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Saturday Morning News

Manual Recounts Under Way in Florida

Aired December 9, 2000 - 10:00 a.m. ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Most recently we've been talking about Duval County and Leon County. This is a live shot from Duval County, where both -- where attorneys on both sides, Democratic and Republican, are discussing how the count will take place in front of the canvassing board there.

We're going to listen into the discussion.

QUESTION: Are you using manual recount to identify the undervotes, or a manual review to determine who the ballot was cast for?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, first of all...

QUESTION: What do you mean by manual recount? Of what? To determine what?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First of all, I think the court has asked us to do a recount of the undervotes. So our first option, obviously, would be to follow the court's order, and that is try to separate these ballots out by hand to find those manual -- by manual -- to find though undervotes. If that's not possible, then I think our fall back is that we need to then go back and do one final count of Duval County, and that's the end of it.

QUESTION: And the one final count would be manual?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's right.

QUESTION: Let me go back to the question I asked about 10 minutes then, because can you explain to me how we are going get that done within the time frame we have?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're not.

QUESTION: Right, that's what I thought.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would also add that unlike Miami-Dade and Palm Beach County, where they had these trained observers, we don't have that. And we're going to need some time if we're going to train and we're going to go through this counting process. Let's get beyond just trying to figure out how to separate the ballots. And we think that that is a significant issue and a significant challenge to this board. And in the sake of we don't want to compromise the integrity of the ballots or the integrity of the vote for the sake of expedience.

We can do it very fast, and we can do it as quick as you want to to try to make a deadline. But then, once we find out that we did it wrong or there was a mistake, then we're in a worse shape and we have to go back. And we would submit that we need to make sure we understand clearly how we're proceeding here in order to make sure that we can ensure the integrity of the ballot and restore confidence in the people in the vote counts from Duval County.

Just some other issues, I think, that the Democrats raised, and that would be as to the standard. We believe that the Palm Beach County standard would be appropriate. However -- and for the most part I think we agreed with that characterization of the standard.

With regard to the chad separation on the ballot, we believe that there must be, as a general rule, two corners detached.

QUESTION: Can you also provide us with a one-page of your position?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If both of you could do that, and don't go over a page.

QUESTION: Can he explain what he meant by the two corners put -- how is that...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (OFF-MIKE) explain that.

QUESTION: And how is that different from what the other party...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think what he had said was the chad was separated from the card, is the note that I wrote down. So we just wanted to clarify the difference, that separate from the card is it should be two corners are separated. And then...

QUESTION: I'm not sure I understand what separated from the card means when you get right down to it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think the gentlemen was saying it's all the totality of the circumstances is what I heard this gentlemen say.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think Mr. Keating (ph) and I are in general agreement about the standard used in Palm Beach. They started off with one standard, they moved to another, and eventually they moved to a third standard, which ultimately was, as a general rule, a punch was not a count -- was not counted as a vote unless there were two corners of that chad detached. So it would be what's defined, I guess, as now a hanging chad.

QUESTION: So you're saying a separated chad you would define as one corner detached? Is that what you mean by separating? And what you're saying is two corners? Is that the difference?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The general rule was certainly...

PHILLIPS: All right, we're monitoring Duval County and Leon Count. Tell you a little bit about what's happening in Leon County right now, just about 10 minutes ago the partisan observers were sworn in. They were told they can make no verbal objections. They can just sit there and take notes as the eight Leon County judges have begun counting the 9,000 Dade County undervotes.

And it was made very clear at the beginning when the partisan observers were sworn in and the judges sat down that the judges are looking for the clear intent of the voter. This is a common-sense standard that was laid out before the counting took place, so that is the standard that's been set, clear intent of the voter, the same process that was used when the other votes were counted in the county. And they say that they plan to get this wrapped up by today. We'll be following that.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: And what you're looking at really is the tip of the recount iceberg, if you will, as many as 62 Florida counties now grappling with these very issues, whether to count, when to count, how to count in the wake of that dramatic Florida Supreme Court ruling. The quote of the morning, for my money, the Duval County canvassing board member asking the Republican attorney, Relend Hoover (ph), can you explain how we can get this done in the time allowed? Hoover's response, "We are not."

Let's send it back to Tallahassee. Bill Hemmer is standing by with Mike Boettcher...

BILL HEMMER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Miles.

O'BRIEN: ... and some news -- Bill.

HEMMER: Yes, Miles, two things that strike me: again, the point you just make, this is just a small sample of what's happening across the state of Florida. Only two counties here involved, Duval and Leon counties. But suffice to say there are questions being asked in more than 60 right now as to how they proceed.

The second observation that needs to be made and pointed out right now, the picture in the bottom left-hand screen is exactly what the vice president had wanted to happen for about two weeks. And outside of the courtroom, that is perhaps the biggest victory right now. The vice president needs those ballots to be held up in front of judges, held up in front of observers in order for the picture to be transmitted across the country to tell America that once again they are counting ballots and looking for votes here in the state of Florida.

As we look at those pictures, CNN's Mike Boettcher is with us right now.

And, Mike, we mentioned just two of possibly more than 60 with this, and you have some news on how the counties right now are scrambling in different parts of Florida.

MIKE BOETTCHER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well I just spoke to Clay Roberts, who's the head of the division of elections here, and he was walking down the sidewalk rapidly. And I stopped him, and I said, where are you going? He said, I'm going down to the library where they're counting looking for Terre Cass, the court administrator. He said, I'm being bombarded by all these other counties asking, we're here, what do we do?

And he said, since I'm a party to the lawsuits, one of the three state election commissioners, I work for Katherine Harris, he said, I can't be involved in this. So he is walking over to the library where the count is going on here in Leon County, and he is looking for Terre Cass to get her e-mail address, which he will give back to the counties and say, the court is handling this, we're not handling it because we have to stay out of this. So confusion all around the state right now.

HEMMER: So the impression I get based on the story you're relaying to us here is that there are a number of boards that are in the same situation as Duval County right on our screen right now, who are trying to get direction and guidance based on what we heard yesterday from the state Supreme Court.

BOETTCHER: Absolutely, and then there are the problems with software. How do some of these counties who have not separated out the undercount do it? And software, I am told by Clay Roberts, is coming from Miami-Dade County to some of these other counties who use the punch ballots. Those who have optical scan are going to reprogram those scanning counters so who have optical scan are going to have to reprogram those scanning counters so that they can be able to find the undercounts as well.

So it's going to take some time. They say they're going to be done here, but other counties, they might not be done by 2:00 tomorrow.

HEMMER: We should remind our viewers that Clay Roberts is one of three people here in Tallahassee, along with Katherine Harris and Bob Crawford, who certified the vote, gosh, the time's getting away from me. Was it last Sunday night?

BOETTCHER: Yes.

HEMMER: I believe it was.

BOETTCHER: I think so, yes.

HEMMER: Did he express any sort of opinion or feeling as to what happened in the state Supreme Court regarding that?

BOETTCHER: No. You know, Clay Roberts is a pretty straight- arrow, straight shooter, and he expressed no opinion about that. He just said, I can't be a party to instructing these people, because it would be seen as a conflict of interest. So he's asking the representative of Judge Lewis for her e-mail address so he can send it out to the counties and have Judge Lewis tell these counties what they're supposed to do, how they're supposed to proceed.

HEMMER: Did he describe in any detail what the e-mail questions were as to what they should do or should not do? BOETTCHER: Basically he said they're saying, we're here. What do we do?

HEMMER: OK, again, Duval County, Leon County in the split screen here. Live on CNN, as Mike was pointing out, a number counties across the state wondering how they should move from here.

We should also make note that the Bush lawyers have filed another brief this morning with Terry Lewis in circuit court here in Leon County questioning a number of things, including the standards, the procedures and also the people you see as to who is judging these ballots. In their words, according to this brief, it says, quote, the will of the voters will not be ascertained. The whim of the counters will prevail."

We'll track everything. Back now to Atlanta from more -- Miles, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right, thanks, Bill. Mike Boettcher, thank you both.

We're continuing to monitor Duval County and Leon County. Leon County, once again the partisan observers have been sworn in. The eight Leon County judges have begun to count the 9,000 Dade County undervotes. The judges are looking for clear intent of the voter, as it was described as the common-sense standard at the beginning, before the count started.

Now unlike Duval County and what they're dealing with there, Leon County says they plan to complete the count by today.

O'BRIEN: Well, the common-sense standard would tell you that's a tough, tough hill to climb.

And let's go back to Duval County, where that is exactly what the discussion is centering around. How can this be accomplish, and perhaps more importantly when might it successfully be completed?

To your left, lawyer representing the Republican side, Reynold Hoover. To your right, an attorney representing the Gore team, Ben Koon (ph). In the middle, facing us, the Duval County Canvassing Board. Jacksonville's the location.

Let's listen in.

QUESTION: ... to a different standard, which is going to subject our votes to maybe being thrown out by the federal court or Congress, which is not good for the state of Florida and it's certainly not good for Duval County.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I appreciate what you're saying, but I read what the Supreme Court said. I also listened to Judge Lewis around midnight last night. And I think that our canvassing board wants to and will follow what they have set out. So the guidance I've looked to both sides for, and I think very ably from both sides, is whatever light and assistance you can shed in complying with the requirements of law.

And I understand your concerns that any sort of a bottom line as to what exactly you are recommending or want us to do?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And as I mentioned one other time in here -- we sure have spent a lot of Fridays and Saturdays in here -- I instruct juries every week to follow the law, whether they like it or agree with it or not. And I think that's the position we're in. Whether we like it or agree with it or not, this board's going to try as we have for the past month and follow the law and do the very best we can. I think Mr. Carlucci (ph) had a...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well when somebody mentioned that we may have more contested votes and setting precedent for the future, I think I can speak on behalf of our city council here in Jacksonville, we will have different technology next time we have a vote in Jacksonville, Florida.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, Matt (ph).

QUESTION: And our time is running short, so let me...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, go ahead.

QUESTION: ... just address couple of other issues they raised with regard to the process. Notwithstanding our statements last night that we believe that these are contested votes and the board ought to be the ones that do this and we realize that that's probably kind of an impractical suggestion, we have really no objection to counting teams. However, we would want to make sure that the actual counters are county employees, that they are not volunteers from either party. And we would also say that the observers -- we could stipulate that they don't all have to be residents of Duval County, but we believe very strongly that counters need to be paid county employees and not political people brought in from either party.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: By the counters, you're talking about the person who actually handles ballot? Our intention, I think, would be to try and use supervisor of election office personnel to do that.

QUESTION: We just wanted to ensure that it was county employees who were doing the counting. Also, again, as I said, we would stipulate that the observers don't have to be from Duval County.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think what we had discussed was only employees of the supervisor of elections office holding the ballots. And the employee...

O'BRIEN: All right, we're going to step away from the Duval County Canvassing Board meeting, as they try to hammer out the details of the recount there. We should tell you that in Leon County, which is in the lower left portion of your screen, the count is under way. The ballots there are the Miami-Dade ballots, 9,000 of them in all that are in dispute, so-called undervotes for president of the United States.

Meanwhile, the Gore campaign had a deadline this morning, and the place they needed to be was the U.S. Supreme Court in order to respond to the Bush motion there, the effort there to stop what you are witnessing right now.

CNN's Bob Franken is at a familiar perch, the steps of the U.S. Supreme Court, with more on that -- Bob.

BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And this will not surprise you, Miles. The Gore campaign oppose the efforts by the Bush campaign to stop the recount.

Let me read to you from their reply brief, which was just filed moments ago. Talking about the bush campaign they say:

"Their surprising assertion is that a candidate for public office can be irreparably harmed by the process of discerning and tabulating the will of the voters. This suggestion is contrary to established law, the U.S. Constitution and basic principals of the Constitution," one of which by the way, allows people like the man standing off to the side to make as much noise as he wants to under First Amendments privileges.

They go on to say, however, "A halt in the vote-count process can serve only to delay ultimate resolution of the election contest," and they are filing their claims the Gore reply brief, because the Bush campaign's underlying legal claims lack merit. So there have you it, not a surprising argument. Now people are going to wait to see if there's a further response from the Bush campaign, any other people who want to file briefs. And then this is a matter that will be up to five justice of the Supreme Court. Do they want to in fact to say that there has to be temporary order put out because there is a possibility, a good possibility, that the Bush arguments would prevail when there's an actual hearing?

And if there is a hearing, of course, it would have to come very quickly. One of the things that we have to note here is that depending on how the ruling goes here, the Supreme Court could be the last word. If they, in fact, rule that the Florida state Supreme Court acted erroneously, for all practical purposes the matter would be over, the Florida state Supreme Court action would be reversed, there would be no hand count. It would appear that George W. Bush then would be declared the winner of Florida and the presidential election.

If this U.S. Supreme Court would act in the opposite way, then we get into that term uncharted territory with a good possibility this could end up being decided by the U.S. Congress -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: Well, Bob, before you get away here, let me ask you this: If there is, whatever ruling comes down from the U.S. Supreme Court, on what basis of federal law will it hinge?

FRANKEN: Well, the arguments that the Bush campaign raised are really the constitutional arguments. And by now we've all become familiar with those arguments, the Article II argument that the Florida state Supreme Court acted contrary to the legislative intent that the U.S. Constitution, according to the Bush lawyers, demands. And also, by doing things the way that they have, the people of Florida are not being treated the same. And that would be a violation, say the Bush lawyers, of the 14th Amendment, the equal protection clause of the Constitution.

O'BRIEN: CNN's Bob Franken at the Supreme Court standing by. We will be checking in with him all throughout the morning, all throughout the day, through the weekend, for that matter.

PHILLIPS: And we're continuing to follow Leon County and Duval County. Both of those post we are monitoring right now. Bottom left corner is Leon County, and that is where the observers have been sworn in, as the eight Leon County judges are counting the 9,000 Dade County undervotes right now. And then in the top right corner, Duval County, where the Democratic and Republican lawyers stand before the Duval County Canvassing Board trying to hammer out how it will go about counting the undervotes in that county.

We're going to listen again to Duval County once again.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... time is important.

And second, to the extent that the board deems it appropriate to revisit or go behind the Supreme Court decision as we think that our adversaries are suggesting, the Supreme Court made its decision. It instructed what is to do be done, although in general format. and there's going to be enough work to be done counting what is directed to be counted. We don't believe there's any necessity to count something else simply because it would raise additional issues of how many more counts are going to take place. We think that's unnecessary, and we would urge the board to move quickly with this batch, and we will have our papers to the board very quickly.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can tell you -- both of you gentlemen at one time or another suggested different methods of recounting other votes. I'm speaking for myself, at this point, I just don't think it's likely we're going to recount the recounted, recounted votes. So...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your Honor...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To the extent that -- I don't know what the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) of these absentee ballots is that he's pointing out. I thought it was a couple hundred.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Five hundred twenty-seven.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Five hundred twenty-seven. To the extent that that is doable...

O'BRIEN: All right, we continue to listen in on Duval County as attorneys representing both camps discuss the order of business in Duval County, Jacksonville, with about 27 hours and 40 minutes to go before the deadline.

The count has begun in Leon County. These are votes from Miami- Dade County that were tracked up this past week, 9,000 of them in all, so-called undervotes. Judges there are doing the counting, and we are watching it as it progresses. As we say, what we are showing you here is just a representation of what is going on all across Florida, from the panhandle all the way down the peninsula, some 60 counties have these so-called undervotes. About 45,000 votes are in play now as a result of yesterday's state Supreme Court ruling. We are tracking it on all fronts.

Let's go back to Duval County and listen in to the lawyers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have to say, Judge, one thing, I think I've made it fairly clear that I'm very interested in the mechanics and in the technology. I do not want to have double counting, I don't want to have inaccuracy, I don't want a lack of reliability. And I think as board we have an obligation to understand, not to just say, oh, technology solved it. I would like to understand it. So maybe a presentation by the technical people would help us.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that's probably a good idea. What I was going to suggest is -- I mean he's going to be -- he, she, the team, whoever's doing it -- is going to be installing into the city hall annex. My suggestion would be that the presentation be made there and that if there are questions from one representative from the party, not an entire group, about how it works or if you have any questions about it, or from the board in particular about how this works, I think clearly we need to do that before we start the sorting process.

We have a general understanding of how it works, but as Mr. Mullaney said earlier, this is all new to us. We don't have this happen here. And so that's why we had to go to Miami to get the hardware and the software.

PHILLIPS: Also monitoring Duval and Leon County is our Bill Schneider, who is standing by.

And, Bill, very interesting, in Leon County, they seem pretty confident they can finish the count. However, in Duval County, they seem pretty adamant that they will not be able to finish the count -- just a sample of sort of the tension and confusion that's taking place with a number of counties today.

WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: What I think they're doing in Leon County is counting the ballots not from their own county but those that were brought up from Miami-Dade. And in Miami-Dade, they've already separated out those famous 9,000 undervotes that were not counted by the machines or inspected by the machine and the machine did not detect a presidential vote. So there's less dispute about which ballots to count.

In Duval County, they're trying to decide what standards to use and also which ballots should be counted as undervotes. So there are lots of open questions here, and we're seeing the different partisans and the agents of the court trying to decide on the standards to use.

O'BRIEN: Well meanwhile that clock is ticking right over the head there of the Duval County Canvassing Board. And time is wasting.

Bill, I know you're not an expert in the process of vote counting, but if you take a look at the sheer numbers here and the task at hand, is that deadline of tomorrow at 2:00 p.m. realistic, do you think?

SCHNEIDER: Well, they could always bring in more counters, I suppose. I notice that in Leon County they're using judges. They're supposed to be at least unimpeachable for their integrity, that's why they're on the bench.

But that deadline is important because the court really would like, the Supreme Court that ruled yesterday, would really like things done before Tuesday for the simple reason that if we have an answer, who won Florida in the popular vote, by Tuesday, then that vote can be certified, the electors will be then signed and certified and sent in -- their names sent to Washington, and they will be protected from challenge in Congress.

But if the vote is not completed by Tuesday, it can go on. But then you can have a contest with one slate of electors selected by the legislature, presumably voting for George Bush, another the result of the count. We don't know how that's going to go. And you'll have competing slates of electors to be decide by Congress. That's why that deadline is important. It will provide greater certainty and an answer, and that will take the power away, really, from the legislature, which would be, I think, under pressure to certify electors that were chosen by the popular vote.

O'BRIEN: And we keep saying the plot would thicken. That really puts the plot squarely in the molasses category, wouldn't it?

SCHNEIDER: Oh, yes. I mean, there are lots of challenges here. The Bush campaign, as we just saw with Bob Franken, is filing -- or is participating in a request that some other Republicans have initiated to just stop the recount right now, because they say that they're going to bring action in the federal court, and they want the courts to temporarily issue an emergency injunction to stop this recount from continuing. That's a hard thing to do.

I mean, we are watching it going on right now. And I think there would be a certain amount of public anger, not just from Democrats, to see people who are honestly trying to count the votes just stopped in their tracks, as if to say, we don't want to know how the people voted. But there are some very serious questions that we see being debated right here. This is democracy at its most intimate level, how do you count the votes? What's standard do you use? What counts for clear intent of the voters?

The court, the Supreme Court, yesterday said clear intent of the voters. But you know what? That's not very clear, because I think Republicans and Democrats have very different definitions of what's clear. They say it's common sense. But I think in this case there's probably Republican common sense and Democratic common sense.

O'BRIEN: And we always appreciate Bill Schneider's common sense. We will checking in with you as the day progresses.

PHILLIPS: We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back.

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