.

LUNSFORD: ... my dad`s doing everything they say. Yes?

GRACE: I was told your dad is taking a polygraph tomorrow. Is that right?

LUNSFORD: Well, yes. I heard you say that. I heard somebody else say that.

GRACE: Yes.

LUNSFORD: But I heard somebody say next week. I thought I heard somebody say something about today. But, I mean, I`m just not sure, you know. My mom and dad, they don`t really, you know, tell me these things. Because I mean, because they see I`m so busy. And to me, it`s not really important because, I mean, that`s my mom and dad. It`s Jessie`s grandma and grandpa. So I don`t really think about it.

GRACE: Has there been any change at all in the investigation? Is there anything new you can tell us tonight?

LUNSFORD: Well, I mean, I wished I could, but I just have to -- all I can say is I stay so busy, you know, trying to find Jessie and reaching out to everybody for as much help as I can. The community`s just been great. I just want her to come home.

GRACE: Hey, Mark, question: Are the police getting any leads?

LUNSFORD: I mean, I haven`t heard of any. I mean, it`s about the best I can tell you. I mean, I know you all get a chance to talk to them. And that`s the best source for your answers.

GRACE: OK. With us tonight, Mark Lunsford. He is the father of Jessica Lunsford. She went missing five days ago, taken out of her own bedroom. No forced entry in the home, last seen in a pink nightgown, no shoes, and with a doll her father had won for her at the local fair. Here`s your shot of Jessica Lunsford.

The father, as of tonight, Mark, has passed an FBI stress voice test and a polygraph. As you can see, he is exhausted from the search.

Mr. Lunsford, thank you.

LUNSFORD: If I could, for just a second...

GRACE: Sure.

LUNSFORD: ... just tell Jessie that I love her and that I`m doing everything I can. And just hang in there and pray, baby. Just pray.

Thank you.

GRACE: Mr. Lunsford...

LUNSFORD: Yes?

GRACE: ... don`t thank me. It is so my pleasure to have you on.

LUNSFORD: Right.

GRACE: Thank you, sir.

LUNSFORD: Thank you.

GRACE: As we go to break, "Trial Tracking" on another case. Christopher Pittman, convicted of opening fire and killing his grandparents at just 12-years-old. Here they are. Today, Pittman back in court. His defense lawyers argue that one of the jurors on the case talked about the trial at a bar on day one of deliberations.

Jurors, stay away from bars.

Pittman`s lawyers want a new trial or, in the alternative, they want a reduced sentence.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: It is day two of the Michael Jackson sex trial. Today, Jackson`s lawyers promised the jury not once, not twice, but three times their client, Michael Jackson, the king of pop, will take the stand.

State`s first witness, a British documentarian, Martin Bashir. And he brought a video. Get your popcorn. Remember that BBC documentary? You probably saw a part of it on ABC and it shows Michael Jackson all snugged up with a little boy. Well, today, the jury saw that documentary in full. Take a look at part of the ABC version.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER ACCUSED OF CHILD MOLESTATION: We`re going to sleep. I tuck them in. I put little, like, music on, do a little story time, read a book. It`s very sweet. Put the fireplace on, give them hot milk. You know, we have little cookies. It`s very charming, very sweet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: OK, that`s not exactly how the prosecutor told it to the jury.

Tonight, from Santa Maria, "Celebrity Justice" reporter Jane Velez- Mitchell, in West Tampa, sparring buddy, defense attorney Joe Episcopo, here in New York, defense attorney Jason Oshins, and psychotherapist Dr. Robi Ludwig.

Welcome, everybody. Let`s get down to it.

Jane Velez-Mitchell, what went down in court today? Did Jackson start crying? I have heard conflicting reports.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE" REPORTER: It depends on who you talk to. His back was to the gallery. At one point during the documentary, he picks up a tissue and it looks like he`s crying. A lot of people interpreted that as emotion. His publicist, Raymone Bain, came out afterward and said, "He`s not crying. He`s strong. He`s fighting. He`s angry. He`s not depressed. He is on a crusade. He is fighting."

So it really depends on who you talk to. But I have to tell you, this was one of the strangest days in any legal proceeding that I have ever seen. Sitting there watching this documentary with Michael Jackson along with his two mortal enemies, D.A. Tom Sneddon and Martin Bashir, as well as Jackson`s mom and his brother. And everybody`s chuckling at the same dance moves. It was mind-blowing. It was like something out of the "Twilight Zone." Highly uncomfortable.

GRACE: What do you mean everybody was laughing?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, there were moments where, for example, Michael Jackson is teaching Martin Bashir how to do the moonwalk. And it`s funny, and it`s cute. And everybody has that human reaction to laugh. So here we are in this really horrific situation...

GRACE: Including the jury?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. The jury, some members of the jury, quite a few of them, were kind of moving to the music. I mean, it`s infectious. It`s "ABC," it`s all these great songs. And it`s hard to stay stoic. I could see some of them trying. But I could see others kind of rocking to the beat. And, everybody, all these people...

GRACE: Jane, Jane...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... whose opposing desires are all moving to the same music.

GRACE: I don`t have a problem to the jury getting a groove on to the music. What was their reaction when Jackson spoke in the documentary about sleeping with kids? Am I the only crazy one here? Am I the only one that thinks it`s crazy for a 45-year-old to have sleepovers with nine-year-old kids? They had no reaction?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: They were taking notes. Some were grim. There was one older man who I believe was an alternate who, through the entire documentary, was, like, his jaw was dropping. Everything seemed to shock him. It seemed that he hadn`t seen the documentary and just Michael Jackson`s lifestyle in total was a shocker, the wild spending sprees, the baby danglings, the whole thing. To me, though, I have to say, this was supposed to be the banner day for the prosecution, the showing of this documentary that might as well have been done by the prosecution. But I`ve got to tell you that...

GRACE: Jane, I have got to go to break really quickly. We`ll be straight back with Jane Velez-Mitchell and bring in the rest of our panel. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SOPHIA CHOI, CNN ANCHOR: Hello. I`m Sophia Choi. Let`s get to your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."

A judge working with the tribunal that would have heard charges of human rights abuse against Saddam Hussein has been killed by insurgents in Iraq. The judge`s son was also killed in the attack.

Chicago police say they are going to quote, "work extra hard" to find out who killed a husband and mother of a federal judge. The FBI, the U.S. Marshal Service, and Chicago detectives have formed a task force to solve the crime. The U.S. District Judge Joan Humphrey Lefkow discovered the bodies at the family`s home on Monday.

Hundreds of schools are closed today in the northeast because of a late winter snowstorm. Kids may be getting some little fun now, but they`ll pay for it later. The storm means students in Boston will attend school until at least the end of June. Dozens of flights out of New York and Boston were also canceled today.

That`s the news for now. I`m Sophia Choi. Back to NANCY GRACE now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARTIN BASHIR, BBC DOCUMENTARY HOST: Is that really appropriate for a man, a grown man, to be doing that? How do you respond to that?

JACKSON: I feel sorry for them. Because that`s judging someone who just wants to really help people. Why can`t you share your bed? The most loving thing to do is to share your bed with someone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That was a cut from the BBC documentary, the one that was made by Martin Bashir, showing Jackson with the same boy who has made these formal child molestation charges. That was the ABC version.

Jane Velez-Mitchell, are you telling me when the jury heard that nobody cringed, nobody rolls an eye, nobody coughed? Nothing?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, it`s really hard to measure their reactions. There was one woman who is a mother who seemed visibly upset and kind of disgusted throughout the whole thing.

While some people were rocking to the music, she seemed grim and almost determined not to get sucked in by all of that. So I think there were certain people who were disturbed throughout the documentary. Others seemed to enjoy it as entertainment.

GRACE: You know, Jason Oshins is a civil and criminal attorney.

Jason, the fact that Michael Jackson in this documentary says, "I have only had two plastic surgeries" -- I know he`s not on trial for plastic surgery. Half of L.A. would be behind bars if people were tried for plastic surgery. But the fact that we know he`s lying about something as - - eek! -- as something as innocuous as having a plastic surgery. I mean, it reminds me a little bit -- remember Scott Peterson would just lie about everything whether he had to or not, it didn`t matter?

JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I don`t think anyone`s going to get really upset about his intent to maintain his vanity or not to disclose how many surgeries that he has had. That doesn`t go, I think, to the core of his credibility or not. I really don`t find that objectionable.

GRACE: I think you may be right, Jason.

What about it, Joe Episcopo? Do small white lies damage his credibility?

JOE EPISCOPO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Everybody lies about plastic surgery. Who wants to tell people you`re doing that? You go that route, you`re not going to get anywhere. You`re going to lose the case, Nancy.

GRACE: Well, to me, it really doesn`t matter one way or the other. But if I were doing a documentary, I would try to be honest. I mean, since you are doing the documentary. All that aside, I think the most damaging thing, Joe, is him all snugged up to this little by.

EPISCOPO: No, I think it illustrates that he`s strange. You know, pedophiles that I have represented never said to me, "I like sharing my bed with little boys." I just never hear that kind of thing from my own clients.

He`s strange. And that`s the whole idea about this case. If they can get across the fact that he`s strange, then they can get around the idea that, oh, he must be a pedophile.

OSHINS: Nancy, Joe`s on to something. Because if you put in context this pop icon, and what he`s done, and how his life has been lived, and how he`s lived it, I think he comes across different contextually. I really do.

GRACE: All right, Jane Velez-Mitchell, are you seeing the strange defense -- look, I agree. He is strange.

But, listen, to me, still -- there you go. Thank you, Elizabeth, for reminding me of that mental image.

But, Jane, how far can strange go? I mean, it`s OK to have a bunch of plastic surgery. It`s OK to live in a fantasy land. It`s OK, I guess, for a 45-year-old man to climb up in a tree and sit there all day wishing. Fine, if he can afford not to work. But the sleeping with the kids thing? No.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: How far can strange go? That might be the ultimate question in this case. Is he an innocent eccentric or is it sinister and diabolical? And it really is depending on how you`re viewing it, what set of glasses you`re looking at all of this through.

And when I watched the documentary again, some of the things seemed a little sinister that I hadn`t noticed the first time around. For example, there`s a portrait of Michael Jackson surrounded by these cherubs, these angels, and he`s sort of naked from the waist up anyway. That looked bizarre to me.

GRACE: I`m a little more worried about the child porn, Jane. Forget the mural. I`m worried about the child porn.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK, well, let me -- let me tell you what Mesereau did to try to explain away the child porn. He admitted today in court, he said, yep, Michael Jackson likes to look at girlie magazines and sends his assistants to the local store to get those girlie magazines.

But these kids broke in, he said, and got a hold of them. And Michael Jackson grabbed these magazines and put them in a locked briefcase. He did the same thing with the alcohol. He claimed these kids were out of control and breaking into liquor cabinets and getting a hold of the alcohol.

GRACE: Jane, Jane, Jane, child porn. I`m not talking about girlie magazines. Is there evidence that there is child porn?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, barely legal hardcore. You do the math. I mean, that says it right there. Those were some of the titles that the prosecution mentioned of magazines they said they found at Neverland.

DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: But I think that a very interesting point is that many pedophiles will go to a great extent to hide their abnormalities. So they won`t say, "You know, I like sleeping in bed with children. And by the way, I love creating a whole wonderful world for children."

GRACE: I can`t believe you people are sucked into this.

LUDWIG: No, it`s true, Nancy. And if you look at what is...

GRACE: He`s sleeping with nine-year-old boys. Just...

EPISCOPO: Yes, but, he didn`t say he was sleeping with them. He said he was sharing his bed.

OSHINS: It`s sharing his bed, not sleeping with them.

GRACE: Guys, guys, guys, the one little brother, tell me if I`m wrong, Jane Velez-Mitchell, says he observed Jackson masturbating his brother at the same time. Jane, is that true?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. That`s what he said. That`s what this young boy, the younger brother of the accuser, is going to apparently get on the witness stand and say. And I think you`ve hit the nail on the head. It all boils down to what these two kids have to say...

GRACE: Well, what about these...

(CROSSTALK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... when they take the stand and how credible they are.

GRACE: What about the other counts? Yes, this kid falls apart on the stand, the case is over. If he`s lying, there is no case. But what about the stewardesses? There were several of them that say they observed Jackson giving this kid wine.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: They`re going to be taking the stand very soon. They are on the witness list and they should be coming up in a couple of days. So we could see the prosecution get some big momentum in the next couple of days. Right now, it seem likes the defense has quite a bit of momentum even though it`s the opening of the prosecution`s case.

GRACE: Well, look, didn`t you see "Sideways"? "Barely Legal" is not child porn. It is grown women dressed up to look like little girls. So that is not child porn, Jane. I need to give you a porn update. "Barely Legal," not child porn, OK?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thank you for that.

GRACE: Yes.

Robi, what were you saying?

LUDWIG: Yes, I mean, I was just going to say that, you know, we don`t apply the same standards to Michael Jackson as we do to everybody else. And the question is...

GRACE: Maybe you don`t, but I think the jury should.

LUDWIG: Well, maybe the jury will and maybe the jury won`t. And you have to remember the other person who`s making these sinister observations has the same mother as the child who was the victim. So it`s the brother. He also...

GRACE: OK, what about the other two alleged accusers? Are they lying?

LUDWIG: They accused him of sexual -- something sexual or...

GRACE: Yes.

LUDWIG: OK, OK.

GRACE: The $20 million settlement, Joe, and the $2 point-something- million dollar settlement. I think there`s a good possibility Judge Melville will allow these in. What do you say to that?

EPISCOPO: Well, it`s never been litigated. Nobody`s been cross- examined. We really don`t know what happened. And, you know, sometimes a wealthy movie star or a wealthy personality will pay a huge sum of money to keep things quiet. Didn`t that just happen on FOX?

GRACE: Joe, Joe, one of these kids could describe Jackson`s penis. Please.

EPISCOPO: So?

GRACE: Do you ever get tired of being an apologist?

EPISCOPO: Hey, look, wait a minute. So? You saw somebody naked. That`s a crime?

GRACE: Why? Why would you see Jackson without his pants on?

EPISCOPO: Well, maybe he was going to the bathroom. Maybe he was coming back from the shower. You`d think, I mean...

GRACE: OK, yes, yes. You hold that thought. OK, you hold that thought. Thank you, Joe Episcopo.

Everybody, a quick break.

Tonight, in other jurisdictions, police in Corvallis, Oregon, need our help. On the morning of May 24th, 2004, Brooke Wilberger -- take a look -- 20-year-old Brigham Young University student disappeared outside her sister`s apartment. She was wearing a hooded sweatshirt, indigo blue, with metallic lettering. Look at this. Police are looking for an identical sweatshirt. They need to do a fiber comparison. If you have one of these, if you know of one, please contact the Corvallis, Oregon, police department.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: We have guest units but whenever kids come here, they always want to stay with me. They never want to stay in the guest -- and I have never invited them in my room. They always just want to stay. They say, "Can I stay with you tonight?" I go, if it`s OK with your parents, yes, you can.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: OK, that was the clip from the ABC version of the Bashir BBC documentary on Michael Jackson.

And Jane Velez-Mitchell, he is the one that enlisted this documentary, right?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Are you saying Michael Jackson? Well, the way it came out in court today is that Martin Bashir had used his connection, having had interviewed Princess Diana, to get to Michael Jackson and proposed, according to the defense, anyway, to do some beautiful look at his work with children. And the defense argued that then he turned it around and turned it into a hatchet job.

GRACE: Joe Episcopo, you know, our founding fathers put in the Constitution that we are protected from the tyranny of the government, if there is any. You can`t torture someone, coerce them, into giving a statement. But I don`t think Thomas Jefferson ever envisioned Martin Bashir and the BBC documentary. Can`t protect Jackson from his own doing.

EPISCOPO: I don`t think so. I don`t think it`s a confession. I don`t think it`s an admission. I think it`s a look at the way he thinks and the way he acts. It`s strange to us -- yes, it is -- but it`s not child molestation.

GRACE: So you`re going with the strange defense. OK, he`s strange.

EPISCOPO: That`s what it is.

GRACE: But, jury, it`s normal for a 45-year-old man to sleep with nine-year-old boys. Okay, fine, if that`s your defense, I will go with that.

Hey, Jane Velez...

EPISCOPO: Well, you know, there`s room for other reasonable doubt here, too. I mean, let`s face it. The accusers are not going to come -- they`re going to come across like snitches in a jail case, you know, when the snitches come forward. They`re going to be chopped up.

GRACE: Possibly the mother, but, Jason Oshins, I don`t see an attack on a young cancer patient credibility going that far...

OSHINS: Why not?

GRACE: ... but maybe on the mom.

OSHINS: I`ll tell you what. I think it`s going to come. I think it`s going to come on the entire family that this was some sort of organized, salacious scheme to get her involved and dealing with this. That`s what I think.

GRACE: OK, what about the other two victims, if they come in?

OSHINS: Well, I think...

(CROSSTALK)

OSHINS: You`re talking about the original one on the jury settlement?

GRACE: `93, $20 million and a later one for $2.5 million.

OSHINS: He could be subpoenaed, but he doesn`t have to testify at this. He does not have to testify.

GRACE: The law has changed in California.

OSHINS: Has it?

GRACE: The law has changed as a result -- Jane Velez-Mitchell, isn`t that correct that, after the `93 case, the law in California was actually changed so that, even if there was a big civil settlement, the prosecution can still force the victim to go forward?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think the bottom line is that, at the end of the day, if somebody doesn`t want to talk about their alleged molestations, it`s very hard to enforce them and force it and force them. I mean, what are going to do? Throw somebody who is purportedly a victim into jail?

But I spoke to the uncle of this `93 accuser, who is here at the courthouse, and he says he believes, even though he hasn`t spoken with his nephew, that his nephew will ultimately, if it`s allowed in, get up and tell his story. And I think that`s the key to this whole case. If they get these prior alleged bad acts in and there are similarities and commonalities with this current case, that is going to be devastating for Michael Jackson. I think it could well hinge on that.

GRACE: I think you are right. Because as Oshins and Episcopo say, there is going to be a massive credibility attack on the boy, on his brother, on the mother. I don`t know if they can survive that.

Very quickly...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s already started.

GRACE: ... did Mesereau actually tell the jury that Jackson would take the stand?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: He hinted at it three times. He didn`t say, "Michael Jackson will take the stand." But he said, "You will hear from Michael Jackson," words to that effect, over and over. So you get the sense that, if he`s promising something that he plans to deliver, it looks like Michael Jackson may well take the stand.

It is too early to tell how this is going to go. Anybody who would predict it at this point, I think, is a fool. I think it was good day for the defense in that Tom Mesereau is a brilliant attorney and he took...

GRACE: He is.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... a situation that should have been a banner day for the prosecution with this documentary and managed to spin it around. And, I tell you, if I was ever in trouble, he would be the first person I would call. He is a top-flight attorney.

GRACE: Robi?

LUDWIG: You know, I think, if I were the prosecution, I would say, "Hey, listen. Just because you feel like you know Michael Jackson, that doesn`t mean that he`s innocent. Just because you saw him as a little boy, there are people in our family that we feel that we know that are committing incest every single day." To just jolt the jury and remind them, just because we feel we know somebody and that we feel that we like them, it doesn`t mean that they aren`t engaging in very serious elicit acts.

GRACE: What about the defense?

LUDWIG: If I were the defense, I would say, "Hey, listen. He is a famous guy who has a vulnerability and a target. And there are people that go after the famous all the time that are sick, and if you don`t know how to protect yourself, you can be a victim."

GRACE: Hey, everybody. We`ve heard that the Bashir documentary was basically on the stand today. But even though there was a gag order, Michael Jackson was allowed to speak out on his own Web site. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: In the last few weeks, a large amount of ugly, malicious information has been released into the media about me. Apparently, this information was leaked through transcripts in a grand jury proceeding where neither my lawyers nor I ever appeared. The information is disgusting and false.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Jane Velez-Mitchell, was the jury questioned as to whether or not they had visited Jackson`s Web site?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No. They were not questioned about that. But they were questioned extensively as to whether or not they had seen Michael Jackson`s statements, his interview with Geraldo, his interview with Ed Bradley of "60 Minutes."

Most of them said they hadn`t really paid attention to all of that, that it was all sort of a blur and they really expressed distaste for all of those comments in the news media in general.

I think the impression I got from this jury in general, all of the people who were perspective jurors, in fact, is that, for the most part, they`re going to take this very seriously. They`re going to be fair. They have a tremendous amount of integrity. They are listening. They are taking it as their civic duty, and I think they`re going to try to do the right thing.

GRACE: Jane, Jane, Jane, I want to try to focus on what was actually said in court today. Did Mesereau state that Jackson was paying the mother`s bills? What bills?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, basically his whole point was that this conspiracy that goes over approximately a couple of months, during this time, the mother had extensive opportunity he said to basically call 911 or ask somebody else to...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Was he paying her bills? Was he paying her bills?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, apparently, he said more than $3,000 yesterday was paid by Michael Jackson for her quote, unquote, "spending sprees," buying clothes. Today, he talked about a body wax where she was left for a couple of hours and she could have called the cops, he says. I mean, this is one side of the story.

The prosecution has to come out strong and has to give their side of the story. This is their case in chief, and they have to, I think, get very aggressive about telling their side.

GRACE: Guys, we are taking a very quick break. We`ll be right back.

But as we go to break, "Trial Tracking" on the Sarah Johnson case. Remember, she was just 16-years-old when she was charged with racking a gun on her mom and dad, murdering them both in the bedroom of their Idaho home. Well, today, Sarah Johnson`s only brother took the stand against Johnson.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATT JOHNSON, BROTHER OF SARAH JOHNSON: When the doors opened? Yes, not accessible.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ever hear your sister say that she hated your mother?

M. JOHNSON: Constantly, yes. When she got in an argument, that was kind of how the argument was ended was, "I hate you," and then she`d storm off.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I will bring you live coverage of the Sarah Johnson case tomorrow, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern on Court TV. For some of you, local news next, but we will be right back. So please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: If you are a crime victim with a story to tell, if you know of an injustice or a case that needs a spotlight, call 1-888-GRACE-01, 888- 472-2301. Or go to our Web site, CNN.com/Nancygrace.

As you all know, we here at NANCY GRACE want desperately to help find missing people. Take a look at Mary Grobe, G-R-O-B-E, 74-years-old. She disappeared from her home in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, September 27, 2003. If you have any info on Mary Grobe, call Carole Sund/Carrington Foundation, 888-813-8389. There could be a reward involved. Please help us.

Very quickly, Jane Velez-Mitchell has told us the defense has suggested three times Jackson would take the stand.

Yes, no, Joe Episcopo, would you put him on the stand?

EPISCOPO: Definitely. I think that I would put him on the stand as long as I could, have him talk as much as he can, let him go through cross- examination, do a redirect examination, and not stop.

GRACE: OK, so, in a nutshell, that`s yes. OK.

Jason?

OSHINS: I don`t know. I`ll see how the pace...

GRACE: Oh, god.

OSHINS: Come on now. You have got to see how the pace goes before you do it. Defense attorneys threaten all the time to have their clients go on the stand. They don`t do it.

GRACE: Second verse, same as the first. In other words, he`s going to wait to see how strong the state`s case is before he puts Jackson on the stand.

OSHINS: Absolutely.

GRACE: Robi?

LUDWIG: I would, because I think he presents himself as very well and he could be very convincing. So he could have a positive impact on the jury for himself.

GRACE: But what`s going to happen on cross? If he says he`s a good guy, the prosecution can then fire back with reputation evidence.

LUDWIG: Yes, but he wasn`t convicted of anything.

GRACE: So?

LUDWIG: So? I mean...

GRACE: I don`t know. OK, if you guys are OK with the $20 million settlement, fine. But I don`t know that a jury is going to agree with you all.

OSHINS: Sometimes they don`t want to...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: You all need to go home and read the nursery rhyme of the Emperor`s New Clothes, OK? And then I`ll see you later on the Jackson panel.

I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. Thank you for being with us tonight and every night, and inviting all of us into your homes.

Up next, the latest headlines from around the world. I hope you join us back here tomorrow night, 8:00 Eastern, here on NANCY GRACE.

And, until then, good night, friend.

You are taking a look at a live shot of Jessica`s home. Good night, everybody.

END


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