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CNN SATURDAY MORNING NEWS

Interview with Keith Boykin, Joshua Baker

Aired February 7, 2004 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CATHERINE CALLOWAY, CNN ANCHOR: In the nationwide battle over gay marriage, Massachusetts is on the front lines. Gay couples met with the state's governor, Mitt Romney, yesterday, to try to get him to drop his support of a constitutional amendment that would define marriage as a heterosexual union.
Now, Romney defended his position but says that he's confident the voice of the people will prevail.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. MITT ROMNEY (R), MASSACHUSETTS: I'm still a big believer in the voice of the people in democracy and in our Constitution. Doesn't mean that every time the people vote, they make the right selection. Heck, they turned me down the first time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CALLAWAY: Now, most everyone, from President Bush to your next- door neighbor, has a strong opinion on this issue. And here to discuss the gay marriage issue, with us today from New York, Keith Boykin. He's with the National Black Coalition. And also in Washington, Joshua Baker. He's from the Institute for Marriage and Public Policy.

Thank you both for being with us this morning.

KEITH BOYKIN, NATIONAL BLACK COALITION: Good to be here.

JOSHUA BAKER, INSTITUTE FOR MARRIAGE AND PUBLIC POLICY: Good morning.

CALLAWAY: You know, first I just want to get your immediate reaction to what Massachusetts did, and Keith, I'll start with you. And let's try to give everybody equal time here, because I know this is a hot issue, and you both have a lot to say about it.

But your first reaction to what the judge did in Massachusetts.

BOYKIN: Well, the Massachusetts decision was a very good decision, I think. It affirmed the principle that separate but equal is never really equal. And if you go back in history, you'll see that segregationists have tried to use that argument to justify racial discrimination in this country. And the court rejected that. It said it's not acceptable, and marriage is a basic civil right. And I think the court did the right thing. CALLAWAY: And Joshua?

BAKER: I think what the court decision did this week was to say that this is not an issue just about benefits, this is not about helping people in need, but rather, this is about redefining marriage to suit adult political agendas. And when we're dealing with political agendas, those are exactly the issues that the people of Massachusetts and the people of this country deserve the right to vote on.

CALLAWAY: OK, but we're talking about adult -- agreed, it's an adult issue. But let me ask you, Keith, what do you think about this? Is it coming down to being a moral dilemma or a social dilemma?

BOYKIN: Well, it's really neither. This is a basic civil rights issue. It's not about adult political agendas, it's not about activist judges or any of the nonsense arguments that have been raised. The truth is, all but one, that means six out of the seven of the judges in this case, were actually appointed by Republican governors, and they were appointed by Republican governors and approved by the Massachusetts legislature.

These are people who are essentially already approved by the state. This is not part of some sort of ideological agenda on the part of the judges. This is essentially them reading the constitution of their own state and deciding that this is what the law says...

CALLAWAY: Josh...

BOYKIN: ... that all human beings are deserving of equal rights.

CALLAWAY: Joshua, is this a civil rights issue?

BAKER: It's not a civil rights issue. Marriage is about all of society coming together to affirm that marriage is about providing mothers and fathers for our children. The African-American community has been increasingly speaking out and saying that the gay rights movement cannot claim the mantle of the civil rights movement, that two-thirds of African-Americans believe, just like two-thirds of all Americans believe, that marriage is the union of a man and a woman.

And this is not an issue that's related to the civil rights era, it's not...

CALLAWAY: OK, so it's not...

(CROSSTALK)

BOYKIN: I beg to differ with what you said, Josh, actually, because actually I'm African-American, I can tell you that the African-American community does support civil rights for gays and lesbians. I can tell you that African-American leaders like Julian Bond and Coretta Scott King and John Lewis and Al Sharpton and Carol Moseley Braun and Henry Lewis Gates are all very supportive of marriage equality. So I don't know where you get this notion that this is not a civil rights issue. Of course it's a civil rights issue. The U.S. Supreme Court...

BAKER: But...

BOYKIN: ... said so in 1967 in the Loving versus Virginia decision. We who are African-Americans know better than anyone about the pain and discrimination and suffering in marriage. We weren't even allowed to marry during times of slavery. And during the segregation era, we weren't allowed to marry white people because the courts didn't allow that either.

So this is a civil rights issue...

BAKER: But Keith...

BOYKIN: ... and it's important to state that clearly, Josh.

CALLAWAY: All right, Josh, I'll let you...

BAKER: But Keith, the polling...

CALLAWAY: ... respond, but let me ask you, you can respond to that, but also, should the government be defining marriage?

BAKER: To respond first to Keith's comment, is, the point is very clear that more than two-to-one margin of African-Americans believe that this is not a civil rights issue, and that marriage is the union of a man and a woman. And Keith, I was even at your press conference a couple of weeks ago where you acknowledged that racism is an issue in the gay community, and that this is not a civil rights issue that is the African-American community is unified on.

Yes, there are a few leaders outspoken on the issue, but there are also a large number of African-American leaders who are outspoken on the other side of the agenda -- other side of the issue.

BOYKIN: Well, we -- well, I'd like to know who these large numbers are, because I just mentioned some of the leading civil rights advocates in our country. The Congressional Black Caucus has been one of the most supportive demographic groups in civil rights...

CALLAWAY: I, OK...

BOYKIN: ... for gays and lesbians.

CALLAWAY: Let's move beyond the issue on who's giving what support. Let me ask you again, Joshua, do you think the government should be defining what marriage is?

BAKER: I'm sorry, thank you. I think government has to at some point define what marriage is. Marriage is a social institution which has been in our history of our society and all societies for all of history, and government has to recognize that union. We have a situation where men and women come together and their union produces children.

And government has an interest in making sure that those kids have a mom and a dad, and that the laws are structured in such a way as to provide the ideal situation for raising up the next generation and communicating the values of this generation to the next. We don't have the benefit of instinct in the human race, and it's the jobs of mothers and fathers to communicate and to train up their children.

CALLAWAY: Keith, you want to respond to that?

BOYKIN: Yes, sure. What the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court said is that first of all, there are gay and lesbian families out there too. And they have children as well. And they deserve to be treated equally and fairly. It's unfair to discriminate against those children in those families by discriminating against those parents.

So the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court basically said, If you really want to respect the rights of children, if you want to protect children, then protect their parents, who just happen to be gay and lesbian.

CALLAWAY: All right, Keith Boykin and Joshua Baker, thanks very much for being with us this morning. I know we've only touched the tip of this iceberg, but a long time we have ahead of us with this issue in Massachusetts to be settled. So I'm sure we'll have you back on again. Thank you for being with us.

BOYKIN: Thank you.

BAKER: Thank you.

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