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Saturday Morning News

The Florida Recount: Duval County Officials Prepare for Recount

Aired December 9, 2000 - 9:34 a.m. ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: All right. We've got two things going on right now -- Leon County bottom left corner, up top Duval County -- since the Florida Supreme Court on a 4-to-3 vote on Friday handed Al Gore a major victory ordering all these manual recounts to take place in the state.

This is what's happening right now. We're told in Leon County that the vote recount has begun with these 9,000 undervotes that are in boxes, have just been brought in there to the library in Tallahassee.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: The two scenes you're seeing here indicative of what is going on in perhaps as many as 62 Florida counties this morning in the wake of that Supreme Court decision, indicating that some 45,000 disputed ballots, undervotes be counted. As we said, a big victory for Al Gore, but this contest continues.

Let's listen in on Duval County as the canvassing board hears from attorneys representing both parties.

BEN KUHNE (D), ATTORNEY FOR DUVAL COUNTY: ... in practice running through its many more thousands of ballots than -- than this board has an opportunity to review manually.

The board used a flexible standard that said totality of the circumstances when it clearly appears a chad is separated from the card or, in circumstances where it's not separated from the card, the remainder of the ballot appears to reflect the same type of intent from vote to vote, and the example is -- and you may have seen this from interviews from the chairman of the canvassing board on -- on television -- where an imperfectly punched ballot was reviewed by the canvassing board, known as the indented chad or the dimpled chad, and the canvassing board saw no other evidence of that type of indentation throughout the remainder of the voting, the board determined that the intent to vote was not fully formed and provable for that presidential race and, therefore, it did not count as a vote.

On the other hand, where there was a pattern -- a repeated pattern of multiple indentations for president, for county commissioner, for judge or for a retention, that person seemed to indicate -- or evidenced by their actions -- an intent to vote and thereby that would be counted. The formula that we used for that was called the -- the intent plus, meaning looking at the particular race plus if you need to determine or discern a pattern throughout, and that seemed to offer flexibility and promote a determination that we know the voter did intend to vote.

UNIDENTIFIED CANVASSING BOARD MEMBER: Where was that done?

KUHNE: That was Palm Beach County.

UNIDENTIFIED CANVASSING BOARD MEMBER: Palm Beach.

RICK MULLANEY, DUVAL COUNTY CANVASSING BOARD: Would you mind providing to us a one-page recommendation on what you're pro -- one page on your proposed standard, plus do you have a copy of the judge's order because I'd appreciate that?

KUHNE: I can get that. I do not have that here.

MULLANEY: I asked one of the lawyers in my office to get a copy of that myself this morning because I'd like to review his order.

KUHNE: I have all that material, and I will get it to the board momentarily.

MULLANEY: Thank you very much.

KUHNE: And -- and the -- and I say that because practically that's what the board is trying to do, is determine from this ballot card did a voter intend to vote, something that a machine will never decide, an intent. That's something that the human experience and the totality of the circumstances would suggest that's the kind of formula to use.

And my last item to suggest to the board deals with the process by which we will go through this, and we are asking and suggesting from experience the following process would be efficient, time consuming, and largely non-objectionable in the sense of having observers have too much opportunity to delay the process since I think we all agree that time is very necessary here.

(CROSSTALK)

KUHNE: We do not want the process to be overly time consuming. We want to be efficient, reliable, and valid. And we suggest the following, that when the board has the segregation or aggregation of the undervotes which we believe were appropriately tabulated by machine, segregated by machine, that the board set up several counting teams, which includes a Democrat and Republican observer with an elections or clerk member to determine if there is an agreement on what that ballot cast -- did it cast a vote, not a vote, and who was the recipient of that vote?

If there is an agreement, a pie (ph) was prepared by that team of a vote for Gore-Lieberman, a vote for Bush-Cheney, or others, and I don't think the others require the kind of division that is required for the two primary simply because the court has made clear that what we're doing is deciding votes among two candidates whose separation is .001 percent of the total vote cast in the State of Florida. Second, if the two -- if the three people at the table cannot agree, then the vote -- the ballot is separated to the side and just stacked up, maybe in stacks of 10. Those ballots then would be reviewed by the canvassing board, which I would note could probably be done in a format of two canvassing board members reviewing those objected to ballots.

If there's uniformity of agreement, then the -- those two members decide. If there's a disagreement between the two members, then another member of the canvassing board could review. That would allow the canvassing board to operate in multiple teams of review.

The observers at the canvassing board should have an opportunity -- the observers at the team level should have an opportunity to announce a simple objection, object, unclear, a one-word objection, and the same should be the case when the canvassing board reviews.

I suggest that only because there are some ballots in our experience that will not be the slightest subject of disagreement. Everybody will know that it is a vote, it's not a vote, or that they'll agree to disagree. It's the ones that agree to disagree that requires slightly more examination, not quite -- perhaps not quite the examination we've seen on TV but a very totality of the circumstances of the application, and the canvassing broad observers have much of that experience in having looked at a lot of cards, and that could be very helpful and not tedious to the board.

And, finally, I would suggest...

UNIDENTIFIED CANVASSING BOARD MEMBER: Let me ask you...

KUHNE: Yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED CANVASSING BOARD MEMBER: Canvassing board observers have great experience and they're going to help us? Where are these canvassing board observers coming from?

KUHNE: Well, I can tell you that from the experience of the people who are assisting the Gore-Lieberman team, they are primarily Florida voters who have participated in -- to a large extent, not completely, but participated to a large extent...

O'BRIEN: We have been listening to Ben Kuhne, a representative of the Gore campaign, an attorney, discussing the procedure of the recount in Duval County as the Duval County canvassing board listens on, the clock above them hanging like a sword of Damacles, a deadline near of Sunday at 2:00 p.m.

And now we go to Leon County where they're just about to begin a count there at the public library. Let's listen in there.

UNIDENTIFIED LEON COUNTY OFFICIAL: We have four tables today for counting teams, two members at each table. These counting members are Circuit Court judges from Leon County, and we are honored that they could assist us in this endeavor. Also present will be partisan observers, two at each table, an official witness and counter from the court staff that will assist in this process. At each table, there...

(AUDIO GAP)

UNIDENTIFIED LEON COUNTY OFFICIAL: ... for dividing the count into Bush, Gore, other, no vote, and disputed, because, in fact, in Circuit Court, Judge Lewis has determined that he will make the final decision on any disputes at issue here. He is in charge of this process.

We are going to be distributing ballots by myself from the Dade County cartons which are in the rear of this room. I would also at this time like to welcome Supervisor of Elections David Leahy who I have been empowered by the Supreme Court to appoint as an assistant in this process, and he is my designee, and he is -- if you can't find me, you can find him. He will be here all day.

So basic ground rules. As these are paper ballots, there can be no liquids on these tables. That would be akin to having a sponge absorbing the Cokes or coffees, and we cannot have the ballots altered in that fashion. So I ask you, ladies and gentlemen, not to have coffees, Cokes, water, anything at these tables that could actually affect these ballots.

Secondly, for observers, Judge Lewis specifically stated that observers in this room will act as observers. There will be no verbal objections. Observers may take written notes. If you have any comments to make, make them in a written fashion, you may ask me at some point to address anything that you have, but you may not make comments while the counters are, in fact, counting or the judges are examining the ballots. You are here strictly in an observing fashion.

Secondly, because the judge stated that only notes will be taken of this procedure, no electronic recording devices will be allowed at the counting tables, and no microphones on the part of the media and the press present will be allowed at the counting tables either.

Also, partisan observers may stay in this room and the hallway outside this room, but if you leave this room or the hallway and leave the premises, you will not be allowed back. You may trade off. You may take breaks. But those are the ground rules for observers.

The process is ordered by the Supreme Court, requires an expeditious count, and it is held under judicial circumstances as opposed to the Chapter 102.166 protest provisions which govern the canvassing board procedures in the jurisdictions that occurred a couple of weeks ago.

I will -- again, I will be determining the boxes to be assigned to the tables. I will be doing that on a basically strict numerical basis from lowest number to highest number, and we will be counting only those undercounted ballots that have not been counted yet by the Dade County canvassing board. The standard which will be used by the judges will be the standard enunciated by the Florida Supreme Court. The judges will be looking to discern the clear intent of the voter. It is my opinion that this is a common-sense standard. Actually, it is the same standard that was utilized by the Dade County Canvassing Board in Miami-Dade. We will be using that same standard, the clear intent of the voter.

Again, if two judges cannot discern that, we have provided a category for those ballots to be placed in which the judge will examine -- the judge that I'm referring to is Judge Terry Lewis. He will examine those ballots himself for a final determination.

We will be issuing no partial numbers today and, hopefully, this process will be completed today. Judge Terry Lewis will be issuing the numbers as he gets them, and it will be his decision of when he will make that -- those certified numbers to the secretary of state's office public.

Are there any questions that anyone in here may wish to address to me? Yes, sir?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When the ballots are brought to the table, I assume we'll be told what the precinct number is for the ballots that are being brought.

UNIDENTIFIED LEON COUNTY OFFICIAL: The envelopes will have on them written the precinct that they represent.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that will be announced because -- just to make sure everyone here knows...

UNIDENTIFIED LEON COUNTY OFFICIAL: That's a good point, and if -- the individual transferring the envelop to the table when they bring it to the table, simply read the number on the envelope so that everyone will know what precinct we're dealing with.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A second related question. Will it be announced how many undervotes are in that precinct, in other words how many envelopes -- how many undervotes or how many ballots were in the envelope that are being counted?

UNIDENTIFIED LEON COUNTY OFFICIAL: We -- that number is written on -- that number is also written on the envelope.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can that be announced as the envelopes are...

UNIDENTIFIED LEON COUNTY OFFICIAL: It can -- well, had -- first off, it may be announced, but, in fact, we are going to verify it. One member of the team that is sitting at the table is a counter to confirm the number in the envelope.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Since we're not objecting, I'm -- the request that I'm making is this. Can this be done verbally so that we can...

UNIDENTIFIED LEON COUNTY OFFICIAL: That is -- that is perfectly amenable to me, a fair request so that those -- that counter or the individual transferring the envelope will have two things to do. He'll announce the precinct and the number of ballots contained within the envelope.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what -- will someone -- someone announce at the end of each precinct what the result of the final...

UNIDENTIFIED LEON COUNTY OFFICIAL: We will write that number on the envelope. Each envelope that these Bush, Gore, other, no vote, dispute will have a number written on the envelope. As they write on the envelope, please announce what the number is.

All right. (INAUDIBLE) any suggestions that you would like to -- to issue at this point? (INAUDIBLE) administer the oath would be the next step.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you very much. I would like to ask the Clerk's personnel who are assisting in this process -- and there are a number of them in this room -- if you would please stand. Some of you already are standing. Could you raise your right hand? Repeat after me.

I swear or affirm...

CLERK'S PERSONNEL: I swear or affirm...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... that I will truthfully and faithfully carry out...

CLERK'S PERSONNEL: ... that I will truthfully and faithfully carry out...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... the duties assigned to me...

CLERK'S PERSONNEL: ... the duties assigned to me...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... by the supervisor of elections ...

CLERK'S PERSONNEL: ... by the supervisor of elections ...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... in performing the vote recount...

CLERK'S PERSONNEL: ... in performing the vote recount...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... as ordered by the Florida Supreme Court.

CLERK'S PERSONNEL: ... as ordered by the Florida Supreme Court.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you very much.

O'BRIEN: With the interested parties, the observers, the counters, sworn in in Leon County at the library there.

Meanwhile, on the other side of the state, Jacksonville area, in Duval County, the canvassing board is still discussing matters with attorneys representing both camps. We heard a little while ago from Gore attorney Ben Kuhne, and now the Bush representative Reginald Hoover is talking to the canvassing -- Reynold Hoover -- not Reginald, my apologies -- talking to the canvassing board being questioned. Let's listen in there.

MULLANEY: ... on when our machines actually count a vote based on either light or a hole coming through the punch card. The third way makes a manual recount of everything just counting all your votes. Second is manual review identifying undervotes, and the third is to use hardware and software to assist you.

This board has gone to that third option because we believe that it's the only practical way to even attempt it. I have no -- not only do I not have any problem with it in terms of us going there, my concern, however, is I want to have confidence in the reliability and accuracy of that method, and the mere fact that it has been done once in the history of the State of Florida doesn't necessarily inspire that confidence, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it can't be done.

Is anybody from your team present in Miami or otherwise that can provide an insight into this? The Gore-Lieberman team have some people here who were down there to address this that can provide some insight into how this will work with the hardware and software that we're talking about.

REYNOLD HOOVER (R) ATTORNEY FOR DUVAL COUNTY: Sir, I was in Palm Beach with Mr. Kuhne. We did not do the separation of the undercounts -- undervotes at that time. We did do them manually as -- as Mr. Kuhne knows, and we think that was an accurate reflection of the voter's intent. If there's a questionable ballot, it was put aside. The canvassing board did deal with it.

The other thing that you're going to have to take -- consider as well is that, in some of these instances, you'll hold up a ballot, and under the Democratic -- they're trying to get all these dimpled ballots in as votes. One of the problems is, as you'll see, the machine will count a Gore vote because it will be punched through, but, in addition to a Gore vote punched through, there will be an indentation on another candidate. Now is that going to be an overvote under their standard or not? I think that's the type of issue that we're going to have to deal with here, and -- and as far as...

MULLANEY: That -- that is the kind of issue that bothers me. I am very concerned this is being glossed over a little bit lately, over the reliability and accuracy that we're in -- we could literally be double counting votes.

HOOVER: That's right, and...

MULLANEY: We could literally be double counting votes for all we know. I -- truly, the most accurate way to deal with this undercount issue is to recount all the ballots manually, not to identify an undervote, but to simply count them all, and I think our choice here, I'm just speaking for myself, is to engage in either a manual count of all 291,000 ballots without regard to identifying a class but simply identifying who that ballot -- who that voter was voting for or, two, use this machine software and hardware technology to separate them out.

We are on track for number two, but I haven't been convinced yet -- or I still have questions as to what we're doing on number two because -- I'll say this. In Duval County -- it's unchartered territory in Duval County.

UNIDENTIFIED CANVASSING BOARD MEMBER: I -- I think that we can debate this thing all day long, but until we get somebody from Miami here who can tell us about the software, I don't -- I think we're dealing with a lot of hypotheticals, and I'm not sure we can answer all those hypotheticals right now.

HOOVER: Well -- and I don't think that what we're asking at this point is to talk about the software and the hardware. I think the bigger question is what the board has recognized, and that is the accuracy of the vote. That is paramount to our democracy and to the confidence that the people can have that we have done the right vote.

And -- and I agree with you, Mr. Mullaney, that we're going to come up with a different number, and how do we know that the number that comes out are not already -- have -- have not already been counted, and it's not a double count, that we haven't counted it once before in the ballot?

And we would submit that the only true and accurate way, which the Democrats seem to always want to be at, is -- the fair and accurate way is, if you're going to do this, you have to do a manual count of all the ballots because to put them back through a machine is going to subject these cards to additional spoliation, which we've already seen on November the 27th when we hear just looking at Precinct 7C. There were chads that fell out. Every time you handle these cards, you're liable to get chads falling out, which is going to change the vote again.

When do we know there's finality? We know there's finality when this board certified the results last week.

MULLANEY: Let -- let me ask you this because of the...

O'BRIEN: OK. We're going to step away for a moment from the Duval County Canvassing Board, an impromptu hearing in the wake of that Supreme Court ruling in Florida indicating that the recounting shall begin. We have been listening to Reynolds Hoover on the left, a gentleman to your back who is -- back to the camera, I should say, representing the Bush campaign, to the right, the attorney representing Gore, Mr. Ben Kuhne, and that is the canvassing board there asking specific questions about just how this recount will occur, particularly in light of the fact that some 5,000 undercounts, as they are called, are in a stack of 291,000 ballots. Some very difficult procedural issues given the fact that we're talking about a 2:00 p.m. Sunday deadline.

Meanwhile...

PHILLIPS: Meanwhile, in the bottom left corner of your screen, you're seeing what's happening in Leon County. The partisan observers have been sworn in, and the eight Leon County judges have begun -- it appears that they have begun to count the 9,000 Dade county undervotes. Once again, those are the ballots where a no vote was recorded for president.

We will continue to monitor both of these posts and take a quick break and be right back.

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